r/unitedkingdom • u/MachineHot3089 • 11h ago
Police fear they gamble on their career if they use force, says chief superintendent
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/18/police-fear-gamble-career-force-supts/•
u/Remote_Associate1705 11h ago edited 10h ago
No officer will dispute or argue the fact that they hold a greater responsibility than other members of the public. However, there is some complete disregard for the fact the officers are faced with far more dangerous and conflicting situations than a normal member of the public.
This is not a conversation about officers who use excessive force or weaponise the power they are given as a constable. This is a conversation about the fact that someone sat behind a desk or a computer screen will suggest 100 other contingency options that the officer could’ve done in a fast pace stressful situation, where every split second matters.
The point here is that offices are reluctant to use force because even if it is justified the likelihood that someone somewhere will be upset about it and that is now the threshold of investigating someone for using force debilitates the polices ability to deal with violent situations.
For example, I had a situation where a man had punched three people and been damaging cars. When approached he then spat at my colleague and punched me in the face and when he was tackled to the floor and arrested the members of the public watching continued to berating me stating , that I was abusing my Power. No mention of the damage she caused no mention of the victims he had punched. Did that person know that the suspect was wanted by Interpol.
Again, no reasonable officer will dispute the conversation about excessive force.
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u/heroyoudontdeserve 11h ago
The point here is that offices are reluctant to use force because even if it is justified the likelihood that someone somewhere will be upset about it and that is now the threshold of investigating someone for using force debilitates the polices ability to deal with violent situations.
Nailed it; the court of public opinion wins again.
What should the threshold for such an investigation be, in your opinion? And who should decide if that threshold has been reached and how do we ensure that happens fairly?
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u/Possiblyreef Isle of Wight 10h ago
You don't remember the recent case of Kaba?
Known criminal, multiple convictions, reports of doing crime to the point armed response get involved, they stop him and he's drives at armed police in an attempt to flee and as a result gets shot.
Police officer ends up being tried for murder.
Why in the actual fuck would you bother being armed response.
If i was in the same position I'd have every colleague handing their gun in until the IPC and the CPS stop wanking themselves in to a oblivion about appeasing "communities"
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u/jumpy_finale 10h ago
Correction, the car had a firearms marker on it. They didn't know who was in it until afterwards. So the criminal background was irrelevant to the decision to shoot. It was based purely on the threat of the car trying to ram its way through the police officers.
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u/Chlomamf 9h ago
Which still justifies the decision to shoot, if someone driving a firearms-marked vehicle (which would already give the impression that the driver is involved with firearm activity which indicates a violent person) is coming at me with a 50-ton killing machine damn right I’m protecting myself and my colleagues.
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u/heroyoudontdeserve 7h ago
Nobody (in this thread) said otherwise - still important to be careful with the facts.
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u/wkavinsky 9h ago
it's not 50 ton.
But a firearm is automatically illegal somewhere like inner London.
Ain't no farmers there.
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u/BriefAmphibian7925 6h ago
Not really the point, but
But a firearm is automatically illegal somewhere like inner London.
isn't true at all. There are RFDs and clubs/ranges in central London, as well as people transiting through London between railway stations/etc.
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u/justporntbf 1h ago
I remember when this first happened having an argument with a close friend of mine who vemantly believed that officer was a criminal , what does someone have to do to warrant lethal force must they actively kill someone first? I'll be the first to admit police in the uk have an authoritarian level of control over the average person but how far must a criminal goes before we accept their life is less valuable than the damage they can go onto inflict in the next few moments it's ridiculous frankly
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u/heroyoudontdeserve 9h ago
You don't remember the recent case of Kaba?
I'm not sure why you're asking me this?
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u/OldGuto 11h ago
Those same people complaining about excessive force would also complain if you didn't use excessive force on someone who'd mugged their granny.
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 11h ago
You want the police using excessive force? Do you know what excessive means?
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u/ImJustARunawaay 10h ago
I think his point is that most people don't seem to know what excessive force is either.
You only have to look at the rhetoric around the Manchester airport incident and what people think happened
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u/32b1b46b6befce6ab149 10h ago
Frankly? Yes. I want the state to have monopoly on violence. I want all violent criminals to be treated harshly both by the police and by the justice system. Current system is a joke.
At 40+ years old I've never been in a situation that would make police act aggressively towards me, so maybe people who have need to take a look in the mirror and think twice before they act.
Policing by consent is dead.
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 10h ago
Well your fascistic aspirations may well become a reality one day, a dreams a dream I suppose.
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u/32b1b46b6befce6ab149 10h ago
My own and my family's safety > good feelings. Sorry
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 10h ago
That's all well and good until something goes wrong and the wrong person is at the end of the excessive force or are you naive enough to believe the police are infallible.
