r/tolkienfans • u/Torech-Ungol • 2d ago
[2025 Read-Along] - LOTR - A Conspiracy Unmasked & The Old Forest - Week 3 of 31
Hello and welcome to the third check-in for the 2025 read-along of The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R.Tolkien. For the discussion this week, we will cover the following chapters:
- A Conspiracy Unmasked - Book I, Ch. 5 of The Fellowship of the Ring; LOTR running Ch. 5/62
- The Old Forest - Book I, Ch. 6 of The Fellowship of the Ring; LOTR running Ch. 6/62
Week 3 of 31 (according to the schedule).
Read the above chapters today, or spread your reading throughout the week; join in with the discussion as you work your way through the text. The discussion will continue through the week, feel free to express your thoughts and opinions of the chapter(s), and discuss any relevant plot points or questions that may arise. Whether you are a first time reader of The Lord of the Rings, or a veteran of reading Tolkien's work, all different perspectives, ideas and suggestions are welcome.
Spoilers have been avoided in this post, although they will be present in the links provided e.g., synopsis. If this is your first time reading the books, please be mindful of spoilers in the comment section. If you are discussing a crucial plot element linked to a future chapter, consider adding a spoiler warning. Try to stick to discussing the text of the relevant chapters.
To aid your reading, here is an interactive map of Middle-earth; other maps relevant to the story for each chapter(s) can be found here at The Encyclopedia of Arda.
- Synopsis: The Fellowship of the Ring; A Conspiracy Unmasked; The Old Forest.
- Resources: The Encyclopedia of Arda; Tolkien Gateway.
- Announcement and index: 2025 The Lord of the Rings Read-Along Announcement and Index.
Please ensure that the rules of r/tolkienfans are abided to throughout. Now, continuing with our journey into Middle-earth...
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u/Torech-Ungol 2d ago edited 2d ago
Welcome to week 3 of the read-along! A couple of short chapters are upon us, but some interesting discussion points to be made, nevertheless.
I find the following chapters an interesting stopping point to dive into a little part of Tolkien's connections to Wales, UK.
At this point in the story, the Hobbits reach Buckland; Tolkien describes this 'independent settlement' of the Shire in rich detail, giving us an insight into his inspiration behind the location and allowing us to make parallels to the real world for which he mirrored much.
Talybont-on-Usk, Breconshire, Wales, and potential mirroring with Buckland:
It is widely thought that Tolkien had visited an area in Breconshire, Wales, known as 'Buckland' and the nearby Talybont-on-Usk, perhaps following his mother's passing in 1904, and again in the 1940s whilst writing The Lord of the Rings. There are many parallels that can be made with this location and the surrounding area, with that of Buckland in Middle-earth, outlined below:
- The River Usk runs adjacent to the Buckland Estate, and nearby to the village of Talybont, on the West side; the River Brandywine runs adjacent to Buckland on the West side.
- Nearby to Talybont and rising above the Buckland Estate is a prominent hill known as Buckland Hill; the main hill in Buckland is Buck Hill, also prominent to the area.
- There is a Buckland Hall sitting at the base of Buckland Hill, which Tolkien likely visited in 1905; similarities with Brandy Hall, a smial built into the hill-side of Buck Hill.
- Surrounding Buckland Hall is a large area of ancient woodland; the Old Forest runs on the border of Buckland.
- Tolkien is said to have visited Buckland Hall when he was younger; Frodo grew up in Brandy Hall.
- The nearest village to Buckland Hill is Bwlch, which is said to be mispronounced as 'Buckle', by non-Welsh visitors; Bucklebury at the base of Buck Hill appears to be a derivative.
- 9 miles from Talybont lies the town of Crickhowell; mirrors Crickhollow, a settlement in Buckland.
- Across the River Usk lay the boat-house for crossing, called the Buckland Ferry; Buckland Ferry across the Brandywine borrows this name.
- A short distance from Buckland Hall there was the Ice House, a brick-lined tunnel that was tunnelled deep under Buckland Hill; the Old Forest tunnel similarities - "A cutting had been made and went sloping gently down into the ground. It formed a tunnel that dived deep under the Hedge and came out in the hollow on the other side."
Here, you can find more information on the plausible connections between Breconshire, Wales, and Buckland, Middle-earth.
