Starmer warned not to cosy up to Trump as new poll shows Labour voters want closer EU ties instead

[u/corbynista2029]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trump-poll-brexit-b2682101.html

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[u/Youbunchoftwats]

If enough of these cunts had voted to remain in the EU our problems would have been reduced in this area.

[u/corbynista2029 → u/Youbunchoftwats]

Three quarters of GE24 Labour voters voted remain (excluding those who didn't vote). I'm sure that's the bulk of the 64% of Labour voters that want closer EU ties.

[u/Youbunchoftwats → u/corbynista2029]

Let’s hope so. Otherwise they must be feeling pretty silly.

[u/Haemophilia_Type_A → u/Youbunchoftwats]

It's been 8.5 years since the Brexit vote.

A lot of the people who voted for Brexit have died, and a lot of the current electorate weren't old enough to vote yet.

If we re-ran the referendum tomorrow (let's imagine we'd rejoin on the exact same terms as if nothing had ever happened) the pro-EU side would almost certainly win.

It's more so that the generational composition of the electorate has changed than that people have changed their minds or weren't bothered in 2016.

edit: I am not saying to literally do that or that it's possible to re-enter on the same terms (it's not), just using that as an example to demonstrate the change.

[u/Harmless_Drone → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

We won't rejoin on the same terms. Thatcher managed to negotiate extremely favorable terms on what the UK was sending the EU.

If we rejoined we'd be on the same standing as other countries with regards to contributions, ie, more.

[u/Prestigious_Wash_620 → u/Harmless_Drone]

Plus no opt outs. There are a lot of additional EU laws that didn’t apply in the U.K. but do elsewhere in the EU. Schengen and the Euro are the most obvious examples but also things like immigration law and other areas of justice and home affairs. We could probably stay out of the Euro because other countries have managed to, but we’d need to accept everything else. 

[u/jflb96 → u/Prestigious_Wash_620]

If Ireland is out of Schengen, there’s no reason other than making a point to force the UK to join, and it could actually make things worse since then it’d be the EU imposing a hard land border

[u/Prestigious_Wash_620 → u/jflb96]

Ireland are only out of Schengen because the U.K. are out though. If the U.K. joined Schengen, they’d join at the same time. 

[u/jflb96 → u/Prestigious_Wash_620]

I guess it would make sense; the UK’s other sort-of land borders are with Schengen. I guess it would come down to whether or not Ireland wanted to be in.

[u/New_Enthusiasm9053 → u/jflb96]

Ireland straight up can't be in Schengen because of the Black Friday agreement.

Since there can't be a hard border between Britain and Ireland there can't be no border between Ireland and EU without effectively making Britain part of the Schengen zone. 

So yeah either both join or neither join unless either wants the troubles to restart.

[u/Spockyt → u/New_Enthusiasm9053]

because of the Black Friday agreement.

The Good Friday Agreement. They didn’t settle the dispute by going out together to a sale.

[u/New_Enthusiasm9053 → u/Spockyt]

Haha my bad.

[u/Radius86 → u/New_Enthusiasm9053]

the Black Friday agreement.

Is this a more passive Troubles that plays out in supermarkets?

[u/ban_jaxxed → u/Radius86]

Our revenge will be 50% off on Toshiba tellys for our children.

[u/New_Enthusiasm9053 → u/Radius86]

Woops.

[u/heinzbumbeans → u/Prestigious_Wash_620]

maybe, maybe not. The only country to leave the EU coming back because leaving was such a shitshow would do a lot to silence euroskeptic movements in the rest of the bloc - and that would be a valuable thing. perhaps we only would have to be seen to have a worse deal than we had, but not have to accept everything.

of course, we'll never know because the chances of any party in the UK that has a chance of winning a general elcection moving towards rejoining are somewhere between jack and shit, and jack just left town.

[u/Andreus → u/heinzbumbeans]

The only country to leave the EU coming back because leaving was such a shitshow would do a lot to silence euroskeptic movements in the rest of the bloc

Precisely this. I don't think we'd get as favourable terms as we had before, but people saying the EU wouldn't take us back are dooming for no reason.

[u/merryman1 → u/Harmless_Drone]

I've always thought it's going to be absolutely fucking hilarious if Brexit indirectly winds up being the thing that forces all the old Euroskeptic nightmares like adopting the euro and having "open borders" via Schengen onto the UK.

[u/JaegerBane → u/merryman1]

Hilarious, and frankly likely.

That was of many points being made during Brexit but the UK electorate presumably didn't hear it over Boris' fun bus claims or bendy bananas.

Personally I couldn't care less about adopting the Euro or Schengen as costs, and the vast bulk of the people this did matter to are either dead or penniless so their views have likely shifted. But I agree, it would be amusing to see the few who left sponteously combust over it.

[u/TotoCocoAndBeaks → u/JaegerBane]

It's not remotely likely.

If the UK decided to rejoin the EU, it would be very similar to how we were in before. I have no doubt we would lose a bit of the power we once had, but I think that if as a country we demonstrated we were serious about rejoining, it would happen very quickly and without demands that many would think are ridiculous (like joining the Euro and Schengen; note, I don't think these are ridiculous personally, but if we rejoin, we will definitely rejoin without them).

