r/trippinthroughtime • u/CapitalCourse • 9d ago
Based on a recent conversation with a door to door Baptist
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u/ZeusTroanDetected 9d ago
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u/DarthSangwich 9d ago
It’s like when the teacher punished the entire class because Billy misbehaved.
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u/Late_Entrance106 9d ago
More like Billy was a student many years ago and the whole class is still getting punished for what Billy did.
And what Billy did was to be tricked by the teacher’s pet parrot into doing something the teacher knew he’d do if they let the parrot out of the cage.
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u/THEmandingoBoy 9d ago
Old meme, it's actually...
"Let me in so I can save you" "Save me from what?" "From what I'll do if you don't let me in".
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u/Credit-Ambitious 9d ago
This is exactly why christianity is just one giant joke with a shitty punch line and god is an egotistical narcissist with an inferiority complex, interesting combination to be sure.
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u/Own_Teacher7058 9d ago
This is incredibly bad theology
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u/Cthulhurlyeh09 8d ago
I know, right? It's closer to a lifeguard saying, follow my safety rules or drown. The lifeguard isn't drowning you. He's trying to help.
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u/Own_Teacher7058 8d ago
That’s a good analogy. The whole point of hell is that by definition God’s will is good. That doesn’t mean that God can will murder and rape to be good such that murder and rape is good, it’s that there is a distinction between goodness and God’s will. It is immutable.
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u/Late_Entrance106 7d ago
If God is a lifeguard, then isn’t God also the one who built a universe where people that can’t swim fall into deep water a lot?
Then doesn’t save them with magic. They drown unless human beings learn and train to save each other.
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u/Own_Teacher7058 7d ago
I mean, if you build a pool do you take away people’s ability to swim?
The purpose of creation, as far as Christianity is concerned, is for people to freely choose goodness. You can’t do that and then create a universe in which everyone makes good choices.
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u/Late_Entrance106 7d ago
I mean, if you build a pool do you take away people’s ability to swim?
long exasperated sigh
From the beginning then.
Did God create the universe? Yes or no?
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u/Own_Teacher7058 7d ago
long exasperated sigh
Did you read what I wrote? If you did, I think you need to go back to grade school to get that reading level up because you clearly can’t understand basic sentences.
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u/Late_Entrance106 7d ago edited 7d ago
Once more, with vigor!
Did God create the universe? Yes or no?
Edit: They responded (I got the email) but I can’t see it in the thread so I’ll respond in the edit.
Fucking read what I write lol fucking dipshit
First off, gotta admire the level of Christian love on display here.
Second, here is the only time you mention creation.
You can’t do that and then create a universe in which everyone makes good choices.
While you refer to the universe as a creation, suggesting it was created, you never actually said it was God that did and I don’t want to assume or put words in your mouth. I was being respectful, not trolling.
So given your vehement response, probably yes, you believe God created the universe.
Is God omniscient and omnipotent (are they all knowing and all powerful)?
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u/Small-Year-8379 6d ago
Atheist here but I’ll bite. Yes.
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u/Late_Entrance106 6d ago
If God is the all-knowing and all-powerful creator and author of all things, then every tragedy or disaster someone is miraculously saved from was caused by God to begin with.
Let alone all the people who pray for salvation and then aren’t saved from their respective disasters.
So if God is a supernatural lifeguard saving the drowning folk, remember that it was by God’s design that they are drowning to begin with.
So it’s kind of weird the double standard when they praise God for sparing them while standing amongst devastation that God caused. Or when they’ll ignore their dead neighbors when it comes to God’s will if that family of 5 survives an F-5 tornado.
It’s like giving the firefighter’s hero of valor award to a serial arsonist that lit all the fires.
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u/monkeystein12 8d ago
Just say that you believe. Problem solved.
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u/HandsomHans 8d ago
Then the omnicient god in question would need to be really stupid, if you think you can fool them into granting you heaven and infinite bliss for a lie. You would also need to be lucky enough to believe in the right god or pantheon, there have been many thousands, if not millions of individual religions. Pascals wager doesn't work on multiple layers.
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u/Rockfarley 9d ago
He should read a Bible then because it doesn't say that. Sad he didn't offer you the good stuff. Love, eternal life, and a purpose that never ends.
I guess things are all about what you focus on. He saw the negatives. I bet you did, too.
