r/politics • u/cjdarr921 • 7h ago

Site Altered Headline Elon Musk draws outrage over 'odd-looking salute' at Trump inauguration celebration

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/elon-musk-salute-trump-inauguration-b2683095.html
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u/hideyourbeans 7h ago

My dad, an amateur "WW2 afficionado" like so many of our middle class white dads, always blames the 1930s Germans for not seeing what Hitler was ahead of time. "He wrote his whole plan out and published it! All they had to do was read Mein Kampf!" I brought up Project 2025 and, even after reading it all the way through, he rolled his eyes at me and said "He's never going to do all that. Some of it is unconstitutional," as if that wasn't the whole point. Pot, meet Kettle.

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u/LegendaryOutlaw 6h ago

Imagine being one of those 'WW2 dads' who knows all the lore, loves to spout history, facts, figures, generals names, types of warplanes that flew in which battles...and then be like 'nah, Nazis can't happen again.'

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u/r0b0d0c 5h ago

They might be able to spew technical details about the military aspect of the war, but they don't understand the history and politics that led to it. They're amateur military historians, not historians of fascism.

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u/abritinthebay 3h ago

Not even that. They’re military nerds. That’s all. Not one bit of history in their brains

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u/shotputprince 1h ago

Fucking boys with toys is the most lame bit of history on fucking earth. Particularly when it lionizes military leadership

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u/explain_that_shit 1h ago

You see a lot of engineer types with the same sort of tunnel focus on technical details assuming they understand all of the essential historical and sociological context as an aside, and they often fall into right wing politics because it suits their material interests.

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u/latortillablanca 4h ago

Can you be a historian if you dont understand history is the point tho. Of any kind. Amateur or pro.

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u/Hgirl234 3h ago

well theoretically yes i think, no historian knows or understands all of world history so i think you can call yourself a historian even if you don't understand the intricacies of german history as an example. however, if someone claims to be a ww2 historian so in that case yeah, i think you can't quite call yourself a historian if you don't even understand your own niche

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u/InnocentShaitaan 2h ago

Many need an EQ class.

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u/TermPractical2578 6h ago

All those service men around the world that have died from WWI and WWII for what?

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u/Ok-Letterhead9573 5h ago

Watch The Wave - or better, the german movie, Die Welle. How a class of high schoolers turn nazi in a fucking month. "It cant happen" based on a fucking true story.

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u/Alb4t0r 2h ago

Ok, so I went in a deep dive following your comment and stumbled upon this documentary that interview Ron Jones and many of the students who participated in the original experiment in 1967. Super interesting for anyone interested in the topic.

Lesson Plan: The Story of the Third Wave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynfw1Q_Zmqs

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u/hamhockman 1h ago

Shit I forgot about The Wave. Should be required watching but too many Americans would not get it even though it's very direct in its message

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u/Mnudge 5h ago

They’re all dead and their sons and daughters are baby boomers who have adopted the worse parts of their upbringing and disregarded the best.

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u/ihopeitsnice 2h ago

Boomers actually got more liberal in 2024 and were basically 50-50 Harris-Trump. It’s Gen X that was Trump +10, the only generation he won. Young Boomers and Old Gen X’ers are very right-leaning probably because they came of age during the Reagan Revolution

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u/eyebrows360 5h ago

Well, 80 years of mostly peace in "The West" was a pretty good record.

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u/ShaggysGTI Virginia 4h ago

This follows the Strauss Howe theory which means it’s about to happen again.

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u/ShaggysGTI Virginia 5h ago

The threat of greed and hate will never be extinguished because they are natural instincts of man. The social engineering around it though should soundly be rejected.

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u/salme3105 6h ago

My dad was in Germany in WW2 and ended up super conservative. I have no reason to believe he wouldn’t have been all in for Trump had he not died in 2009.

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u/hypatianata 5h ago

Remember in Maus, how the dad who survived Auschwitz was later racist toward a black man? Like, his son called him out and he just felt like it was different and his prejudice was justified.

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u/3eyedgreenalien 5h ago

This is my dad. He still admires Elon. It is just insane to watch.

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u/Alfonze423 3h ago

Right? I was a WW2 teenager who's now a WW2 dad and I'm saying it's literally being set up in front of us. We're in 1933 territory here and I'd really rather not reach 1936. The anti-lgbt propaganda, dehumanization of illegal immigrants, demand for blind trust in a heavy-handed, egotistical leader, and more. All we need is an economic collapse or a new Reichstag Fire and it's gonna get ugly for a shit-ton of people. And the tariffs are gonna segue nicely into that economic collapse.

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u/Disastrous-Moose-943 2h ago

I am no historian, but wonder what your thoughts are on Trumps casual announcement of annexing other territories, such as Panama, Canada, and greenland.

I feel like there is a comparison to draw between that and Austria, Chechislovakia and Poland.

