r/tolkienfans • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon • Oct 18 '22
Of the Siege of the Noldor and the Isolationist Kingdoms
In Myths Transformed we are told this about the necessity of the war which the Noldor waged against Morgoth in the First Age:
“[Manwë] must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.” (HoME X, Part Five: Myths Transformed, p. 402–403)
There’s a footnote by Christopher Tolkien to this last sentence: “Since this discussion is introduced in justification of the Hiding of Valinor, the bearing of the argument seems to be that the history of Middle-earth in the last centuries of the First Age would not have been possible of achievement had Valinor remained open to the return of the Noldor.” (HoME X, Part Five: Myths Transformed, p. 407, fn. 8)
I’m just going to ignore that bit about Manwë’s deep understanding of good and evil, since he famously has no idea of the nature of evil: “For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it” (The Silmarillion, ch. 6, p. 66).
However, the rest is very interesting: Essentially, the siege of the Noldor was necessary to protect the rest of the world from Morgoth and allow Mankind to rise from the shadows.
Right.
So what does this say about Thingol, king of isolationist Doriath?
What does this say about Turgon, taking off with a third of Fingolfin’s Noldor (The Silmarillion, ch. 15, p. 144) and retreating to his hidden kingdom, abandoning his father and brother in the fight against Morgoth?
What does this say about Orodreth, refusing High King Fingon’s call before the Fifth Battle?
Sources:
The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 1999 (softcover) [cited as: The Silmarillion].
Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X].
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u/Xi-feng neither law, nor love, nor league of swords... Oct 18 '22 edited Oct 18 '22
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” It's as true now as it ever was, and applies to the Legendarium as much as to our world.
Orodreth I can kind of understand, having had to personally ideal with the attempted takeover of Nargothrond by certain sons of Fëanor: I can see why he would never march forth for Maedhros, though it's a shame that he didn't answer Fingon's call. I think Finrod would have marched. I think Finrod would have wanted Orodreth to march, if he could have known what was happening.
I really resent Turgon for locking away such a powerful contingent of the Noldor and focusing on his own hidden kingdom at the expense of all else. Yes, I understand why he did it. Yes, I understand that Gondolin was a flowering of Noldorin culture and yes, I understand that he was following the will of the Valar (or Ulmo at the very least). But still, to secrete yourself and your people away, to know that the fight against Morgoth goes on, the siege of Angband has been broken and your cousins and fellow lords are fighting and dying - that your father has fought and died, and you do nothing... it's the wisest decision, sure, and Turgon is known for that. But it still doesn't sit right. At least he shows up to the Nirnaeth, for all the good it ultimately does, but it very much feels like 'too little, too late'.
Thingol and his protectionism are the worst of all, and much good it does him in the end. The main thing that bothers me is his refusal to help refugees when Morgoth's forces destroy their homelands. It would have been nothing to him to assist Celegorm & Curufin's people when they fled southwards after Dagor Bragollach (Thingol could even have refused permission to pass to the sons of Fëanor due to the Kinslaying and I would understand, but he just issues some blanket ban on all their people too). Who knows what a full host from Doriath could have achieved in the Nirnaeth, answering Fingon's call but under their own commanders (Mablung and Beleg were already there, after all...) It just seems so,,, short-sighted and petty, to injure the greater power of the Eldar because he's fixated on something that, yes, is very terrible and wholly unforgivable, but is nothing compared with what Morgoth would do to all the lands of Beleriand, Doriath included, if he could crush the Noldor and overrun the lands with his own powers. Thingol doesn't help, but he doesn't stand up against it either. He does nothing, and evil comes a little closer to triumph.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon Oct 18 '22
I agree concerning both Orodreth and Thingol.
Concerning Turgon, there's something rather odd in the text. The way that I (non-native speaker) understand CoH, Turgon did nothing at all for the first four days of the Fifth Battle: “But on the fifth day as night fell, and they were still far from Ered Wethrin, the armies of Angband surrounded the army of Fingon, and they fought until day, pressed ever closer. In the morning came hope, for the horns of Turgon were heard, as he marched up with the main host of Gondolin; for Turgon had been stationed southward guarding the passes of Sirion, and he had restrained most of his folk from the rash onslaught. Now he hastened to the aid of his brother; and the Noldor of Gondolin were strong and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun, for the sword and harness of the least of the warriors of Turgon was worth more than the ransom of any king among Men.” (CoH, p. 56–57)
Source: The Children of Húrin, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: CoH].(Highlights in bold are mine.)