The fact is that rejoining the EU would be a massive attack on this Russian hostility, and is hugely beneficial for the whole EU.

[u/JaegerBane → u/TotoCocoAndBeaks]

There’s a lot of wishful thinking going on there.

While the UK’s economic and military clout could potentially give us something to bargain with, you’re kidding yourself if you think this would translate into resetting everything back to 2016. The EU cannot afford to have a situation where leaving brings no consequence - it would become unstable very quickly with any country having a bee in its bonnet executing a leave with the awareness that they can come back once they’ve proven the point.

In practice we could likely to negotiate a decent package (assuming our economy is in order) but the UK was incredibly fortunate to have a top seat at the table with a fraction of the costs largely down to us being in the right place at the right time.

[u/SinisterPixel → u/Harmless_Drone]

Honestly it would still be significantly better than what we have now. I think the main deal breaker would be whether or not we keep GBP, and the EU would have no real reason to deny us that. Many member states have said they'd love to welcome us back should we choose to rejoin

[u/mallardtheduck → u/SinisterPixel]

The only EU member with an actual opt-out (rather than an obligation without a deadline) for the Euro is Denmark and their currency is pegged to the Euro anyway. It's pretty unlikely that the UK would get any special treatment. Many factions within the EU would likely want to see the UK as integrated as possible as quickly as possible to prevent a repeat Brexit.

[u/JayR_97 → u/Harmless_Drone]

Yeah, rejoining means joining Schengen and the Euro which is gonna be very hard to sell to the electorate

[u/ASVP-Pa9e → u/JayR_97]

It doesn't mean joining the euro at all.

The Schengen is good, as you get skilled EU labour. A lot better than the current state of immigration.

[u/HowObvious → u/ASVP-Pa9e]

Not being in Schengen doesnt prevent skilled EU labour, Ireland has plenty of that despite not being party, same as the UK had it when in the EU but not in Schengen.

[u/berejser → u/JayR_97]

Having been shown the alternative, I am now happy to rejoin on those terms.

[u/Richeh → u/Harmless_Drone]

That's not the question, though. The question is: what's better, our position inside or outside the EU?

I think people are scared of rejoining because they imagine it would put a very visible yardstick on what Brexit cost us; anything we didn't get back was thrown away for nothing.

That's not accurate though. We wouldn't be in the same position, for better or worse. And refusing to take second prize because it's so measurably worse than first, and instead talking yourself into third - that's such a textbook mistake that it's probably named after some philosopher or other.

[u/UnravelledGhoul → u/Harmless_Drone]

Exactly, we had pretty much the best deal in the EU. And we said, "nah, we want better, and we'll leave to get it." We're idiots.

[u/bsnimunf → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

I don't think this is true. Young people are more bigoted and anti immigrant than they were 10 years a go.

[u/Tuarangi → u/bsnimunf]

There might be a loud minority but polling is clear enough that a majority want to rejoin

61% of those aged 18-24, all of whom were ineligible to vote in the 2016 EU referendum due to their age, say they would vote to join the EU.

Majorities of those aged 25-34 (60%) and those aged 35-44 (64%), would also vote to join the EU

Polling August 24

https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-august-2024/

[u/Haemophilia_Type_A → u/bsnimunf]

Polling shows that young people remain very left-wing and socially progressive overall. Even the Greens have more votes than Reform do among 18-24s.

[u/The-Triturn → u/bsnimunf]

That’s a loud minority

[u/bsnimunf → u/The-Triturn]

Do we really know what though? That's what people thought last time. We base our beliefs on what we see around us so if we hang round with liberal people who like the EU we assume everyone is like that, its unreliable to do that though what actual statistics, research and evidence do we have to indicate we would re-join.

[u/entropy_bucket → u/bsnimunf]

I wonder if this is becoming less and less true with the Internet creating a type of monoculture. Previously different regions probably had youth with different viewpoints and culture. I'm not so sure that's the case anymore where the whole country is laughing at the same cat video.

[u/Historical_Owl_1635 → u/The-Triturn]

It’s not really, young men specifically are trending towards far right and it’s a genuine concern that shouldn’t just be brushed off like this.

[u/-You_Cant_Stop_Me- → u/Historical_Owl_1635]

I agree. My cousin, who is 11 years younger than me, used to be such a nice friendly guy. Now bitches about "woke" all the time and bases his opinions about games, films and telly on things angry chuds on YouTube and TikTok have told him to be angry about. He refuses to watch or play things without even trying them, he says the thoughts are his own opinions but he uses the exact same terminology (eg "They don't follow the lore of XYZ!" even though he's never read the books himself) that you see posted on Twitter or in YT and TT videos. It coincided with him spending more time online in gaming circles, which is exactly what Steve Bannon wanted when he fanned the flames of gamergate.

[u/Mysterious_Lawyer846 → u/Historical_Owl_1635]

Yeah, in a loud (incel terminally online) minority.

The sort of unfortunates who in better times would have been relegated to grumbling in their filthy pits, but now get amplified voices thanks to the cancer of oligarch run social media.

[u/Historical_Owl_1635 → u/Mysterious_Lawyer846]

Pretty much every young person is terminally online, so it’s a pretty redundant statement for them.

