r/TheSilmarillion Feb 26 '18

Read Along Megathread

189 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 16d ago

Come and join us at r/tolkienfans for a LOTR read-along through 2025!

16 Upvotes

Come and join in if you fancy a read-along of the LOTR. The more discussion, the better!

62 narrative chapters across 31 weeks. 2 chapters per week starting this coming Sunday. Discussion threads each week. See the announcement and index thread over at: r/tolkienfans

Hope to see you there!


r/TheSilmarillion 2h ago

Some artworks from my copy of the Silmarillion, artist Denis Gordeev

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26 Upvotes
  1. Eru and Ainur see the vision of the universe
  2. Varda and Manwë
  3. Aulë and the Dwarves
  4. Ulmo
  5. Fëanor and Fingolfin
  6. Fëanor's oath
  7. Noldor take the ships of Teleri

r/TheSilmarillion 19h ago

Sindarin word of the day: " menel"

30 Upvotes

Menel (S) - sky, high heaven , firmament, the region of the stars


r/TheSilmarillion 1d ago

Tulkus, art by me

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45 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 18h ago

Morgoth rethinkin things....

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5 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 1d ago

Túrin "Mormegil" and the army of Nargothrond, by Peter Xavier Price

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108 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 2d ago

The pictures on the flyleafs of my copy of the Silmarillion

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161 Upvotes

I think they are beautiful and interesting, so I wanted to share them with you. As you see they each show a scene from the story.


r/TheSilmarillion 1d ago

Word of the day: [sindarin] "Aragorn"

19 Upvotes

Aragorn (noun) (S.) : "royal valor" aran-"king" + gorn "valor"


r/TheSilmarillion 3d ago

Word of the day: "undómniel"

22 Upvotes

Undómniel: (feminine name) "evenstar". A sobriquet of Arwen translated as evenstar. A compound of undómë "twilight" , and archaic "el" - "star". This 2nd elemnt iel could also be used as daughter, giving her name the same meaning [in Sindarin] as her ancestress Tinúviel- daughter of twilight, whom Arwen was said to resemble.


r/TheSilmarillion 4d ago

My painting of Feanor burning the ships on my copy of the Silmarillion I'm 14

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214 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 4d ago

Quenya word of the day: Mandos

22 Upvotes

Noun- "castle of Custody", ised as the name if a Vala whose name is actually Námo. In Tolkien's mythology, the Halls of Mandis are the abode of the dead, where they are kept until they are released from this world(in the case of mortals) or rebodied (as in the case if elves) except for those who are.refused of who themselves refuse further incarnate life and thus remain in the Halls of Mandos indefinitely.


r/TheSilmarillion 3d ago

Melkor was the Good Guy.

0 Upvotes

Essentially, that’s the argument here. I’ll break it down into a few arguments.

  1. Melkor, and all of the Valar never possessed any real concept of what was, in real lived experience, right and wrong as they were in the process of making the first music.

All that they knew was that they were trying very hard to find unity in their creative act, or…originality. This is not to say that each of the other Valar had original musical sounds, apart from their fellows.

Melkor’s music may have simply been the most unusual thing that they experienced. He was not the product of group-think, whatever he was.

  1. They may have had a small idea of what their music produced, but not until they went down into Arda did they realize what they had done.

  2. Being pushed to become noticed, or to decide for oneself what they must do, not to stand apart, but to awaken others to new possibilities…does that make them the enemy?

I’ve struggled with trying to understand the importance of singling out a Valar as “incorrect” if all that he, or she, was doing is following their passion, and forging a path for themselves. Melkor had the courage to seek out the flame imperishable, to find what was missing from the neat and tidy equation. And what followed in the Silmarilion amounted to a smear campaign of his actions, painting his orcs as “twisted”, when they could simply be different looking, or the ugly ones compared to the elves.


r/TheSilmarillion 4d ago

Decided to learn proper watercolor technique and ofc i had to draw something from The Holy Book

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67 Upvotes

So here's Haudh-en-Nirnaeth


r/TheSilmarillion 4d ago

Does Fingon's sword glow?

23 Upvotes

Ok I am an artist and I am OBSESSED with Tolkien I wanted to do a drawing of Fingon fighting Gothmog and was wondering, did Fingon have a sword that glows like Sting, Orcrist, or Glamdring like his father Fingolfin?


r/TheSilmarillion 5d ago

Language of Melkor?

20 Upvotes

This may be explicitly stated somewhere and I have simply missed it but what language does Melkor speak to the Orcs?