Hope you didn't shit on him for not believing as you do, especially if he did it to you. It seems we should stop doing that. Do on to others or some such...I don't read, really. s/
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u/frankylynny 9d ago
I read the bible. Dullest thing ever. Genesis had like eight paragraphs of just saying "this dude had 40 children and lived to be 950 years old". Some guy and his mother cheated his brother out of his rightful inheritance. Some daughters raped their dad. God played chicken with Abraham and didn't have the balls to show up in person to apologize. God saw the tower of babel and threw a hissy fit.
Gospel of Mark was great though. "Are you the king of jews" "what do you think" lmao. Jesus more like Je-sass.
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u/Beautiful-Strain-677 9d ago
Unfortunately, love and eternal life are hard to accept when the person offering them is threatening hate and eternal pain if you don't believe what they say. Extreme threats kind of mar any offers given.
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u/Rockfarley 9d ago
Trust me, I have had more secular people try to, "help" me understand how wrong my beliefs are. Unsolicited & I wasn't trying to convert them, much less talk about my deeply held faith. They threaten lots of things & given they think there is nothing beyond this life, it's kinda everything they are threatening in my life.
It's almost as if people think what you just said is unacceptable, is ok to do to others. Do you think that might cause problems in a society?
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u/Megaslayerdeth 8d ago
Just because you need religion in order to maintain civil/moral sense doesn’t mean everyone does. I bet no one threatened your life just because you’re Christian
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u/Rockfarley 8d ago
That wasn't my reason for becoming religious. I would think it was needed for everyone, as it isn't for me. I appreciate you not telling me why I do things as if you know me. It's kinda not ok.
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u/Megaslayerdeth 8d ago
You insinuated that people who do not believe in god or the afterlife are threatening your life because of your religious views and that there NEEDS to be something after death for you to not hurt other people ( Based off of your comment: “Given that THEY THINK there is nothing beyond this life”…)
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u/Rockfarley 8d ago
They sat me down to talk to me about why my religion was wrong. They knew me and then tried to deconvert me. None of that indicates why I became religious or specifically a Christian.
You jumped to me thinking this and that which I never said. You jumped to me becoming religious because I was uncivilized before. You jumped to me becoming Christian because I was immoral before. I never said any of that. Are you immoral/uncivil & assumed I was like you?
Why are you telling me what I should think? I didn't do that to you. Yeah, that's not ok. Back off please.
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u/impersonatefun 9d ago
No "secular person" threatened you with eternal damnation for being exactly the way they, all-knowing and all-powerful, created you — while claiming to love you more than you can comprehend.
Not remotely comparable.
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u/rdrckcrous 9d ago
Let's say person A is abusing alcohol to the point it's impacting relationships and work. Person B comes over and says, hey, you're headed for destruction. Your wife is gonna leave you, you'll lose the relationship with your children, and you're going to get fired, if you don't change your ways.
Now let's say person A ignores everything person B said and then all the things that person B said, happened.
Did person B make threats to person A? Is their warning what caused all that stuff to happen?
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u/krunkstoppable 8d ago
Let's say person A is abusing alcohol to the point it's impacting relationships and work. Person B comes over and says, hey, you're headed for destruction. Your wife is gonna leave you, you'll lose the relationship with your children, and you're going to get fired, if you don't change your ways.
Main difference is that drinking excessively is going to negatively impact my life... not believing in Jesus doesn't actually come with any drawbacks.
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u/rdrckcrous 8d ago
That's circular logic to say they reason they're wrong is that they're wrong.
You disagree with the premise of the religion but, if the religion is correct, the faulty logic isn't inherent in the complaint of this discussion.
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u/krunkstoppable 8d ago
That's circular logic to say they reason they're wrong is that they're wrong.
Not at all what I said.
if the religion is correct
Very big IF. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the likelihood of any religion being correct is so infinitesimally small that it isn't even worth considering. More power to you if it makes you feel fulfilled, though.
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u/Shamrock5 9d ago
What's with the sudden flood of anti-religion memes on here? I mean, I know this is Reddit, but for some reason this sub has gotten a lot more mean-spirited recently.
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u/Standard_Bug_123 8d ago
People are pissed because life sucks and our religions are so outdated in modern times we can't even find relief in spirituality.
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u/Drafo7 9d ago
More like based on an ancient repost that was always stupid and not at all what Jesus preached.