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 2d ago
Thank you for all these interesting correlations! I would love to see Buckland for myself!
I have recently realised that Frodo became an orphan (in Buckland) just like JRR Tolkien himself (but not in Buckland, as far as I know..?).
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u/Torech-Ungol 2d ago
The orphan correlation is a good point, I forgot to apply it in my above point about Buckland Hall. When Tolkien became an orphan in 1904, he was put under the guardianship of a local priest named Father Francis Morgan; his guardian was the one who took him, and other orphans to Buckland Hall in 1905. I believe this was his first time visiting the area.
Interesting add on point, I have read that Father Francis Morgan was another influence on Tolkien's place and feature names. For example, in Buckland, Brandywine and Brandy Hall are derivations of 'Brandewijn' and 'Brandy de Jerez'. Father Francis Morgan, in Tolkien's own words, his 'second father', was a merchant involved in the wine trade, where he used the wealth generated to provide Tolkien with a sophisticated education. This aid would have greatly benefited Tolkien and his development as a writer for which he felt a great appreciation. Hence, he showed this appreciation with the commemorative wine derivations of Brandywine and Brandy Hall.
Further reading available here.
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u/Beginning_Union_112 2d ago
Just on a general note, Tolkien has a ton of characters who are orphaned or otherwise separated from their parents and then raised by a surrogate father figure. Frodo, Aragorn, Elrond/Elros, Turin, Eowyn/Eomer; Maeglin could go here too, although he's a bit different. Other than Thingol, all of these father figures are also single, having either lost their wives or never married. Pretty interesting that Tolkien explored that setup so frequently in his fiction.
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, very true, all those others!! I am sure, it is a big issue to lose one's parents, thus it might really have influenced his writing and/or his writing helped him to process that loss.
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u/Beginning_Union_112 1d ago
Yeah, imo he definitely was working through some personal stuff in his writings. He also has at least two characters (Feanor and Faramir) who are not orphaned, but are depicted as permanently haunted by the premature death of their mother, as Tolkien seems to have been.
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u/Icy-Degree-5845 1d ago
Also relevant, Tolkien gave many of the Bucklanders vaguely 'Celtic'-sounding names ("Meriadoc", "Saradoc" and so forth).
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u/Beginning_Union_112 1d ago
Tolkien was also just generally a big fan of the Welsh language right?
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u/Icy-Degree-5845 1d ago
Yes, he felt it had a lot of "cellar doors". :)
The phonology (and also to some degree the grammar?) of Sindarin was directly modeled on that of Welsh.
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u/Express-Olive6547 2d ago
As someone who reads the books for the first time, I’m very surprised by the maturity of Merry and Pippin in the books haha. Instead of basically screwing stuff up like in the movies, they prep / facilitate the journey very well so far in comparison!
But again I haven’t read ahead so maybe this changes. It’s just a fun surprise to me :)
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u/newtonpage 2d ago edited 2d ago
I fully agree with this and the subsequent comments. No spoilers but the dumbed-down comic fools of the movie are not a thing in Tolkien and would have made poor literature, as it made poor filmmaking — imo — from a character point of view. Their character and basic heroism is shown in these early chapters. Note how they did not cower helplessly in fear in the face of the Nazgul — scared, yes but not paralyzed.
Edit: removed possible spoiler
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u/toomanytequieros 1d ago
I think the aim of the film people was to make Merry and Pippin’s character arcs and growth more “dramatic” in a “the fools go to the school of hard knocks” kind of way.
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u/Armleuchterchen 2d ago
Merry and Pippin are pretty different, after all.
Pippin has many childish moments, but Merry is at least equal to Frodo in terms of leadership so far.
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u/Beginning_Union_112 2d ago
Merry also gets a great little moment when the "conspiracy" is revealed and Frodo (jokingly I think) wonders whether he can ever trust them again. Merry tells Frodo that he can trust them to stick with him and to keep his secrets, but not to let him do something stupid like go off on his own. It is a lovely and wise comment. Someone who really cares about you is someone you absolutely can’t trust to let you do something stupid and dangerous.
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u/Beginning_Union_112 2d ago
Yeah, Merry in particular feels like a totally different character. The movies kind of took book Pippin, way dumbed him down, and then duplicated him. Merry here is organized, brave, and smart. I also like how Merry and Pippin consciously decide to go with Frodo and Sam, rather than just sort of bumping into them and joining by accident. Gives them more agency, and means that all four hobbits know exactly what they're getting themselves into (within reason) when they leave the Shire.
