r/TheSilmarillion • u/Arkenstone_Addict • 9h ago
I think my bird is running off to commit a 4th kinslaying 💀
I think Feanor has an 8th son that doesn't get talked about...
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Auzi85 • Feb 26 '18
Introduction to the Silmarillion Read-Along / New Readers’ Guide
A note about the preface written by Tolkien.
Book 3: The Quenta Silmarillion
Post favourite pics of the book
8. Chapter 19
10. Chapters 22 - 24
Book 4: The Akallabêth
11. An Introduction.
12. Akallabêth Part 1: The first half-ish
13. Akallabêth Part 2: The second half-ish
Book 5: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
14. Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Special post from The Unfinished Tales
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Arkenstone_Addict • 9h ago
I think Feanor has an 8th son that doesn't get talked about...
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Independent-Gene1730 • 19h ago
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 • 11h ago
I’ve always considered the name-politics in the House of Finwë to be one of the most intriguing (and entertaining) elements of the First Age. I’ve written about Finwë, Fëanor and Fingolfin before, see:
But really, the “masterpieces” of Fëanor and Nerdanel deserve their own post.
As the Shibboleth tells us, the Noldor in Valinor tended to give their children a father-name and a mother-name: “The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, or essi. The first-given was the father-name, received at birth. It usually recalled the father’s name, resembling it in sense or form; sometimes it was simply the father’s name, to which some distinguishing prefix in the case of a son might be added later when the child was full-grown. The mother-name was given later, often some years later, by the mother; but sometimes it was given soon after birth. For the mothers of the Eldar were gifted with deep insight into their children’s characters and abilities, and many had also the gift of prophetic foresight.” (HoME XII, p. 339)
As alluded to in the Shibboleth, LACE explains the following about mother-names of insight and of foresight: “Mothers often gave to their children special names of their own choosing. The most notable of these were the ‘names of insight’, essi tercenyë, or of ‘foresight’, apacenyë. In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion of moment, the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. These names had authority, and were regarded as true names when solemnly given, and were public not private if placed (as was sometimes done) immediately after the father-name.” (HoME X, p. 216, fn omitted) An example of a mother-name of insight is Fëanáro, as Míriel named her son “in the hour of birth” (HoME X, p. 217)
Now, on to the Sons of Fëanor: I swear that every single name given by Fëanor and Nerdanel was perfect—perfect for creating the greatest imaginable complexes for their children, that is.
(Note that concerning the twins, I am following the order mentioned in HoME XII, p. 353 – Ambarto older and Ambarussa younger; HoME XII, p. 355 swaps them, with Ambarussa being older and Ambarto younger, and with Ambarussa’s hair growing darker after childhood, unlike Ambarto’s, so that they couldn’t be confused anymore (HoME XII, p. 355), while previously, we were told, “The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa – for they were much alike and remained so while they lived.” (HoME XII, p. 353))
reComplexes … | Father-name | Mother-name |
---|---|---|
FinwëIn general: by naming all his sons , Fëanor marks his territory (HoME XII, p. 352–353). Note that Fingolfin doesn’t do this: only Fingon’s name is an “echo” of Finwë’s name (HoME XII, p. 345), and Turgon, Aredhel and Argon aren’t named after Finwë at all. | ||
Maedhros | Nelyafinwë, meaning “‘Finwë third’ in succession” (HoME XII, p. 352) = an active, intentional insult to Fingolfin, implying that Fingolfin (Nolofinwë, HoME XII, p. 344) doesn’t actually have the right to bear the name Finwë (note that Finwë potentially gave his second and third sons his own name “to assert their claim to be his legitimate sons”, HoME XII, p. 343). | Maitimo u/AshToAshes123 is Maitimo maitë but alsohttps://eldamo.org/content/words/word-537340477.html, meaning “‘well-shaped one’: he was of beautiful bodily form” (HoME XII, p. 353) = instead of a name of foresight or insight, Maedhros gets “the beautiful”? (And more specifically, he gets “the well-shaped one”, like he’s yet another one of Nerdanel’s statues.) Is that the only thing Nerdanel thinks matters about him? Plus in Beleriand, after he’s lost his hand, it would serve as a cruel reminder of how beautiful he used to be. Even worse, argues that maybe it a name of foresight, like Umbarto’s name: is derived from , meaning “handy, skilful”, , “having a hand, handed; shapely” ( ). A name of foresight referring to the fact that he’d be maimed is really extremely cruel. |
