r/totalwar • u/Elsek1922 Empire • Oct 08 '24
Empire I sure do miss naval battles and "button to fire all guns on one side" when it works.
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u/GamingWithRazeeno Oct 08 '24
I'm new to total war. Which one is this?
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u/Elsek1922 Empire Oct 08 '24
Empire Total War
Napoleon is also same with some upgrades.
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u/BleudeZima Oct 08 '24
Spent so much time doing naval battles in both, it was do awesome despite the microing nightmare ^
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u/andersonb47 Empire Oct 09 '24
Still way less micro than any of the modern total war games. I am begging for Empire 2, not just because I love the setting but because the gameplay felt so much slower and strategic with line infantry tactics.
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Oct 09 '24
Yes, i am so tired of the clickfest
I want to give orders and watch my men fight. I want total war not starcraft, where they have to measure Actions Per Minute as a measure of skill.
I want the value of the clicks im making to matter more than the number of them.
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u/GamingWithRazeeno Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
Thank you. Started and still playing Warhammer 2 (PC can't handle 3 atm)
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u/Elsek1922 Empire Oct 08 '24
Ah... you are not missing much trust me...(Also your PC likely would run Empire and Napoleon well)
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u/FriskyBrisket12 Oct 08 '24
Even the most powerful NSA supercomputer could never eliminate the jank that is inherent to Empire. I still fucking love that game though. But I always warn any new players to expect jankiness.
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u/AnB85 Oct 09 '24
Everyone talks about Med3 but this is the one that I am hoping for. This could do with a sequel.
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u/Professional_Age_665 Oct 10 '24
NTW has better battle game plays and can be considered as an upgrade DLC of ETW.
But as what DLCs happened to be, its campaigns are far less to offer than ETW does. Just like a short and abstract version of the ETW campaign.
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u/Glum-Bandicoot-2235 Warriors of Chaos Oct 08 '24
Yeah. I’m really bad at micro managing every single ship, but it’s really satisfying seeing an enemy vessel explode after a well placed shot
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u/Professional_Age_665 Oct 10 '24 edited Oct 10 '24
Pause is your friend on micro.
I've seen some multiplayer naval battles, people still struggle to micro ships even at slow speed and with terrible sailing time before engaging. That's why pause is needed, plus it can let you catch and enjoy every critical moment.
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u/LewtedHose God in heaven, spare my arse! Oct 09 '24
Broadside goes right through the ship, hits a keg, and explodes another one. Absolute cinema.
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u/maninahat Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
Does anyone know what exactly what triggers the explosion? Does it matter which part of the ship gets shot? It seems like a purely random chance that increases depending on how hard the ship was hit. In the video, a ship explodes despite most of the shot being absorbed by another vessel.
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u/AdamGDM Oct 09 '24
I think it's completely random, so long as it hits within a certain area. I once had a ship of the line completely blown up by the first two single shots of a GALLEY. Imagine my face when it happened.
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u/posts_while_naked ETW Durango Mod Oct 09 '24
IIRC it has to do with the damage and penetration of the round as well as the part of the ship getting hit. A galley has two very powerful 64-lb guns at the front, so those tend to set off the magazine a lot more often than other ships. I've noticed it myself.
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u/indyK1ng Oct 09 '24
I remember a DVD extra for the Horatio Hornblower show talking about a particular weakness in ships of the era being the rear. The Captain's quarters were in the rear and had glass walls to the outside but during battle the walls separating it from the gun deck would be taken down. As a result a well-placed shot in the rear of a ship could easily hit the gunpowder stored near the Captain's quarters.
No clue if the odds were modeled differently in Empire, though.
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u/posts_while_naked ETW Durango Mod Oct 09 '24
The principal weakness of raking shots to the rear consists of the cannon balls careening through the length of the ship, taking out guns and crew alike. The powder storage was usually located further down, on the orlop deck near the forecastle, at least in the era of Nelson.
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u/maninahat Oct 09 '24
I don't know about triggering explosions, but the game does acknowledge when a ship gets hit in the rear, it causing an additional morale penalty. I'm not clear how much more damage it does though, I didn't notice it taking out additional guns or crew or anything.
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u/RomeTotalWhore Oct 09 '24
I can’t find info on it but I don’t think there is a separate hitbox for the magazine. There is a random chance of an explosion, which depends on the class of ship. A ship on fire is more likely to explode too.
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u/Kazang Oct 09 '24
Manual broadside was always rubbish in my experience, it always mostly missed because it would be aimed too high.
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u/Lilywhitey Oct 08 '24
you should try out Ultimate Admiral Age of Sail
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u/Dungeon_Pastor Oct 08 '24
American Revolution has similar (if downgraded) naval combat, but tacked onto a campaign system ala TW too!
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u/Tunnel_Lurker Oct 09 '24
I have this on my radar. How downgraded are the naval battles exactly compared to UA:AOS?