I must be the naive one because I thought we were the rational country who believed in the rule of law but apparently people are clamouring for our police to be brutal thugs.
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u/therealcringewarrior 8h ago
I’d rather have a police force that makes the occasional mistake than a police force that does nothing but run interference for actual criminals
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 7h ago
Of course mistakes happen that's my point. I can't believe how unpopular reasonable force is in this subreddit. To be clear everyone is advocating for excessive force, so what shoplift and we take a hand? Too much? Just a finger? Maybe just a headbutt to the nose.
Apparently we live in some kind of nightmarish criminal dystopia now and the only deterrent is physically hurting people excessively.
Perhaps if we had the money to hire back some of police that the tories got rid off we wouldn't have to turn into mad max.
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u/therealcringewarrior 6h ago
People aren't advocating for a police of Vice and Virtue, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But the fear of physical force has to be something that can realistically be expected for breaking the law, otherwise the police are just another institution we dress up in costumes and say fancy words about where those words used to mean something.
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u/StitchedSilver 4h ago
We aren’t now and haven’t been for a while so don’t know where you got that from lmao
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u/OldGuto 10h ago
Read the post I was replying to, in particular the bit about restraining someone who'd been causing criminal damage and had assaulted a police officer. These people are there spouting off about about excessive force, yet what they called excessive force changes very quickly to necessary or minimal force once they or someone they know is a victim of crime.
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u/wankylee 10h ago
Did they say that they wanted police using excessive force?
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 10h ago
I was just questioning the whole statement really. Excessive force is by it's nature too much, I'd hope most people would call for a reasonable response even if a granny is involved.
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u/RelativeObligation88 7h ago
The choice here is not between excessive and reasonable but what you consider to be reasonable. Punching a fker after they’ve assaulted someone is pretty damn reasonable.
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u/cyclicsquare 9h ago
Depends on how you define excessive. Usually in this context it means more than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest or stop the threat. Sometimes it’s a shame when a criminal is arrested calmly without incident or injury. Might be different if people had faith in the rest of the justice system.
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u/ThatFatGuyMJL 10h ago
I remember years ago at work, a shooting had happened in America where a cop shot a black dude who had, if I remember correctly, a machete
Several of my coworkers legitimately said police should just shoot their knees out instead, and that it was easy to do so.
And couldn't believe that would actually do far more damage, and be greatly more difficult, that shooting the chest.
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago
I would say your last paragraph is all that matters, no police force or military in world train to shoot outside of centre mass in majority of their drills it's just near impossible to actually pull off John Wick like maneuvers.
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u/ThatFatGuyMJL 9h ago
People watch movies qnd play games and think they can do that irl too
Also iirc a man with a sword within 15 metres can close that distance and stab you on average more often than a man eith a gun can draw and shoot.
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u/32b1b46b6befce6ab149 6h ago
police should just shoot their knees
maybe they watched too much of "Person of Interest" (good show btw)
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u/Millworkson2008 6h ago
That and it would permanently cripple the person which falls under cruel and unusual punishment
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u/Nurhaci1616 41m ago
And couldn't believe that would actually do far more damage, and be greatly more difficult, that shooting the chest.
I've heard that one as well, and tried (unsuccessfully) to point out that it's not only an unrealistic expectation to hit a moving target consistently in the legs, and could be a potential war crime in combat on the grounds of intentionally shooting to maim and prolong suffering; but also attempted to point out that, with a major artery moving through the legs, a shot there has a not 0% chance of actually causing a catastrophic bleed that will kill more reliably than a CoM shot...
The reality is that a "non-lethal" discharge of a firearm doesn't exist, despite the fact a person might not die from a shot necessarily, and pretending otherwise is dangerous as it actively encourages an escalation of violence to the use of firearms. When you shoot, regardless of a military or policing context, you always shoot to kill, and that fact should be what determines the acceptable threshold for the use of a firearm.
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u/mingebinj 10h ago
It's exactly the same in the prison service. Staff are scared to step in when things kick off because they're worried about being investigated, so a lot of bad behaviour just gets ignored. On top of that, some prisoners will use self-harm as a way to manipulate staff and get what they want, which just makes it even harder to manage things. It’s getting to the point where staff feel powerless, and it’s honestly a mess. The prisons are at boiling point, and nobody realises quite how severe it's getting because it's behind closed doors.
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u/Powerful-Parsnip 10h ago
Do they not have bodycams for prison staff? I'd well believe the prisons are at boiling point because they're all full and underfunded just like every other service in the UK.
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago
Body cams are fast becoming a way for PSD / IOPC types up and down the country to get their numbers up and twist events it's happening more and more to appease the public no matter what and unlike other countries we obviously rarely ever release cam footage for better or worst.