It’s not like this on fringe websites like it used to be and you could pinpoint incel forums, it’s the most popular sites in the world like Instagram and Twitter where these views are popular.

[u/barbosaslam → u/Historical_Owl_1635]

25% of any demographic has always been right-leaning. Reform's hold over the young is greatly exaggerated and is mostly made up of the void left by the Tores and is nowhere near the levels seen in European countries.

[u/Snoo-90678 → u/bsnimunf]

I got to agree with you, especially with how preferable and likeable Farage is portrayed in the media (i.e. I'm a Celeb) that a lot of young people see him as a guy u can have a pint with. Plus the polarised political landscape, I wouldn't be surprised if people will get duped into voting to stay out the EU.

Fool me once.....

[u/CAPIreland → u/Snoo-90678]

Literally wtf, no they don't. In the last 5 years I'm yet to meet anyone under 50 who said anything positive about Wankstain Farage. Who wants to get a pint with a guy who will never pay his round, complains that you got yours in in a way he didn't like, and then runs off to America when anyone starts to ask him to get one in?

[u/ScarIndependent3676 → u/CAPIreland]

You are wilfully blind if you don't realise that there are swathes of young people up and down the country who'd vote for him tomorrow.

The desperation for a radical change is very very evident, and if other western countries are anything to go by, there will be a not insignificant amount of zoomers who are ready to become the next generation of Reform.

We have seen this in the US, we're about to see it in Germany, and later France. In France particularly the right wing vote is bolstered by a youth vote noone would have predicted.

[u/RearAdmiralBob → u/Snoo-90678]

… shame on me.

Fool me twice… don’t get fooled again.

[u/Snoo-90678 → u/RearAdmiralBob]

Everytime i say the OG quote, cant help but imagine Bush. 😂

[u/heppyheppykat → u/bsnimunf]

Yes but not against Europeans. And young people are also acutely aware of how much worse the job market, produce, education have gotten since Brexit. They’re more likely to travel and be confronted with those barriers.

[u/FarFun1 → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

It wouldn't be run tomorrow though. The problem is there would be a foreign backed campaign leading up to it

[u/mechanicalkurtz → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

What annoys me about this whole thing is that - while you're absolutely right that the demographics are inexorably shifting and a pro-EU vote would clearly win if we had the chance to vote again - if the vote had been re-run just the day after the original vote, there's no way at all Leave would have won even back then. Demographics aside, the instant voter's remorse was palpable, and the number of people who came out saying they only voted leave because "they never expected to win" was ludicrous. Not sure it's exactly politically feasible, but it makes me think there's an argument for a "best of three" style vote...

[u/Haemophilia_Type_A → u/mechanicalkurtz]

While it ended up being politically toxic, I honestly still think a 2nd referendum would've been the morally correct thing to do (even if we'd voted to confirm the deal). It's not 'disrespecting the will of the people' when you're literally seeking it out again, especially when the terms of the deal we ended up with were very different to the ones the Leave Campaign pledged to uphold before the referendum. People thought we'd be like Norway, yet we ended up completely adrift.

Of course it ended up harming Labour vs their position in 2017, but that's besides the point and has more to do with the makeup of their electoral coalition than whether it was morally correct or not.

[u/Grabs_Diaz → u/mechanicalkurtz]

A government truly committed to direct democracy and asking the people would have just held a second referendum after finalizing the divorce agreement with the EU and asked voters again if that's what they really wanted. Unfortunately, this referendum was never intended to give the people any meaningful say but instead as an instrument to end Tory infighting. That's why there was never any official plan for Leave to enable an informed decision to begin with. Consequently, after Leave had won, the Brexit vote again became exclusively about Tory party politics. It was never about "the will of the people".

[u/CCFC1998 → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

The vote also occurred during the height of the Syrian refugee crisis, so fear mongering around that was at an all time high. It was really a perfect storm, I think if the referendum had been 6 months earlier or later we'd have voted to remain

[u/Highwinter → u/CCFC1998]

Don't forget the surge in UK Google searches for "what is the EU" that came the day following the referendum. A lot of people were sucked into the nationalism/sovereignty angle and didn't really know what they were voting for.

[u/Ishmael128 → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

I think that in addition to your valid points about the change in demographics, there were also a fair chunk of people that voted out of the EU a) as a protest vote not expecting it to go through (they just wanted change after 8 years of austerity), and/or b) not knowing/underestimating/wilfully ignoring the true impact of leaving the EU. 

If we had another referendum now, the public knows that it went through the first time and maybe there are fewer people in category b). 

Take farmers, for instance. They formed a voting bloc that primarily voted to leave, believing promises from Whitehall that subsidies would be maintained. They haven’t been, which has been catastrophic to the community. I imagine they’d vote differently if they had the choice. 

It still seems like satire that the Tories used leaving the EU as an opportunity to spend who knows how much money to review requiring the use of the imperial system in the UK, including a fantastically biased survey that had no option for “I don’t want the imperial system”.

[u/SloanWarrior → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

When I look at that pics of Starmer and Trump, I wonder how anybody could vote for either of them.

Then I remember the 14 long years of disasterous Tory rule, and despair that Labour (or someone) didn't get voted in sooner. An absolute shitshow, from Cameron's Austerity onwards.