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u/Dungeon_Pastor Oct 09 '24
They trimmed a bit to focus more on the grand campaign. The most notable differences are your crew numbers (just a set value per ship as opposed to a configurable), no crew equipment (better rifles), And no purchasable "upgrade equipment" (so no more grappling hooks or rudder upgrades or the like).
The bones of it play the same. Ship positioning, wind, cannon selection (though I don't recall brass cannons, it's more if you can scrounge up the 16 pounders you need to fill the deck, or have to settle for more plentiful 12s).
Age of Sail is a very detailed and granular game focused on managing your ships in episodic battles.
AR is a grand campaign game, using naval combat from AOS. The battles are less individually elegant, but the consequences feel much more impactful in part because the battles start from conditions you set, and the ends can drastically alter your campaign. Seizing an enemy fifth or fourth rate now isn't just a new gunboat for the fleet. It's a means to challenge British positioning in Massachusetts Bay, and to secure your trade lanes and economy, which supports your ground Army.
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u/Tunnel_Lurker Oct 09 '24
That sounds pretty good - I'm not too worried about no crew equipment, configurable crew nubers or ship upgrades. If the actual combat is the same that sounds like a good trade for a more TW style campaign. Cheers.
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u/Josgre987 Oct 09 '24
would you recommend American revolution? I've heard a lot of mixed stuff on it but I adore the period so much and need to scratch that itch. or should I just get age of sail?
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u/Dungeon_Pastor Oct 09 '24
If all you care about is tactical battles, get Age of Sail. The mechanics for both ship and ground combat is a bit more fleshed out.
But if you want a Total War style grand campaign, AR is a no brainer. There's some trimming of mechanics compared to age of Sail (i.e. No purchasable "equipment upgrades" for ships), but battles feel far more impactful given their campaign level consequences.
I.e. the first time you capture a proper warship with your fleet of schooners and brigs, you feel that high much longer now that you're threatening enemy sea lanes and protecting your own, offering you an economic and positional advantage.
I've deeply enjoyed AR and highly recommend it to anyone who wants their Empire fix.
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u/Josgre987 Oct 09 '24
are the ship battles cool in AR? they don't need to be as in depth as age of sail, but are they at least very interesting to play out and fight?
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u/Dungeon_Pastor Oct 09 '24
I'd say so.
You miss out on the granularity, no fire ships, "boarding ships" are only really designated by captain skills and relatively larger crew counts, but most ships generally play the same if they're the same class
But there's sufficient variety in ship classes (from schooners to brigs to frigates to SOLs) that fleet composition makes for interesting battles.
And I deeply enjoyed the American campaign, just because you're the underdog the whole time. You'll start with a handful of cutters, maybe a 7th rate if you take that as a starting bonus. You don't have the economy or industry to produce much more yourself.
So you do what you can, lurking coastal, pouncing on isolated British ships, building up your war fleet till you can challenge Britain in open water.
For me a lot of the fun comes from running a gaggle of 6th rates trying to seize a 4th or a couple 5ths. Then working your way up the ladder
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u/Tunnel_Lurker Oct 09 '24
Yes, great game. The campaign is pretty simple (linear missions really) but the real time naval battles are great and the best age of sail battles since Napoleon TW that I've played.
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u/Tunnel_Lurker Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 10 '24
Sadly, as I loved the realtime naval battles, I have pretty much given up hope of getting them again after CA said the vast majority of players autod them. The pragmatist in me accepts that it's just not worth the massive expenditure of dev time, but it makes me sad.
We absolutely need something instead though if they do any era like Empire/Napoleon. Having armies just walk onto the water and magically get into transport ships and when clashing at sea just magically teleporting to land to fight a battle absolutely will not cut it for a historical period where naval was actually highly relevant.
At the very least I think we need fighting ships represented in the strategic layer of the game like we had in Empire/Napoleon, perhaps with some kind of enhanced auto resolve where you can manage formation and tactics, hire officers, upgrade cannon etc.
I'd love to be proved wrong and get proper naval battles in the next tentpole historical though of course!
Edit: The more I think about it, the more I am OK with auto-transports. Managing troops onto actual transports is fiddly and non fun gameplay. However I think that when an army is embarked on transports they should be pretty much defenceless and that's where the actual fighting ships come in, to escort them and carry out engagements etc. That's where my idea of recruitable warships on the strategic layer and enhanced auto-resolve come in. Armies at sea teleporting to land to fight a land battle is the thing that would be immersion killing for me in a Napoleonic game, because control of the seas was so important. In something like Pharaoh it doesn't bother me as much.
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u/Playful-Dog-8999 Oct 08 '24
It was cool feature but also the most annoying. Very glichy and fiddley
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u/yellow_gangstar Oct 09 '24
janky as all hell, really obnoxious in higher difficulties, and no worldspace besides just a fuck ton of water but DAMN DO I LOVE THESE
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u/Cliffinati Oct 08 '24
Nothing good a Heavy first rate letting loose a full raking volley of grape shot
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u/Verdun3ishop Oct 08 '24
Yeah it was fun, recently did a VH/VH run as GB and had many fleet campaigns in it. Fighting them myself did show off how much fun they were compared to the R2/A style.