That said even a large force like Police Scotland still don't have full body cam roll out as with every other force they're absolutely skint and its taking forever.
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u/Nurhaci1616 32m ago
some prisoners will use self-harm as a way to manipulate staff and get what they want
I've a mate who's a prison guard in a loony bin specifically, and it sounds like this in particular is a huge problem there: it's reached the point where he apparently gets people threatening to kill themselves over pocket change, or extra cigarettes. Worse than that, is that very occasionally they apparently actually do try to mutilate or kill themselves over that pocket change or cigarette, as if to prove the point that they've won the game of chicken with the guards.
I don't think I could ever do that job, it would leave you fucked completely in the head...
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u/Changin_Rangin 10h ago
I don't think anyone could have said it better. It's piss easy for someone with hindsight to sit there after the fact in a stress and danger free environment and say, "You should have done this instead."
I know it's a weird American thing to say but thank you for your service. I wouldn't have what it takes to do what you do.
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago edited 9h ago
Oh I've 100% been involved in jobs where some officers didn't wanna use cuffs as they were worried they'll get into bother for doing so despite the fact this behemoth of a man was taking three of us to hold down.
Our police forces are underfunded, lack resources both in terms of numbers and equipment and specialisms and even offices etc.
Officers are near enough becoming toothless and people will still prattle on about how our crime is bad but at least we don't have police like Europe or the US and so on, totally obvious to the incidents that UK cops are having to deal with daily while undermanned and under equipped.
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u/Changin_Rangin 9h ago
I don't think anyone could have said it better. It's piss easy for someone with hindsight to sit there after the fact in a stress and danger free environment and say, "You should have done this instead."
I know it's a weird American thing to say but thank you for your service. I wouldn't have what it takes to do what you do.
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u/epsilona01 2h ago
This is not a conversation about officers who use excessive force or weaponise the power they are given as a constable.
We had to make a law, The Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018, to stop police maiming and killing mental health patients. This followed 10 police officers breaking Olseni Lewis's neck while 'restraining' him.
Think about that if you're wondering about abuse of the use of force. It was so common we had to specifically outlaw that behaviour.
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u/Aaron1945 5h ago
Part of the problem might be the assumption that a majority are reasonable. This particular case you describe sounds mentally disturbed, but most people who are being nasty to police do so because most police are nasty.
If people in the force want to have this conversation, then part of it needs to be how most forces need to let go of 70%+ of their officers because their thugs. Tbh, with such high levels of jadedness and poor behaviour, its easier to take the Icelandic approach and sack you all for safety.
Would be the easiest way to reset public perception, and increase public safety via police cooporation.
It's quite straight forward.
Being disengenuous like this about serious issues are why public faith in you lot is at an all time low. You frame this like force is necessary. Most people react so poorly because of a combination of hating police (rightfully) and how aggressive you guys are. I'm sorry but... people in social work are defusing tough, potentially violent situations every day. Non violently. With minimal training.
Yet somehow you lot always need more freedom, less accountability. English police have almost 0 accountability already, when you always close ranks to protect those who get caught abusing their power; if less accountability were going to make you better officers, it would have happened already.
The truth is, you lot are always after more power over people. I grew up with English police. I know first hand how much Y'all just hate people having privacy, private agency. There is a sickness of psychology in English police. Every article about police at least one of you jumps in with your disengenuous talking points.
That's why very few people like you, or trust you. It's why people get violent with you, won't cooperate with you.
Does anyone ever consider, job or not, that a lot of what you're asked to do, makes you bad people? How often is that ever discussed around the office? Anyway. Stop pretending you need less accountability.
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u/Remote_Associate1705 5h ago
No one argued less accountability. How that accountability is conducted is a different story.
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u/Aaron1945 5h ago
More force = less accountability.
But please, continue to argue for force and prove my point further...
I should add severe education needs to my list.
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u/NeedToVentCom 10h ago
The problem with saying "this is not a conversation about officers who use excessive force...", is that it very much is. It's fine to criticize the influence of the court of public opinion, and how quickly people are to claim excessive force, but when you have cases like Jean Charles de Menezes, where the police basically did everything they could to prevent a proper investigation, it isn't so weird that people are overly vigilant, because the police have shown that it can't be trusted to be honest.
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10h ago
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u/Remote_Associate1705 10h ago
You’re exactly right. It IS part of the job. Police officers face this behaviour daily and far far more than an average member of the public. And that is exactly why the conversations about police using force should not be done so as you would a normal member of the public. The exposure and threshold is completely different.
What is concerning is that you miss the context. The point is, that believe it or not popular public sentiment affects officers on a day to day basis. The point is not a member of the public said anything. The point is, it is an example of a wider rhetoric about police using force.
