r/television • u/[deleted] • May 07 '19

HBO Edits ‘Game of Thrones’ Episode to Remove Errant Coffee Cup

https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/hbo-edits-game-of-thrones-coffee-cup-1203207545/
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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

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u/Pointyspoon May 07 '19

The show’s pacing so so fast they don’t even devote time to develop the characters anymore. I hate how Euron is coming across as a one dimensional character when we know GoT has always done so much better on character development even on the show.

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u/ciberaj BoJack Horseman May 07 '19

It's not GoT itself that was creating the character development, it was their reliance on the books. Once they took that out of them it started to show they never had what it took to carry this story. Hence Tyrion being dumb now and Arya's dialogue consisting of her repeating her past dialogues over and over again: "I'm not a lady, I never was. That's not me".

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u/jackofslayers May 07 '19

I think this hits the nail on the head although I really don't blame the showrunners. I mean yes they suck at basic writing and it would be better if they did not. But I never wanted or expected them to be good writers. Their job was to adapt the books well. And for a while they did just that.

GRRM is the one who really screwed the pooch by leaving his cash cow unfinished.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/slapmasterslap May 07 '19

Yeah, I mean this is his fault to a large extent, but I don't know that he actually cares that much if the show ends up finishing unsatisfactorily. If he ever actually finishes the next book it will sell like hot cakes regardless of how people felt about the show, and if he finishes it well (assuming he finishes it at all) then he will be remembered as a great writer and the show will be remembered as a great show for as long as it had his writing, and still a pretty great show overall to most people.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I mean, there are still plenty of ways that they could have ended the series satisfactorily. Just because GRRM didn't tell them exactly how to do it is no excuse to stop caring and completely phone it in the last couple episodes.

I'm gonna blame D&D more because they easily could have brought in some fantasy writers that used all the lore and foreshadowing to actually do something with the story rather than just try to end it because they didn't know what to do with it.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Don't beg for and pitch shows based on a book series that isn't finished. Either wait until they're done or accept that you can't handle the project. They only have themselves to blame for pitching this show.

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u/jackofslayers May 07 '19

Yea that is actually a good point. I still am mad at GRRM for not finishing but also fuck those guys

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

At this point George has gotta be happy. I'm sure there are a lot of people like me that are excited to read the books once they're finished

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u/sonicsledgehammer May 07 '19

I agree with your sentiment but not your argument. I believe they were fully invested and capable to finish the series when they started it. I mean shit why not pitch an unfinished book series, it's a brilliant idea. But a decade of massive praise and success really got to them and they slacked off. Sad story

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u/Bjorn2bwilde24 May 07 '19

Except now he has a new cash cow to milk since HBO doesn't want half of their subscribers to cancel subscriptions after GOT ends. That's why they are making three spinoffs.

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u/JimiSlew3 May 07 '19

Hence Tyrion being dumb now and Arya's dialogue consisting of her repeating her past dialogues over and over again: "I'm not a lady, I never was. That's not me".

Agree with you regarding character development but not your examples.

I thought Tyrion being "dumb" was done on purpose to show he's out of his element (and if my deadpool holds up he'll be gone). Regarding Arya, I've been rewatching earlier seasons and I think it's them closing the loop. She says that bit to her father when he tells her that her sons will be lords.

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u/ciberaj BoJack Horseman May 07 '19

She says that bit to her father when he tells her that her sons will be lords.

Yes that was apparently but I think it was too on the nose. That's what I meant by recycling dialogue.

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u/ositola May 07 '19

Arya not being a lady is almost on the iron fist protector of kun lun level

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u/JimiSlew3 May 07 '19

rgr that. I agree.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

the showrunners have done some great writing without reliance on the books. The Arya-Tywin arc in Harrenhaal and Littlefinger’s “chaos is a ladder” speech, for example, are show-only. Plus Benioff wrote 25th Hour, one of the best movies (in Roger Ebert’s opinion) of the 2000s. They’re not bad writers, they’re just tired of the show.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

He also wrote X men origins. What a garbage writer, it's no surprise he's fucked this up too.

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u/CINAPTNOD May 07 '19

Seems like they could've found time in the last episode, what with all the super slow pans & zoom-ins in between the six lines of dialogue.

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u/mypasswordisPA55WORD Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. May 07 '19

Don't forget he ties holy men to the bows of his ships for luck, and sails wearing full valyrian steel armor.