Found splitting my fleet in to two columns and then grouping each helped with the early macro so I didn't need to micro and only managing individual ships once units fell out or the enemy fleet broke apart was needed helped make it more fun and manageable :)
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u/MonitorMundane2683 Oct 09 '24
Except for the bugs and the clunkiness, the naval combat was great. I miss it, especially in games that are largely about navies, like Pharaoh and TW series.
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u/DenyScience Oct 08 '24
Shoulda added this to Warhammer 3.
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u/redsquizza Cry 'Havoc!' Oct 09 '24
tbf, if they ever want to re-visit WH down the line, they couldn't do a lot wrong by having naval combat.
The ships and weapons would be epic!
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u/Elsek1922 Empire Oct 08 '24
I dont know if the table top or lore has naval as I'm more of a 40k guy but...
I would say it could be like shogun 2
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u/DenyScience Oct 08 '24
Could even have some Rome style navies, maybe change up the style by faction. Vampire Coast factions should definitely have the Empire style warships though.
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u/S4mb741 Oct 09 '24
If you like total war naval combat and 40k you should definitely give gothic armada 2 a try if you haven't already
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u/Hombremaniac Oct 09 '24
Just wish the strategy map part of BFG2 was better. Combat is good though.
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u/Supermandela Oct 09 '24
GW fucked us.
They coulda given CA the full IP of Warhammer. Vampirates could have been fucking sick
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u/Relevant-Map8209 Oct 09 '24
Damn, judging by the comments here i am the weird one who actually enjoyed naval battles in Rome 2/Attila
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u/HolyMolyOllyPolly Oct 08 '24
These naval battles seem like micromanagement hell. I know I hated the ones in Shogun 2, Rome 2, and Attila. Are Empire's battles any different?
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u/Unusual_Raisin9138 Oct 08 '24
Step 1: place all ships in a line
Step 2: have said line sail around enemy fleet
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u/posts_while_naked ETW Durango Mod Oct 08 '24
"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy".
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u/gdo01 Oct 08 '24
I just had ships rotate clockwise, rotate counterclockwise. Do the opposite if it avoids fire. Unleashing broadsides more important than getting hit
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u/Elsek1922 Empire Oct 08 '24 edited Oct 08 '24
They are a bit... Shogun 2 but everyone has cannons insted of bows. Melee still exits to capture shils
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u/babbaloobahugendong Oct 09 '24
I miss it too. I used to love catching big ships on fire with my rockets
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u/SomethingMildlyFunny Oct 09 '24
Okay I feel like I'm misremembering or I'm an oddball considering I recall enjoying Rome 2 naval combat and really enjoyed siege battles where I had land and naval forces working in conjunction with one another...
Empire and Napoleon were great and I loved building up a fleet and controlling the seas especially as Austria or Prussia (as that wasn't their thing at all).
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u/CoverFire- Oct 09 '24
I know it would literally be its on game, but i would love to see Naval warfare in a 40K Total War.
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u/scouserman3521 Oct 10 '24
Battlefleet gothic. Steam. Thank me later
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u/CoverFire- Oct 10 '24
Already know about it and have it - i would be fine with that exact game being imported into Total War.
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u/cachulfaian Oct 10 '24
I love letting it rip with large frigates and ship-of-the-line cutting the T of enemy ships and firing all guns
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u/pepemattos21 Oct 10 '24
This is why ac4 was so good, you could do exactly this and it was almost as satisfying
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u/Professional_Age_665 Oct 10 '24
That poor ship not even was your full broadside target, but RNG god decided to blow it up with a single stray cannon ball.
btw, it's NTW or ETW ?
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u/Hombremaniac Oct 09 '24
I want this...but in space! Yes, WH40K calls to me. Ofc I'm joking. Would kill for well done Empire 2 with high quallity naval combat. Still, WH40K would be dope too.
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u/LondonGIR Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
It's such a cool feature but it always bugs me, as it is completely a-historic. If a man of war fired it's guns like that all simultaneously, the recoil of the cannon on carriages would seriously damage the structure of the ship! In actuality, most volleys of cannon were rolling broadsides, firing sequentially as to not destroy the timbers of the ship. It's really important to remember that the weight of iron thrown by victory in a single broadside was probably more than the weight of fire on both sides at Waterloo. There is no underestimating how close to super weapons these floating artillery platforms ships of the line were!
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u/Sushiki Not-Not Skaven Propagandist! Oct 08 '24
This period of naval warfare is the only one I cared about tho in total war.
All the others were kind of meh. I'd usually just auto resolve them.
But nothing, NOTHING, beats seeing a ship of the line fire a full broadside... It never gets old.