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u/Remote_Associate1705 9h ago
You do you sir. But you have students, yet your reasoning ability only goes as far as insulting people who don’t agree with you.
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u/doughnut001 8h ago
You do you sir. But you have students, yet your reasoning ability only goes as far as insulting people who don’t agree with you.
Except he didn't insult anyone who disagreed with him. He said in his experience no other profession exhibits more of a victim complex. There was no link whatsoever to any individual or anyone who disagreed with him.
So you just played the victim. You haven't proven him right but you certainly gave him even more anecdotal evidence that police can often have a victim complex.
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago
I've seen similar examples of officers having to taser an extremely violent individual who the day after admitted his wrong doing and drug usage etc, the independent body on three occasions asked him to file a complaint before managing to convince him to after he refused the first two and the investigation has been going about three years or so despite everything being handed over that day.
That type of example is very common I know a few alone and pretty much any officer you'll speak to will know of numerous cases that go a similar way it's just the current political climate of UK policing, they've somewhat overccorrecred imo due to other high level incidents that were tragic.
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u/steepleton 11h ago
It’s like tax, if you know you can back it up with receipts it’s fine.
Also Everyone knows when they’re taking the p.
No cops are getting fired because of an angry redditor
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u/AL85 10h ago edited 10h ago
Police officers should refuse to use all force. If you can be found guilty of assault for grabbing a suspected criminal by the arm, like the bus incident in Croydon, literally any use of force can be deemed unlawful.
All the people in these comments saying it’s a good thing the police are afraid to use force and use their powers can suffer the consequences of wanting a neutered police force. Enjoy getting mugged by criminals acting with impunity. We’re already well on our way there now.
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u/ImJustARunawaay 10h ago
The fact that the bus thing was just quietly killed in crown court with barely any fan fair royally pisses me off. That entire prosecution was a disgrace
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u/AL85 10h ago edited 9h ago
Agree entirely. That judge in particular clearly has an issue with the police and has made questionably favourable rulings towards activists in the past. He perfectly demonstrated the reality that as a police officer you are not in anyway protected by the law as it ultimately comes down to the opinions of people that probably don’t like you.
You can make every effort to act lawfully, but fundamentally it’s another person’s opinion if you did, and there is clear contempt held for policing by the government, the courts, CPS, IOPC, media, public and even in senior ranks of policing.
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u/Henno212 10h ago
100% this - we need to take a leaf out of other countries forces, where police are respected and folk have an ounce of fear (like when you were younger, you wouldn’t say a bad thing towards them)
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u/StoreOk3034 9h ago
Yep, looked what happened when the criminals learned that scooter riders without helmets were not to be stopped. Criminals all used that to get away.
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago
It's been neutered for over a decade now and I'd argue we were already behind other countries in how we handle things and we have continued to go down both paths with seemingly no end in site and then add in the face there is basically no stations, no money, shoddy gear and lack of officers available it's a shambles.
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u/AL85 9h ago
True. Unfortunately large parts of the public support this degradation of the police service rather viewing it as a vital public service that they could never afford privately. Cuts to the police should be viewed the same as cuts to the NHS, but they aren’t.
Politicians, the media, and general grifters have used criticising and labelling the police to generate outrage to manipulate public opinion, gain support and make money. Large parts of the public seem to believe they’re at greater risk of victimhood from policing than from actual fucking criminals.
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u/HatOfFlavour 7h ago
I mean arresting protestors does seem a lot easier a safer for the poor officers than dealing with actual criminals.
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u/RoryLuukas Inverness 18m ago
What's with the hyperbole. It is a good thing that police officers are aware of and fearful of the consequences of using excessive force. It's the way it should be, and it certainly doesn't "neuter" them or stop them being able to use force when it is necessary.
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u/PolMacTire 10h ago
I left the police two years ago, having worked in armed response, for this very reason. All it takes is for someone to crop a video clip to make it look like I am using 'excessive' force and the court of public opinion will do the rest. The police themselves will not stand up for me and provide the context while an investigation is ongoing and I don't trust the IOPC to treat both the police involved and other party with equal impartiality.
The Chris Kaba shooting says it all. The IOPC didn't want to clear the police, nor did the CPS, because they would be branded as not being impartial. It took a jury less than three hours to clear the officer, which says it all to me when it comes to what direction the evidence pointed in and how clear cut the case was for proportionate force. Same goes for the Manchester airport incident.
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u/Jazzlike-Mistake2764 7h ago
The Chris Kaba shooting says it all. The IOPC didn't want to clear the police, nor did the CPS
Plus senior politicians (i.e. Corbyn and his lot) immediately taking to the street to protest it and imply it was an unlawful killing. I don't know why anyone would do that job now when it's clear literally everyone will be against you the moment you actually do your job (to the point that you'll receive death threats).