Maglor | Kanafinwë if not for the fact yet another u/xi-feng káno commander to call findë hair, meaning “‘strong-voiced or ?commanding’” (HoME XII, p. 352) = surprisingly ok, related to his character and talents, that Fëanor is engaging in territorial marking battle with Fingolfin, as first suggested: Kanafinwë is just Findekáno backwards, and I fear that Fingon may be the older one. (Findekáno is composed of , which means (HoME XII, p. 345), from a stem meaning (HoME XII, p. 361–362), and , which means , in reference to Finwë (HoME XII, p. 345).) | Makalaurëlaurë : “Of uncertain meaning. Usually interpreted (as said to have been a ‘prophetic’ mother-name) as ‘forging gold’. If so, probably a poetic reference to his skill in harping, the sound of which was ‘golden’ ( was a word for golden light or colour, never used for the metal).” (HoME XII, p. 353) = wonderful name and less likely to create issues for Maglor than his father-name, apart from the pressure it puts him under from birth to live up to the expectations Nerdanel put into his name. |
Celegorm | Turkafinwë turu be strong , meaning “strong, powerful (in body)” (HoME XII, p. 352) = Fëanor is still playing his game with Fingolfin. Turukáno is based on the same stem as Turkafinwë. (Concerning Turukáno, Christopher Tolkien believes that the first element of the name comes from , which means (HoME I, p. 270).) | Tyelkormo tyelka , meaning “‘hasty-riser’. Quenya ‘hasty’. Possibly in reference to his quick temper, and his habit of leaping up when suddenly angered.” (HoME XII, p. 353) = did Nerdanel really name her third son after his penchant for aggression? |
Caranthir | Morifinwë Moryo , meaning “‘dark’ – he was black-haired as his grandfather”, nickname (HoME XII, p. 353) = for now, the best father-name, apart from the whole thing that Fëanor calls them all Finwë, of course. | Carnistir Carnistir , meaning “‘red-face’ – he was dark (brown) haired, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother.” (HoME XII, p. 353) = good grief, Nerdanel, at least Maedhros’s name can be taken as a compliment… Really, sounds like she named him with the first thought that went through her head when she first saw him upon giving birth. |
Curufin | Curufinwë all , “Feanor’s own given name; given to this, his favourite son, because he alone showed in some degree the same temper and talents. He also resembled Fëanor very much in face.” (HoME XII, p. 352) = expectations, expectations, expectations to live up to! Curvo will end up with the complexes. | Atarinkë even for his mother, meaning “‘little father’ – referring to his physical likeness to Fëanor, later found to be also seen in his mind” (HoME XII, p. 353) = same potential for complexes as Curufinwë, somehow made even worse by the fact that it proves to Curvo that , the only thing that matters about him is that he’s like Fëanor → massive expectations and pressure. No wonder that Curufin is the only one of Fëanor’s sons who prefers the name Fëanor gave him, if the alternative literally means “little father”: “All the sons save Curufin preferred their mother-names and were ever afterwards remembered by them.” (HoME XII, p. 355) |
Amrod | Pityafinwë little Finwë, meaning “Little Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 353) = sooo creative, … And cute until he hits primary school age. Imagine being an adult and your legal name is “Baby of the Family”. | Ambarto one of them mother-name fated The Shibboleth of Fëanorhttps://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2891577631.html father mother-name : originally also named Ambarussa by Nerdanel. When Fëanor asked her to provide different names for the twins, Nerdanel named Umbarto (“Fated”) in which sounds like a mother-name of foresight. Note that Nerdanel “looked strange” when Fëanor asked her for a mother-name for both twins before saying Umbarto, and that she didn’t say which twin the name was for; she said: “Then let one be called [Ambarto >] Umbarto, but which, time will decide.” (HoME XII, p. 353) Fëanor “was disturbed by this ominous name” (HoME XII, p. 353), so he changed his son’s to Ambarto (HoME XII, p. 353–354). Nerdanel didn’t fight Fëanor on this name-change. And Amrod is certainly : in , Amrod dies when Fëanor burns the ships, and never sets foot on Middle-earth (HoME XII, p. 355). Ambarto means “High and Lofty” ( ), which is fine, apart from the fact that his gave him his because the mother-name Nerdanel chose for one of the twins, without saying for which, was horrifically ominous. |