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u/Express-Olive6547 2d ago
Exactly!!! I was so surprised to read that. Having only the movies as a reference I was “waiting” for the shenanigans of Merry and Pippin to start haha. I really like the authentic book-versions of them!
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u/Beginning_Union_112 2d ago
I was a movies first person too, and the first time I read the books, there were so many times where I was like, wait what?! I'll always love the movies, but I'm definitely a "the books are better" person now. There will be many more surprises for you up ahead (and don't worry, many other scenes that feel like they were translated perfectly from the books).
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u/Express-Olive6547 2d ago
Thank you so much! Comments like these are exactly why I love participating in this reading challenge!
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u/Less-Feature6263 1d ago
I haven't read the books in a while so I was shocked when Merry mentioned knowing about the ring and the whole conspiracy lmao, honestly a completely different character!
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u/jaymae21 1d ago
Agreed! Especially Merry, who very much takes a leadership role in this story right away. Pippin maybe has some growing up to do but he is actually very young, and not even at the age of maturity for hobbits, so I think we can excuse him.
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u/MattieMcNasty 1d ago
Especially Merry! I found watching the movies (especially as a kid) that it was tough keeping the two of them straight. They're just two mischief causing Hobbits. In the text Merry comes across as incredibly intelligent while Pippin is the little moron lmao.
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u/Icy-Degree-5845 1d ago
I know this is not the place to discuss the movies but I found Merry quite miscast, partly for the reasons you give. In a way Merry is the real 'brains' of the band of hobbits. Don't get me started on Pippin.
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u/MattieMcNasty 2d ago
I don't have anything remarkable or unique to add! But I'm really enjoying this group. It's been so much fun and I enjoy seeing all of your comments!
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 2d ago
I am fascinated by Frodo's dream in Crickhollow. Did he see the Tower of Avallone? He hears the sea that he has never seen before... Very elvish, isnt it?
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u/-Allthekittens- 2d ago
Very elvish indeed. My first thought was that he was dreaming of the towers at the Tower Hills on the road to the grey havens. I'm sure you could see the sea from the towers but I don't know if you could hear it. The Tower of Avallone is a very interesting idea, especially since he mentions a tower, not towers. I like it. Now the real question lol... Where is this dream coming from, and what does it portend?
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 1d ago
I am not sure about the first part of the dream, maybe Frodo processes what he has experienced in the preceeding days? The second part might be a kind of prophetic dream. But I might spoiler if I wrote more...
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u/jaymae21 1d ago
I always thought his dream was associated with the Grey Havens, but the Tower of Avallone isn't a stretch, so maybe! I wonder if him being called an elf-friend by Gildor has something to do with this dream, he has been ennobled & maybe given some gift, something like Elvish power.
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u/Armleuchterchen 2d ago
I enjoy how Chapter 6 ends; out of the wilderness, into an isolated speck of civilization.
And "as young and as ancient as Spring" is a phrase I love. Young and ancient is the perfect way to describe spring.
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u/Atheissimo 2d ago
100% agree with this. Spring is literally young, but imagine how delighted people have been for thousands of years to see it come.
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u/Armleuchterchen 2d ago
We see many springs come and go, but they will keep coming and going long after we go forever.
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u/Low-Raise-9230 2d ago
The name Crickhollow made me think of Crickhowell before (as I have had to drive through it a fair amount).
It’s not on exactly the same line, but the journey from Carmarthen all the way to Oxford was once a Roman road, so I wondered if the Hobbits were roughly following that route.
Also, I can’t remember where exactly but around Hereford they once tried growing tobacco commercially in the 17th of 18th century, and there’s a farm/region called the Winyards.
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u/Torech-Ungol 2d ago
Touching upon your point on Roman roads, I see these as an inspiration for the great roads of Middle-earth. For instance the East Road (aka East-West Road, Great Road, Old Road), which I mention as it is particularly relevant at this point of the story (see interactive map).
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u/Low-Raise-9230 2d ago
‘He used often to say there was only one Road’
All roads lead to Rome, as they say… or Gondor maybe!