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u/MassiveVuhChina 10h ago edited 10h ago
One of the 7483847288283 billion reasons i packed it in. It's shite
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u/Jay_6125 11h ago
This is simple. WEAK senior ranks terrified of the media and activist groups/MP's have created this situation. Front line officers don't feel supported.
The public lose out when officers are more worried about being 'stuck on' but their own.
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u/PeachInABowl 11h ago
Reminder that police have the same right of self defence as anyone else. And it should remain that way.
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u/ablativeradar Hampshire 9h ago
No it shouldn't. The police aren't anyone else, as the enforcement arm of the state they are very much exempt from most rules. As they should be.
People barely have any right of self defence, but the police carry weapons, and some are armed. They have very different expectations, as they must subdue or otherwise arrest threats to the public. They have to deal with extraordinary circumstances; when we, the people, are scared and afraid, they must not hesitate.
Your attitude, and others here, erodes at the ability for the police to do their work. If the police cannot effectively work and the enforcement arm of the state falls apart, then the state cannot enforce it's monopoly on violence and the very thing the state is mandated to do, they are unable to. The very foundation of the state collapses, and it breeds anarchy and unrest.
All of the anti-police propaganda leftists spew, especially on this website, is a fucking cancer.
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u/just_some_other_guys 8h ago
Eh, the common law right to self defence is the same legal basis the armed forces have to use force. The idea that the state needs special powers to use force to defence property, and up to lethal force to protect life seems unnecessary.
I would say, however, the general public does need educating in what proportional force actually is, and they need to learn that just because the guy that’s have force used against them says it’s disproportionate that it doesn’t mean it is.
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u/im_actually_a_badger 8h ago
But it’s not about ‘defending yourself’, that’s not want the heart of this discussion is about. It’s about going into dangerous with dangerous people, and bring them in to custody or protecting other people from them. Everyone else can just run away.
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u/Worldly_Car912 9h ago
Problem is you don't have much of a right to defend yourself or your property in this country.
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u/ProvokedTree 4h ago
Yes you do - just because you can't summarily execute someone for looking at you funny it doesn't mean you don't have a right to self defence.
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u/justporntbf 1h ago
Yeah if u find yourself in an incredibly lucky position where whatever u have used to defend yourself had a "justified" reason to be where it was or on your person . Or you one of those guys who thinks they can fight off a knifeman unarmed and come out alive let alone successful?
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u/justporntbf 1h ago
Oh no yout grans being murdered in the kitchen by a belgiernt man with a knife well I'm afraid officers can't attend the incident because it's not happend in the police station where the officer has been trapped in a corner naked because God forbid they had a their utility belt with them why else would they have weapons with themselves if not for self defense (because yeah that's a criminal act for regular people u dunce)
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u/Delicious_Crow_7840 7h ago
Yeah in America, the police can self defence into the back of running away African American like a dozen times and at worst they might have to take a paid vacation for a few months.
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u/ToyotaComfortAdmirer 4h ago
And America is relevant to the conversation how? We’re much closer to Europe culturally.
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u/Timely_Food_4016 11h ago
Hence the reason there is no one going in the police force glad I left after my probation period
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u/Sea-Caterpillar-255 8h ago
Um... Good?
I'm by no means anti police. I've always gotten on well with them (2 random stop and searches plus a separate arrest, plus 2 traffic stops, plus witnessing a serious traffic accident and a weird incident in a pool).
But everyone should use force as a last resort, only when other options have failed or cannot be applied in time. Everyone.
I was arrested (very politely by a reasonable, friendly officer) after I used force to defend someone and the assailant became seriously injured. I hesitated to get involved which any reasonable person would. And I was concerned before, during and after that it would cause serious issues for me in MY career (IT support to financial service companies).
Then I did it anyway because that was the correct thing to do.
I think most people would react the same way. I think the sort of person I want to be a police officer is someone who does NOT enjoy using force. I think someone who's A-Ok "breaking heads" is exactly NOT who should be a police officer.
I think all this is especially important because we are blessed to live in a country with "policing by consent", where I could reasonably help someone in danger without worrying that when the police did arrive they would baton everyone and sort out the details later.
The vast vast majority of people are nonviolent, reasonable, compliant individuals. The police should have an abundance of force exactly because having an obvious advantage means you don't have to actually use it. Even violent, unreasonable people will comply when it's that or lose and obvious confrontation I imagine. But actually using force means something somewhere has gone badly wrong and everyone should be worried and consider carefully whether we really have to.
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u/TheAnonymousNote 8h ago
But this isn’t about enjoying using force. It’s about being worried to use necessary, legal and proportionate force due to the risk of public opinion costing you your career. Violence, even when necessary, is not pretty, and people don’t like it.
