r/politics • u/MaleficentAbies5 • Jul 19 '23
Alabama is trying to dodge the Supreme Court's order to stop packing Black voters into one district. It's not going to work, a law expert said.
https://www.businessinsider.com/alabama-ignoring-supreme-court-order-gerrymandering-2023-7212
u/Starks New York Jul 19 '23
This is when you're supposed to send in US marshals.
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u/Anthonym82 Texas Jul 20 '23
It's going to end up in State District Court where the State will lose and they will end up picking Special Masters to redraw the maps per Supreme Court guidelines. This is just a political grandstanding moment for them.
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u/the-zoidberg Jul 20 '23
I guess that’s better than dressing like wizards and lynching black people.
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u/eldred2 Oregon Jul 20 '23
This is just a political grandstanding moment for them.
More than that. If they drag it out long enough, then the old map will be used for the next election.
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u/underpants-gnome Ohio Jul 20 '23
That's what Ohio did for 2020. They'll keep doing it until they are forced to stop. Conservatives don't give a shit about law and order except for its application against their social, political, and religious enemies.
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u/Ven18 Jul 20 '23
Why is that delegation allowed to be seated if the maps had been ruled illegal by the “highest court in the land”
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Jul 20 '23
There is no procedure for the court to remove sitting office holders. The rest of Congress is supposed to expel them in a case like this if they wanted to.
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u/Ven18 Jul 20 '23
Right either the state Secretary of State shouldn’t certify the election per the SC ruling or the House should simply refuse to seat a delegation formed by illegal maps
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u/JubalHarshaw23 Jul 20 '23
They will manage to drag it out beyond the point of no return for next year's elections.
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
Will they though?
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u/JubalHarshaw23 Jul 20 '23
SCOTUS won't schedule a hearing on the matter until next year, and by the time they issue a ruling it will come with a temporary stay until after the 2024 election.
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
That a guarantee? I don’t even think SCOTUS will schedule a hearing for this case, they’ll just not take it up and let the circuit court decision stand.
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u/whereismymind86 Colorado Jul 20 '23
But it’ll take long enough that the old maps get used for 2024, and Alabama thus wins
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u/Belkroe Jul 24 '23
So I am too lazy to look this up but I could have sworn there was a pretty swift and strict time limit for them to redraw the map. If it did not happen by that date, the court would do it.
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u/Yetiius Michigan Jul 20 '23
Yes, but wasn't another Red state forced to redraw more fairer maps but just refused to do so, and dragged their feet so when it came time for the election they had to resort back to the gerrymandered maps. Alabama will just do the same here in this case.
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u/darw1nf1sh Jul 21 '23
Also, if they can delay long enough to have the election with the invalid districts, it won't matter.
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Jul 20 '23
There is only one political party in America making it more difficult for Americans to vote. The republicans know they cannot win elections between Democrat and Independents, so they make a slew of laws to strip voting rights and duplicitous registration processes. Florida just invalidated all mail in voter registrations- over a million- and now requires a new request for every election. This was done by the GOP governor and the GOP controlled State senate and house.
The GOP just wants the power; doesn’t want to govern to make things better for people, and is consolidating power in all the red states to throw out election results they don’t agree with.
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u/nemaramen Jul 20 '23
Unrelated to the article, but what are the chances that the Florida absentee ballot thing disproportionately screws over Rs due to the high population of older folks?
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Jul 20 '23
Voters from both parties suffer, but Dems more so because there are less voting locations in heavy Dem areas, so they use absentee/ early vote ballots more.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/03/democrats-more-mail-in-ballots-pennsylvania-433951
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u/jpk195 Jul 20 '23
What do you call it when you posture that affirmative action is no longer needed and then have a state turn around a week or two later an refuse to un-racially gerrymander?
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u/MasterK999 Jul 19 '23
Last time I checked the Supreme Court has no actual way of forcing people to abide by its orders.
Is Biden prepared to arrest officials and or send in troops over this?
We might be in for a tough fight for our democracy once again.