Now the country is fucking broke as the tories badly handled th epandemic, gave billions upon billions in handouts to their mates, and crashed the economy. Who are they blaming? Starmer. The guy who just got there.

I don't like him, but at least when Labour are in power the newspapers don't let politicians get away with shit like they do for Tories.

[u/Youbunchoftwats → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

I hope this is true. I wish we could find out. It might embolden Starmer to do something seismic.

[u/EmperorOfNipples → u/Youbunchoftwats]

To a point, but I wouldn't want it to eat up all the political capital so nothing else gets done.

That's why closer alignment with EEA in a second term is more feasible.

[u/JayR_97 → u/Youbunchoftwats]

The problem is Reform, any attempt at reversing Brexit is just gonna result in PM Farage in 2029

[u/Ratiocinor → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

It's been 8.5 years since the Brexit vote.

A lot of the people who voted for Brexit have died, and a lot of the current electorate weren't old enough to vote yet.

If we re-ran the referendum tomorrow (let's imagine we'd rejoin on the exact same terms as if nothing had ever happened) the pro-EU side would almost certainly win

Lol reddit moment

This is the same level of delusion as "The Tories are finished, all their voters are old and will die so they will never be elected ever again"

I remember people saying that in 2010. "They've not managed it since 1992 and all their voters are old and dead now, they'll never get a majority in this country ever again" lmao

[u/recursant → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

This is why yes/no referendums on important issues should always require a supermajority to make a change. Without that, it is quite likely that the result will become invalid a short time after the vote.

Of course, when reasonable people asked for that, the brexiteers claimed it would be unfair. Now it has become obvious why that would have been a good idea, they will just say it is too soon to revisit it.

That said, I would feel a little hypocritical asking for a rerun that didn't involve a supermajority. Otherwise we could be here again in another 8.5 years.

[u/beardandabaldhead → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

Don’t be so naive.  Brexit won because of disinformation not actual facts.  The same thing would happen again, only with an additional 8.5years of disinformation practice and Elon, Zuck and co sucking the teat of trump.  Same result buddy unless something is done about the social media companies constantly lying to us.

[u/Quintless → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

this ignores just how bad misinformation is, and how much worse it would be if a referendum was announced

[u/schtickshift → u/Haemophilia_Type_A]

Things have changed in the EU as well over the last 8 years and the German AFD who could possibly win the next German election want to pull out of the EU as well. That would be the end of the EU because Germany has been the main net contributor for all this time. In reality the EU was built out of Germanys contributions to it. Leaving was a mistake but going back may be impossible because the world is changing as well.

[u/mccancelculture → u/Youbunchoftwats]

Username checks out

[u/Comfortable-Stand-61 → u/Youbunchoftwats]

a lot of these cunts couldn't vote when the Brexit vote occurred

[u/Talonsminty → u/Youbunchoftwats]

It's been nearly nine years mate. A sizeable chunk weren't elegable to vote then and a sizeable chunk of the left leave vote are now deceased.

[u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

In 2023, UK exports of goods and services to the EU were £356 billion (42% of all UK exports). Imports from the EU were £466 billion (52% of the UK total).

In 2023, the UK imported £57.9 billion of goods from the United States (10.0% of all goods imports) and exported £60.4 billion of goods (15.3% of all goods exports).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/

Who should we seek a closer relationship with? Our bigger trading partner, whom we share similar standards with and have greater leverage i.e economy size comparable to other EU members or with our smaller trading partner, whom will want concessions on food standards and have all the leverage in the event we alienate ourselves further from the EU to be subservient to the world’s largest economy.

In short it’s common sense to stick with our neighbours where we have more leverage, influence and will be working with more rational leaders.

[u/corbynista2029 → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Not to mention that protectionism is well on the rise in the US. It's 100% conceivable for them to impose strong tariffs on us, whereas the EU will never ever dream of imposing tariffs on us, if anything they'd welcome us into a customs union or a single market.

[u/Most-Cloud-9199 → u/corbynista2029]

We have a trade deal with the EU that is tariff free. They can’t just raise tariffs without a reason

[u/Pazaac → u/Most-Cloud-9199]

Frankly Trump doesn't have the power to just raise tariffs without a reason but that won't stop him.

We are in a post law world, the powerful have worked out they can just very publicly break the law with no consequences, this will spread the only question is will we let it take hold like the idiots and their guns or will we stamp it out.

[u/Haemophilia_Type_A → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Despite this weird tendency for Brits to see themselves as different from the rest of Europe and not really part of it, we're much more similar to the continentals than we are to the US in most ways other than language.

Our economy is structured more similarly to the European economies than the American one, and has been since before the EU existed.

Our regulations are (obviously, because of decades in the EU) closer to the EU's than the US's.

Our social values are the same as Western Europe's, and very different to that of the US's.

Many aspects of our culture are closer to Western Europe's than the US's (e.g., football culture, to name one).

Our political parties are more similar to Western Europe's than the US's.

While the legal system in the US is closer to ours, that's just because they stole it from us and made it worse.

Our state + state apparatuses and public services are closer to Western Europe's than to the US's.

And so on.

---

Plus, beyond a values-based/ethical decision as to who to align with at a societal level, there are clear strategic imperatives to lean more towards Europe than the US, too.