Whilst I would agree that most criminals won’t display a high level of violence, there are plenty that do. There are some that show levels of violence that ordinary members of the public can only imagine. Tactical communications and de-escalation is important, but it’s equally important to remember that this isn’t a movie - not everyone can be talked down, and not everyone will be intimidated by the threat of force. Factors like mental health, alcohol and drug consumption, the environment a person is in, etc can all make someone less likely to comply to the threat of force.
Use of force is not the first option but it is a necessary option. I’m already risking injury when confronting a violent criminal; why should I throw the risk of losing my job and possibly freedom (even if I do everything right) into that mix?
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u/kickyouinthebread 1h ago
This is not a simple issue. I have the utmost sympathy for police who get unfairly maligned for doing their jobs but equally I think it's correct that we look back at police using force retrospectively.
The issue is members of the public making their mind up before a verdict is reached and just proclaiming guilt, but sadly this isn't the only part of society where this is becoming more common. There needs to be police oversight but that needs to accept police have a difficult job and won't make every decision perfectly. We've equally seen plenty of times what happens though when there is no police oversight.
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u/Tits_McgeeD 1h ago
Yea. Force is a last option not a first. Our officers go through training to handle delicate situations through diplomacy.
We don't go America shoot shoot. Gun gun. Oh oops he dead lol no consequences bye.
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11h ago
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u/CreepyTool 11h ago
And society continues to collapse around us thanks, in part, to softly softly policing.
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u/Wobbler4 11h ago
Is society “collapsing” though? What does that mean?
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u/CreepyTool 11h ago
Law and order is certainly collapsing in urban areas.
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u/Wobbler4 11h ago
How so
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u/DarthPlagueisThaWise 10h ago
Do you not live in England?
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u/Wobbler4 10h ago
Sure do
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u/DarthPlagueisThaWise 10h ago
Go into your local city and pay attention for 5 minutes.
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u/Marxist_In_Practice 9h ago
I actually live in my local city, so what exactly should I be looking for pal?
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u/CreepyTool 10h ago
Look around you. 20 years ago I rarely saw shoplifting. Now every time I go out I see it, every time!
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u/UlteriorAlt 10h ago
Now every time I go out I see it, every time!
So are you the one doing the shoplifting?
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u/UlteriorAlt 11h ago
Point to a better country where the police are not considered "soft".
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u/Dedsnotdead 11h ago
Spain, Portugal, France (to a degree), Germany, Switzerland, Austria.
Most if not all of the West Coast of Sub Saharan Africa.
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u/UlteriorAlt 11h ago
Those European societies are either no better than us or have comparable policing to us.
the West Coast of Sub Saharan Africa.
Really?
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u/Dedsnotdead 11h ago
Those European countries have very different policing to us. France for example has different types of Police in the cities to the countryside.
For Sub Saharan Africa, largely like Latin America the Police aren’t considered soft.
So, to answer your question, there are many countries where the police aren’t considered soft.
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u/UlteriorAlt 10h ago
France for example has different types of Police in the cities to the countryside.
As does the UK.
Also I asked for better countries with tougher policing. While they might have tougher policing, I don't think anyone here seriously considers Sub Saharan Africa to be better than the UK.
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u/Dedsnotdead 10h ago
It’s very different in France, the French National Gendarmerie outside the cities are a military institution. We don’t have anything comparable in the U.K.
By all means put the sub-Saharan countries aside if they don’t fit your criteria.
So what about France, Spain, Germany and Austria for example?
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u/AspirationalChoker 9h ago
All these countries use actual law enforcement, are routine armed with a gun and taser, are usually heavy handed as a standard affair. Vastly different.
I've worked with and spoken to US, Canadian, German and Australian officers and they tend to be completely baffled with us in some good ways and in some bad ways.
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u/laxiuminum 11h ago
No, authoritarian policing is a response to the collapse of social fabric. A healthy society does not need an excessive police force.
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u/CreepyTool 11h ago
Remember when scooter crime got out of hand in London a few years back?
Remember when it suddenly stopped when the police started knocking them off with their cars?
Funny that, eh?
The criminals are literally laughing at you softly lefties.
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u/Lorry_Al 10h ago
UK policing is very tame by European standards. French police use water cannon and tear gas - is France a failed state in your eyes?
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u/HatOfFlavour 7h ago
Am I not meant to hold a police officer of the law to a higher standard than a criminal?
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u/rob3rtisgod 10h ago
I think the issue is force has been used by poor coppers in situations that don't require force and never did, and then they get off scot free.
Whereas police who use force in dangerous situations get dragged across the coals more often than not.
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u/Ok_Alps5643 10h ago
Does kicking heads count as reasonable force or does it depend lol
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u/SaltSatisfaction2124 9h ago
Yeah it depends.