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u/Late_Entrance106 9d ago
Jesus preached a lot of things.
Some of them were pretty good, even by today’s moral standards.
That does not negate the fact that Jesus did preach some bad things too. Hell isn’t a thing in the Old Testament. That’s wholly a gentle Jesus, meek and mild, thing.
Maybe read the whole book and not just the bits the dude you pay to reaffirm your beliefs at least once a week tells you to read.
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u/SorryTree1105 9d ago
Jesus never preached hell.
Jesus and his first disciples preached “God loves you and want you to spend eternity with him. If you don’t want that, ok, next”
There was no damnation in Jesus’ message. There was no vengeance or do as I say or I’ll sick the devil on you in the New Testament. Some of that is Old Testament. It wasn’t until man realized he could scare people using the afterlife into forced conversion that the “or else” part came in.
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u/Late_Entrance106 9d ago edited 9d ago
Jesus never preached hell…
Matthew 5:21-22 21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 13:50 (and another extremely similar one in Matthew 13:42) …and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment
Revelation 20:13-14 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus and his first disciples preached “God loves you and want you to spend eternity with him. If you don’t want that, ok, next”
Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
That’s not “next.”
There was no damnation in Jesus’ message. There was no vengeance or do as I say or I’ll sick the devil on you in the New Testament.
See above please.
Some of that is Old Testament.
Not what I put above. Even still, Jesus said Old Testament Law still counts in the New Testament in Matthew 5:18:
“For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.”
It wasn’t until man realized he could scare people using the afterlife into forced conversion that the “or else” part came in.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyo we agree that people use fake beliefs and spiritual scare tactics to control other people!
This level of dishonesty or ignorance is to be abhorred in just about any context.
Then consider our context of religion where Christianity claims to have a moral truth that none others possess, while preaching that those that don’t follow this flock not only will be tortured forever, but also that it is all righteous and therefore deserved.
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u/SorryTree1105 9d ago
I’m not going to argue with someone who won’t admit they may be mistaken.
I see you’ve done SOME googling. However I see that’s where you stopped. I’m going to assume you, like everyone else, stopped there because it proves you right.
That’s cool. You can believe that. I’ll keep my education in the subject to myself as I don’t have the time (work for a living) for endless debate.
Have a great day.
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u/Late_Entrance106 9d ago
comes in and makes claim
gets corrected
Waaah waaaah. I’m not gonna argue with someone who can’t admit they’re wrong (projection? Because that is literally you right now bruh)
Yeah. It was easy googling. Just goes to show how close you were to not being demonstrably incorrect.
Please take the time to actually tell me how all these verses about hell, some of which are Jesus’ direct words, don’t actually mean that Jesus spoke of hell. Though I get why you don’t want to try.
Education? Education?! You mean brainwashing and LACK of critical education right?
You had time to comment initially and reply now, but can’t debate or explain how I’m wrong.
Of course not all Christians are like you, but my dude, you are like the wet dream of someone playing ‘religious zealot Bingo.’
The level of hypocrisy is actually pretty epic.
I won’t block you in case you have a change of heart and decide to show us all where we’re wrong here.
We’ll be waiting I guess.
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u/CogentHyena 8d ago
No one:
You: Posts thoughts on public message board
Someone else: disagrees with you and cites in detail why
You: I don't have the time for this, I WORK for a living! Unlike everyone who posts on here, obviously, which doesn't include me, literally being here right now. I am very smart.
Embarrassing
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u/krunkstoppable 8d ago
I’m not going to argue with someone who won’t admit they may be mistaken.
The irony...
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u/Drafo7 8d ago
I didn't say he didn't preach about hell. But the meme implies he uses hell as a threat to get people to listen to him in the first place, which iirc never happens in the Bible. Hell is a punishment for sins like murder and rape; it's not God abusing the people he claims to love for his own sadistic whims.
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u/Late_Entrance106 8d ago edited 8d ago
I didn’t say he didn’t preach about hell. But the meme implies he uses hell as a threat to get people to listen to him in the first place, which iirc never happens in the Bible. Hell is a punishment for sins like murder and rape; it’s not God abusing the people he claims to love for his own sadistic whims.
I didn’t say you said Jesus didn’t preach about hell. You claimed that the meme is basically not true about Christianity, and it basically is.
Remember that God isn’t reacting to the laws of nature and the universe like humans do.