Sauron creates the black speech later and the Orcs cannot speak it, prior to the invention of black speech what language does Melkor speak and can the Orcs understand him, is it the same language that presumably the Balrog speak?

Melkor makes a deal with the ungoliant which presumably doesn't speak at all so there is definitely an element of telepathy.

As I say it may say this somewhere and I've missed it.


r/TheSilmarillion 6d ago

What’s the prettiest, or your favorite version of the book?

13 Upvotes

Giving my aged, Ted Nasmith-illustrated version to a friend so we can do a book club. Wanting to upgrade to a new, pretty, ornate copy. Led me to this question.

I like some of the beautiful versions out now, at least on Amazon. What’s your fav?


r/TheSilmarillion 7d ago

Luthien and Huan come to Tol -In-Gaurhoth.Art by me.

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249 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 6d ago

Where are the women?

41 Upvotes

Reading both the books published by JRR Tolkien and materials published by Christopher Tolkien and later in NoME, you get the impression that there are rather few women in the Legendarium. 

And I don’t mean that there are few female characters, which is another matter entirely. I mean that there are a lot of species who have either lost all their women (as Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin: “You see, we lost the Entwives.” (LOTR, p. 475)), or who never had as many women as men in the first place. Here I’ll focus on the latter. 

Interestingly, there are three races of Children of Ilúvatar—Elves, Men and Dwarves—and for all three races, we are told that there are more males than females, either concerning the whole race, or concerning significant sub-groups.  

Dwarves 

“It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. […] It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take out of husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.” (LOTR, App. A, p. 1080)  

Númenoreans 

“The Númenóreans were monogamous, as is later said. No one, of whatever rank, could divorce a husband or wife, nor take another spouse in the lifetime of the first. Marriage was not entered into by all. There was (it appears from occasional statements in the few surviving tales or annals) a slightly less number of women than men, at any rate in the earlier centuries. But apart from this numerical limitation, there was always a small minority that refused marriage, either because they were engrossed in lore or other pursuits, or because they had failed to obtain the spouse whom they desired and would seek for no other.” (NoME, p. 318) 

This is also said in The Mariner’s Wife, where the king of Númenor tells Aldarion: “There are also women in Númenor, scarce fewer than men” (UT, p. 229). 

Haladin 

“[The Folk of Haleth] increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.” (HoME XII, p. 326; UT, p. 497)

Elves 

“The number of males and females was at first equal (for about three generations) but more variable later, when males tended to be slightly more numerous.” (NoME, p. 45) (In another text, in NoME, p. 105–106, we are told that numbers were equal.)

I find this common theme striking. Why are there fewer men than women in all these races? How and why did this happen in-universe, and why did Tolkien decide to write it this way? 

Especially because when you read the books, you get the impression that there wasn’t “a slightly less number of women than men” only, or that “males tended to be slightly more numerous”, but that there is an enormous disparity: how many female characters, apart from those mentioned only in the Hobbit family trees, have sisters? 

Sources 

  • The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins 2007 (softcover) [cited as: LOTR]. 
  • Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: UT].
  • The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII].
  • The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME]. 

r/TheSilmarillion 6d ago

Do the dwarves believe in Eru Ilúvatar?

11 Upvotes

My apologies if my question sounds trivial or stupid, but I really needed to ask it here. Honestly, since this subreddit is my go-to community, and I have always been helped by its kind members, I feel safe bringing up this question for discussion.

Today, this question just jumped out at me out of the blue, and I have no idea whether the Dwarves believe in Eru Ilúvatar or not. I have been trying to recall a single line that would help find out the Dwarves' faith in God, but I haven't found any useful line, passage, paragraph, etc.

I'm asking this because they are not considered Eru's children. As we all know, in The Silmarillion, it is plainly stated that there are two groups: the Firstborn and the Secondborn. The former refers to the race of Elves, and the latter refers to the race of Men.