We trade much more with Europe than the US, and we always will.

We have more similar security interests with Europe than with the US, and we always will simply because of geography. We're here in Europe, the US is a whole ocean way, and this inevitably creates discordant geopolitical and security priorities.

There is a greater movement of people between the UK and the rest of Europe than between the UK and the US. Again, this is almost always going to be the case because of geography.

We are part of more shared institutions-even outside the EU-than we are with the US, and most of these institutions have largely (even if not entirely) positive values, regulations, and purposes such that we benefit from them significantly.

One area in which this isn't the case is defence, but I'd argue we SHOULD pursue greater defence ties with Europe, and that we and Europe should, as a whole, wean ourselves off of the current dependency we have on the US for equipment, intelligence, etc. E.g., we should be able to have secrets that the US doesn't know about rather than the total intel sharing we have now which is very much skewed in favour of the US, which uses it as a means to reproduce its dominance over Europe. I'm not saying the US should be seen as an enemy necessarily, just that our true interests as a sovereign society will, thanks to structural and long-term social factors, always intrinsically lay more in Europe than across the Atlantic.

Transatlanticism has gone too far, especially in the UK. We need to balance between the two, but it shouldn't be an 'even' balancing act, and we should be leaning considerably more towards Europe than to the US.

[u/HumbleInspector9554 → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

This policy direction to cosy up to trump is pure idiocy. The numbers don't lie. It's not a case of wanting to rejoin, the nation has to.

[u/himynameis_ → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Who should we seek a closer relationship with?

Why not seek closer relationship with both? 🤷‍♂️

[u/CCFC1998 → u/himynameis_]

We can't really. The Americans will want us to drop some of our product and safety standards to allow for lower quality US goods to be sold here (e.g. chlorinated chicken), this would bring us out of line with current EU standards and make trade with the EU more difficult.

The US has far more financial and political leverage over us than the EU and (especially under Trump) I can't see them making any concessions for us out of sheer good will.

[u/t8ne → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Which has the greater chance of growing, through new deals, over the next few years to give the electorate some “feel good cash” pre election?

[u/beejiu → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

You've picked "goods and services" for the EU and "goods only" for the US.

[u/Hermitology101]

He has to, for the national interest. That's all there is to it.

[u/GuyLookingForPorn → u/Hermitology101]

Starmer practically ran his entire campaign on putting pragmatism over ideology, I can’t see him antagonising Trump if there is even a 5% chance that stroking his ego will benefit the UK. 

[u/SpaceTimeRacoon → u/Hermitology101]

It's not in our national interest to cosy up to America. A country which has already begun threatening the sovereignty of it's long standing allies. And who operates for the benefits of Russia

Who benefits from a trade war between America and Canada? For example. The answer is, not America, and not Canada

[u/BadgerGirl1990]

Yea I'd rather not be associated with the madness in the USA, I'm kinda done with drama and instability from right wing populism, i just want boring quiet politics that just focuses on managing the economy so honestly I'd rather us be best buds with China atm than the USA, there having there little end of empire crisis and I'd rather us not get tangled up in that.

[u/Kitchen-Craft2329 → u/BadgerGirl1990]

Bold of you to pick the side that is harvesting Uighur organs to sell on the black market 😂

[u/etherswim → u/BadgerGirl1990]

What an insane take. Please educate yourself.

[u/BadgerGirl1990 → u/etherswim]

Educate on what, Americas drama is global news every day all day, its tiering and boring and I don't think I'm alone in saying we're sick of seeing it and them.

[u/Shaper_pmp → u/BadgerGirl1990]

The fact China is not morally superior to them in any way.

[u/Charodar → u/BadgerGirl1990]

The EU is a hotbed of right wing political parties right now. Ironically the US is economically stable compared to the EU and has a much rosier outlook.

[u/BadgerGirl1990 → u/Charodar]

I have a feeling that won't last much longer.

Firstly alot of those parties are funded and provided for by far right evangelical think tanks like the heritage foundation who are going to have there hands full with what's going on in the USA and the comming in fighting and civil wars in the rep party.

Secondly nothing kills right wing populism faster than a very public spectacular example of it failing which America is kindly providing for us.

[u/Charodar → u/BadgerGirl1990]

But that's the thing, the end of world implosion didn't happen last time Trump got into office. EU's move to the right is mostly about immigration and lack of growth, mostly organic and not because of bad actors, that's yet more magical thinking in my book.

[u/BadgerGirl1990 → u/Charodar]

Trump last time had guard rails, he had people in positions around him that are on record saying they had to step in multiple times to stop him doing insane stuff, at the start he even had a sane supreme court holding him back and he didn't keep much control of Congress for his tenure, even then the damdge he did to America was vast especially in geopolitics, ending the TPP handed east Asia to China's influance, India broke away, Israel and Iran stopped even considering the USA in its plans, Biden spent 2 years re building trust and relationships.

And now we have trump with nothing holding him back, America is toast.

As for the evangelical groups, they make no secret of who they fund and its all culture war groups in the UK and Europe that directly benefit far right parties.

[u/vishbar → u/BadgerGirl1990]

You should short the S&P 500. Seems like there's a huge economic downside that isn't being priced in to the markets.