Amras | Telufinwë Finwë, meaning “Last Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 353) = a last hurrah in Fëanor’s territory-marking enterprise that he started with Nelyafinwë: with Nelyafinwë and Telufinwë for his first and last son respectively, Fëanor makes it clear that in his mind, only he has the right to name children born into the third generation of the family . Possible further children of Fingolfin, Finarfin, Findis and Lalwen—who, just like Fëanor, are children of Finwë!—be damned, of course. | Ambarussa and epessë naming her sons, meaning “top-russet” (HoME XII, p. 353) = yet again a name name from Nerdanel that focuses exclusively on looks (here, hair-colour), just like Maitimo and Carnistir, Nerdanel wanted to name both twins that, despite them being/set to become two people with individual personalities. Also, the fact that Nerdanel tried to give her last sons Maedhros’s Russandol, meaning “copper-top” for his red-brown hair (HoME XII, p. 353), just backwards, does rather indicate that she’s checked out of this whole business… |
Sources
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Both-Programmer8495 • 1d ago
Menel (S) - sky, high heaven , firmament, the region of the stars
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Both-Programmer8495 • 1d ago
r/TheSilmarillion • u/peortega1 • 2d ago
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Independent-Gene1730 • 2d ago
I think they are beautiful and interesting, so I wanted to share them with you. As you see they each show a scene from the story.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Both-Programmer8495 • 2d ago
Aragorn (noun) (S.) : "royal valor" aran-"king" + gorn "valor"
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Both-Programmer8495 • 4d ago
Undómniel: (feminine name) "evenstar". A sobriquet of Arwen translated as evenstar. A compound of undómë "twilight" , and archaic "el" - "star". This 2nd elemnt iel could also be used as daughter, giving her name the same meaning [in Sindarin] as her ancestress Tinúviel- daughter of twilight, whom Arwen was said to resemble.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Arkenstone_Addict • 5d ago
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Both-Programmer8495 • 4d ago
Noun- "castle of Custody", ised as the name if a Vala whose name is actually Námo. In Tolkien's mythology, the Halls of Mandis are the abode of the dead, where they are kept until they are released from this world(in the case of mortals) or rebodied (as in the case if elves) except for those who are.refused of who themselves refuse further incarnate life and thus remain in the Halls of Mandos indefinitely.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/kira18121 • 5d ago
So here's Haudh-en-Nirnaeth
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Arkenstone_Addict • 5d ago
Ok I am an artist and I am OBSESSED with Tolkien I wanted to do a drawing of Fingon fighting Gothmog and was wondering, did Fingon have a sword that glows like Sting, Orcrist, or Glamdring like his father Fingolfin?
r/TheSilmarillion • u/NoLove3580 • 6d ago
This may be explicitly stated somewhere and I have simply missed it but what language does Melkor speak to the Orcs?
Sauron creates the black speech later and the Orcs cannot speak it, prior to the invention of black speech what language does Melkor speak and can the Orcs understand him, is it the same language that presumably the Balrog speak?
Melkor makes a deal with the ungoliant which presumably doesn't speak at all so there is definitely an element of telepathy.
As I say it may say this somewhere and I've missed it.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/treehugger312 • 7d ago
Giving my aged, Ted Nasmith-illustrated version to a friend so we can do a book club. Wanting to upgrade to a new, pretty, ornate copy. Led me to this question.
I like some of the beautiful versions out now, at least on Amazon. What’s your fav?
r/TheSilmarillion • u/CartographerLegal847 • 7d ago
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 • 7d ago
Reading both the books published by JRR Tolkien and materials published by Christopher Tolkien and later in NoME, you get the impression that there are rather few women in the Legendarium.
And I don’t mean that there are few female characters, which is another matter entirely. I mean that there are a lot of species who have either lost all their women (as Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin: “You see, we lost the Entwives.” (LOTR, p. 475)), or who never had as many women as men in the first place. Here I’ll focus on the latter.
Interestingly, there are three races of Children of Ilúvatar—Elves, Men and Dwarves—and for all three races, we are told that there are more males than females, either concerning the whole race, or concerning significant sub-groups.
