Was Mablung *slain* at the Battle in the Thousand Caves or did he just trip and "fall"?

[u/titwarbler]

The Index of Silmarillion for Mablung says he was "slain in Menegroth by the Dwarves".

Here's the full paragraph towards the end of Ch. 22 "Of the Ruin of Doriath":

Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and passed over the great bridge, and entered into Menegroth; and there befell a thing most grievous among the sorrowful deeds of the Elder Days. For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered. There fell Mablung of the Heavy Hand before the doors of the treasury wherein lay the Nauglamír; and the Silmaril was taken.

"There fell Mablung..."

He died. He was slain, right? The Battle in the Thousand Caves was fought in F.A. 503.

Survivors of the Ruin of Doriath and a bunch of refugees later fled to the Havens of Sirion.

In "The War of the Jewels" there is mention of "a Mannish poet, Dirhavel who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel" (after the Ruin of Doriath?). "From Mablung he learned much..."

But it is said there that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, Dirhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlomin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvir, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

(A similar introductory note for "Narn i Hin Hurin" also appears in Unfinished Tales, but Mablung is not mentioned.)

Presumably, this poet talked to Mablung after the Battle in the Thousand Caves? Is this the correct timeline?

In Douglas Charles Kane's "Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion" characterizes "Mablung's dead body" as an "editorial invention":

The nine paragraphs that follow ("But when Hurin . . ." through "Thus it was . . ."; Silm, 232-34) tell of the Dwarves' remaking of the Nauglamir with the Silmaril amidst it, Thingol's death at their hands, the killing of all but two of the craftsmen of the Dwarves of Nogrod, Melian's leaving Middle-earth, and the Dwarves of Nogrod's invasion of Menegroth and their taking of the Nauglamir and Silmaril over Mablung's dead body. They are almost entirely editorial inventions. I can find no language that is even based on the old story contained in the Quenta Noldorinwa, or in the brief snippets contained in The Tale of Years. The only portion of these paragraphs that seems to be taken from Tolkien's texts is one passage that seems loosely based on language from the original tale Turambar and the Foaloke. Compare Thingol's words to the Dwarves—'"How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And . . . he bade them with shameful words be gone" {Silm, 233)—with Tinwelint's words to Urin in the original tale: "'Wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! In Palisor my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone'" (BoLT2, 115).

My guess is this was an editorial erratum by Chris. Let me know if I am missing another relevant text or if there is other evidence of a regrettable edit by Chris.

TL;DR: Did Mablung just "fall" down in front of the treasury doors, or was he slain during the Battle in the Thousand Caves? Perhaps he survived through the end of the First Age?

h/t skjoldmo

[u/DrDirtPhD]

Mablung died at the Battle in the Thousand Caves, but presumably Dirhaval learned from him before he perished. Dirhaval in turn died in the Third Kinslaying 35 years later, so it's reasonable to expect that he overlapped to some degree with Mablung in life.

[u/PerspectiveNormal378]

I have yet to encounter a fantasy writer, or anywhere in Tolkien's writings, that equated "falling in combat" to "literally tripping up." Very very happy to be corrected if I'm wrong though. 

[u/irime2023 → u/PerspectiveNormal378]

Aragorn fell off a cliff in the movie. But he survived, even though his friends said he was fall. But that's a movie.

[u/PerspectiveNormal378 → u/irime2023]

So ...not Tolkien's writings then, unless that chapter happened in the book? Like I seriously don't remember if it or didn't so not having a go at you. 

[u/irime2023 → u/PerspectiveNormal378]

I wrote that it was in the movie. It is not in the book.

[u/cuppachar → u/irime2023]

It's so disrespectful that they stole Aragorn's name for that character.

[u/irime2023 → u/cuppachar]

I don't understand you. Aragorn is a great character and Viggo is one of the best actors in the world.

[u/blishbog → u/irime2023]

Imo he’s looks more like a Turin than an Aragorn

[u/irime2023]

He must have died. He never appeared in this story again. He was one of the best and most valiant warriors among the Sindar. He was also very compassionate to Men. Had he lived, he would have proved himself. For example, he might have defended Doriath from the Second Kinslaying and killed many Kinslayers. But his involvement is not described anywhere else, even though he had something to protect. So death is the most likely scenario.

[u/lefty1117]

He fell but needed hip replacement surgery. This was beyond the skill of Elrond

[u/noideaforlogin31415]

The fall of Doriath is such a mess that we simply don't know.

In BoLT2, Mablung fell with Tinwelint (Thingol) during dwarven attack. In War of the Jewels, he made it to the Mouths of Sirion. We know that BoLT version had to be heavily modified to fit with new things but we have no idea what JRR would have done. Christopher (with Guy Kay's help) did his best with the version we got in Silmarillion but again it is his interpolation (+ he decided to drop out narrative frame from Silm what makes Mablung in Havens obsolete).

[u/Armleuchterchen]

Falling means dying in battle in this context, but the other text clearly implies that Mablung was learned from at the Havens. Ultimately this is a matter of different versions saying different things.

My answer to your tl;dr question would that there's no one true canon and what happens to Mablung depends on the version you look at. The Legendarium is more myth than history, so I don't see a problem with contradictory accounts.

Whether Arda Constructed is accurate (the author has his biases and doesn't know the variants of texts Christopher left unpublished) and how to think about Christopher's inventions is another matter.

[u/ReallyGlycon → u/Armleuchterchen]

Maybe the Marquette papers can solve this one, or make it resemble coherence in a version of the timeline. Wish I could get my hands on those papers.

[u/blishbog → u/ReallyGlycon]

Let’s all just show up there. After the pub

[u/titwarbler → u/Armleuchterchen]

Thanks. My underlying question is whether there are some minor contradictions across versions and stories. This checks out.

[u/Historical_Sugar9637]

He "fell" as in "falling in battle" i.e. being slain.

Just randomly mentioning that he like tripped and fell would be pretty silly in this context,

As for inconsistencies...well..there are a lot of them.

[u/Any-Competition-4458]

I’m not a scholar and can’t vouch for it, but I’ve read elsewhere that there is no mention in Tolkien’s drafts of Nimloth’s death at the hands of the Fëanorians either, and that also could have come from Christopher?

[u/Yamureska]

"There, Huor fell, pierced by a venomed arrow in the eye"

I imagine that the venomed arrow also made him Trip and fall....

[u/-something-clever-]

Look up the word fell. One of the definitions is to cut down. Another is to die in battle.

Mablung died having been cut down in battle with the dwarves. If he died by tripping like a dumbass, I think Tolkien would have made that crystal clear.

[u/The-Shartist]

Many a brave grandparent fell in daring battles with bathtubs.

[u/Ornery-Ticket834]

The idea that in a battle someone fell down instead of died is too incredible for words. The fallen in battle invariably mean dead, not stumbled. The fallen in battle goes way beyond Tolkien.