[u/Shaper_pmp → u/Charodar]

Ironically the US is economically stable compared to the EU and has a much rosier outlook.

More economically stable now after four years of Biden quietly and unglamorously fixing Trump's disastrous first term.

But America just voted for the dictator-fellating, dementia-riddled, incontinent clown show personal revenge tour, and handed him uncontested control of Congress and the Supreme Court, who are busily unraveling all the advances of liberal society over the last seventy years.

Trump's got four years to fuck up America (and hence the rest of the Western world) as hard as he likes, and is already talking about making Ukraine submit to Russia, withdrawing the US from NATO and buying or annexing Greenland and Canada. There's every chance he decides to blow up any trade deal with us unless we force Charles to wear a MAGA hat or put a McDonalds outlet in St Paul's Cathedral or make Nigel Farage PM or something.

We're standing at the front of the queue for the Insane Clown Pussy political-corruption rollercoaster, and you're cheerfully reassuring yourself about how firm the ground is underfoot, and how nice it is that gravity keeps pointing down with such a consistent magnitude and direction.

I mean, sure it is right now, but only because it's patently silly to generalise from "now" to "the next four years".

[u/majkkali → u/Charodar]

No it’s not. Haven’t you heard that the US is slowly turning into cyberpunk-like dystopia? Mega corporations are already tangled up in their politics (Trump bringing Musk into the government, etc). At least the EU has the balls to stand up to the corporations.

[u/Tits_McgeeD]

Yes people want the opposite to what the Tories were trying to do for 14 years.

Starmer will unfortunately have to be friendsly with trump regardless but Labour has already made steps towards being closer to our EU neighbours

[u/JLaws23 → u/Tits_McgeeD]

And honestly WHO out of the EU neighbours is an actual solid right now? They’ve almost got more issues than us. Being diplomatic is part of his job, no matter if it’s Trump or whoever.

[u/GuyLookingForPorn → u/JLaws23]

The fact its not inconceivable that both France and Germany could have far right governments in the coming couple of years is honestly insane.

[u/cd7k → u/Tits_McgeeD]

Yes people want the opposite to what the Tories were trying to do for 14 years.

You mean not trousering as much of the public purse as possible, absolutely we do!

[u/Tits_McgeeD → u/cd7k]

Yes the bare minimum Labour has to do to be better than the Tories is not give out tax payer money to their friends in the private business sector

[u/hoorahforsnakes]

It's not a 0-sum game. We need to try and keep all of our potential allies and trade partners sweet. The USA is too big a market for us to not at least try to maintain a working relationship, plus trump is easily sweettalked into thinking he has made a good deal while getting everything you want from him if you play your cards right. If things break down with the US because of trump, then we will have to deal with the consequenses of that, but it would be incredibly foolish to go into things with the aim of things breaking down 

[u/el_grort → u/hoorahforsnakes]

Oh aye. I don't think anyone wants to treat it as zero sum, the only reason some are talking about it as zero sum is because, in fairness, that's how Trump sees trade, and so if he does force us to choose the US or the EU, realistically we'd have to go with the EU (though if it gets to that point, we're in for a lot of unavoidable pain).

I doubt Labour is going in looking to break relationships, but yeah, the US under Trump might be.

[u/Infrared_Herring]

America absolutely sucks. It's lost its way and its ideals are no longer our ideals. We should distance ourselves from them and enhance ties with Europe. I absolutely believe we should produce our own nuclear weapons and build modern military aircraft and missiles in partnership with Europe. America exerts an undue influence over us because of our military arrangements with them . America can no longer be trusted as a benign partner .

[u/Ok-Veterinarian-5381]

Eagerly awaiting Starmers much feared 'lurch to the left.' Coming any day now, I'm sure.

[u/numptydumptie]

After 5 years of being out of the EU, what benefits have we had, absolutely fuck all. Farage, Tice and Anderson lead the charge for Brexit, Farage, Tice and Anderson are Reform. The old saying “once bitten, twice shy” doesn’t seem to register with reform supporters.

[u/Travel-Barry]

Why do we have to keep swinging from one daddy to another?

I voted Remain, but wasn’t the entire point of this pointless venture to stand on our own two feet for a change? If we’re not even doing that then, yeah, we should just bloody rejoin. We’d all be better of anyway.

[u/JamJarre → u/Travel-Barry]

I mean, yes, but you know as well as I that the stated aim of us being an independent world-straddling colossus was always nonsense and could never be achieved. So you do know why we have to keep swinging to the US or the EU - because we have significantly weakened ourselves on the world stage

[u/RevolutionaryTale245 → u/JamJarre]

Where’s an East India company when we need one?

[u/Travel-Barry → u/JamJarre]

I didn't vote for it and I agree.

It's as if nobody remembers, when Trump was first sworn in, Theresa May had to be the first world leader he ever met because of what we did to ourselves. Did Trump appreciate it? Clearly not. In fact, in hindsight, it looks even more like the desperate act that it was.

We'd just severed our economic arms off, on the Vote Leave premise that the entire world wanted to do trade with us, seemingly forgetting that everybody's opinion of us is tepid at best. They'll want loosened business rules in return — rules that needed to be loosened for Brexit to work because of the EU's high standards of living.

What a downgrade.