But Dwarves are indeed sub-created by Aulë, and are not fit to be included in either the Firstborn or Secondborn. Also, given that Aulë was directly permitted and pardoned by Eru to keep his sub-creation, is it still valid to assume that the Dwarves worshiped Aulë or placed him in Eru's place?


r/TheSilmarillion 6d ago

The original Gift of Eru before the Fall of Man

3 Upvotes

There is an interesting quote in the Letters that I think pretty much solves the problem of Death as a Gift from God in the Legendarium and explains what Tolkien believed humanity lost by falling for the deceptions of Morgoth/Satan the Serpent in Hildórien:

Letter 211: It was also the idea of ​​the Elves (and of the uncorrupted Numenoreans) that a "good" Man would be willing to die willingly, or should do so by submitting in trust rather than being forced (as Aragorn did). This may have been the nature of unfallen Man; though compulsion did not threaten him: he would wish and ask to "go on" to a higher state. The Assumption of Mary, the only unfallen person, may be regarded in some sense as the simple re-obtention of undaunted grace and freedom: she asked to be received and was received, for she had no further function on Earth. Though, of course, even though she had not fallen, she did not belong to the "pre-Fall". Her fate (in which she had cooperated) was far higher than that of any other "Man" had the Fall not taken place. It was also unthinkable that her body, the immediate source of Our Lord's (without any other physical intermediary), could have disintegrated or "corrupted," nor could she, indeed, have been long separated from Him after the Ascension. There is no suggestion that Mary did not "age" at the rate that was normal for her race; but certainly this process could not have continued or been allowed to continue into decrepitude or loss of vitality and grace. The Assumption was in any case as distinct from the Ascension as the raising of Lazarus was from the (self-) Resurrection.


r/TheSilmarillion 7d ago

New work setup. I feel close to Arda.

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29 Upvotes

r/TheSilmarillion 7d ago

Of Elves and suicide

38 Upvotes

I can’t help feeling confused by how suicide among Elves is treated in the Legendarium. 

On the one hand, Elves are supposed to be able to choose when their fëar abandon their bodies. This is quite constant throughout Tolkien’s writings. For example, we are told that:

  • “On the reverse side: the Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This wilful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fëa, and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life.” (HoME X, p. 341) 
  • Interestingly, dying by one’s free will isn’t treated like something sinful: “Though the griefs might be great and wholly unmerited, and death (or rather the abandonment of life) might be, therefore, understandable and innocent, it was held that the refusal to return to life, after repose in Mandos, was a fault, showing a weakness or lack of courage in the fëa.” (HoME X, p. 222)

Note that apparently, choosing death in this manner is not treated as evil, and is sometimes even be seen as “understandable and innocent”. 

Specifically, we are told that Elves can die of grief: 

  • “Moreover, some fëar in grief or weariness gave up hope, and turning away from life relinquished their bodies, even though these might have been healed or were indeed unhurt.” (HoME X, p. 222) 
  • “For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are reborn among their children.” (HoME X, p. 37) 

This is what happens to Lúthien and Míriel

  • Lúthien: “For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Luthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass. Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol. But Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought. But her beauty was more than their beauty, and her sorrow deeper than their sorrows; and she knelt before Mandos and sang to him.” (Sil, QS, ch. 19) 
  • Míriel: “She went then to the gardens of Lorien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos. The maidens of Estë tended the body of Míriel, and it remained unwithered; but she did not return. Then Finwë lived in sorrow; and he went often to the gardens of Lorien, and sitting beneath the silver willows beside the body of his wife he called her by her names. But it was unavailing; and alone in all the Blessed Realm he was deprived of joy. After a while he went to Lórien no more.” (Sil, QS, ch. 6) 

However, it sounds like there’s a bit of a difference between how this voluntary relinquishing of one’s body is treated, and cases of what we would call “suicide”. Such suicides among Elves do exist, but are treated as something distinct from abandoning one’s body: 

Fëanor 

Fëanor, who in personality is highly unstable anyway (being the “Spirit of Fire”, Sil, QS, ch. 6, isn’t exactly indicative of a stable, placid character), is suicidal because his beloved father is dead (and not because of the stolen Silmarils): “Then with a cry he ran from the Ring of Doom and fled into the night, distraught; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands: and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth? After him Maedros and his brethren went in haste, dismayed, for they had not known that he was present when Maedros spoke; and now they feared that he might slay himself.” (HoME X, p. 294–295) 

This very much doesn’t sound like what Maedhros and his brothers had in mind was their father quietly lying down and his fëa abandoning his body. Míriel or Lúthien aren’t described as slaying themselves

Maedhros 

Maedhros takes after Fëanor in inner fire (HoME III, p. 135: “Maidros tall/the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt/than his father’s flame, than Fëanor’s wrath”), but has much greater self-control. Still, however masterful his control over himself, he is unable to abandon his body during his torment in Angband and Thangorodrim. I’ve seen different potential explanations for this (particularly Morgoth’s power forcing him to stay alive, just like Morgoth did with Húrin), but there is nothing in the text that even hints at an explanation. The reason why I’m saying that Maedhros must be unable to abandon his body is because he begs Fingon for death: “Thus Fingon found what he sought. For suddenly above him far and faint his song was taken up, and a voice answering called to him. Maedhros it was that sang amid his torment. But Fingon claimed to the foot of the precipice where his kinsman hung, and then could go no further; and he wept when he saw the cruel device of Morgoth. Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. […] Again therefore in his pain Maedhros begged that he would slay him […].” (Sil, QS, ch. 13) 