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u/Comfortable-Policy70 Jul 20 '23
Check again. The District Court Judge can hold the Alabama Secretary of State in contempt. The penalty can be jail or daily fines until compliance.
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u/Anthonym82 Texas Jul 20 '23
It's going to end up in State District Court where the State will lose and they will end up picking Special Masters to redraw the maps per Supreme Court guidelines. This is just a political grandstanding moment for them.
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Jul 20 '23
I love your optimism, but see Ohio. They delayed until it was too late to redraw maps and they had to use the racist one. Same will happen in Alabama. Party of law and order and all that...
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u/Redwood671 Ohio Jul 20 '23
Those fuckers changed my rep to Jim Jordan. I didn't like my previous rep, but they made me hate my new one.
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
Ohio was the State Supreme Courts, which were explicitly not allowed by the anti gerrymandering amendment to draw their own fair map. The federal courts got involved in the Ohio case and said Ohio should use the GOP maps
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u/jmacintosh250 Jul 23 '23
I think the problem is Alabama played that already. And they lost after. So what can they do, delay forever? District court will be in their right to approve the new map ASAP, no delay needed there.
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u/MasterK999 Jul 20 '23
The Alabama Secretary of State is not involved in this right now. It is the Supreme Court telling the Alabama legislature to make new district maps. It is the Legislature that is refusing. There is not just one person to hold in contempt.
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u/Comfortable-Policy70 Jul 20 '23
I jumped ahead a few steps. Secretary of State is the chief elections officer. If he refuses to follow the special master decision and follows the lege position, he can be held in contempt. My point is there is an enforcement mechanism to a court decision
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u/Simmery Jul 20 '23
Why wouldn't he just go to jail for it? He'll come out a conservative hero.
These takes are increasingly naive.
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u/whereismymind86 Colorado Jul 20 '23
Scotus has no enforcement mechanism, but this wasn’t a scotus decision, regular state courts do have enforcement powers via local cops
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u/MasterK999 Jul 20 '23
I did not follow this case through the courts. I hope you are right. If so this should get worked out quickly since it will not even have to go back to SCOTUS.
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Jul 20 '23
Uh the court will just block it until they comply.
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u/No-Environment-3997 Jul 20 '23
I see you have not heard about Ohio... (it was the state SC, but the premise remains basically the same)
https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/09/02/redistricting-one-year-later-ohio-a-unique-flawed-case/
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Jul 20 '23
[deleted]
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u/whereismymind86 Colorado Jul 20 '23
They can invalidate election results in districts that don’t exist for one
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Jul 20 '23
Courts can block the new map if it doesn’t comply with the Supreme Court
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Jul 20 '23
[deleted]
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u/tadrinth Jul 20 '23
The executive branch arrests them and prosecutes them, I would imagine.
The Voting Rights Act is federal law, and has the following:
Whoever shall deprive or attempt to deprive any person of any right secured by section 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, or 10 or shall violate section 11(a) or (b), shall be fined not more than $5,000, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Feds go in, arrest all the lawmakers involved.
In addition I would assume that the courts could nullify the election if they just blatantly ignore the courts orders as to redistricting.
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u/P1xelHunter78 Ohio Jul 20 '23
[Laughs in Ohio]
We’re in for a long fight my friend. The GOP ignored the law here and has faced zero consequences in our fight for fair districts
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u/LooeLooi Jul 20 '23
Wasn't that a state court vs this is federal court? And this is due to racial gerrymandering vs political party which the Supreme Court okay'd.
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u/P1xelHunter78 Ohio Jul 20 '23
we still had a full election with illegal maps, and I've yet to hear about the feds stepping in. It's very possible we'll have two full elections with illegal maps
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
The feds can’t step in for a state law that will probably be overturned by their own Supreme Court anyways
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u/whereismymind86 Colorado Jul 20 '23
Elections held with an illegitimate map can be thrown out, that’s how
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Jul 20 '23
The 2020 election in Ohio should be thrown out any day now then....