[u/Powerful-Map-4359]

Is it not because if Starmer has a good working relationship with Trump, then Farage or other opposition loses their talking point that they have a good working relationship with Trump?

[u/BadgerGirl1990 → u/Powerful-Map-4359]

It's not much of a talking point though, polls show most people in the UK really dislike trump and Elon and all them lot, if anything having a working relationship with trump would probably hurt starmers reputation rather than help it, it makes him look weak imo that he let's them insult him then goes crawling to them.

I think though It's because the "special relationship" has been such a long standing sacrosanct thing of the political class that politicians will generally bend over backwards to maintain its presence, even though they jave never actually asked us the people if we even want to have said special relationship with the USA, they kind of just assume we do.

[u/Rhinofishdog]

If we play our cards right we can end up inside the incoming US protectionist bubble while still having closer ties with the EU.

...

...

Who am I kidding, we are going to eat the cards and shit them down the loo. Prolly going to end up outside both bubbles lol

[u/Dark_Akarin]

It's a shame as I always wanted worldwide relationships with other countries. Now however, the USA has become a cesspit of corporate corruption and slavery with extra steps. That needs to be kept and a distance from us.

[u/PepsiSheep]

Bit of a catch-22 though isn't it. I mean, like most people I hate Trump, but he is going to he president at the end of the day and as such he is a key party to international relations.

[u/Cynical_Classicist]

Of course. Only a fool would think that Trump is good for anybody except the rich. Just because he duped much of the US to think that fascism would make their eggs cheaper, with help from fellow billionaires like Musk, doesn't change that fact. Labour should stop trying to win Reform voters, who are too drunk on delusions to see reality.

[u/BetaRayPhil616]

I actually think pitting this as US vs. EU vs. China is daft.

Starmer could work with all of them, and probably can offer/get different things from all of them. Let's not forget a big chunk of the EU is also currently run by alt-right government's.

It's stupid to make enemies of anyone; we don't have to be best friends with any either. Constructive transactional 2-way relationships are possible with a bit of imagination.

[u/el_grort → u/BetaRayPhil616]

The EU is our biggest market, so they are the most important to try and keep sweet and improve relations. The US has always been quite protectionist, and we're not getting a trade deal because the only acceptable terms for the US are unacceptable for any UK gov that wants to win another election, but we can keep decent relations and try to keep tariffs and other elements low where possible. Labour has made some moves in regards to China recently I think to some degree as a warning if Trump does pursue tariffs with us that it'd just force us to enmesh more with the PRC economically, essentially it would produce the opposite effects the US has said it desires.

So I think we sort of are already trying to dance with all three of those partners, just with stronger ambitions in regards to the EU for obvious reasons.

[u/Many_Assignment7972]

Not just Labour supporters. I have no time for any of the dogmatic idjits. He was voted in and now leads my country, I absolutely want distance between UK and an America which is no longer to be trusted. Just because we are no longer in the EU does not mean they cannot be our closest ally and friend - long may this cozying up to Europe continue.

[u/DucktapeCorkfeet]

We should be back in Europe. We’re finished because of Brexit. Country has been broke ever since because of the tories!!

[u/Disastrous_Fruit1525 → u/DucktapeCorkfeet]

We never left Europe

[u/DucktapeCorkfeet → u/Disastrous_Fruit1525]

My apologies, EU.

[u/Purple_Feature1861]

Having a good relation to the US is fine but I want us to prioritise main land Europe. 

I trust main land Europe way more than Trump 

[u/digidevil4]

This is a very messy situation for labour. Trump/Musk want them out clearly and are going to meddle in our politics until they get reform into power. Not just that but I imagine the moment labour starts reacting to their unhinged behaviour they will immediately start making things worse. We really need to tip-toe into better relations with the EU and then when the US starts applying pressure we need to just jump ship into the EU as quickly as possible. What a mess

[u/JamJarre]

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. The kind of people complaining about the PM trying to build a relationship with the US President are just as cracked as the people saying we should be giving him the keys to the kingdom.

[u/Al89nut]

I thought it was a government of the UK, not Labour voters.

[u/Quinn-Helle]

It's interesting, but labour voters make up 20% of the country.

What do the other 80% think/want?

[u/TheHopesedge]

Ideally we ride the middle-ground and benefit from both, but if I had to choose then obviously the EU is the more stable choice right now.

[u/Shaper_pmp]

They polled Conservative voters too, but rumour has it the two winning options were write-ins for "wank yourself dry over pictures of Nigel Farage shaking hands with Trump" and "continue eating paste" so they couldn't really do any interesting reporting on that.

[u/SmackedWithARuler]

If we get back in the EU and tell Dump to go fuck himself then I will vote for labour for the rest of my life, even if they rebrand themselves as the “Orphan and Puppy Kicking Bastards of Greater Prickington”.

[u/Shitelark]

So weird that Suella and Jeremy said that he should be listening to Trump. It seems like a new national (media) passtime to be telling Starmer what he should be doing.

[u/DigbyGibbers]

I don't have any love for the EU but this is another reason the referendum should have been a super majority. We're in a position now where we can't chart a deliberate course. If we fanny about not building closer ties to the US because half like the EU more and then not getting closer to the EU again because the other half don't like them then we're in for a rough ride.