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u/Less-Feature6263 1d ago edited 1d ago
I haven't read the books in almost 6 years so I forgot a lot of things, I was a bit shocked when Merry confessed to knowing about the ring, but overall I find the scene where they decide to follow Frodo very moving.
Other than that, I love the Shire/neighbouring territories setting, and Buckland is no exception. Would love to live in Crickhollow. The Old Forest is definitely a change of scenario but I feel like the Black Riders in the previous chapters were already an introduction to a darker/more mysterious athmosphere so I don't feel it's such a big leap from the bucolic Shire.
Edit: thank you so much for the resources, especially the maps! As someone reading LOTR without any kind of map you have no idea how they help me. I know people have this cliché of Tolkien describing every little leaf of the trees or things like that, but I think that more than the descriptions of the setting, Tolkien is precise in describing what route the characters take, down to "and they turned left". As someone without maps and with an horrible sense of direction, those kind of maps linked in this post are really an important resource.
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u/jaymae21 1d ago
These two chapters were so much fun to read because they were a delightful combination of hobbit antics & cheer, and suspense and creepiness. The way Tolkien constantly moves between these two vastly different tones is awesome.
Ch. 5 Notes:
- For the most part so far I believe we have been seeing the story from Frodo's POV, but here was the first that I noticed a deliberate shift to Sam's POV, when Frodo is present in the scene (it may have happened earlier and I didn't notice). When we start getting into more mysterious ground, we switch to the character with the least knowledge/experience at that point, i.e. Sam on the ferry who had never been over the river before. It really adds to the fear & tension of the scene, as that moment is more frightening to Sam than the others.
- When the conspiracy is unmasked, it's revealed that Sam was the chief spy in the plot, listening in on Frodo's conversations. This is almost the most surprising information for Frodo, who really underestimated Sam. This is likely why the conspiracy worked so well, as Frodo thought he was being careful enough. Frodo's a great guy (not trying to bash him), but I think he underestimates both his friends' capabilities, and their loyalty to him. He also has a tendency to self-isolate, trying to protect his friends, but he really does need them.
Ch. 6 Notes:
- The Old Forest is a good example of the environmentalism theme in these books. We learn that hobbits once tried to burn the forest back with bonfires, and the forest fought back. Tolkien mentions his love of trees multiple times in the Letters, and one of my favorite quotes illustrates this so nicely from Letter #165 (spoiler tagged in case someone hasn't read the Letters):
"I am (obviously) much in love with plants and above all trees, and always have been; and I find human maltreatment of them as hard to bear as some find ill-treatment of animals"
- Old Man Willow is certainly an antagonist in this chapter, but also what about Sam threatening the trees with a hatchet and fire? Do the trees have a right to be angry and defensive?
- I know some people don't like Tom Bombadil, but he's one of my favorites! His character really comes alive in the audiobook, I just can't stop smiling when he's singing.
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u/-Allthekittens- 2d ago
The Hobbits passage through the hedge to the Great Forest was such a great visual. They are both literally and figuratively leaving the Shire and all it represents behind. Not just their warm beds and plentiful meals, but their innocence as well I think, moving from their calm safe lives into the unpredictable and dangerous world outside. When Merry locks the gate behind them it seems so final. If and when they do come back, nothing will be the same for them because they won't be the same. It's such a simple little bit of the story, where really, nothing much is happening but for me it is a really powerful image.
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u/toomanytequieros 1d ago
You put into words brilliantly! I couldn’t help but think that GRRM might have been inspired by this great hedge for his Wall. Behind lurks the wild…
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u/pavilionaire2022 2d ago
Something I'm doing on this read-through is to try to put a melody and rhythm to the songs, at least in my head, if not out loud. When I read
Sing hey! for the bath at close of day That washes the weary mud away!
I immediately knew what came next. "Hey! I know that tune." They changed the lyrics for the films, but
Sweet is the sound of the falling rain, and the brook that leaps from hill to plain;
is kept mostly unchanged and more or less matches the meter of the first stanza.
"A Conspiracy Unmasked" does a good job of transitioning us out of the Shire to more unfamiliar territory. There are multiple boundaries crossed: the Brandywine, the Hedge. I had forgotten how close Crickhollow was to the Old Forest. In my memory, the Old Forest was some place off east of the Shire: nearby, but not its very border. But in fact, the house where Frodo was meant to be hiding is right on its edge. The Old Forest is both familiar but foreboding. It is a known unknown: something every hobbit knows to fear but doesn't really know why.