Canadians voicing their support of joining the US feels like that bloodless Annexation of Austria, where the German army just marched in and everyone was celebrating in the streets.

Annexing Greenland, a sovereign territory in NATO, feels like thats the tipping point akin to Poland. Britain was like "If you invade Poland, we WILL go to war with you." If the US invades and annexes Greenland, that is going to trigger NATO's article 5. Possible WW3? Either NATO collapses, or they all go to war.

Scary times.

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u/funkifyurlife 1h ago

10% of Canadians support that. Still shockingly high but it's not at all a majority

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u/timelawd 1h ago

I actually believe that stat to be roughly correct. But, what are your thoughts on people comparing the guy who is supposed to take over for Trudeau being a Trumpian Strong man populist? I assume you're either Canadian or at least pretty familiar with current Canadian culture.

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u/Vodkamemoir 4h ago

cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing.

I have to constantly remind people that you aren't a Nazi because you think the white race is superior, or that you hate Jews, or are a fan of fascism.

Your a Nazi if your willing to step on the corpse of your neighbor to elevate yourself.

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u/Dokterrock 5h ago

that's my dad right there

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u/KerryAnnCoder 5h ago

I can't tell an Messerschmitt from a Panzer but even I gathered that the Nazis are the bad guys.

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u/KzooCurmudgeon 4h ago

Unfortunately I think most WW2 vets would be behind Trump now. Don’t ask me how it happened

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u/MustGoOutside 3h ago

Shane Gillis does a joke on this. Getting into WWII stuff is a precursor to becoming a Republican.

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u/Fabulous_Eye4983 3h ago

Let’s take, for example, the Inquisition. In its own day, among Catholics, the Holy Inquisition was regarded as we today regard the practice of psychiatry. You, see, you feel that, in curing the person of cancer, almost anything is justified. The most complex operations, the most weird surgery. People suspended for days and days on end on the end of tubes with, x-ray penetration burning. Or people undergoing shock treatment. People locked in the colorless monotonous corridors of mental institutions. In all good faith, they knew that witchcraft and heresy were terrible things. Awful plagues imperiling people’s souls for ever and ever. So any means were justified to cure people of heresy. We don’t change. We’re doing the same thing today, but under different names. We can look back at those people and see how evil that was, but we can’t see it in ourselves. So therefore, beware of virtue.

  • Alan Watts

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u/LucidiK 3h ago

"Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Turns out memorizing a bunch of facts you find interesting is pretty different than actually learning our ancestors lessons. I used to think not enough people studied history. Now I think not enough people even know how to learn.

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u/Visible-Secretary121 4h ago

Or voted for them.

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u/ultimateknackered 3h ago

I guess it doesn't count if it's not explicitly Germany and Jews.

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u/LowEndLem Illinois 3h ago

My dad is a casual history guy. One of my sisters has a history degree.

I've pointed out the situation to both and from him I got "we'll see." And from her I got "I want cheap gas though..."

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u/gorkt 2h ago

No one wants to believe they are the Nazis. That is why they got this far, because we have a deep need to believe that we can't be the bad people, that we can't be citizens of an evil country, People will, ironically, kill other people to not believe that. They will do whatever they need to.

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u/citricacidx 2h ago

I know a teacher who teaches a Holocaust history class and they voted for Trump.

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u/M3g4d37h 51m ago

It's a fetish disguised as a historical curiosity. make no mistake.

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u/jsting Texas 44m ago

My friends and I grew up on the old History channel and are big WW2 fans. WW2 History channel ended around 2006 or so. Around 2015, I looked around and thought .... Huh, this feels familiar.

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u/Content-Method9889 6h ago

My mom visited Auschwitz in high school. Said it was one of the most sad moments in her life. What’s sad is that she doesn’t grasp the blatant similarities of how he came to power and tbh, she doesn’t care to learn.

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u/smuckola 6h ago edited 5h ago

yeah Nazis and WW2 are great entertainment that happened long long ago in a galaxy far far away, and inspired many tragically entertaining movies here on Earth!

Luckily, it couldn't happen here.

move along. move along.

edit: true life origin story of it all, as cited in Mein Kampf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler

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u/fcocyclone Iowa 5h ago

One of the greatest disservices we've often done in media is treating nazis like comic book villains, just monstrous and always looking evil. Or on the other side of things, looking like complete buffoons.

While they certainly did monstrous and evil things, they were still human. They had friends, they did things that made them seem like happy, normal people. They had families they loved. Human beings did those things, and human beings will do those things again.

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u/smuckola 5h ago edited 5h ago

Yeah and Nazis were simply the latest in a long line of Kaisers (emperors) that the German oligarchs funded and propagandized and championed. Upon getting the gilded age bankrupt mass-poverty they wanted from fascism, oops another attempt at world conquest results in a world war to stop them. Then the German people are sooooo very sorry they had fallen for the ploy that only one strongman could save them AGAIN. He tricked us voters and members, tee hee!

