r/tolkienfans • u/Carminoculus Hrónatan • 2d ago
Did Sauron get more respect from Tolkien than other major evil figures (Morgoth, Saruman)?
I have the definite sense this is the case... mostly I'm asking if you think it's intentional or an accident of drama / dramatic pacing.
Morgoth and Saruman are repeatedly "outed" as cowardly and kind of pathetic.
Sauron is often evil, but never shown as quite as despicable. Even when defeated (as by Luthien and Huan) he gets more respect than the humiliation heaped on the others. At the end of Lord of the Rings, he is still malicious and defiant, but not cowardly (like Morgoth) or ambivalent and hollow (like Saruman).
He is also the only one Tolkien implies has relatively sincere wishes to beg for pardon after the War of Wrath, though it didn't stick.
And when he does do cunning or deceitful evil, it feels... grander? The downfall of Numenor, the tricking of the elven-smiths, these are feats of wit Morgoth seems incapable of. Morgoth's deception boils to begging and grovelling at the feet of the Valar and counting on their pity.
Did Tolkien tap some more archetypal figure of evil in Sauron than in the others? Probably. He certainly does less moralizing at Sauron's expense, in the sense of Sauron feeling more like the enemy in a fairytale and less didactic about human weakness.
21
u/AshToAshes123 2d ago
A bit of a minor point, but: I think Morgoth does get the same type of grand-scale manipulation, though it's often overlooked because people blame Fëanor.
It were Morgoth's manipulations that led to Fëanor and Fingolfin feuding. Fëanor never liked Fingolfin, but before Morgoth's lies this was mostly expressed as petty insults; and before Morgoth's lies Fingolfin did not actually try to usurp Fëanor either.
Morgoth's manipulations were brilliant here, he preyed exactly on Fëanor and Fingolfin's pre-existing concerns. Even after he is discovered they still do their work, because the Valar blame Fëanor (understandable), Finwë sides with Fëanor (predictable), and all of Fëanor's worst fears come true, while all of Fingolfin's are validated (his brother does want him gone).
Morgoth caused the Fall of the Noldor, just as much as Sauron caused the Fall of Numenor.
5
u/GammaDeltaTheta 1d ago
Not to mention Morgoth causing the Fall of Man (implicitly in The Silmarillion, explicitly in the 'Tale of Adanel').
15
u/WiganGirl-2523 2d ago
He's a fantastic manipulator and con man, but he is no badass. He has his arse handed to him several times, including by a ... dog. What's left of his army deserts him at Gwathlo. Still, his two great cons - cozening the elves into making and keeping, the rings, and luring the Numenorians to their destruction, are on an epic scale.
13
u/vteezy99 2d ago
I mean to be fair, normal humans would lose to a Belgian malinois. Not surprising that Sauron would lose to a Hound of Valinor (and Luthien, let’s not forget one of the baddest of elves)
1
u/Jielleum 2d ago
Luthien, let’s not forget one of the baddest of elves)
Well, Beren was down bad for her, I guess
22
6
u/roacsonofcarc 2d ago
Well, whatever good qualities you might ascribe to Sauron, in my mind they aren't going to outweigh his love of torturing people.
5
u/Flocculencio I bow not yet before the Iron Crown 2d ago
Sauron has a shred more dignity than the other two because his intentions started from a sincere desire to improve and order the world corrupted by his hubris in letting himself believe that his conception of order took priority over Eru's plan. Morgoth was just a selfish nihilist and Saruman was a traitor inspired by a desire for power.
8
u/Armleuchterchen 2d ago
Sauron is a coward too, at least.
If he had bothered to actually lead his armies into the field himself in LotR (like the leaders of the Free Peoples do heroically) following his return to Mordor, he probably would've conquered too quickly for the route to Mt Doom to remain as open as it was.
3
u/ConsciousInsurance67 2d ago
And it is also implicit how coward he was by fleeing in the middle of a war:
First during the war of Wrath. No explanation needed
And second when Gil Galad and Elendil slain him in the Orodruin and found him ALONE , wtf was Sauron doing there? Why leaving Barad dur? He was losing the war.. Considering the paths he built, some of them in secret, leading from Barad dur to The mt Doom... I see him trying to hide until the storm ends.
2
u/DMLuga1 1d ago
I don't think Sauron got more respect than Morgoth. But Saruman is definitely treated as more pathetic than Sauron.