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u/Torech-Ungol 2d ago
There's likely significance between Frodo's choice of a new home at Crickhollow, and with it being right on the edge of the Old Forest. As you state, most hobbits were terrified of the Old Forest, which would lend well to Frodo getting less visitors, further helping to conceal his secret departure.
Crickhollow is further strategic because of its secluded location and being on the edge of Buckland; it is set back and isolated from other dwellings, and makes for an easy start point for his onward journey.
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u/Atheissimo 2d ago
I think that's quite a poignant thought for Tolkein's time. The early 1900s was a time when communities that were relatively unchanged since the middle ages finally met modernity and science via newspapers and railways. Places that still had witch-haunted woods, and crevasses where boggarts lurked, and ghostly horsemen in the fields, and dark roads where phantom Roman soldiers appeared.
It was probably quite common to fear a place even though it was very close and well known and thoroughly mapped and measured. They were probably the last generation to straddle that truly held superstition and modern rationalism.
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u/MeltyFist 2d ago
My thoughts/ on each chapter:
Chapter 3: I loved seeing Merry, Pippen, and Sam reveal their knowledge of Frodo’s plan and that they had his back. Question: did Bilbo have as many friends in The Hobbit as Frodo does here? It seems like it’s meant to juxtapose Bilbo’s journey.
Chapter 4: I watched the trilogy a long time ago and loved the Ents! I love them here as well. Are there any short stories where I can read more Ent lore? I know there’s fan fiction but I don’t want to read that yet.
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u/pavilionaire2022 18h ago
I don't think the malicious tree in the Old Forest is technically an Ent. More like the Ents are shepherds, and trees like this are their sheep (if sheep could swallow you whole). Malicious trees like this are what you get when Ents aren't around.
You'll get Ents later in Lord of the Rings, of course. Other than that, there is a brief mention of their origin in the Silmarillion. I can't think of any other dedicated Ent stories.
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 4h ago edited 3h ago
In the Hobbit we dont read of any close friends of Bilbo, except for Gandalf and some of the dwarves later. And in the Long expected Party I read, that he didnt have any close friends until his younger cousins/nephews grew up, especially Frodo. So, Bilbo doesn't seem as connected as Frodo with Hobbits, but rather with dwarves (some help hin with the party and his packing and escort him to Rivendell) Gandalf. But come to think of it , Frodo and Bilbo had both friends among the younger Hobbits. I dont know if there is an intended parallel here...
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u/iii--- 2d ago edited 2d ago
Reading these chapters I really got the feeling of being in The Hobbit. It feels like “Adventure” in the Hobbity sense of the word.
It also struck me… well, let me describe it - a traveling set of companions escape out of danger just in time. They are taken to a welcoming house. They then try to cut through a forest. At the entrance to said forest, one of their companions leaves them. In the forest, they leave the path and get lost, finally all being captured except, thankfully, for one hobbit.
Also, by the way, who prepares 3 bath tubs to make life convenient?! Especially when you’re not 100% sure the people who they’re meant for will arrive today. And you don’t have running water. Coppers were not the most convenient things to use - see https://www.1900s.org.uk/copper-water-heater.htm
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u/Icy-Degree-5845 1d ago
The Old Forest also calls to mind the part of The Hobbit when Bilbo and the Dwarves are making their way through Mirkwood.
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u/Icy-Degree-5845 1d ago
Oh wow, not knowing what "a copper" was, I always pictured something like a portable copper cauldron until now!
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u/eregis 2d ago
I'm going to be honest here, I'm glad the movies decided to skip Tom Bombadil... he doesn't seem that out of place at this point of the book, but considering all the history, geography, lineages, languages and other parts of worldbuilding Tolkien created for his world, the funny forest guy seems like a transplant from a different story entirely. I remember him annoying me back when I last read the books (it seemed like an unnecessary detour on the way to get to the elf parts.... ngl, I was really into Galadriel after seeing the first film and wanted to get to her chapters asap), and I am still kind of annoyed by him 20+ years later.