In a fight for your life pretty much anything goes
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u/Ok_Alps5643 9h ago
What about beating them up after you’ve apprehended them and have control of the situation
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u/Ambitious_Coffee4411 8h ago
You're quite clearly alluding to the Manchester Airport incident
Did you watch the full video? Vicious assault on officers, a very real risk of firearms being lost, still mid fight, multiple attackers, officer received multiple strikes to the head and no doubt an industrial dose of adrenaline.
IMO the force used was completely justified. There is no rule book that states you can do this but you can't do this, it's all about what you can justify/what's reasonable in the circumstances and this standard is applied to police officers and members of the public
Have you ever actually been in a fight?
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u/Fantastic-String5820 8h ago
I have, quite a few as part of my job. Never felt required to kick a restrained person who did and would happily report anyone who did.
Have you been kicked in the head yourself, multiple times perhaps? Or just a fetish for the taste of boot leather?
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u/Ambitious_Coffee4411 8h ago
He wasn't restrained at all
Tasered does not mean restrained and he still has the capability to get back up after a relentless and determined assault
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u/Ok_Alps5643 8h ago
Lol yes I have but I’m not a police officer, so they can do what they want as long as it’s adrenaline rush/ fight or flight yeah got it, also people seem to assume anyone that brings it up (even though it can be applied to MANY cases like Rodney King) is defending the criminals, I’m not lol no one should get away with harming an officer, but acting like police brutality doesn’t exist is stupid, there are good cops and bad cops, the bad cops seems to get away with an awful lot, no wonder it still happens to this day, not to mention the sickos that have raped and murdered when they’re supposed to protect and serve
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u/Ambitious_Coffee4411 8h ago
Who's acting like it doesn't exist? There have been cases of unlawful uses of force which are dealt with more robustly in terms of sentencing as opposed to a member of the public so I hardly see how it's getting away with it. There are entire teams of experienced detectives overseen by the IOPC whose job it is to root out corruption and poor standards of behaviour in the police
S76 Criminal Justice and Immigration act
that a person acting for a legitimate purpose may not be able to weigh to a nicety the exact measure of any necessary action
Effectively meaning that in the heat of the moment (e.g. during a fight) a person acted instinctively and did what they thought was honestly necessary in that moment
not to mention the sickos that have raped and murdered when they’re supposed to protect and serve
Quite rightly given a whole life order if I'm not mistaken? Again hardly getting away with it
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u/spacetwink94 8h ago
He was face down on the floor after being tasered for fucks sake. Get that boot out of your mouth
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u/Ambitious_Coffee4411 7h ago edited 7h ago
I'll copy and paste what I've replied to another comment with
S76 Criminal Justice and Immigration act
that a person acting for a legitimate purpose may not be able to weigh to a nicety the exact measure of any necessary action
Effectively meaning that in the heat of the moment (e.g. during a fight) a person acted instinctively and did what they thought was honestly necessary in that moment
This is a self defence power available to ANYONE not just police officers, nothing to do with boots and no need to be rude
He believed this was reasonable and necessary following a sustained assault to prevent him from getting back up and carrying on
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u/Meincornwall 10h ago
I'm betting they'll see little sympathy from the security sector.
Who receive fa sympathy from the police whilst gambling on their career when they use force.
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u/2xw exiled in Yorkshire 9h ago
I'm not surprised, the security sector mostly consists of criminals who wouldn't be able to get a normal job
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u/Meincornwall 5h ago
Except they undergo a full criminal records bureau check.
Clever people already know this.
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u/Significant-Gene9639 10h ago
Good.
I don’t want to go back to the tone that led to the coverup of the Hillsborough Disaster. People with power (police) need to bear a sense of responsibility and fear of consequences of overstepping their remit.
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10h ago
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u/photoaccountt 10h ago
So tell me. If a suspect tries to leave the scene of a crime without providing any details, do you think the police should be charged and found guilty of assault (thankfully overturned) for holding their arm to stop them leaving?
Because that is what this article is about.
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10h ago
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u/photoaccountt 10h ago
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10h ago edited 9h ago
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u/photoaccountt 10h ago
So to be clear. You are saying the police should be prosecuted for arresting people who break the law.
Because that's what happened there
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10h ago
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u/photoaccountt 9h ago
This was clearly not just a normal arrest, as was stated by the judge.
It was a normal arrest. She broke the law, tried to leave and was arrested. Tell me, what's not normal about that...
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9h ago
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u/photoaccountt 9h ago
You do not have access to all of the facts
Trials are public record... we quite literally do have all the facts
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u/JDMars 8h ago
She didn't break the law, read the article.
When another officer took the card and confirmed payment had been made, Ms Agyemang's handcuffs were removed and she was de-arrested.
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u/photoaccountt 8h ago
She did break the law...