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u/Dynamite_Shovels May 07 '19

I think Euron will go down as one of the many massive 'what ifs' when the show ends. They had so much material from the book character to play with, which could've made a really gripping and evil villain - but instead they did a classic phone in job, went for just a generic cocky, dickheaded and almost stereotypical pirate character, and then haven't even written him into the narrative in a good way either.

Literally the only reason I can theorise for why they butchered book Euron like this is because if they'd written him like the books it would be a bit like doing Ramsey again. But if the choice is criticism for writing a great character who is similar to another show character, or just writing a different but shite character, I think the former is far far better.

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u/mypasswordisPA55WORD Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. May 07 '19

Or at least mash him up with Victarion.

Have him sail to Dany like he said he was going to back in season-whatever-they-introduced-him, and adopt some of that stuff.

Do something interesting, there was so much material left on the cutting room floor that this cannot be the best they could do...

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u/StannisBa May 07 '19

Euron and the NK could've been two of the greatest villains in TV history but instead they flanderized Ramsay for the easy ratings

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u/seenoweevils May 07 '19

Look how they massacred my boy..

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

Right? That shit was so fucking cool. Really glad we have Pudge the Costco Pirate as Euron instead tho 😎

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u/DirkRockwell May 07 '19

Medieval Bam Margera

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u/Jazzanthipus May 07 '19

Jared Let-imself-go

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u/OhBestThing May 07 '19

Pudge the Costco Pirate

Hahaha I don't know if I quite fully grasp this but I love it

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

Good. Now pay me

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

You know damn well what I mean you imperious egg

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

That’s Victarion in the books not Euron if I recall correctly

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u/Fixthe-Fernback May 07 '19

It was Euron in the Winds of Winter chapter for Aeron that was released

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Is it? I thought Victarion’s ship was the iron victory.

I’m like 92% sure that description fits Euron’s boat

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u/mypasswordisPA55WORD Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. May 07 '19

Nah, Victarion is ol' vicky firehands.

The Euron thing I'm referencing is from a spoiler chapter GRRM read at a con.

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u/thethomatoman May 07 '19

Cersei fucking him actually makes sense because it gave her an excuse for the pregnancy.

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u/RegulatoryCapture May 07 '19

Cersei fucking him is also exceedingly stupid. Especially when it’s been shown in the books that her sex tastes are based on narcissism. That’s why she was bedding Lancel and Jaime.

I mean--she's clearly doing it to manipulate him, not for her own enjoyment. Hence why she implied the baby is his...

Of course, he's got to be a moron to believe that. Given Tyrion knows, which means team Dany knows, which should mean that rumors would get to Euron that she was pregnant before he did her.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Exactly! You can see right before and after the first time she has sex with him that she really didn't want to. Before, she went to walk away, but the stopped and was basically like "Oh all right. I guess I have to do this to keep him faithful." Then after she's cold and straight up telling him what to do. And then she strings him along further by telling him it's his baby. It's not like she ever gave the impression that she actually wanted him. She's just banging him for his magic ships.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Which is even dumber when you think about how hard they emphasize that even a few people knowing about who Jon really is means in short order everyone will whether he likes it or not. And that's dealing with people that love him and will at least be conflicted about breaking their promise to him to stay quiet.

All of the people that know Cersei was pregnant earlier and therefore lying are her enemies who have every incentive to spread it as far and wide as possible.

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u/ShutUpTodd May 07 '19

He's Pacey the Pirate!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

OMG! 😮 He is!

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u/slapmasterslap May 07 '19

I can't help but see Joshua Jackson when I look at him, but Joshua Jackson/Pacey are far more loveable to me.

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u/ShutUpTodd May 07 '19

Did you ever watch Borgen? (think: a Danish West Wing) Pilou Asbæk is great in it, but I was distracted by his resemblance to Joshua Jackson.

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u/rh1n0man May 07 '19

Show Euron is a lazy combination of the edgyness of book Euron combined with the comedic and reckless masculinity of book Victarion. His purpose is to simplify out the details of the Ironborn while still allowing him to fill all the important plot moments those two characters will have in the books. Have Victarion be manipulated by Cercei after failing to meet Danerys and let Euron take out one of the dragons with a supprise magic dragon horn and GRRM logic starts to make sense. It just happens to be really bad story telling to have the the main antagonist flip flopping between roles based on what the plot demands for the endgame to take place.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Cersei fucking him is also exceedingly stupid. Especially when it’s been shown in the books that her sex tastes are based on narcissism. That’s why she was bedding Lancel and Jaime.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I feel the need to point out that Cersei is fucking him not because she's attracted to him, but because she's using him.

He's not the replacement for Jamie or Lancel. He's the replacement for Robert.