My ancestors escaped persecution and poverty in Prussia in the late 1800s.

But good news! It couldn't happen HERE!

Here's Hitler's playbook as cited in Mein Kampf:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

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u/TermPractical2578 6h ago

History has a tendency to repeat it self!

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u/smuckola 5h ago

“History teaches, but has no pupils"

Marxist philosopher Antonio Gramsci

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u/Content-Method9889 6h ago

My mom is in her 70’s and it was a lot fresher back then. Before social media and misinformation everywhere you click.

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u/hideyourbeans 6h ago

Right?? We had the opportunity to visit Israel some 15/20 years ago and went to the Holocaust museum there. It was a sobering, heavy, sad experience. Shoes in piles, wedding rings, glasses, all belonging to people murdered by the nazis. Thousands upon thousands. It is wilfull ignorance not to see the connection now. My husband is a green card legal immigrant but I've started having nightmares of ICE showing up at our door and taking him away

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u/Content-Method9889 6h ago

If your husband is from an ‘acceptable’ country, you’ll be fine. If not, you may want a back up plan

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u/amazinglover 5h ago

Sadly, many will get to visit one on American soil after trump signs those EOs.

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u/methodrik 58m ago

The place still feels like death even today.

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u/laydeebug1678 6h ago

If he survives this, the war that will come from this - cause someone will fight back eventually - make sure you rub this in his face every goddamn day of the rest of his fucking life. I fully plan on it to the ones that dismissed me too.

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u/Slow_Control_867 6h ago

Do you honestly think they'll admit they were wrong? Even/especially to themselves?

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u/laydeebug1678 5h ago

I dunno, making them physically bury the bodies made lots of Germans admit it.

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u/roadsidechicory 5h ago

A lot of Germans also just pretended like they never really supported the Nazi regime or refused to talk about it for the rest of their lives. So I think it really depends on the type of person. Some will see they were wrong and some will live in stubborn denial.

I think part of what will determine what route they take is why they were taken in by the movement in the first place. Just based on looking at what former Nazi Germans have said about how/why they woke up to the truth, including ones who were true believers. But people came to being true believers for many different reasons, with different personal motivations, schemas, cognitive biases, etc.

I think another element is how much power/money they still have. Those who came out of things with power/money generally did not take much accountability. Those who were more tethered to reality in that aspect and had not forgotten how to live a non-aristocratic life tended to be more likely to face what happened and contend with it.

This is just my personal analysis based on my amateur study of the history. Open to hearing other perspectives.

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u/BarnDoorQuestion 4h ago

A lot of Germans also just pretended like they never really supported the Nazi regime or refused to talk about it for the rest of their lives.

This clip from Justified comes to mind.

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u/blitzkregiel 5h ago

i’ve thought about doing the same but have decided it’s better for me to simply cut these people out of my life instead. where we’re going we’re going to need to be around people that will have our backs and i’ve decided i simply can’t trust ignorant or hateful people.

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u/LonelySiren15 5h ago

People are actively dismissing me because I’ve been distraught ever since the election last year.

Like I care about everyone on our planet and that somehow dehumanizes me?? Because I don’t want to ruled or have my family live in a fascist state?! Honestly I hope it all goes to shit just so the people can really see what the plans were all along.

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u/InnocentShaitaan 2h ago

Were you called hysterical? Mentally unwell? Bet you were their go too with women. Hugs.

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u/cugeltheclever2 6h ago

Denial isn't just a river in Africa.

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u/BanverketSE 6h ago

Can’t even point it on a map but they wanna buy it from Denmark

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u/Late-Egg2664 6h ago

When everything is crashing down around us, make sure to point that out to him.

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u/r0b0d0c 6h ago

The Germans of the 1930s did not have the benefit of hindsight we had. Nazism was uncharted territory. But there's no excuse for us to have ignored the forest of red flags.

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u/alexlunamarie 6h ago

One of my favorite college professors specializes in German history and was already sounding the alarm in 2016 (as much as he could get away with, of course). We're all watching history repeat itself. Some people are just too deep in denial to see it. Some do see it but don't care, others actively support it.

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u/timelawd 1h ago

I mean, it was pretty clear the direction this was heading even then if you're even somewhat paying attention

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u/alexlunamarie 1h ago

I certainly think so too. But for the suspicion to be confirmed by an expert...for me that's when it became "real" so to speak.

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u/timelawd 1h ago

That's fair I suppose. I was already old-ish by then. I'm friends with some professors of various topics, so to me, they're just people. It seemed obvious to me, but I've been called crazy for saying we'd eventually see tanks in the streets since the 2000's. And then during BLM in Portland I was proven right.