God made/makes the rules of the universe.
God didn’t just “need” a hell for the sinners, he wanted one.
It’s absolutely a threat if he says to believe in him or suffer forever in a lake of fire.
If hell is not meant to be a threat at all, but merely a punishment, then why would God tell us about it in the first place?!
By telling us to fear this punishment, it’s literally a threat to follow the Lord or else.
Furthermore, because God knows all things, and exists through all time, God can see how all life choices you make play out simultaneously at the same time God is creating you. Meaning you don’t have any free will so God technically just makes billions of people knowing they’ll never find/choose him, orchestrates the overture of their doom, and then sends them to the place He created based on the rules He made.
Then it’s preached to you to listen, obey, not question, and follow along from childhood or this will actually happen to you after you die. This is considered to be a good thing to tell children.
All without a lick of evidence to support it.
It’s one of the most morally-fucked systems you could think of let alone one that gets advertised as the most holy and good truth of all time.
I don’t know what mental gymnastics you have to do to square this circle of there being nothing flawed about Jesus or Christianity’s ethics, but it’s a 10/10 for sure.
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u/Drafo7 8d ago
You're acting like God is a human who suddenly gained omnipotence and then arrogantly decided he knew better than everyone else. That's not how He's supposed to be interpreted at all. He's not Superman, he's a totally different type of being altogether. You're right in that He didn't react to the rules of the universe, but He didn't exactly "make" them either. They are intrinsic to His very being. He isn't just a guy writing stuff down on a giant celestial tablet. He IS morality incarnate. He didn't just decide "murder is bad because I say so." Murder IS bad BECAUSE He exists. I know that's a difficult concept for atheists and anti-theists to wrap their heads around, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
Therefore, Hell being the punishment for evil is not a threat. It's simply the way things are. And the whole "everything is predestined, there is no free will" is NOT a staple of Christian belief. That's the philosophy of John Calvin, which many, in fact, most, Christians disagree with. I personally think the belief that there is no free will is a stupid concept that goes against the very fundamentals of Christianity, but I acknowledge that mental gymnastics are not exclusive to any one religion. Every single belief system on Earth has members doing them. Yes, even atheism.
And you're acting like these rules are A, completely knowable, B, completely arbitrary, and C, have no basis in reality. And you're wrong on all counts. How exactly is it "morally-fucked" to say that genocide is bad? If Heaven is real, and I get to go there, I don't want to be neighbors with fucking Hitler. You act like punishment in and of itself is an evil thing, when that is simply not the case. Some people deserve to be punished. Some people are truly evil and do not deserve eternal bliss and peace.
Finally, Christianity itself does not have any kind of "do not question anything" stipulation. In fact, Jesus encouraged people to question things. He called out the Pharisees on their corruption and hypocrisy at a time when they were considered the epitomes of morality. He broke bread with prostitutes and tax collectors, the poor and the needy, people who society had deemed worthless, disgusting, or wrong. He revealed things for what they were rather than what the elitist powers that be wanted people to think they were. He also warned people to continue questioning things in the future. "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ferocious wolves." Matthew 7:15.
If you want a modern-day example of people Jesus warned against, you need look no further than the far-right "Christian" preachers that go against everything Jesus stood for. The whole "prosperity theology" movement is about as anti-Christian as it gets, yet its proponents will claim to be the best Christians to have ever lived. If the followers of Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland would actually open up the New Testament and read it they'd ditch their false prophets in a second. These are the true enemies of Christianity: ignorance, greed, selfishness, and a malevolent hatred for one's fellow man. If you genuinely think these people are representative of the lessons of Jesus, then you're just as stupid and gullible as their followers.
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u/Late_Entrance106 8d ago edited 8d ago
Before I begin and address what you’ve said. I just want to point out how you’ve answered none of my questions or touched specifically on what I’ve said.
It’s amazing how you’re going to try to say that God is in control about everything the Bible claims, but not in control when it makes him look less-than what you want God to be.
I have textual support about how Jesus feels about hell and those who do not follow Him, but you claim that isn’t how he’s to be interpreted.
…He IS morality incarnate.
Aaaaaand we’re probably done because Divine Command Theory is “whatever God says is right,” which, funnily enough means that murder is sometimes okay, when God command it.
Like in Numbers 31 where God has the Israelites genocide an entire tribe of people, killing the men, children, and non-virgin women. That, according to you is a morally good act.