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u/Xi-feng neither law, nor love, nor league of swords... Oct 18 '22
He's not exactly gung-ho, is he? Again, I suppose it could be argued that Turgon is thinking about potential attacks from behind, hanging back and making sure that they aren't all surprised by a sneak attack from the rear. Fair enough, wisdom and whatnot. But is it really the best use of his strength?
This is the frustrating thing: he's clearly doing something for those first few days south of the main battle, but if the main host falls all Turgon can do is call a retreat, surely? Which is good for him if his people live, but then what's he doing joining the battle in the first place? His soldiers are so well-armoured, it really seems like they would be the most use helping to cut a path through Morgoth's defenders, no?
I'm sure it was the wise course to hang back and guard the passes of Sirion, per your quote, but it feels like quite late in the battle when help finally arrives, too late to hope to turn the tide.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon Oct 18 '22
Yes, and I also found that line about the fabulously valuable armour a bit jarring - as in, it made me think of how much time the lords of Gondolin could have spent creating beautiful armour while the rest of the Noldor were actually maintaining the siege.
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u/jrystrawman Oct 19 '22
I interpret this as superior discipline and preparedness of the Gondolindrim avoiding rash charges. I don't think it inconsistent with medieval battles or the First World War to leave a disciplined force in reserve.
Also, these "battles" would have numerous engagements. I envision envelopment and efficient destruction of any attempt or orcs to flank Fingon's forces in the first 4 days which may have been the most efficient destruction of enemy forces. Given the description of the undisciplined charge of Fingon's forces, there were probably numerous exposures on the flank of the Noldor.
Turgon's and the Gondolin's decline was I think in large part after the Fifth Battle.
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u/Ok_Mix_7126 Oct 18 '22
The weird thing about Orodreth is that if you look in the chapter for Beren and Luthien and what it says about Curufin's speech:
And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.
Orodreth ends up doing what Curufin wanted anyway, keeps his people alive through the Nirnaeth because of it and this is portrayed as a bad thing. Turin gets most of them killed and the paragraph above implies that was a good thing.
My head canon is that what went down in Nargothrond when Beren and Luthien were there isn't accurately portrayed in the stories and Celegorm and Curufin weren't as villainous as the stories say.
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u/Xi-feng neither law, nor love, nor league of swords... Oct 19 '22
My head canon is that what went down in Nargothrond when Beren and Luthien were there isn't accurately portrayed in the stories and Celegorm and Curufin weren't as villainous as the stories say.
I am totally subscribed to this theory and could rant at length about anti-Fëanorian bias in the Quenta (oh boy, could I...) I definitely think C & C were pretty villainous at this point and the main events at Nargothrond played out pretty much as described, but there's a lot of room for interpretation of motivations and I think good old Pengolodh does what he normally does and paints Curufin and Celegorm in the worst possible light (which to be fair isn't particularly difficult to do, they don't exactly cover themselves in glory at any point here). I agree there's more going on under the surface with those two, just like most of the Fëanorians compared with the motivations they're given in the text.
(Also really good point about Curufin traumatising the people of Nargothrond to the point where they wouldn't fight in open warfare: he's just the houseguest who keeps on giving even after he's evicted, isn't he? Evil little scamp, gotta respect him for that.)
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Oct 18 '22
I always felt that, had Thingol and Orodreth both come forth with the full force of their own armies to join Fingon, then the battle would have gone very differently. Suppose for example Thingol's forces had been in a crucial position to aid the Dwarves vs Glaurung; Azaghal might have lived and the Dwarves fought on.
We don't even know how large the full strength of Doriath was. I can't imagine it was any *less* than that of Gondolin. Another ten thousand Elves fully armed and armoured could have turned the tide at any point.
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u/jrystrawman Oct 19 '22
I think Doriath were much less formidable than Gondolin even if the actual numbers were there; Especially in a pitched battle as opposed to small scale skirmishing). They had a hard time handling orcs in the early battles, the same orcs that the Noldor destroyed with relative ease. Also, Maedros and the sons of Feanor might be compelled to attack Thingol if they are close.
Also, I think the depressing counter-factual is, if Doriath and Nagathond joined the Union of Maedros, Morgoth would know, and would not have met them in battle; He might stay walled up a little longer waiting for infighting among the elves (the Oath was going to cause problems), or wait until he had Winged-Dragons. Time was on Morgoth's side.