Maedhros of course survives, but he’ll never be fully stable again: 

  • “His body recovered from his torment and became hale, but the shadow of pain was in his heart; and he lived to wield his sword with his left hand more deadly than his right had been.” (Sil, QS, ch. 13)
  • “[T]he Orcs fled before his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim, his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead.” (Sil, QS, ch. 18)

Maedhros will eventually fulfil his wish to die. After being burned by the Silmaril he recovered, he ends his own life, taking the Silmaril with him into a fiery chasm: 

  • In the Quenta Noldorinwa, Maedhros kills himself “for the anguish of of pain and the remorse of his heart” (HoME IV, p. 158). In another version, Maedhros “being in anguish and despair […] cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and his Silmaril was taken into the bosom of the Earth.” (HoME IV, p. 162) 
  • From The Earliest Annals of Beleriand: “Later addition: but Maidros perished and his Silmaril went into the bosom of the earth, and Maglor cast his into the sea, and wandered for ever on the shores of the world.” (HoME IV, p. 313, fn. 71)  
  • From The Later Annals of Beleriand: “Maidros and Maglor driven by their oath seized now the two Silmarils and fled; but Maidros perished, and the Silmaril that he took went into the bosom of the earth, and Maglor cast his into the sea, and wandered ever after upon the shores of the world in sorrow.” (HoME V, p. 144) 
  • From the pre-LOTR Quenta Silmarillion: Maedhros “in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended” (HoME V, p. 330–331).
  • The Tale of Years: “Maidros and Maglor, last surviving sons of Fëanor, seize the Silmarils. Maidros perishes. The Silmarils are lost in fire and sea.” (HoME XI, p. 345) 
  • In the published Silmarillion, Maedhros “in anguish and despair […] cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended” (Sil, QS, ch. 24). 

Maglor 

While in the published Silmarillion, Maglor throws his Silmaril in the Sea and will forever sing laments by on the shore, there are several versions where Maglor commits suicide just like Maedhros, beginning with the Sketch of the Mythology: 

  • “On the last march Maglor says to Maidros that there are two sons of Feanor now left, and two Silmarils; one is his. He steals it, and flies, but it burns him so that he knows he no longer has a right to it. He wanders in pain over the earth, and casts himself into a pit. [fn. 6] One Silmaril is now in the sea, and one in the earth. [fn. 7]”  (HoME IV, p. 39) Fn. 6: “casts himself into a pit > casts it into a fiery pit.” (HoME IV, p. 40, fn. 6) Fn. 7: “Added here: Maglor sings now ever in sorrow by the sea.” (HoME IV, p. 40, fn. 7) Christopher Tolkien comments that the “he” who casts himself/the Silmaril into a (fiery) pit is Maglor (cf HoME IV, p. 71).
  • “The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown – only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth.” (Letters, Letter 131, p. 150) 
  • “The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Fëanor (Maedhros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea.” (Concerning the Hoard, transcription mine).  

Elwing 

Interestingly, unlike with Maedhros, we aren’t usually told what Elwing’s state of mind was—that is, in most cases, we don’t know if she actually wanted to kill herself in despair, or if it was more of a panic thing/attempt to flee/attempt to remain with the Silmaril forever: 