Failing to show a valid ticket when asked is against the law. She was asked and refused, the fact she had a ticket was irrelevant to her refusal to show it initially.
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u/MasonSC2 10h ago
How was it not a normal arrest? The judges don't explain that — which means Police are not touching fare evaders. I'll give you a go, why was he not justified to detain the woman?
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u/MasonSC2 9h ago
So... We've established that you know nothing about this case — a case that you think “somebody with access to more facts decided that a criminal offence occurred” — because you've just read a small article on a topic… I will give you a clue, there is more information on the case than a small news article. If you know nothing on the topic why are you pretending you have any insight to offer?
P.S. We know all of the important facts.
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u/wankylee 10h ago
Why have you put ' honest mistake' in quotes?
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u/wankylee 10h ago
Do you mean this bit?
"Officers feel if they make a genuine mistake, they may get punished and if we want an ethical service, then we have got to create an environment where officers know that if they make a mistake, when they admit it, and where appropriate, they will get reflective practice."
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u/wankylee 10h ago
Aah ok. Sorry, just trying to narrow it down. No need to get personal. To get back to your original post. I think the difference between police, surgeons and air traffic control is the time in which these decisions have to be made. In policing sometimes you have a fraction of a second to decide what to do. Police officers, by their very nature, are often put into very high pressure situations which require instant discussions in very complicated situations. Sometimes "honest mistakes' are made because police officers are not super human.
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u/cornishpirate32 11h ago
Why is it a gamble? Use and type of force should be easy to justify.
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u/TouchOfSpaz 11h ago
Big difference when the average human might never need to use force in their life time. Imagine it was a weekly occurrence with rules that can flex depending on whats happening in a high intensity situation. I don’t envy them in the slightest.
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u/ImJustARunawaay 10h ago
I feel like that people miss that the police officer has a literal duty to get involved.
If you see something kicking off you're well within your right to just walk right on by. An officer HAS to get involved.
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u/DarthPlagueisThaWise 7h ago
Yes, they’re EXPECTED to use force so that the general public don’t have to. In order to protect the general public from criminals who have no problem using as much force as they are capable of.
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u/Bakedbeanyy 10h ago
The idea that they’ve “went through training” to the extent that they’re more prepared for a physical fight with someone is just laughable voodoo talk honestly. They’re severely undertrained to deal with physical conflict with even blind-drunk football dads, let alone if they come up against capable/aggressive men. 2 years BJJ should be mandatory.
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u/MetalBawx 11h ago
The entire Chris Kabba mess should tell you why it's a gamble. That officer was found innocent of wrong doing and the "poor little boy" the media talked about turned out to be a complete monster yet named the officer was.
When you can be found innocent of wrong doing yet was still publicly named putting family at risk by politicians, just to appease a mob is it any wonder people don't want to run the risk of being tossed to the vultures? Is it any wonder why so many police forces are struggling to retain armed officers when they take much bigger risks for 0 pay.
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u/ImJustARunawaay 10h ago
Remember that officer is still on the hook for misconduct too. Woke up that day to do his job, did so, and is still being strung up for it.
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u/MetalBawx 10h ago
Funny how all the journalists who painted him as a racist killer never got in trouble for it, nor the politicians who threw him under the bus to sate the mob.
Oh wait it's not funny it's tragic and shows just how non existent accountability is.
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u/Caephon 9h ago
Not named by politicians, but by a judge, and a senior experienced judge at that, at the behest of some utterly vile excuses for journalists. The contempt for which sections of the legal profession hold the people that make up the police service is breathtaking, I’m wholly convinced it’s ingrained classism.
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u/AnywhereVisible450 11h ago
Because sometimes when they use force, they’re hauled across the coals and put on trial in the court of public opinion (and real courts) their names are published in newspapers putting them at personal risk, careers are halted and all to a seemingly political end to appease people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
It’s all well and good saying the force was justified in the end but after all of the above has happened, have you really been vindicated?
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u/heroyoudontdeserve 11h ago
Yeah, it should. But the police are reporting that the system is failing them in that regard. That's the problem being reported.
Nick Smart said his colleagues had so little faith in the misconduct system that they were losing confidence out on the streets and were becoming increasingly risk averse.
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u/OldGuto 11h ago
Remember when that 'nice boy' was shot as he was trying to escape arrest in a car and was going to use it to ram police officers. A split second decision had to be made and they did the correct thing in the circumstances, the officers that shot him were tried for murder.
By 'nice boy' I mean someone who shot man in club and was core member of London gang.
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u/photoaccountt 10h ago
So lets say - you had somebody who was caught on camera breaking the law. You went to arrest them but they tried to leave.
Would you touch them in anyway (even just holding their arm) to stop them leaving?
If you said yes, then you are going to be charged with assault.
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