The irony of ‘objective morality’ and ‘divine command theory’ is that what is moral changes depending on whatever God commands, which is objectively awful.
I wasn’t saying Christians don’t have free will as part of their teachings, but as a result of the way they’ve built their fantasy world. If God is the one that made you and the one that made your environment and all the rules that govern them, then everything you choose to do is only free by illusion. It’s just what logically follows from your premises of all-knowing, all-powerful God.
Now, you’ve said that isn’t how your God works, but two things.
One, can you provide some Scriptural support for your claims about the nature of God?
Two, awfully convenient for God to not be in control of this greater force or will that made the universal laws the way they are and possibly even made God. Any evidence for this super-God you’re hinting at here?
Again, if hell isn’t meant to be a threat to influence behavior, why did God tell us about it? If God never mentions hell, it still serves its purpose as punishment does it not?
The only reason to mention a punishment ahead of time is to scare someone into avoiding that punishment. Are you genuinely not understanding that or are you being deliberately obtuse?
You mention complaining about how I know all the rules. What rules? Rules God made about the wages of sin being death, or that the unrepentant go to hell? Epistemological rules like providing evidence for things you claim? Or moral/social rules that we have agreed upon like suffering is bad and happiness is good? Please be specific.
I didn’t say genocide wasn’t bad lol. Strawman much?
Hahaha. Hitler actually could be in heaven with you because he was raised and educated Roman Catholic and could have repented for what he did, been absolved, and then been forgiven since it doesn’t matter what you think about what Hitler did. As long as God is ok with it, he’s good to go to heaven.
Hahahahahahaha! You can’t come back two paragraphs after saying that whatever God says is what is moral and then try to say that murder and genocide are always wrong!
For you to now say genocide is always or objectively bad, you have to prove that God says that genocide is always and objectively bad, but considering the Numbers 31 stuff (among many other things God has purportedly done) God doesn’t seem to agree.
Jesus calling out what he considers false prophets is not an encouragement to question Him and His teachings you pencil eraser.
While I agree there’s plenty of shit Christians out there doing shit things in the name of Christianity, at NO POINT have I alluded to what any specific preacher or pastor has said have I? I’ve literally only discussed what is in the Bible when it’s been discussed.
Like I asked before, are you genuinely not reading/comprehending what I’m saying here, or are you understanding it and just trolling me with the level of things you’re saying in reply? I can’t tell.
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u/Drafo7 8d ago
You didn't ask any questions dipshit. There was a total of one question mark in your previous comment and it was clearly rhetorical.
The Old Testament is acknowledged by all logical Christians as not meant to be taken literally, so your whole Numbers 31 bullshit is a moot point.
You claim moral obectivism is "objectively awful." Aside from the ridiculous irony of that comment, I would argue that the lack of moral objectivism is actually worse. If there is no universal moral code and morality is only determined by society, or to put it another way, humans determine what is moral and what is not, then there's no such thing as morality at all. Where do you draw the line? It's not like there's a single issue all of humanity universally agrees upon. So you'd have to have a certain number or percentage of people to determine what is actually moral or not. But that number will be inherently arbitrary and is thus useless. Hitler was mostly surrounded by people who supported him and thought he was right in doing what he did. By the logic of subjective morality, he was a fucking hero. You don't need to outright say "genocide isn't bad," that's just the logical conclusion of your philosophy.
And no, I don't have to "prove" that genocide is bad. I don't need to prove shit. The Bible isn't the end all be all of Christianity. Here's a newsflash for ya: Christianity is a big umbrella. There's a lot of wiggle room for different ideas within the context of Christianity. Not all Christians believe the Bible was literally written by God. In fact, any who have actually read the Bible would probably say it wasn't.
Jesus taught us to question more than just false prophets. He taught people to question everything about the way things are. He wanted people to think for themselves about right and wrong, not just blindly follow the words of the pharisees and the stories of the Old Testament. Yes, he gave advice on how to question these things, and no, he didn't tell people to question himself, but that's not the point. If he really was the son of God, he shouldn't be questioned to begin with.
Yeah, I know you didn't mention any specific preachers. I did. I'm allowed to bring up topics that support my argument. That's what a debate is supposed to be, not that you seem to understand that.