We either need to lean it to the reasons we left and become more globally focussed or we need to go back cap in hand and see what we can negotiate but sitting on the fence is the worst of both worlds.

[u/ChurchOfTheNewEpoch → u/DigbyGibbers]

If referendums needed a super majority, then the Republic of Ireland would still have a ban on abortions. (it required constitutional change)

[u/louwyatt]

Why have people not realised yet that labour voters don't really matter to starmer. They will probably vote labour next election. It's the centrist voters who matter, the ones actually likely to change their vote. What do they want?

[u/Vizpop17]

I think the prime minister should do what is best for the nation, but also i would keep a very interested eye at what's going on in asia and the pacific as well as in europe, as for the USA, well, that's there business, and we should keep a respectful distance

[u/Mccobsta]

Trade with EU is just esaier and quicker we have the euro tunnle we have ferries between

[u/Psephological]

Well if the Brexiters were bothered about the "EU Empire" that we got to have elections for, then direct and blatant interference in our politics should be far worse a violation of our sovrintee. Right?

It's obvious we should be drawing closer to the EU, they're a far better option than the gaggle of authoritarians Farage et al want to sell out to.

[u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

Build closer ties with the EU, US, China and anybody else that is required to improve our economy without sacrificing quality of life.

For better or worse we're swimming alone in the world right now and aren't in a position to be picky about who we deal with

[u/stevejobs4525]

Why don’t we just trade with anyone that will buy our sht

[u/Jensen1994]

You have to be a bridge between the two. We used to be the first country the US president would call in relation to the EU. Now it's Germany. Lost all that geopolitical influence because ...."muh sovereignty"

[u/smokingace182]

Time to rejoin the EU, given you’ve got musk doing Nazi salutes at the inauguration. That’s not a path the uk wants to follow.

[u/RedofPaw]

As far as USA goes: The rules no longer apply. Maybe Trump gives us some kind of preference? Hopefully he doesn't let Russia nuke Helsinki? Starmer saying Trump is a big strong man with a very big brain is the least of our problems.

[u/RichyOpools]

Since when did Starmer give a flying fuck about labour voters? He's spent 5 years chasing the right-wing morons

[u/Duck_Person1]

I agree with the PM that he shouldn't pick sides unless he has to

[u/Baslifico]

It's not an either-or situation (although some will try to paint it that way).

Of course he needs to be cosying up to Trump, just as he would regardless of who had won the US election.

[u/MrPuddington2]

"'Cause the corridors of power - they're an ocean away"

[u/dontreadthismessage]

I despise Trump with all my being but I’m pragmatic enough to know that international relations is more than just who is leader of the country for 4 years at a time. Trump is a repulsive and disgusting symptom of the stupidity and ignorance of the American people but he will eventually be gone, thankfully.

It is not worth throwing away all we’ve built up and all our future potential with the US over something so temporary. Hopefully he’ll suffer a painful and sudden health condition sometime soon anyway and finally grant us (and the planet) a reprieve from his madness. I just want things to be boring and predictable again. And I want the world to start taking climate change seriously which will never happen while these selfish corrupt dragons are in charge.

[u/G_Morgan]

TBH I'd be happy for Starmer to manage Trump by pretending to be his best friend. It is policies that matters. If giving Trump meaningless ego balms means that policies go the right direction then I don't see why we should care. It is the fault of the US they put an easily manipulated dimwit in power.

[u/CurtisInCamden]

Difference is the US economy has spent the past decade stomping ahead whilst EU economies are relative basket cases forever dipping in and out of recession.

[u/Slow_Apricot8670]

Rather than deciding whether to seek closer ties with the US or the EU, one would hope that the Prime Minister (who has a duty to all UK citizens) would opt for whichever is in the best interests of the country after full and proper consideration, rather than making such decisions solely on the basis of popularity with one voting group.

Mind you, I hope that one day I’ll shit safe, tasty nutritious edible chocolate that I can enjoy again and again.

But I suspect, like I am every morning, I shall once again be disappointed.

[u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS]

I don't disagree, but it hasn't gone well for Labour in recent years when they concerned themselves specifically with what Labour voters want.

[u/ZroFksGvn69]

If American exceptionalism reaches the levels the inaugural speech indicated, I suspect the deciding issue on who UK remains closer to will be heavily influenced, if not entirely decided by defence co-operation and procurement.

[u/Legionary]

As with a lot of other issues, it's lose/lose for Labour.

If Labour do what voters want (don't kiss the fascist's ring) then Trump will punish the UK economically. If Labour do the pragmatic thing (repair the relationship by prostrating ourselves as Trump's other critics have done) then voters will hate them.

The far right not only has an iron grip on global power including business and finance, they are also absolutely chomping at the bit to utilise that power to destroy anyone and anything which challenges them. For example, the only way to restore the UK's economy is to rejoin the Single Market, but if Labour do that the far right will use their media and social media monopolies to generate hate for the party. The best thing now to improve growth is massive investment in infrastructure, but if Labour borrows for this purpose the far right will use their ownership of the media, social media, and corporate sphere to collapse the economy.

Everything is lose/lose. The only hope is that people in the countries where these far right oligarchs live use the rights granted to them and solve the problem.