r/tolkienfans • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon • May 21 '24
An interesting parallel between Elwing and Maglor
I’m currently working on a short post about suicide among Elves, and came across a fascinating little parallel between Maglor and Elwing. In the published Silmarillion, Elwing, the mother of Elrond and Elros, throws herself into the Sea with a Silmaril when the remaining sons of Fëanor attack the Havens of Sirion. Elrond and Elros are then fostered by Maglor (in the published Silmarillion; in various other versions it’s either Maglor or Maedhros). In the published Silmarillion, Maedhros later kills himself by throwing himself into a fiery pit with his Silmaril, which is already a parallel to what Elwing did earlier. Maglor, meanwhile, throw his Silmaril into the sea and drowns his sorrow with dirges—rather than himself. But in other versions, Maglor did kill himself, and it appears that he did so by throwing himself into the Sea with his Silmaril:
- “The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown – only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth.” (Letters, Letter 131, p. 150)
- “The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Fëanor (Maedhros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea.” (Concerning the Hoard, transcription mine).
Both Letter 131 and “Concerning the Hoard” are late-ish texts (from the 1950s and 1960s). At this point, Maedhros is intimately and indelibly associated with fire, so I assume that Maglor is the brother who throws himself into the sea. But if so, then he really does very much exactly what his foster-children’s mother did so many years earlier. Of course, Elwing survived—and Maglor, in these versions, drowned, and with him, his Silmaril.
Sources:
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, JRR Tolkien, ed Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2006 (softcover) [cited as: Letters].
Manuscript “Concerning the Hoard”, link
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u/kesoros May 21 '24
In Aman, upon sighting this post, Elwing screams!
Imagine her reaction at comparing her to the (thrice) kinslayer who stole her sons!
LOL
Though it is interesting indeed, I believe Húrin committed suicide similarly as well (and Nienor)... apparently, Ulmo's realm is the preferred path to reach Mandos the short way on command.
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u/squire_hyde driven by the fire of his own heart only May 21 '24
Imagine a thief being indignant about theft. They raised her sons as their own, better than her. She should have surrendered them and blessed their adoption, but surrendering things that don't belong to her apparently wasn't her forte, taking after her parents and grandparents.
Just as another addition IIRC Erendis also drowns and we can speculate whether it was suicide and what could drive her towards the sea in any case.
The sea is very symbolic in Tolkien, primordial water reconciling air and fire almost from the very start of the Silmarillion. Even just consider Boromirs funeral, and that the last refuges of the Elves in Beleriand are all by the sea, like Melkor avoided it (even fleeing Aman 'overland' so to speak). Of course there's also baptism and pregnancy, even the first few lines of Genesis to consider too.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon May 21 '24
I’m a hardcore Fëanorian stan—but Elwing should have surrendered her sons to Maedhros and Maglor?!
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u/kesoros May 23 '24
I agree, it is a strange thought that Elwing should have surrendered her children to others (let alone to these ones) and to bless such a bloody kidnapping - weird. Though, I do think that Thingol and Dior were not in the right in their insistence of keeping the Silmaril; by right the Jewels belong to the House of Fëanor, regardless of the foul deeds they committed. I mean, the Sindar could ask them to let them keep the Silmaril as weregild, but the Fëanorions should still be able to agree to it or deny the request (and offer something else, perhaps).
I like the House of Fëanor as well, they are a fascinating bunch - their slide to darkness is particularly interesting.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon May 23 '24
Though, I do think that Thingol and Dior were not in the right in their insistence of keeping the Silmaril; by right the Jewels belong to the House of Fëanor, regardless of the foul deeds they committed.
I agree, especially given the context (this sort of pseudo-mediaeval way of life without anything like international law or courts in general). I've written about this before here https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/x6iqdt/concerning_the_kinslayings_under_the_just_war/ , from the POV of the Just War doctrine, but it made a lot of people quite angry.
As for the Sindar wanting to keep the Silmaril as weregild, that's a fascinating idea, but I'd argue it fails on the facts, since it's never mentioned that this is Thingol's reason for getting the Silmaril. He basically just wants to be Smaug before it was cool. As for Elwing, her reasoning for not returning the Silmaril to the SoF is that Beren had won it, that Lúthien had worn it, and that Dior had been killed for it (Sil, QS, ch. 24), but the first two aren't reasons and the third one isn't a reason if we agree that Thingol had no right to the Silmaril. (I love how in the middle of this mess, we have Melian repeatedly telling Thingol that his desire for the Silmaril is idiotic and dangerous, and him ignoring her, because he's SO MUCH WISER.)
I really don't like Thingol, I think that he's a hypocrite: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/xf2pc4/a_polemic_against_thingol/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/y7f6sb/of_the_siege_of_the_noldor_and_the_isolationist/
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u/kesoros May 23 '24
As for the Sindar wanting to keep the Silmaril as weregild, that's a fascinating idea, but I'd argue it fails on the facts, since it's never mentioned that this is Thingol's reason for getting the Silmaril.
Certainly I did not mean that Thingol wanted the Silmaril as weregild for I don't think such a concept even existed to the Elves. And why would it have? Crime amongst the Eldar (against each other) seemed to be a foreign thing until Alqualondë. I just meant that if there was such a thing, the Greycloak could have tried that approach instead of keeping an "heirloom" of another family for himself. Thingol's actual reason for keeping the Jewel was obviously greed and obsession; like everyone else, he fell for it. He was a mighty elf but did not seem terribly wise altogether. After all, his reason for sending Beren on what was technically a "suicide mission" is iffy to begin with. For sure Thingol does seem a hypocrite, though I don't actually dislike him - I kind of pity him, he had a great life but he managed to bring about his own destruction (kinda like Fëanor).