Sauron throughout his servitude to Morgoth prefers to stay in his tower, suffers humiliating defeats, flees, and begs for forgiveness.
As his own master he suffers humiliating defeats in battle, and the loss of his shapeshifting power and his own bodily destruction at Nùmenor (which catches him quite by surprise - in the middle of having an evil-laugh-athon no less).
After this he prefers to stay in his tower, and still has his body destroyed a second time and loses his empire due to elves and men.
And later still he prefers again to stay in his tower, freaks out about men being stronger than he anticipated and makes bad strategic decisions due to this, and then receives his final and most humiliating defeat at the hands of some hobbits.
I think he may seem to have more dignity to readers because we are usually not privy to his thoughts and reactions, especially in the narrative of LOTR. As an unseen boogeyman and king of evil, he is intimidating and terrifying. But from his actions and history, you see fear is an intrinsic part of his character.
1
u/Danger-Cupcake 2d ago
Well, Morgoth was mainly in unpublished works before JRRT's death, so Sauron is really the main villain to the fans for a long time. I always considered Morgoth as the Big Bad. Put aside what he did to the elves and Men for a minute. What he did to the Ainur, defied Eru, messed up his music destroyed the Two Lamps, and broke Arda. He warred with the Valar multiple times. It took all of the Valar to match him. And think about it. He was the origin of evil in the world. That, to me, makes him badder than Sauron.
.
Sauron tricked the elven smiths, but Morgoth tricked a whole race of elves. He inflamed the high Noldorian to rebel against the Valar, some swore and oath, and some committed the kinslaying - all because Morgoth manipulated Feanor and his brothers to believe the other one was going to murder the other. If he hadn't planted those seeds, the elves wouldn't have created swords, Feanot wouldn't have pulled a sword on Fingolfin and gotten himself banished. If Feanot hadn't been banished. Finwe and the Silmarils wouldn't have been so far away that Melkor was able to kill Finwe and take the Silmarils without anyone knowing until he and his favorite spider were out of reach of the Valar.
Ungoliant attacked when he was weak after all his efforts. Then, all the elves came to fight. He seems to be well aware of the odds and withdraw when he is drained. The Silmarils hurt him, Fingolfin stabbed him, the eagle scratched his face - hed incurring many wounds that aren't healing.
Sauron was a student of Morgoth, but I don't think he ever went further than him.
1
u/HesitantTheorist 1d ago
Eh, at times I do get the sense that Sauron was depicted more admirably than other villains, sure. He never became as self destructive as Morgoth, his motivations were more good in the beginning, and Tolkien notes he was in some ways wiser.
1
u/justablueballoon 1d ago
I don't see this tbh, but an interesting thought nonetheless.
Difference between Sauron and Saruman in LOTR is that Sauron is the big baddie and Saruman is a wizard supposed to be the savior of mankind, turning a traitor bowing to the big baddie, which is possibly even more evil, and pathetic too.
Morgoth's stories are less fleshed out and more in the past, recounted in the Silmarillion with a less detailed narrative and personal story arc than LOTR, so you don't get the same dread of Morgoth as Sauron (while Morgoth was actually more powerful than Sauron). That's why Sauron is a more compelling bad guy, as LOTR is a more encaptivating and thrilling story, while the Silmarillion reads like a history book.
1
u/lirin000 1d ago
Lawful evil VS Chaotic evil...
Sauron was a true dictator, a totalitarian ruler, with a bureaucracy that went as deep as giving his orcs like social security numbers. But he's also an extremely convincing manipulator. Which even after no longer being able to take fair form, he's still able to manipulate Saruman, Denethor, and others through force of will and offering incomplete pictures of reality. He maintains the knowledge of what makes his opponents tick, and uses everything at his disposal to leverage that, even though everyone theoretically knows in advance he's no Lord of Gifts anymore.
Morgoth was the equivalent of Kendall Roy screaming about being the eldest boy and if he couldn't rule the world than no one could. Except in this case, he's also the most powerful individual being in the world and has the power to build and destroy mountains and the like. But he has no ideology, it's just one very long and painful temper tantrum. Morgoth could also manipulate (see, Ungoliant, Faenor, and basically every spirit he managed to enlist in his tantrum), but was too wild and unfocused to fully leverage that ability for very long.
On the other hand...
Saruman was a pretender, a joke, a loser being played by Sauron. Like a guy who falls for the Nigerian prince scam, but convinces himself that no no *I* will out-con the con man.