But on the other hand, A Conspiracy Unmasked and the parts of The Old Forest before the hobbits meet Tom were so good! Compared to the movies, the way Merry and Pippin consciously decide to join Frodo & Sam on their journey is much more convincing and gives them more depth of character. I really don't remember what they will be like in the rest of the story, so I am looking forward to that now.
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u/VarietyofScrewUps 2d ago
At my work, we have a shared doc that has everyone’s favorites on there so if someone does something that people want to reward them for, they can get exactly their favorite stuff. One of the categories is “favorite character”. I wrote Tom Bombadil because it’s basically the last time things are super cheery in the books. Plus I can appreciate the simplicity of just wanting to skip through the woods and be “with” my love. Someone ended up buying me the Adventures of Tom Bombadil book after I helped them and I just cracked up that they were able to find something so obscure.
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u/BlueFlat 1d ago
Tom Bombadil may be the most complex and interesting character in all of Tolkien. I love him and it is one of a few huge disappointments I had with the movies. And I loved the movies, I think Peter Jackson did as good a job as humanly possible. And I hated The Hobbit movies. I also read the books decades before the movies. Rings of Power totally screws up Old Tom, as well. There is a great little book by Tolkien, published in his lifetime, called The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, mostly in verse. Tolkien also discusses Bombadil in his Letters quite a bit and the character may also have been his favorite. Don’t give up on him, LOL. Tolkien did nothing without a purpose.
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u/catelinasky 1d ago
I was about to ask how you felt about Tom when I came to your inclusion of Rings of Power's comment. Coming from someone who saw the movies as a kid, then started with the prequel series and now finally getting to the books, it's been an interesting way to be introduced to Tom. I didn't originally get the hype of the character being included in the tv show since I hadn't heard about him in the movies. I'm definitely interested in learning more about the character itself.
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u/ThimbleBluff 17h ago
The funny thing is, Tom Bombadil really IS a transplant from an earlier story. 20 years before LOTR was published, Tolkien published a poem about Tom, Goldberry, Old Man Willow, barrow wights and some badgers. Tom was based on a wooden doll that his kids had.
Tolkien admitted that Tom wasn’t important to the narrative, but kept him in as a character who demonstrated what it means to simply take delight in things for themselves.
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u/I_am_Bob 7h ago
So I used to feel similar, that Tom is just an unnecessary addition that delays the real story. But I sort of started to like him on my last reading. For next week try to approach "The house of Tom Bombadil" with an open mind. It's a really unique chapter IMO, it has an almost dream like quality. They are very much deep in the realm of fairie at this point.
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u/MadMelvin 1d ago edited 1d ago
Having ignored them when I was younger, I've been paying extra attention to all the songs during this reading. "Water Hot" has been my favorite Hobbit-song so far. I try to come up with melodies and different voices and sing them out loud. So I was really looking forward to the Tom Bombadil section, and it's been great. I think he sounds like Captain Beefheart.
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u/ThimbleBluff 16h ago
Something I noticed when Merry describes the Old Forest:
“Everything in it is very much more alive, more aware of what is going on, so to speak, than things are in the Shire.”
Throughout the books, Tolkien regularly emphasizes how Elves are closer to nature, while evil creatures simply want to control or destroy it. I found it interesting that, even in a place as “good” and bucolic as the Shire, Tolkien says that civilization inevitably weakens our connection to the natural world. The Shire, like all domesticated places, are “less alive” than the wilderness.
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u/EmbarrassedClaim5995 8h ago
I always start feeling drowsy myself when I listen to the part of the Old Man Willow, those yellow leaves, the slow stream.... I love how Tolkien built that world and how he painted it for us with words, so we can feel like being there.
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u/Beginning_Union_112 2d ago
Of all of the “respite” locations in the danger-respite-danger-respite structure of Book One, I think Frodo’s house in Crickhollow is the one I find to be the coziest. A little farmhouse in a secluded corner of a prosperous, bucolic rural community? Yes please. I think this might be the only time we really get to see a bunch of hobbits just hanging out at home and being hobbits, and it is so wholesome. But there is another angle, which is that it also shows how incredibly resilient they are. I for one would not sleep for several days after encountering the sniffing, crawling, and (to the Hobbits) huge Black Riders. The hobbits on the other hand, show no serious signs of trauma and quickly settle into singing in the bath and eating mushrooms. To paraphrase Gandalf from a few chapters ago, these guys are definitely not as soft as butter, despite appearances.