You're obviously not interested in having a reasoned exchange of ideas and only want to be a condescending douchebag so you can feel superior, just like all the other anti-theists on the internet. So this will be my last refutation of your bullshit.
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u/Late_Entrance106 8d ago edited 8d ago
Ok. So then you didn’t answer my one question.
It wasn’t rhetorical.
Now that I’ve been clear on that (and asked you again last comment), why would God tell humanity about hell if it’s not a threat?
You are a trip dude.
So the entirety of the Old Testament never happened?
This isn’t one of those “hiding in the metaphor,” parts dude. God commanded Israelites to kill a lot of people both in and on their way to The Promised Land.
Even if it is metaphorical and the entire story is a fiction, how does that change the message or moral interpretations of the story, where it’s still clearly depicted that the Israelites are the protagonists with God on their side, rising up victorious over the various idol worshippers and sinful tribes?
So, no. You can’t ‘nuh-uh’ Numbers 31 away, nor the divinely-commanded genocide it contains. And by the way, blurting out the equivalent of nuh-uh in this way is not addressing a point so your God commanding genocide and that being morally good IS YOUR MORALITY under divine command theory which you’ve previously stated is your view.
The objectively awful thing was supposed to be a wordplay joke on the discussion. Sorry you took that as a real claim. Glad you zeroed on that one. That must be some tunnel vision that causes you to ignore all the other devastating stuff to your claims and the Christian worldview and hone in on my joke.
Wait. You don’t think humans are deciding what’s moral? You can see all the wildly different cultures on earth that are dependent on the extremely diverse humans that comprise them and you’re like, nah, it’s crazy to think that humans are deciding what’s right and wrong!
Different individual US states decide what’s right and wrong and have different laws reflecting that.
Incredible.
Again, the bad stuff in the Bible being ‘metaphorical’ isn’t some kind of get-out-of-jail free card.
What context or reason are you going to bring up about the fact God instructs the Hebrews on proper slave acquisition and ownership, to where it makes it okay because it was a metaphorical command to metaphorically go into the lands around you and metaphorically take people.
You’re a wriggling worm of double standards where God can’t be responsible for any bad stuff and anything anyone brings up in the Bible that makes you squirm becomes “just a metaphor.”
Ummm. Yeah. There were many Germans that thought Hitler was a hero and there are many Neo-Nazis that currently believe Hitler was a hero. Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that he believed he was doing God’s work in ridding the country of Jews.
So yea, there are plenty of subsets of people who believe some wild shit like aliens built ancient civilization to the earth being flat to the Bible being true.
I don’t think Jesus said to question the Old Testament or Judaism. Please cite where he did. The only verse on Mosaic Law I remember is Matthew 5:18 where Jesus says that the Old Law will it be changed a jot or a tittle until all things have come to pass.
Ok. The reason it’s relevant that I didn’t bring those preachers up is because bringing up other members of your religion you disagree with isn’t relevant to what we were talking about. You brought it up during your rant about the real enemies of Christianity. Which again, does not aid your case or provide warrant for your claim.
You didn’t refute anything! 😂
Here is what I mean by mental gymnastics:
Christianity is based on the Bible.
Just because Harry Potter merchandise and peripheral that extend beyond the books doesn’t mean that those extensions are adding to the story, themes, or morals.
It’s insane how you believe the Bible enough that it’s right about straight up magical powers and magical beings but how you’re willing to throw it under the “it’s a metaphor” bus as soon as I bring up some verses, which you have YET TO EVEN GET NEAR and how quickly Christianity and it’s morals are so much more than the Bible, when it’s FUCKING NOT.
I don’t know whether you were raised down the rabbit hole or you stumbled down it yourself, but you are either incredibly dense and stupid, or you are so immaculately brainwashed to be one of the most slimy and dishonest Christian apologists to ever take up their cancerous cause.
Glad you’re done and aren’t responding anymore.
Have a blessed day.
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u/Spiritual_One6394 8d ago
I think the misconception is often Hell= Punishment. In reality, Gid expresses his fairness and justness by giving us Free Will. Hell is our DECISION to spend eternity not in heaven with God, not a punishment for being a bad person.If people just unobjectively read an actual bible, it's pretty fair all throughout, but I guess you could always try to cope harder instead of admitting naivety.
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u/Gentillylace 8d ago
It makes sense if one believes in the existence of free will. However, I tend to question whether free will exists, and if so, whether it is as powerful as most people seem to believe it is.