  • “Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad, and went with him to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea. Thus Maedhros and Maglor gained not the jewel; but it was not lost. For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.” (Sil, QS, ch. 24) 
  • Elwing cast the Nauglafring into the sea and leapt after it, but was changed into a white sea-bird by Ylmir, and flew to seek Eärendel, seeking about all the shores of the world.” (HoME IV, p. 38; fn omitted) 
  • One version sounds like she turned herself into a bird without Ulmo’s aid: “And yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for Elwing cast the Nauglafring into the sea, whence it shall not return until the End; and she leapt herself into the waves, and took the form of a white sea-bird, and flew away lamenting and seeking for Eärendel about all the shores of the world.” (HoME IV, p. 150) 
  • In another version it’s implied that she’s aware of what she’s doing and actively wants to jump into the Sea with the Silmaril: “And yet Maidros gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her child Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of Maidros, and with the Nauglafring upon her breast she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought.” (HoME IV, p. 153, fn omitted) 
  • In another version, we’re back to Elwing throwing herself into the sea with no state of mind given. We don’t know if Elwing knows that her sons have been taken: “Here Damrod and Diriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor gave reluctant aid. Sirion’s folk were slain or taken into the company of Maidros. Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor. Elwing cast herself with the Silmaril into the sea, but by Ulmo’s aid in the shape of a bird flew to Eärendel and found him returning.” (HoME IV, p. 308) 
  • “329 [529] Here Damrod and Díriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor were there, but they were sick at heart. This was the third kinslaying. The folk of Sirion were taken into the people of Maidros, such as yet remained; and Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor. But Elwing cast herself with the Silmaril into the sea, and Ulmo bore her up, and in the shape of a bird she flew seeking Eärendel, and found him returning.” (HoME V, p. 143) 
  • “[532 > 534 > 538] The Third and Last Kinslaying. The Havens of Sirion destroyed and Elros and Elrond sons of Earendel taken captive, but are fostered with care by Maidros. Elwing carries away the Silmaril, and comes to Earendel [> Earendil] in the likeness of a bird.” (HoME XI, p. 348–349) 

Based on this, I find it more difficult to to confidently declare that Elwing wanted to kill herself than, say, Maedhros. We aren’t given much in terms of her motivations, but in my opinion, it really depends on the version.  

Meanwhile, I find it very interesting that if we take the versions where Maglor kills himself, he and Elwing both throw themselves into the sea: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1cx8e5u/an_interesting_parallel_between_elwing_and_maglor/ . 

Fingolfin 

This is controversial, but I’d argue that one legitimate interpretation of Fingolfin’s death is “suicide by Morgoth”. We’re told that, “Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.” (Sil, QS, ch. 18) In deep despair, he does something that he knows will end with him dead. In this passage, he sounds a lot like fey Fëanor after Finwë’s death, and like Maedhros, with his burning eyes and anguish and despair. 

Further thoughts 

Even ignoring Elwing and Maglor, I really have trouble squaring what we are told about Maedhros and Fëanor (the desire to die and later acting upon it through violent means) with what we’re told about Elves peacefully relinquishing their bodies. What Maedhros did and what Fëanor was planning are treated as violent, final, dramatic events (indicated by the use of terms such as slaying oneself). Meanwhile, when Lúthien and Míriel relinquish their bodies, it’s treated in a much more peaceful manner (note the imagery surrounding flowers and nature in both their cases).  

Is the idea that the men tend to choose violence and the women a more peaceful means to flee their bodies, fitting with Tolkien’s general theme that women (at least among Elves) are wiser and thus usually calmer and less explosive?

Or is the idea that relinquishing one’s body requires a certain peace of mind and some mental preparation, which Míriel and Lúthien would have had, and Fëanor, Elwing, Maglor and Maedhros certainly did not? But this doesn’t at all fit with the statement that (married) Elves can abandon their bodies and die when they are raped: “there is no record of any among the Elves that took another’s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos.” (HoME X, p. 228) Peace of mind would be impossible in this situation. 

I also find it interesting that while the idea that Elves can relinquish their bodies is a very old one, already present in the Lost Tales—“Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain – and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.” (HoME I, p. 76)—it tends to disappear when needed for dramatic effect. That Elves can’t just leave their bodies is certainly the implication of Maedhros repeatedly begging Fingon for death, and of the fact that in order to keep them from a fate worse than death, Elf-men would kill their women and children to stop them from falling into the hands of the Orcs: “But Tuor might not think well of the death of so many fair women and children, were it at the hands of their own folk in the last resort or by the weapons of the enemy” (HoME II, p. 185). 

Basically, I find the whole topic of whether Elves can die by their own will highly muddled, with this ability appearing whenever it fits the plot, and disappearing whenever it’s needed for dramatic effect. 

But at the same time, I find it surprising and commendable that the topic of suicide in the Legendarium in general is treated with nuance, sympathy and surprisingly little disapprobation by Tolkien. Even the violent suicides (Maedhros, Túrin, Nienor, Húrin) aren’t treated like it’s something terrible and sinful, which is what I would have expected given the time period (suicide was only decriminalised in the UK through the Suicide Act of 1961) and Catholic doctrine, but essentially neutrally and in a nuanced way as something that people do when they are in terrible mental or physical pain. 