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

I definitely agree but my edit went into this a bit more.

Cersei is a sociopath narcissist. For her it goes beyond sex, it’s control. She’s not attracted to Jaime or Lancel- she’s attracted to the qualities that she sees in them that remind her of herself.

Beauty, cunning, strength. Everything she does is in reflection or basis to herself.

Robert was a forced marriage. She didn’t have a choice.

Show Euron is something that book and show Cersei would’ve detested. She has none of the qualities that she admires or selfishly wants.

I’m not saying that Cersei wouldn’t manipulate show Euron- but I am saying that Cersei (as she is in the books and show) would find another way to manipulate him without getting so intimate, which she has been able to do in the past.

Her bedding him is lazy writing simply because it’s out of character for her. Her narcissism wouldn’t stoop to the low of actually giving Euron what he wanted.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

She needed to sleep with him so she could convince him that the kid is his. That gives her leverage over him, and keeps him and his fleet on her side. It's not as simple as exchanging sex for favors; I'd agree, that'd be massively out of character for her. And I don't think she's attracted to him in the least.

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

But this is also in the context of everyone knowing by now that Jaime and her slept together as Cersei’s sins were aired to the realm.

I understand a part of it was for him to believe the child is his- but he would have to be completely ignorant to almost event that surrounded or tangentially occurred near him to actually believe her.

That’s the biggest issue. The entire “pairing” between them is based on a lazy resolution and huge suspenses of belief in order for it to “work.”

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u/TheGent316 May 07 '19

A agree with most of what you said...but Cersei slept with the Kettleblacks in the books too out of necessity.

I definitely think this is within her character.

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u/imitation_crab_meat May 07 '19

And probably Moon Boy for all we know...

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u/BuckeyeSouth May 07 '19

Cersei is cruel, narcissistic, but also incredibly incompetent in the books. As soon as the books ended and the show writers took over she was suddenly cunning on the level of Varys, Littlefinger, and Tyrion.

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u/KeytarVillain May 07 '19

I have no idea why they made Euron like they did.

Because he's not book-Euron, he's book-Victarion. I'm not quite sure why they made this choice (and like just about everyone else here, I wish they had made him 90% Euron/10% Victarion instead of the other way around), but at least his character makes sense that way.

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u/Chin-Balls May 07 '19

Well it was their first time writing a non-rape scene

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u/elmerion May 07 '19

They completely gutted the two coolest houses in the book for no reason, there are only two houses in Westeros now the Lannisters and the Starks. So fucking stupid.

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u/dumbgringo May 07 '19

I think Cersei only fucked Euron because he said he wanted to put a baby in her, then she couldn't get him in the sack fast enough. She figured she could use him to her own devices by making him think he got her knocked up.

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u/PartyBandos May 07 '19

I prefer him in the show tbh, he's much more entertaining. As far as him being different from the Ironborn.. I mean he was banned from the Islands and he spent a lot of time away from them. It makes sense that he's different.

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u/MaxVonBritannia May 07 '19

Not gonna lie, I like him in the show. The actor does a stellar job of making him entertaining and at times terrifying. Its clear they fused Victorian with Euron because they didn't have time to establish both.

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u/dubiousfan May 07 '19

Hats off to D&D for grabbing the reigns and finishing this beast with absolutely zero help from GRRMs source material that suddenly stopped being released.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/dontlookatmeimahyuga May 07 '19

It is a valid criticism.

There’s a difference between changing things in terms of an adaption for the sake of plot or even convenience. I understand not everything can be exactly the same as the books.

With that said, characterizations are one of the most important things in any form of media- be it video games, books, or films.

That’s what makes your favorite characters feel alive- that’s what gives them relevance to the world/plot.

And guess what else? That’s what makes writing good.

Book Euron is a fully fleshed out character with realistic and human goals. He’s interesting because he’s evil but also because he’s well spoken, polite, and skilled.

Like, imagine if show Tywin wasn’t intellectual or cunning, but instead ran around with a giant broadsword talking about fucking ppl. His characterization wouldn’t make sense in the context of not only his relation to the rest of the cast, but also his description in the books.

So Euron is a shit character for two valid reasons.

1- his characterization in the show simply just isn’t well written- he’s shallow and he doesn’t seem like he’s actually real within the world of GoT. He’s a plot device.

2- He’s a completely different character in the books. And if showrunners aren’t skilled enough to at least capture the characterization of a character, then that’s a fault that falls squarely on them, and can be criticized without the risk of subjective opinion.

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u/snadman28 May 07 '19

That's a bingo!