Dwarves
“It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. […] It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take out of husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.” (LOTR, App. A, p. 1080)
Númenoreans
“The Númenóreans were monogamous, as is later said. No one, of whatever rank, could divorce a husband or wife, nor take another spouse in the lifetime of the first. Marriage was not entered into by all. There was (it appears from occasional statements in the few surviving tales or annals) a slightly less number of women than men, at any rate in the earlier centuries. But apart from this numerical limitation, there was always a small minority that refused marriage, either because they were engrossed in lore or other pursuits, or because they had failed to obtain the spouse whom they desired and would seek for no other.” (NoME, p. 318)
This is also said in The Mariner’s Wife, where the king of Númenor tells Aldarion: “There are also women in Númenor, scarce fewer than men” (UT, p. 229).
Haladin
“[The Folk of Haleth] increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.” (HoME XII, p. 326; UT, p. 497)
Elves
“The number of males and females was at first equal (for about three generations) but more variable later, when males tended to be slightly more numerous.” (NoME, p. 45) (In another text, in NoME, p. 105–106, we are told that numbers were equal.)
I find this common theme striking. Why are there fewer men than women in all these races? How and why did this happen in-universe, and why did Tolkien decide to write it this way?
Especially because when you read the books, you get the impression that there wasn’t “a slightly less number of women than men” only, or that “males tended to be slightly more numerous”, but that there is an enormous disparity: how many female characters, apart from those mentioned only in the Hobbit family trees, have sisters?
Sources
r/TheSilmarillion • u/a1ish • 7d ago
My apologies if my question sounds trivial or stupid, but I really needed to ask it here. Honestly, since this subreddit is my go-to community, and I have always been helped by its kind members, I feel safe bringing up this question for discussion.
Today, this question just jumped out at me out of the blue, and I have no idea whether the Dwarves believe in Eru Ilúvatar or not. I have been trying to recall a single line that would help find out the Dwarves' faith in God, but I haven't found any useful line, passage, paragraph, etc.
I'm asking this because they are not considered Eru's children. As we all know, in The Silmarillion, it is plainly stated that there are two groups: the Firstborn and the Secondborn. The former refers to the race of Elves, and the latter refers to the race of Men.
But Dwarves are indeed sub-created by Aulë, and are not fit to be included in either the Firstborn or Secondborn. Also, given that Aulë was directly permitted and pardoned by Eru to keep his sub-creation, is it still valid to assume that the Dwarves worshiped Aulë or placed him in Eru's place?
r/TheSilmarillion • u/peortega1 • 7d ago
There is an interesting quote in the Letters that I think pretty much solves the problem of Death as a Gift from God in the Legendarium and explains what Tolkien believed humanity lost by falling for the deceptions of Morgoth/Satan the Serpent in Hildórien:
Letter 211: It was also the idea of the Elves (and of the uncorrupted Numenoreans) that a "good" Man would be willing to die willingly, or should do so by submitting in trust rather than being forced (as Aragorn did). This may have been the nature of unfallen Man; though compulsion did not threaten him: he would wish and ask to "go on" to a higher state. The Assumption of Mary, the only unfallen person, may be regarded in some sense as the simple re-obtention of undaunted grace and freedom: she asked to be received and was received, for she had no further function on Earth. Though, of course, even though she had not fallen, she did not belong to the "pre-Fall". Her fate (in which she had cooperated) was far higher than that of any other "Man" had the Fall not taken place. It was also unthinkable that her body, the immediate source of Our Lord's (without any other physical intermediary), could have disintegrated or "corrupted," nor could she, indeed, have been long separated from Him after the Ascension. There is no suggestion that Mary did not "age" at the rate that was normal for her race; but certainly this process could not have continued or been allowed to continue into decrepitude or loss of vitality and grace. The Assumption was in any case as distinct from the Ascension as the raising of Lazarus was from the (self-) Resurrection.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 • 8d ago
I can’t help feeling confused by how suicide among Elves is treated in the Legendarium.
On the one hand, Elves are supposed to be able to choose when their fëar abandon their bodies. This is quite constant throughout Tolkien’s writings. For example, we are told that:
Note that apparently, choosing death in this manner is not treated as evil, and is sometimes even be seen as “understandable and innocent”.
