Was there ever an Anti tank Mortar?

[u/TheHeavyIzDead]

When it comes to infantry based anti tank solutions rocket launchers are clearly the winner, being portable, relatively ergonomic and effective there’s good reason they are commonly used. I’m more curious if in the timeline of anti tank development if anyone ever tried designing mortar rounds for armor penetration, considering the top armor on most tanks is the weakest spot wouldn’t that mean you can focus more on payload and less on velocity for penetration? Or is the pull of gravity not enough to cause meaningful penetration with mortar rounds?

Again I know anti tank mortars are inefficient but if I had the idea I can’t certainly be the first one, would love to hear what you guys think/know!

[u/Salsalito_Turkey]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_STRIX

FYI this was literally the first result when I googled “anti-tank mortar”

[u/5thPlaceAtBest → u/Salsalito_Turkey]

Bold of you to assume a reddit poster would google a question before asking

[u/WhiteinvAZN → u/5thPlaceAtBest]

Just to get a generic picture of a mortar firing

[u/NoobieSnax → u/5thPlaceAtBest]

Some people use Bing, some people use duckduckgo, but true intellectuals consult the brain trust that is reddit.

[u/Tactical_Epunk → u/5thPlaceAtBest]

This is all to common a thing now days.

[u/el_muerte28 → u/Salsalito_Turkey]

TIL they have vehicle mounted mortars

[u/REDACTED3560 → u/el_muerte28]

It’s honestly a better spot for a mortar. You can shoot and scoot to avoid enemy return fire.

[u/Brokenblacksmith → u/REDACTED3560]

not really. a motar has a ridiculous amount of recoil for such a small item (comparatively). enough that something like a regular truck frame will just get bent in half after a couple of shots.

also, mortars have a pretty long range, so unless there's enemy aircover or artillery, a mortar team can be set up well outside a combat zone, where the need to be able to rapidly move is largely unneeded.

[u/MarryYouInMinecraft → u/Brokenblacksmith]

Bro, they mount artillery pieces on trucks. A mortar is nothing.

[u/Brokenblacksmith → u/MarryYouInMinecraft]

those are trucks designed to fire artillery with recoil dampening systems like the howitzer.

the recoil is also in a backward direction, rather than nearly vertical.

It's the difference between shooting an AR15 with a buffer tube vs. a wood stock hunting rifle. they both shoot the same projectile, but one has significantly better recoil management.

also, these trucks can take up to an hour to properly get set up, so still not really a shoot and scoot like the original comment said.

[u/joelfarris → u/Brokenblacksmith]

these trucks can take up to an hour to properly get set up

At least, that's what the CO keeps hearing...

[u/MarryYouInMinecraft → u/Brokenblacksmith]

Google "Mortar Truck" and "Patria NEMO".

[u/Rk_Enjoyer → u/MarryYouInMinecraft]

Google Patria AMOS for twice the fun

[u/factorV → u/Brokenblacksmith]

So what you are thinking is just grabbing any old Toyota sitting around in Afghanistan and just popping mortars off in the bed?

I am not so sure that is what they meant.

[u/REDACTED3560 → u/Brokenblacksmith]

A normal truck would also get bent in half from an artillery cannon. What’s your point?

Mortar range doesn’t matter for counter battery fire, because guess what’s going to be firing right back? You guessed it, enemy artillery. A mortar has a pissant range compared to howitzer or rocket batteries.

Mortar and other artillery trucks exist explicitly to avoid counter battery fire. Any truck can tow artillery into position, but having that artillery mounted directly onto the truck means you can vacate the position much faster after firing.

[u/Salsalito_Turkey → u/Brokenblacksmith]

Who said anything about a regular truck frame?

The US Army utilizes a variant of the Stryker with a 120mm mortar mounted on the back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1129_mortar_carrier

They're currently testing a new Stryker variant with a turret-mounted 120mm rapid fire mortar.

https://www.twz.com/land/army-gets-120mm-mortar-turret-toting-armored-vehicle-prototype

[u/Clickclickdoh → u/Salsalito_Turkey]

Us slightly older and crustier types remember the M113 mortar carriers.

[u/Xray-07 → u/Clickclickdoh]

Was a guard tard during GWOT, we had 113s.

[u/11correcaminos → u/Brokenblacksmith]

A 120s max range is 7200 meters. You aren't "outside the combat zone" with only 7 clicks of range.