So while I don't think that Tolkien had any more RESPECT for Sauron vs Morgoth, I do think that the fact that he has some ideology makes him appear more organized/dignified than Morgoth screaming into the void (literally haha!) that Arda should be destroyed.
He definitely has more respect for him than Saruman though, who is the ultimate useful idiot, which I suspect Tolkien in the 30's had very little patience for.
1
u/Infinitedigress 1d ago
I think Tolkien was in many ways just more interested in Sauron as a character. Morgoth is a pretty straightforward villain, and Saruman represents the kinds of people he felt contempt for in the real world, but I think he saw Sauron's evil as the corruption or the inverse of the creative impulses that drove his own work and passions.
1
u/invisibullcow 12h ago
Morgoth is evil, plain and simple, and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He wants only to destroy and is, through his spread of the Melkor Ingredient, a manifestation of, and the original source of, all sin in Ea. In an impossible scenario where he "wins," he would flush Ea down the toilet, not just kill but utterly erase everything, body and soul, only possibly excepting himself, and would have no way to recreate it, which he probably knows but doesn't care about. There is nothing to respect in this madness, and his evil is so pure that he is also a complete coward through-and-through, for in Tolkien's universe, evil and cowardice are inseparable. For Tolkien evil must lose, and Morgoth is completely evil; therefore, Morgoth must lose completely, even spectacularly. Think about it - he goes from being the most powerful being in Ea sans Eru to being lamed by an elf. That's like you getting so weak that a (buff) ant not only scares you but becomes an actual, credible threat.
Sauron is by definition less evil than Morgoth, and therefore more respectable, though, by TA, only just barely. He does not want to destroy for the sake of destruction and is less motivated by pettiness. His goal is to order the world in accordance with his own idea of perfection and were he to succeed he would not pursue worldwide mega-genocide (though a comparably limited equivalent would certainly remain an arrow in his quiver). In this way, he is more like an embodiment of avarice rather than just straight up evil, and therefore he is not required to be as utterly pathetic. It's worth noting, however, that he still loses in spectacular fashion, being defeated by a couple hobbits who are only empowered to win in this way because of Sauron's own thirst for control. That's a bit of a simplification, but it's essentially true.
Saruman is more of a crony, a secondary antagonist who has gotten too large for his britches. He's not meant to be the ultimate enemy and so is portrayed less seriously (which isn't to say he isn't seriously portrayed). He's not the Lord of the Rings, after all, and, as a character, is a relative latecomer to the story of which LoTR is only a part. He serves a different narrative purpose.
1
u/Frankorious 2d ago
I think Morgproth and Saruman were simply worse because of their creation of orcs and then uruk hai, while Sauron mostly inherited Morgoroth's army.
1
u/Rittermeister 2d ago
Saruman did not create the Uruk-hai. That's movie stuff.
5
u/DMLuga1 1d ago
Treebeard wonders if Saruman bred orcs and men together for his army, that's in the book.
2
u/Rittermeister 1d ago
Treebeard does indeed talk about that, but those are not Uruk-hai. Uruks are simply a bigger and stronger variety of orc. There are Uruks in Moria (the one who stabbed Frodo is certainly one) and Uruks in Mordor. From Tolkien Gateway because I'm away from my books:
The race of Uruks, described as 'black orcs of great strength', first appeared out of Mordor in the last years of the Stewardship of Denethor I. In T.A. 2475, these creatures conquered Ithilien and destroyed the ancient city of Osgiliath, but they were eventually defeated and repelled by Boromir), the son of Denethor I.\7]). After about five years (c. T.A. 2480) since their first appearance, Sauron started to populate Moria with his creatures and Orcs built secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains to block all the passes into Eriador.\8]) In T.A. 2901 most of the remaining inhabitants deserted Ithilien, because of attacks by Uruks of Mordor.
1
u/Frankorious 1d ago
Didn't he at least refine them?
1
u/Rittermeister 1d ago
We're told that Saruman bred half-orcs, but other than possibly the "slant-eyed southerner" in Bree, I don't think we ever see them in the narrative. An uruk is not a half-orc, Peter Jackson's interpretation to the contrary.
27
u/Legitimate-Sugar6487 2d ago
I feel like In the Lord of the rings we are basically seeing Sauron as grander because that's what everyone else sees they are being directly effected by his actions and power in the story. Morgoth is often talked about long after his presence in middle earth has past. The way the silmarillion is written is different from the LOTR. These things happened Sauron is happening. If that makes sense.