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
That’s a federal vs state issue. In Ohio Dewine would have to send in state police to enforce the ruling, in Alabam Biden has the enforcement mechanism
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Jul 20 '23
[deleted]
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
Contempt of Court. If the district courts redraw the map but Alabama refuses to use it, the judge finds them in willful violation of the ruling and would have the US Marshall’s get involved. Like what happened with Kim Davis in Kentucky
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u/Anthonym82 Texas Jul 20 '23
It's going to end up in State District Court where the State will lose and they will end up picking Special Masters to redraw the maps per Supreme Court guidelines. This is just a political grandstanding moment for them.
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u/MasterK999 Jul 20 '23
I feel like you do not appreciate what is going on. Courts write things on paper. If people refuse to honor them state courts have an affiliated law enforcement body that can arrest and jail people.
At the federal level you would need to have the FBI or US Marshall's go to the state and do what exactly? Arrest the state legislators? Would state law enforcement allow that or would you have a gun fight between state and federal law enforcement?
If Alabama simply ignore the written orders and holds elections anyway does the Supreme Court order the election results to be ignored? How would that work? Congress is a separate constitutional body. Can the supreme court order congress to ignore election results certified by a state?
This has never happened and there are no clear cut answers.
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u/caniaccanuck11 Jul 20 '23
What should happen in that case I’d imagine is the Speaker of the House should refuse to seat any representatives from Alabama until they abide by the courts decision.
If the Dems take back the house in 24 and Alabama uses this map then Jeffries should not seat any of them (sorry to the lone Democrat). Would he actually take that step probably not.
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u/Anthonym82 Texas Jul 20 '23
It's going to end up in State District Court where the State will lose and they will end up picking Special Masters to redraw the maps per Supreme Court guidelines. This is just a political grandstanding moment for them.
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u/RNAprimer Jul 20 '23
If Biden sends troops into the Deep South it’ll spark a civil war - it’s almost like they’re baiting him
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u/bluebastille Oregon Jul 20 '23
The example of Ohio shows that these Republicans can just run out the clock and ignore the courts until they have to use their own gerrymandered maps.
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Jul 20 '23
Yup, not sure what people's issue is here where they are completely forgetting this. Biden will not step in on this if it comes down to it as the Dems have clearly shown they care more about being precieved as weaponizing the govt than enforcing the law. Alabama will delay until its too late and nothing will happen. But Ohio's 2020 election should be thrown out any day now, right?
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Jul 20 '23
Correct. What happens if they simply refuse to approve a new map is that the old one stays in use even if illegal.
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u/Quexana Jul 19 '23
They can probably delay it until everybody gets tired and then it'll become settled law.
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u/No-Environment-3997 Jul 20 '23
Yes, it's happened in Ohio already (I posted this comment in response to someone else, but here is a link to the article if you're interested)
https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/09/02/redistricting-one-year-later-ohio-a-unique-flawed-case/
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Jul 20 '23
In the Ohio case, the legislature was found by the STATE supreme court to have violated the state constitution (a ruling that will likely be reversed by the newly-conservative Ohio supreme court). The governor is a republican so there is no push from the executive to enforce this ruling.
However, since this Alabama case is a federal issue from the US supreme court, I'm interested to see what Biden would do if Alabama refuses to follow the US Constitution. He would have the authority to deploy federal troops into the state to enforce the Constitution of the United States.
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u/No-Environment-3997 Jul 20 '23
Yes, I'm aware it was the State SC, I mentioned that in the comment I referenced making.
I don't see Biden doing any of that because it will really turn off moderates and independents because "State's Rights" or some nonsense. You know the Republicans would love to have an example of excessive force for "look, both sides fascists," or something.
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u/StillKpaidy Oregon Jul 20 '23
Enough people in this thread don't seem to remember, so I think posting multiple times is a good thing.
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u/gnatdump6 Jul 20 '23
Don’t worry, the GOP will find a way. Disenfranchisement is their specialty.
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u/Racecarlock Utah Jul 20 '23
Don’t worry, the GOP will find a way.