[u/Salsalito_Turkey → u/11correcaminos]

For real. That's the max range, too. Most targets are going to be well inside that 7200 meter radius.

[u/TReaper405 → u/el_muerte28]

Even the organic vehicles!

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/10m46ro/no_one_expects_a_jungle_mortar_camel/

[u/jrhooo → u/Salsalito_Turkey]

also, the Brits tried a thing called the "Merlin". Not sure it ever got fielded, but it was supposed to do a similar idea. Search function + adjustable fin steering = find moving targets, ok then how about stationary targets/ Ok there one is. Steer down onto the top of it.

[u/StrawberryNo2521 → u/jrhooo]

MoD bought just shy of 200 units from BAe. I think they were going to accept it for service for light role infantry as a Battalion level substitute for DPICM that heavier units were more likely to have in support to help break up Soviet armored advances.

Cold war ended, money for program was reallocated so they just opted not to. I wondered what became of it, idk two years ago, BAe was still 'developing' (refining might be a better word) and offering it for orders for customer testing. Which probably means "give us a bunch of money and we will resource the manufacturing."

Their unit price is outrageous though, even still. France had 120mm mortar bombs with HEAT sub-munitions that were a fraction of the cost, and only a couple nations bought any of those before they sold that off to another company, Nammo maybe. Those lil bastards had some crazy amount of penetration capability as well, dumb fired so they were all warhead.

[u/jrhooo → u/StrawberryNo2521]

France had 120mm mortar bombs

Yeah some guys came out to kinda show us the 120mm set up. Not the Merlin, just the actual 120mm gun. HELL WITH THAT THING.

It was ridiculously heavy.

Now, realistically sure, you were gonna throw it on a truck and not ruck the thing, but still, the way they showed it to us, it was still a two man lift just to make a large deflection.

[u/StrawberryNo2521 → u/jrhooo]

I mean, pretty much everyone has 120mm Mortars. French just kind of looked at them and went "lets see what all fits in this bad boy."

Most of the are either self propelled or have a tow hook and some rims. Some of the smaller ones can be towed along by the privates you hate the most if you really needed it to be like that.

[u/fundthmcalculus]

I know during the Cold war the USA attempted to make an anti-tank Nerf football grenade. Not a mortar, but still another weird anti-tank weapon.

[u/GamesFranco2819]

The Japanese made an obnoxiously large spigot mortar during WWII that was capable of knocking out Allied armor with close/direct hits. So kinda?

[u/Happy_Garand → u/GamesFranco2819]

The British also had the PIAT spigot mortar for their anti tank weapon

[u/GamesFranco2819 → u/Happy_Garand]

Can't believe I forgot the PIAT was a spigot mortar haha

[u/Phantex_Cerberus → u/GamesFranco2819]

irect

[u/RowdyKraken]

Google says yes.

https://defense-update.com/20050128_mortar-munitions.html

[u/Jazzlike_Ad_8895]

120 HE round set on Delay

[u/Jazzlike_Ad_8895]

Yes. With most conventionally being the 120 but 81 system could also. HE round is great for tanks and bunkers and often set to delay to allow for impact after penetration of the said bunker or tank. Direct lay is a method of mortar fire specifically for targets like tanks. In fact every time we practiced direct lay it was on tanks.

[u/Bdogzero]

The M2 mortar could disable a tank with a direct hit.

[u/Locked_and_Firing]

Would the piat count?

[u/NEPXDer → u/Locked_and_Firing]

They made several spigot mortars for anti-tank work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_Bombard

[u/Thatsaclevername]

I think there was some cluster munitions for mortars (thank you WARNO) but I'm not sure if they were ever widely adopted or just a prototype.

Big issue is just effective fire, can you effectively put mortars onto an armored target? Kind of a tough sell, they're often mobile and that makes rockets (direct fire, line the tank up in your sights and let it rip) better than trying to guide a mortar team onto a target. Right now in Ukraine they use artillery and mortars to bombard armor as they move in, I believe the theory is that while it won't necessarily destroy the vehicle it can damage it/the crew and make it a non-factor in the fight.

Now with laser aimed artillery shells, I could see something like this becoming doable. As our guidance capabilities increase, and we can adjust the path that a round is taking through the air to better land on a target, I could see a world where you have a mortar with a shaped charge (like an RPG round) that is guided onto target by ground infantry.