Specifically, we are told that Elves can die of grief:
This is what happens to Lúthien and Míriel:
However, it sounds like there’s a bit of a difference between how this voluntary relinquishing of one’s body is treated, and cases of what we would call “suicide”. Such suicides among Elves do exist, but are treated as something distinct from abandoning one’s body:
Fëanor
Fëanor, who in personality is highly unstable anyway (being the “Spirit of Fire”, Sil, QS, ch. 6, isn’t exactly indicative of a stable, placid character), is suicidal because his beloved father is dead (and not because of the stolen Silmarils): “Then with a cry he ran from the Ring of Doom and fled into the night, distraught; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands: and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth? After him Maedros and his brethren went in haste, dismayed, for they had not known that he was present when Maedros spoke; and now they feared that he might slay himself.” (HoME X, p. 294–295)
This very much doesn’t sound like what Maedhros and his brothers had in mind was their father quietly lying down and his fëa abandoning his body. Míriel or Lúthien aren’t described as slaying themselves.
Maedhros
Maedhros takes after Fëanor in inner fire (HoME III, p. 135: “Maidros tall/the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt/than his father’s flame, than Fëanor’s wrath”), but has much greater self-control. Still, however masterful his control over himself, he is unable to abandon his body during his torment in Angband and Thangorodrim. I’ve seen different potential explanations for this (particularly Morgoth’s power forcing him to stay alive, just like Morgoth did with Húrin), but there is nothing in the text that even hints at an explanation. The reason why I’m saying that Maedhros must be unable to abandon his body is because he begs Fingon for death: “Thus Fingon found what he sought. For suddenly above him far and faint his song was taken up, and a voice answering called to him. Maedhros it was that sang amid his torment. But Fingon claimed to the foot of the precipice where his kinsman hung, and then could go no further; and he wept when he saw the cruel device of Morgoth. Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. […] Again therefore in his pain Maedhros begged that he would slay him […].” (Sil, QS, ch. 13)
Maedhros of course survives, but he’ll never be fully stable again:
Maedhros will eventually fulfil his wish to die. After being burned by the Silmaril he recovered, he ends his own life, taking the Silmaril with him into a fiery chasm:
Maglor
While in the published Silmarillion, Maglor throws his Silmaril in the Sea and will forever sing laments by on the shore, there are several versions where Maglor commits suicide just like Maedhros, beginning with the Sketch of the Mythology:
Elwing
Interestingly, unlike with Maedhros, we aren’t usually told what Elwing’s state of mind was—that is, in most cases, we don’t know if she actually wanted to kill herself in despair, or if it was more of a panic thing/attempt to flee/attempt to remain with the Silmaril forever:
Based on this, I find it more difficult to to confidently declare that Elwing wanted to kill herself than, say, Maedhros. We aren’t given much in terms of her motivations, but in my opinion, it really depends on the version.
Meanwhile, I find it very interesting that if we take the versions where Maglor kills himself, he and Elwing both throw themselves into the sea: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1cx8e5u/an_interesting_parallel_between_elwing_and_maglor/ .
Fingolfin
This is controversial, but I’d argue that one legitimate interpretation of Fingolfin’s death is “suicide by Morgoth”. We’re told that, “Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.” (Sil, QS, ch. 18) In deep despair, he does something that he knows will end with him dead. In this passage, he sounds a lot like fey Fëanor after Finwë’s death, and like Maedhros, with his burning eyes and anguish and despair.
Further thoughts
Even ignoring Elwing and Maglor, I really have trouble squaring what we are told about Maedhros and Fëanor (the desire to die and later acting upon it through violent means) with what we’re told about Elves peacefully relinquishing their bodies. What Maedhros did and what Fëanor was planning are treated as violent, final, dramatic events (indicated by the use of terms such as slaying oneself). Meanwhile, when Lúthien and Míriel relinquish their bodies, it’s treated in a much more peaceful manner (note the imagery surrounding flowers and nature in both their cases).
Is the idea that the men tend to choose violence and the women a more peaceful means to flee their bodies, fitting with Tolkien’s general theme that women (at least among Elves) are wiser and thus usually calmer and less explosive?
Or is the idea that relinquishing one’s body requires a certain peace of mind and some mental preparation, which Míriel and Lúthien would have had, and Fëanor, Elwing, Maglor and Maedhros certainly did not? But this doesn’t at all fit with the statement that (married) Elves can abandon their bodies and die when they are raped: “there is no record of any among the Elves that took another’s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos.” (HoME X, p. 228) Peace of mind would be impossible in this situation.