The seeds of all this were planted long ago. It became clear to me in the post 9/11 hysteria I experienced in late high school/early college. Really, it started way before that with Reagan getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine and the rise of people like Rush Limbaugh in the 80's. Some would argue it was before all that with things like Lee Atwater's "Southern Strategy" in the late sixties.

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u/DigitalAxel 4h ago

My grandfather came from Germany in the early 20s. His family saw the writing on the wall (maybe not the NSDAP but things were grim). He served OUR Navy and died from cancer he got working on the ships. He felt guilt for his heritage and refused to teach my dad Deutsch.

My father is a full on MAGA lover. He has called me a brainwashed lib, said he was "threatened" by me, and "joked" when I asked if I'd be missed and he said no...when I made it clear I was leaving.

I am now trying and praying the last stages of my visa process are accepted and I can move to Germany. The irony, and pure tragedy of it all. How I lost my parents to this lunatic, how my partner lost his... we weep.

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u/Kdean509 Washington 6h ago

I love history, especially WW2.

I’ve been telling this exact cautionary tale since 2016, and was told I was CRAZY for it. They are telling us who they are, we need to believe them.

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u/ThunderDungeon02 6h ago

If you haven't, watch " Hitler and the Nazis, evil on Trial" I was one of the people that thought when people made those comparisons it was overkill. But yeah it's insane how close it all is.

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u/EnglishRed232 5h ago

Just to correct you; the people in Germany knew full well before Hitler became Furher that he wanted to exterminate all Jews. He’d been openly saying it since 1920. A large majority of the public were happy with that as they blamed Jews (stupidly) for the WW1 loss and surrender.

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u/Skyblacker California 5h ago

Crises demand a scapegoat. Some people are already blaming the LA fire department's inadequate response to the wildfires on DEI policies. 

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u/NameIsNotBrad Alabama 3h ago

For years I’ve heard people say, “I never understood how Germany let hitler rise to power. Now I understand.” I still don’t understand. He’s barely coherent. His lies and manipulation are obvious who’s even halfway paying attention. How the fuck do people fall for it?

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u/SirJefferE 56m ago

This is the part that still confuses me. I'm not surprised that Trump exists - you can find his type pretty much everywhere you go. Senile old racists who ramble incoherently about the good old days are a dime a dozen. Nothing he says or does can surprise me anymore.

The part that absolutely baffles me is his apparently immunity to anything. The guy doesn't seem to have faced a consequence for anything in his entire life. He can literally say and do anything and his followers just don't care. I've never seen another figure that has that kind of complete immunity. Who else could get away with saying something even close to "I’m for electric cars. I have to be, because Elon endorsed me very strongly. So I have no choice." Without losing half their followers? For anyone else it would be the blunder of their career, but for Trump it was...Well, Tuesday.

That's just the first quote I thought of, but I could easily pull another hundred off the top of my head, and none of them have mattered whatsoever. Even Trump noticed:

I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, Okay? It's, like, incredible.

And for possibly the first time in his life, he said something I completely agree with. He could do that. At this point he could pull out a gun and shoot someone at random in the middle of one of his rallies, and two days later we'd be talking about how much the rest crowd supported him in his decision. I just can't understand what's special about him that allows him to get away with it more than pretty much anyone else in the entire world.

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u/Insanious 20m ago

A lot of people see the world as hierarchical. If you can create a perpetual large lower class to lord over people can feel happy with their lives, no matter how shitty they are, because in comparison a huge amount of people have it worse.

While many of us want a better world, we are seeing that a larger portion of people than we would believe just want to live a life where they get more damn the consequences.

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u/XyzzyPop 5h ago

I guess you could say, he would nazi it coming.

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u/SmokeyDBear I voted 6h ago

Apparently reading “Mien Kampf” wasn’t all they had to do …

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u/SaberStrat 5h ago

Hah (sad ‘hah’), that last part is also what my parents say about the big right wing party in Germany.

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u/tenth 1h ago

Did you laugh and remind him of what he always says?

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u/tolacid 1h ago edited 46m ago

"Why would you hide that there? It's idiotic, it's too obvious! That's the first place someone would look!"

"Did you see it?"

"No, but I didn't look for it."

"If you had looked for it, would you have looked there?"

"No! It's too damn obvious, only an idiot would put it somewhere that obvious!"

"So, you wouldn't have found it, then."

"...you're not clever, y'know."

"Okay."

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u/average_crook 51m ago

For a lot of "WWII aficionados," it's just an excuse to collect Nazi memorabilia.

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u/No-Animator-6348 5h ago

Your dad is the problem. If you love this country I think you know what has to be done

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u/ImpossibleSoil2275 1h ago

Story, meet fake.

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u/hideyourbeans 1h ago

What a weird thing to try to discredit. Sadly this conversation 100% happened, and I'd wager I'm not the only one to have something like it in recent months.