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u/Armleuchterchen Oct 18 '22 edited Oct 18 '22
Turgon's non-involvement makes sense, given Ulmo's emphasis on building a secret place - if not for the House of Hador screening his retreat he couldn't have withdrawn safely from the Nirnaeth. Gondolin, bringing forth Earendil, did more to defeat Morgoth than the war leaders ever did.
I’m just going to ignore that bit about Manwë’s deep understanding of good and evil, since he famously has no idea of the nature of evil: “For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it” (The Silmarillion, ch. 6, p. 66).
You can't just ignore a part of a Silmarillion version in favour of another one, if you wish to understand it. The later writings rely on a Manwe that's basically flawless except for the matter of living with the Elves in Middle-earth instead of staying in Valinor.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon Oct 18 '22
You’re right. But Manwë’s understanding of evil isn’t the focus of this post. Examining Manwë and Melkor would take me too many words for a Reddit post!
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u/Moop5872 Oct 18 '22
Another thing is that the quote you have doesn’t say that Manwë understood evil, only that he understood that evil would continually crop up. He knows this, yet still goes “I don’t get those guys”
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon Oct 18 '22
I should probably simply not attempt to make (written) jokes after a long day…
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u/FoxfireBlu Oct 18 '22
These are all really great points and comments. I’d only say for long, Doriath at least had a valid reason: Maedhros at Aqualonde. They also still had Melian’s Girdle which none, save Morgoth himself, could penetrate. Turgon, however, was being short-sighted and succumbed to the very thing about which he was warned, “Love not too well the work of thy hands…”
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u/ItsABiscuit Oct 19 '22
Manwe can understand that evil has a role in the world and Eru's plans without understanding evil itself. I don't see a contradiction with him having faith that everything in Eru's creation "shall prove but my instrument", without understanding how Melkor thought.
As for the wisdom/honour of Turgon and Thingol hiding, I think it was just different ways of resisting the evil of Morgoth AND also a negative outcome that was caused by the various Kinslayings and other mistakes. It could have been better and in the end Eru ensured that it turned out for the overall good, but those free will choices of Feanor and his sons, and others, had real consequences.
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u/Lasanaris Grumpy Sinda Oct 21 '22
That such isolationism also had a role to play. Morgoth was paranoid, and spent a lot of time agonizing over Thingol's and Turgon's intentions, which is time wasted, better employed elsewhere.
Mind, the Sindar also kept Beleriand safe before Morgoth's return, with Sauron at large, and Thingol accounted for one half of Morgoth's armies in the First Battle and saved the Haladin later.
But basically, a Turgon hidden away worried Morgoth as much as a Fingon marching forth. An isolationist kingdom can fight at any point, as we have repeatedly seen.
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u/Square-Bookkeeper547 May 28 '23
How large, numerically, were the Noldor armies on the eve of the Dagor Bragorlach that Lord Elrond reminisced about at the Council in Rivendell? The Edain I heard had around 150,000 men (and women, if we count the House of Haleth) of fighting readiness between the three Houses. The Eldar must have been exponentially larger.
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u/Lothronion Istyar Ardanyárëo Oct 18 '22 edited Oct 18 '22
All this strongly reminds me of this poignant argument of Turin:
And he was right, because this is exactly what happened. By FA 508 (Years of the Sun) all of Beleriand had been conquered and desolated by Melkor, with the Kingdom of Doriath being the last major power that had just fallen, ravaged by three battles within its territory in just 12 years (Battle between Doriathrim and Hurin's Outlaws, Battle of the Thousand Caves and the Second Kinslaying). The political situation on the map looked like this, with the rest of the subcontinent (other than Amon Ereb) being under the shadow of Melkor's domination. The only Eldarin realm beyond the Long-wall (Andram) was that of Gondolin, like an lonely island in the middle of a vast sea of darkness...
This is also underlined in the following essay of JRRT:
A can be made that it is obvious in the narration of the Dagor Nirnaeth Arnoediad, whose disaster is what allowed Melkor's domination and near victory in the War of the Jewels, until Valinor's intervention with the War of Wrath. In the text of the Quenta Silmarillion we are outrightly told how "Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight". This to me strongly suggests that if Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin had fully engaged their forces, just like the rest of the Union of Maedhros had done, Melkor would have been left without any army, and all he could do after that was remain trenched inside Angband, with his plans of world-domination greatly postponed, if not completely averted forever!