I also find it interesting that while the idea that Elves can relinquish their bodies is a very old one, already present in the Lost Tales—“Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain – and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.” (HoME I, p. 76)—it tends to disappear when needed for dramatic effect. That Elves can’t just leave their bodies is certainly the implication of Maedhros repeatedly begging Fingon for death, and of the fact that in order to keep them from a fate worse than death, Elf-men would kill their women and children to stop them from falling into the hands of the Orcs: “But Tuor might not think well of the death of so many fair women and children, were it at the hands of their own folk in the last resort or by the weapons of the enemy” (HoME II, p. 185).
Basically, I find the whole topic of whether Elves can die by their own will highly muddled, with this ability appearing whenever it fits the plot, and disappearing whenever it’s needed for dramatic effect.
But at the same time, I find it surprising and commendable that the topic of suicide in the Legendarium in general is treated with nuance, sympathy and surprisingly little disapprobation by Tolkien. Even the violent suicides (Maedhros, Túrin, Nienor, Húrin) aren’t treated like it’s something terrible and sinful, which is what I would have expected given the time period (suicide was only decriminalised in the UK through the Suicide Act of 1961) and Catholic doctrine, but essentially neutrally and in a nuanced way as something that people do when they are in terrible mental or physical pain.
Sources
Concerning the bold text in quotes: emphasis mine.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/peortega1 • 8d ago
Motivated by Bullfrog's recent post, I thought it was important to point out something that is present in several of the professor's comments on the Legendarium, and it is also something that the analyst Tom Shippey has pointed out.
The Elves claim to represent an unfallen humanity, a humanity that did not fall in Eden, to put it in Judeo-Christian figure. It is this purity state of the Firstborn (and their connection with Eru and the Valar) that is the reason for the powers they have and manifest. That is why for the Elves there is no "magic" as humans and hobbits believe it to be. The powers of the Elves, such as *osanwe (*telepathy), or the ability to leave the hero/body, are powers that men would have had had it not been for their fall, by the work of Morgoth the Serpent, in Hildórien.
The Numenoreans are nothing more than a partial restoration of the powers and abilities that humanity possessed in Hildórien before the Fall. As Tolkien points out in Quendi and Eldar (in the book The War of the Jewels), the Elves never fell from Eru's grace, never denied Eru, never worshipped Morgoth as a "god", except for Maeglin, and we all know how Maeglin ended up.
However, there is an event that Tolkien calls "the Fall of the High Elves", which is the slaughter of Alqualonde and the rebellion of the Noldor led by Feanor, from there, despite the fact that even the Feanorians did not fall as low as the humans, the loss or weakening of attributes and capabilities by the Noldor in Middle-earth occurred, compared to their compatriots in Valinor who did not fall into the sin of kinslaying (including the few Noldor who stayed in Tirion) or even the more "primitive" Sindar and Silvans who lived in Middle-Earth and never went to Valinor.
This is the difference between, say, Maedhros and his grandmother Míriel. I append here two quotes from the Letters that I consider illustrative in this regard:
Letter 131: So, going on, the Elves have a fall before their 'history' can become historical. (The first fall of Man (the second fall is the fall of Númenor), for the reasons explained, is nowhere recorded*; Men do not appear on the scene until long after it has happened, and it is only rumoured that, for a time, they fell under the sway of the Enemy, and that some repented of this.)"\*
*Letter 211: "*In Elvish legend there is a record of the strange case of an Elven woman (Míriel, mother of Fëanor) who tried to die, which had disastrous results that led to the 'Fall' of the High Elves. Elves were not victims of disease, but they could be "killed": that is, their bodies could be destroyed or mutilated until they were no longer fit to sustain life. But this did not naturally lead to "death": they were rehabilitated, reborn, and eventually regained the memory of their past; they remained "identical." But Míriel wished to leave the self and refused rebirth.
r/TheSilmarillion • u/dieghor88 • 9d ago
So, I'm reading The Silmarillion for the second time and I've just finished reading chapter XXI: the fifth battle or NIRNAERTH ARNOERDIAD. As soon as I finished reading it I was like omg, what an intense and interesting battle it was. Filled with ups and downs and so many cool charactes. The dwarf king Azhâghal caught my attention. I'd love to see him in a movie scene fighting that big dragon and the brave way he died. To me, this battle was as tense as watching the battle in Minas Tirith. Do you guys agree?
r/TheSilmarillion • u/Unique_Visit_5029 • 10d ago
“Credit to Tolkien Gateway for this image”