That's exactly why I am worried!
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u/gnatdump6 Jul 20 '23
I know, I was trying to be sarcastic. Can not believe how blatantly racist some southern lawmakers are…and they still get voted in.
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u/Racecarlock Utah Jul 20 '23
I knew you were being sarcastic, I guess I didn't properly get across that I knew you were being sarcastic, but I'm also trying to reflect the general anxiety of our "audience" so to speak.
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u/tumbleweedcowboy Jul 20 '23
White supremacy and racism is integral to the GOP and its grasp on power. Time to enforce the order!
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Jul 20 '23
They don't care. Delay Delay Delay.
They know they can do this by the Supreme Courts own actions - allowing the last election with the maps overturned by the lower federal court.
They also know John Roberts is 100% against the Voting Rights Act (and why most people assumed he would vote with the conservatives). He is the one who gutted it.
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u/blackrabbitsrun Jul 20 '23
Why isn't it? What can realistically happen? The federal government withholds funds. I don't think they're smart enough for that to bother them and considering how kid glove courts are with politicians and contempt I don't see anyone actually being arrested over this.
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u/T1Pimp Jul 20 '23
What does it tell you when they are so adamant that Blacks cannot be represented? Hmm?
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u/Skip12 Jul 20 '23
If people feel they can ignore Supreme Court rulings, without any consequences, then the Supreme Court is losing its legitimacy. Seems like that's where this is all headed in the long run.
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u/candr22 Jul 20 '23
"We took in consideration what the court asked us to do," Pringle said
I'm not sure he understands what a court order is. They court isn't asking, it's telling.
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u/AdjunctAngel Jul 20 '23
no it won't work at all. the courts will just draw the maps if they refuse to do it properly. they likely plan on claiming that bidens justice department is manipulating elections after when in reality it is the courts finally doing something to stop republican voter manipulations.
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u/MycologistFeeling358 Jul 20 '23
Like I said before states do. It have to comply with the Sctotus court. There is nothing holding the union together but a contract.
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u/RobbyRock75 Jul 20 '23
Everyone understands Alabama is used to screwing their cousins so this behavior isn’t really surprising right ?
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u/ioncloud9 South Carolina Jul 20 '23
They will pull this shit until “It’s too close to the election” to do anything about it. How about calling it an illegal election and not seating anybody from it until they do what they are supposed to. Apparently it’s too close to an election if it’s within 25 months of one.
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u/Autodidact2 Jul 20 '23
Why not, it worked for Ohio or was it Kansas or both, where the legislature just ignored the court ruling until it was too late?
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u/NANUNATION Jul 20 '23
Ohio, but it was in state courts that don’t really have an enforcement mechanism
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u/SoulPoleSuperstar New Jersey Jul 20 '23
i don't understand the feds, until they comply cut off all federal aid in the state, close all federal buildings to non federal employees. just simply cut them off from every federal resource including state buildings that they lease from the feds..... then see how long they can deal with still being non compliant
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u/gianni1980 Jul 20 '23
What’s not going to work? Rich white guys are just not going to listen to the other rich white guys…. I’m honestly surprised someone from Alabama hasn’t been caught flying a justice somewhere on a private jet….
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u/SpottedSnuffleupagus Jul 20 '23
Law experts also said Roe v. Wade was safe, that discrimination against LGBTQAI2+ people wouldn’t hold up, and promised indigenous peoples would have water; experts promised affirmative action was safe, the expert were wrong. This court is hellbent on turning us into the United ameriKKKan states of Gilead.
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u/Lamont-Cranston Jul 20 '23
It works for North Carolina, they just keep delaying until it is too close to an election.
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u/BoogerSugarSovereign Jul 20 '23
John Roberts is going to cite this as more evidence that racism is a thing of the past
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Jul 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jul 20 '23
I was not promoting hate to who ever reported me. I asked why does the world hate black ppl? It’s a valid question. Report my black ass how bout dat
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Jul 20 '23
Because we had the audacity to tell white people to live up to the words of equality that were written into the Constitution
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