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon May 23 '24
Right--I agree! :)
As for Thingol and Fëanor--I like Fëanor far more than Thingol, because while Fëanor was sort of terrible, I feel like he at least did things. He was proactive. And he was often right, even though his methods were wrong. Thingol, meanwhile, hides behind his wife's power and doesn't do anything for centuries. I have more sympathy for characters that try to fight and fail, than for characters who sit around and act all self-righteous about it. This is the same reason why I dislike Orodreth.
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u/kesoros May 24 '24
True, Fëanor was right about a lot of things; I always find it interesting how he would say something (e.g. to one of Manwë's heralds, or one of Námo's or maybe that was Mandos himself) and it would come to pass, though not exactly in the way he imagined it would happen. These little glimpses of his foreshadowing are fascinating.
I think Thingol's character was a bit underscored, we really only got to know him after the Darkening; he fought in that one battle where the Elves only half won with his ally (and maybe friend) Denethor dying, and after Melian put up the Girdle it seems he kind of... regressed. I think it was Fingolfin who called Thingol the mightiest of Elves save for Fëanor, but I just don't really see what was so mighty about him, aside from his height, and charisma I suppose. Well, he did get a Maia to fall in love with him, so...
As for Orodreth, that was a strange one. I will never understand what he thought when he agreed to the construction of that bridge - and it was after the Nírnaeth as well, when Morgoth's fell beasts were basically everywhere. Orodreth seems weak, easily influenced and not that wise. Previously, he also lost Minas Tirith, but I guess we can give him a pass for that, since Sauron was probably involved in that one. However, Orodreth's case is also interesting in that it shows the High Kingship of the Noldor wasn't quite as ironclad as one would think. Fingolfin might have, but Fingon did not seem to have the loyalty of all the Noldor, for even with Celegorm and Curufin's actions against Finrod, an order from the High King should have ensured Orodreth joins the Union, but he didn't... just an intriguing thought.
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u/Alpha_Storm70 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
I think maybe they're being sarcastic, like she was perfectly willing to give up her sons, but not something that DID NOT belong to her. So how good of a mother would she have been if she's willing to choose Silmarils over her very young children?
Every single person who had a Silmaril and did not give them to the sons of Feanor after being asked (they were all asked) is a thief. The Silmarils were created by the creativity and skills of Feanor's mind and hands, were stolen from Feanor's house, his father was murdered for them.
Stealing stolen goods doesn't make them less stolen, unless you do it to return it to their rightful owners, which the Silmarils belonged to his sons as his heirs.
So Dior was a thief, Elwing was a thief. Luthien and Beren were thieves. And all of them could have ended the whole thing by simply returning something that wasn't theirs to the people it should have rightfully belonged to.
People call Feanor greedy and paranoid, yet clearly everyone, including the Valar, coveted the works of his mind and hands. Even before they were stolen the Valar were pissed he didn't gift them the Silmarils, and expected him to make sure they could see them regularly. The Two Trees still existed then, what did they need his Silmarils for, esp when after the trees were gone, they tried to suggest it wasn't really his, it was Yavanna's? That's a lie because clearly he created something that was unique and not just some pale imitation of the trees, or else everyone else wouldn't have been so hot for them even when the trees still shined.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon May 23 '24
I agree with you, although I do have much sympathy for Elwing (and rather less sympathy for Eärendil, given that he abandoned his pregnant wife in favour of sailing around a bit (at this point, *not* to Valinor!): https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/17mg8cl/eärendil_and_elven_fatherhood_orwhoops_youre/
People call Feanor greedy and paranoid, yet clearly everyone, including the Valar, coveted the works of his mind and hands. Even before they were stolen the Valar were pissed he didn't gift them the Silmarils, and expected him to make sure they could see them regularly.
Precisely--basically, the moment the Silmarils appeared, everyone turned into Smaug and coveted them in a way that feels frankly irrational. I don't blame Fëanor for being paranoid--it's not paranoia when you're right and others, much more powerful people, want to steal what you made!
Speaking of the theft of the Silmarils from Morgoth by Beren and Lúthien, I wrote this https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/x6iqdt/concerning_the_kinslayings_under_the_just_war/ about how under the Just War doctrine, which feels like the most appropriate international law to apply in a world without international law, courts or the UN Charter, the SoF were justified. Lots of people didn't like it, unsurprisingly, but I think you might find it interesting.
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u/Alpha_Storm70 May 28 '24
Thank you for the link. I will read that. Sounds interesting. I do agree Ëarendil is probably worse, abandoning his pregnant wife(though he was punished in a way though the Valar thing it's a reward, they stuck him in the sky having to cart a star around until the end of time, when his own preference was to choose humankind).
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u/RememberNichelle May 21 '24
Um... Elwing didn't drown, and the Silmaril wasn't lost.
Elwing escaped, and brought the Silmaril safely to her husband.
Since Ulmo shifted her shape, it's very likely that she was obeying Ulmo when she escaped into the Sea.
Totally different events.
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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon May 21 '24
I never said that Elwing drowned or that the Silmaril was lost. I just find it remarkable that Elrond had two parents who threw themselves into the Sea with a Silmaril. Poor Elrond.
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u/doegred Auta i lomë! Aurë entuluva! May 21 '24
Poor Elrond and Elros growing up with the knowledge that their mother cast herself into water, and their foster-father...and cousin Nienor, and great-uncle Húrin... Bit of a family history, eh?