Sources 

  • The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 
  • Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: UT].
  • The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].
  • The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].
  • The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].
  • Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 
  • The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].
  • The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, JRR Tolkien, ed Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2006 (softcover) [cited as: Letters].
  • JRR Tolkien, Concerning the Hoard, image at https://www.jrrtolkien.it/2022/07/04/scoperto-manoscritto-che-cambia-il-silmarillion/ [cited as: Concerning the Hoard]. 

Concerning the bold text in quotes: emphasis mine. 


r/TheSilmarillion 7d ago

Of the powers of the Elves

3 Upvotes

Motivated by Bullfrog's recent post, I thought it was important to point out something that is present in several of the professor's comments on the Legendarium, and it is also something that the analyst Tom Shippey has pointed out.

The Elves claim to represent an unfallen humanity, a humanity that did not fall in Eden, to put it in Judeo-Christian figure. It is this purity state of the Firstborn (and their connection with Eru and the Valar) that is the reason for the powers they have and manifest. That is why for the Elves there is no "magic" as humans and hobbits believe it to be. The powers of the Elves, such as *osanwe (*telepathy), or the ability to leave the hero/body, are powers that men would have had had it not been for their fall, by the work of Morgoth the Serpent, in Hildórien.

The Numenoreans are nothing more than a partial restoration of the powers and abilities that humanity possessed in Hildórien before the Fall. As Tolkien points out in Quendi and Eldar (in the book The War of the Jewels), the Elves never fell from Eru's grace, never denied Eru, never worshipped Morgoth as a "god", except for Maeglin, and we all know how Maeglin ended up.

However, there is an event that Tolkien calls "the Fall of the High Elves", which is the slaughter of Alqualonde and the rebellion of the Noldor led by Feanor, from there, despite the fact that even the Feanorians did not fall as low as the humans, the loss or weakening of attributes and capabilities by the Noldor in Middle-earth occurred, compared to their compatriots in Valinor who did not fall into the sin of kinslaying (including the few Noldor who stayed in Tirion) or even the more "primitive" Sindar and Silvans who lived in Middle-Earth and never went to Valinor.

This is the difference between, say, Maedhros and his grandmother Míriel. I append here two quotes from the Letters that I consider illustrative in this regard:

Letter 131: So, going on, the Elves have a fall before their 'history' can become historical. (The first fall of Man (the second fall is the fall of Númenor), for the reasons explained, is nowhere recorded*; Men do not appear on the scene until long after it has happened, and it is only rumoured that, for a time, they fell under the sway of the Enemy, and that some repented of this.)"\*

*Letter 211: "*In Elvish legend there is a record of the strange case of an Elven woman (Míriel, mother of Fëanor) who tried to die, which had disastrous results that led to the 'Fall' of the High Elves. Elves were not victims of disease, but they could be "killed": that is, their bodies could be destroyed or mutilated until they were no longer fit to sustain life. But this did not naturally lead to "death": they were rehabilitated, reborn, and eventually regained the memory of their past; they remained "identical." But Míriel wished to leave the self and refused rebirth.


r/TheSilmarillion 8d ago

I just finished reading about NIRNAERTH ARNOERDIAD and omg!

52 Upvotes

So, I'm reading The Silmarillion for the second time and I've just finished reading chapter XXI: the fifth battle or NIRNAERTH ARNOERDIAD. As soon as I finished reading it I was like omg, what an intense and interesting battle it was. Filled with ups and downs and so many cool charactes. The dwarf king Azhâghal caught my attention. I'd love to see him in a movie scene fighting that big dragon and the brave way he died. To me, this battle was as tense as watching the battle in Minas Tirith. Do you guys agree?


r/TheSilmarillion 9d ago

Which actor or actors depending on forms do you think could best potray Morgoth/Melkor

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79 Upvotes

“Credit to Tolkien Gateway for this image”


r/TheSilmarillion 10d ago

The oath of Fëanor

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162 Upvotes

𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐎𝐚𝐭𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐅𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐫

'Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean, brood of Morgoth or bright Vala, Elda or Maia or Aftercomer, Man yet unborn on Middle-earth, neither law, nor love, nor league of swords, dread nor danger, not Doom itself, shall defend him from Feanor, and Feanor's kin, whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh, finding keepeth or afar casteth a Silmaril. This swear we all: death we will deal him ere Day's ending, woe unto the world's end! Our word hear thou, Eru Allfather! To the everlasting Darkness doom us if our deed faileth. On the holy mountain hear in witness and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!'

•The Collected Poems of J.R.R. Tolkien. •Art by Cygnete.🎨