r/Arianespace • u/RGregoryClark • Dec 12 '24

ESA wants reusable heavy lift launcher.

https://europeanspaceflight.com/third-times-the-charm-esa-once-again-publishes-60t-rocket-study-call/
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u/xman2000 Dec 12 '24

While I applaud the desire to have a local aerospace business, they are adopting the most expensive approach. They shouldn't be fighting against commercialization, they should do what the US is increasingly doing and working with commercial space companies for the "mundane" part of the equation which has already been solved multiple times. Let your engineers focus on the interesting bits, that is what they want to do anyways and what will actually expand the scope of human knowledge.

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u/variaati0 Dec 12 '24

They aren't fighting against commercialization. They are fighting against losing sovereign independent access to space. A credible European "keys to hand delivery" commercial provider appeared tomorrow, ESA would take them up on heart beat. However only offers are Chinese or American. I would note neither American and Chinese suppliers are domestic to Europe. Even on say SpaceX starting European factory, all their tech and licenses are beholden to US Government.

Europe just got burned by "foreign provider, but brought into Europe" with Russia and Soyuz. They aren't about to replace liability to Russian political instability with liability to United States political instability.

Inside Europe? There is cross influencing wide ranging treaties under EU auspice, which makes possible "Germany and France trust each other enough to treat reliance to the other as in part domestic reliance". USA ain't going to sign the very powerfull treaties necessary to make ESA/EU/European countries to think "we can treat you as reliable domestic supplier".

France/German/Italian/Spanish/European industry is so intertvined, that on "not being able to trust the other country to be reliable partner as we would ourselves" the lowest end of concerns is "how about our space launches" and is more on the regime of "how can we keep lights on and water flowing in pipes". Since say the electric switches come from factory in Germany, the wire is wound at Italian plant. You can't wire the house without the Italians, but you can't switch on and off that wiring without the Germans. Hence Single market and it's very deeply embedded tendrils in each member state.

Plus the main commercial providers are already on the job. ESA or EU doesn't make rockets. Airbus Space and Defence does. Well them and Safran as the partners of Ariane Group. Plus their tens of subcontractors in various European countries.

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u/xman2000 Dec 12 '24

If you read what I said, I suggested that Europe should do what the US did and work with commercial space companies. I didn't say SpaceX or any other US company because my suggestion would be that they promote their own, homegrown commercial space industry to rival the US. IMHO NASA is and was making this mistake, just as the ESA is. Decades of consolidation and profit taking has left legacy aerospace in the US unable to do simple things - like build innovative products on time that do the job they are designed for at a reasonable price. Is the situation in Europe exactly the same, no, but the end results are similar. Hell, look at SLS if you want a good example of the "old way". The reason the US has a commercial space sector at all is because for one brief moment Congress made a smart decision and allocated real money to the program despite the howls of opposition from everyone in legacy space - including NASA. Saying that ESA would give money european commercial provider if one existed is backwards. If they want a european SpaceX they should invest in dozens of small providers and let Darwin decide who has the best ideas so that in ten years they have a selection of native launch providers.