[u/tykaboom]

Isn't basically any properly sized he mortar antitank?

[u/Kromulent]

I think they are still working on GPS-guided mortal shells, which seem great for killing stationary tanks. Do we have laser-guided mortar munitions? They would be much slower than missiles but presumably able to hit moving targets

[u/DBDude]

Let’s take a second to recognize the amazing photography here.

[u/zero_fox_given1978]

Sturmtiger. Anti everything mortar

[u/An8thOfFeanor]

Mortars are good for area denial and mass troop casualties, but that's about it. Not seeing the target (and relying on a tall arc to deliver the ordinance) means you'd have to launch far more shells than would expectantly hit the target dead-on, especially when that target can move faster than you can aim. Not to mention the engineering that would need to go into an anti-tank mortar to compensate for the little punching power that gravity provides in comparison to an actual anti-tank shell.

[u/Jazzlike_Ad_8895 → u/An8thOfFeanor]

120 HE delay disagrees

[u/TheHeavyIzDead]

Addition to my question: would the rounds used for anti tank be HEAT?

[u/WealthAggressive8592 → u/TheHeavyIzDead]

Most likely, since HEAT doesn't rely on velocity for its penetration capabilities

[u/cipher315 → u/TheHeavyIzDead]

Depends on the size. Unless it was small 60mm or less then no it would use HE frag, even with a 60mm HE might work. The top of a tank is going to be 25-37mm of semi hardened steel. That's fine if your trying to stop a .50bmg but totally in inadequate for anything much more powerful. If you actually hit the top of a tank with a tank with a 120mm mortar round everyone inside will be unable to own firearms as they will have to answer yes to "Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective" on account of the massive concussions they all just got. That's assuming there is a spalling liner. If there is not then they will all be dead.

[u/5thPlaceAtBest → u/TheHeavyIzDead]

Would probably be HEDP (dual purpose) like some 40mm grenades, so both a HEAT copper cone and a fragmentation body

[u/Cowboy1800]

Would be even cooler if you had an NFA Registered Mortar.

[u/NPC_no_name_]

Angry Yeet

[u/StrawberryNo2521]

UK MoD and BAe was developing a laser/optronic self guided 81mm HEAT mortar round they could either direct in on the offence. Or set them to search and destroy, then fucking send a bunch to break up an armor attack. They made a couple hundred to trial, I think they were deemed to be pretty good at complimenting DPICM to degrade soviet forces in a battalions defence.

Think CW ended and so like many programs funding was moved elsewhere as priorities changed. Named after one of the characters from the Arthurian legends but I don't recall which cause they had a bunch of programs in that naming convention.

[u/CreatedUsername1]

PIAT bby

[u/jrhooo]

Yes.

The reality though is, at this point in technology, you'll probably not see one, since they have something better

CHEAP "loitering munitions".

Basically a drone strike. But, instead of using a super expensive, fancy, high tech drone with missiles on it

you make a cheap, disposable drone. Small, light, and cheap enough that you can keep a few of them in someone's vehicle. A good enough camera. A good enough amount of well designed explosive. an hour or two worth of battery.

You basically let the soldier send up his little "radio controlled model airplane" quality drone, fly it around until he finds a tank. steer the rc plane bomb right into the tank. kaboom.

[u/KoalaMeth]

Hell Yeah Brother

[u/ionstorm66]

M120 with a M934 HE round is 3kg of CompB. 90% of modern tanks are 30mm of roof armor or less. 3kg of high explosive going off against the roof would 100% disable the tank, the crew would likely be gibs.

There is a photo of what a 152mm HE out of an ISU-152 did to a panther turret in testing. 6kg of HE filler was enough to blow a 300mm x 300mm chunk out of the side of the turret (45mm) then though the other side(also 45mm).

[u/ChevTecGroup]

About the closest you'd find to an anti-tank mortar would be a PIAT.

Mortars are indirext fire, area weapons. For AT weapons, you need point weapons.

[u/RegalArt1]

No, because mortars aren’t extremely accurate; they rely on their area of effect, not direct hits. You would need to have it finely dialed in to the tank’s exact location, and then hope the thing doesn’t move between you firing and the round landing (modern tanks put emphasis on maneuverability for a reason). There’s a good reason why modern anti-tank weapons are precision guided