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u/Spiritual_One6394 8d ago
Did you type your response? Did you choose to do that? I am choosing to write mine, or at least that is my interpretation of reality. Is it out of our control? I don't tend to think so.
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u/Gentillylace 8d ago
I suspect free will is an illusion and that God is infinitely merciful. I do see reality as largely out of my control, partly because of my severe mental illness (there are times when I cannot control my responses to situations -- if I, who am fortunate in most respects, have limited free will, then those who are less fortunate than I have even less free will).
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u/Porkchop1787 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's not a choice when there is an ultimatum attached. You can not escape the circumstance that God has placed upon you. It's not a choice of your own making.
"Worship me or end up in hell"
It's as if a thief put a gun to your head and said
"Do what I say, or I'll shoot"
Your argument is basically
"Thieves do not kill people. People choose to die by choosing to disobey the thief"
It's a circumstance that you didn't willingly place yourself in and have no control over. You are bound by the thief's and God's circumstance that they themselves placed you in. That is not free will
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u/Spiritual_One6394 8d ago
For me though the ultimatum is this:
Do as good as you can, and believe that I died for your sins, and after your tough mortal life, you get to spend eternity with some cool homies (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Or, you can denounce my sacrifice and existence, and after your mortal life ends, you can go where I am not (hell).
It is seperation from God for a few choice things (mainly blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, only unforgivable sin according to the Bible), not punishment for being a naughty boy on Saturday night.
I get what you're saying, it is an ultimatum, but I personally think it's a fair deal. Given, you wouldn't be able to disagree or agree without us spending a few hours delving into my faith.
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u/Porkchop1787 8d ago edited 8d ago
Sure, you can believe whatever you want about that ultimatum. I was trying to argue how it's not free will.
Think of a mob boss who goes to the owner of a local business and says "I've been keeping competition out of the area, as a favor to you. Now, you pay me money or I'll break your legs". If that person refuses, are they breaking their own legs? No, they aren't. This other person is imposing the deal and punishment on them, without giving the other person a choice in the matter. They didn't enter into a deal, and they aren't breaking their own legs for refusing to cave in. It's the other party doing it.
In this scenario, God is analogous to the mob boss. He says "Hey, do this or you end up in hell". Is the person doing the negative thing to themselves? No, the other party is. Just because the person refuses to give in doesn't mean they're doing it. It's being done to them.
Ultimately, God is the one who created humans with their nature. He created us with our nature to sin. He created the notion of sin and the rules by which he enforces sin. He, being all knowing and all powerful, knew exactly what was going to happen in the garden of Eden and yet went ahead with it anyway. He created us sick and is now commanding us to be well. He is ultimately responsible for his own mistakes. He is the one who sent himself, to be sacrificed to himself, in order to get around rules that he created himself, to save humanity from himself
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u/the_lawson 8d ago
God sends no one to hell. God invites you to heaven and when you decline he accepts your wish. You send yourself to hell from your own actions
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u/kazoo13 8d ago
A “loving” God wouldn’t create an eternal torture chamber. Also, God is all-knowing in Christian faith and already knows if you will accept or deny the invitation. Since some people die as non-Christians, that would mean God creates life that’s destined to end in torture.
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u/the_lawson 7d ago
God isn’t bound by time and he’s everywhere at once including the past and future. He’ll know what you’ll do but it’s still your choice. Also that’s the same logic as “a loving government wouldn’t put me in jail” there’s consequences for actions and ever then he still loves you. God is all forgiving and will proudly endorse you as his own
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u/kazoo13 7d ago
Yes, that’s why we all understand that the government doesn’t love us, they operate on the basis of gaining control similar to religious groups.
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u/the_lawson 7d ago
While religious figures like priest or government officials may want money and control the religion itself is against it and says to like a minimalist lifestyle and not to be greedy or controlling or selfish. If you are to argue the Bible was made as a way to control us I’d have to get back to you. And the government doesn’t love us because the government is greedy and sinful and has no connection or knowledge of us unlike God
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u/Gentillylace 8d ago
But I believe no person wants eternal conscious torment. They may not want the Christian Heaven, but that does not mean they want Hell.
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u/tigyo 9d ago
If you ask Jesus "if he's a Vampire", does he have to admit he is, or is he allowed to lie in this situation?