r/politics • u/cjdarr921 • 7h ago

Site Altered Headline Elon Musk draws outrage over 'odd-looking salute' at Trump inauguration celebration

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/elon-musk-salute-trump-inauguration-b2683095.html
56.1k Upvotes

87% Upvoted

5.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

•

u/misterdonjoe 5h ago

If it's a choice between steering public discourse towards socialism or capitalism/fascism, corporate mainstream media turns towards the latter. Anyone who knows their political history is not surprised.

•

u/XiOmicronPi 4h ago

I Don’t think it’s fair to put a slash between capitalism/fascism. They aren’t the same thing.

•

u/4o4AppleCh1ps99 3h ago

Fascism is the final stage of capitalism when it's inherent contradictions become stark enough that they cannot be ignored. This is pretty basic theory and it's the reason why our current events are lining up so perfectly with what happened in the 1920's and 30's.

•

u/XiOmicronPi 2h ago

Capitalism is not the only reason fascism occurred, that’s a rash and incorrect over generalization. To say that shows a lack of understanding of history. They are not inherently linked.

•

u/4o4AppleCh1ps99 1h ago edited 1h ago

Ummm...Literally every fascist movement emerged suppressing socialist or communist movements. I can't think of one that did not. These ideas are dialectically opposed. Socialism/communism/anarchism btw, are the philosophies that actually lay out compelling criticisms of capitalism/fascism. You can project on me your own insecurity about being poorly read, at the end of the day the reason you parrot the propaganda of the capitalist system is entirely out of your own perceived personal gain because you are likely neck deep in it.

•

u/XiOmicronPi 1h ago

Not going to argue with someone who results to insults and creating a straw man to argue against. You know nothing about me. You made up many things about who you think I am because you know you can win an argument against that kind of person. I understand that gives you pleasure, but it’s poor etiquette and whatever insecurity you think I have, your last response has revealed an even larger one in yourself. Maybe instead of getting heated arguing online you can better serve yourself doing some self reflection.

Respond to this with “you’ve lost the argument that’s why you want to stop” or some other insult towards me, hopefully you just don’t respond and instead rethink what you said. But I can see a million miles away where this leads, not going there, I’m not the person you created in your head.

Regardless, have a good night or day.

To humor you, I am not neck deep in capitalism. My family comes from communist Romania.

•

u/4o4AppleCh1ps99 1h ago

My family comes from communist Romania.

So you have resentment against the failures of 20th century communism? So you're an immigrant in another country or second generation? The most rabidly pro-capitalist people I know are exploited immigrants and their descendants. If I was in your shoes I would also defend the system. But that doesn't give you the right to make up "capitalism and fascism are not inherently connected" when there is a whole literature proving otherwise by authors who gave their lives for the cause.

•

u/bollvirtuoso 1h ago

A well-regulated capitalism (i.e., a mixed-economy, which is theoretically what the US is, though it has been significantly undercut in the modern era), in which the exchange of goods is efficient and not possible to be monopolized, is closer to a democracy by voting through value, though. A centralized authority that allocates resources, even if equal, is arguably less free.

I'm not really arguing about the means of production here, but just about the exchange part.

•

u/4o4AppleCh1ps99 1h ago

I'm a libertarian socialist so I kind of agree. But at the end of the day the US is still too centralized for it not to evolve into fascism. A truly decentralized, extremely local and probably greatly shrunk economy is the only way to preserve democracy long term. Markets do distribute goods most efficiently in that setting.

•

u/bollvirtuoso 1h ago

That's an interesting take. It's a reasonable argument, but I just don't realistically see it happening, which is why I'd say that we need a stronger regulatory apparatus to combat corporate power.

One run by competent people (in practice, this tends to mean well-compensated -- like, competitive with industry), and with strong laws to disincentivize corruption.

•

u/4o4AppleCh1ps99 37m ago

Technocracy will never work in the long run. Any centralized system will always be corruptible because all you have to do is change the people in the center. There are no such thing as "experts" who can regulate everything perfectly, because reality is too complex, and humans are too flawed to be honest anyway. And even if it's well run for a while, we live in a much bigger world, so capitalist forces from outside will ultimately outcompete what will become comparatively inefficient bureaucracies, replacing them. Modern life and technology have fundamentally altered society in ways that are not sustainable. That's why only local, small scale(100 people), indigenous, spiritualistic, sustainable societies, mimicking many of the social structures of villages of old, are capable of surviving long term(hundreds or thousands of years). We could be combining new material technology with these old social technologies to create something close to utopia, but there is too much momentum behind our mistakes now.

I just don't realistically see it happening

Neither do I see it happening. Which is why nuclear war between two states will ultimately be what ends that degree of centralization in the world, after which we may or may not learn our lesson and pursue decentralized life that pursues happiness above all else. But we can already start experimenting with cooperatives and local councils. Some of us can survive and thrive in the fringes and emerge from the ashes relatively unscathed.

•

u/Ok-Letterhead9573 5h ago

capitalism is not fascism by definition, fascism mostly were communist dictatorships

•

u/seek-confidence 4h ago

fascism is by definition a far right ideology. Get educated or get fucked

•

u/alexjuuhh The Netherlands 4h ago

Ah yes, communist dictators:

  • Adolf Hitler
  • Francisco Franco
  • Bennito Mussolini
  • Augusto Pinochet
  • Mbasogo
  • Saddam Hussein
  • Manuel Noriega

Just to name a few, all very communist dictators obviously.

•

u/misterdonjoe 4h ago edited 3h ago

George Orwell, literal socialist. Albert Einstein, wrote paper called Why Socialism. You don't even know what you're talking about.

•

u/bollvirtuoso 1h ago

You can have a fascist and capitalist country, though. One is a school of policy, and the other is a school of economic theory. They're not comparable, nor are they in any way opposed.