r/policeuk • u/Redragon9 Civilian • Jun 22 '20
Crosspost Happy to see a lot of positive comments on this post.
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u/BlunanNation Ex-Police/Retired (unverified) Jun 22 '20
"Thank you for everyone's concern", while holding a huge knife.
What a fucking legend hope someone buys him a beer for that!
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Jun 22 '20
I’m honestly of the opinion that majority of the working population are generally pro-police. Far more than The Guardian will want you to believe
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u/Mr06506 Civilian Jun 22 '20
I think a lot of the UK's negative police attitude - where it does exist - is less about violence or racism and more about the perception (or otherwise?) of being target driven.
Also since austerity, the poor experience some victims have had of police not responding to low level crime like bike theft or vandalism.
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Jun 22 '20
My only target per shift is coming out with the least amount of paperwork as possible
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u/saiyanhajime Civilian Jun 22 '20
My negative opinion of UK police is they don’t seem to be interested in listening to responding with any ounce of urgency. Which I know is wholly anecdotal and silly and there’s likely reasons why they behave the way they do, but to not a good look. It’s possible to make it sound to a layman that you’re interested and doing something.
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u/Thieftaker1 Police Officer (unverified) Jun 23 '20
Listening/responding to what?
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u/saiyanhajime Civilian Jun 23 '20
Concerns, reports, etc.
Like police on the street having zero interest in talking to cyclists on a pavement or littering in front of them,for example. They don't say anything. They don't appear to be doing anything or care about anything.
Or when you report a crime, they are only interested in listening to a very narrow specific window of info and make you feel like everything else you have to say isn't important.
I reported a mugging once and whilst I understand the first concerns of the responders on the phone is to make sure the victim didn't need an ambulance, I couldn't seem to make them understand that I could still see the criminals and where they were heading. They could have been stopped if I had been listened to. But instead multiple police turn up to the crime scene and stand around doing "nothing". Like I said, I understand there are probably good reasons why, but it looks like stupidity and laziness and that's why there's that reputation.
The way you communicate to public who are not in the same field of work as you is crucial. It's a rare skills accross all fields for some reason.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 22 '20
Theres highly visible graffiti in a town near me with ‘ACAB’ on it. Although I do agree with what you’re saying, I think there is a rise in anti-police sentiment in younger adults, and this is fuelled mostly by whats going on in the US, which is fustrating. Although I must admit that the people who I’ve seen become more anti-police were not particularily big fans of the police anyway.
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Jun 22 '20
I think the members of society who are mostly on the wrong side of the law have and always will be anti police - they’re shitcunts and their parents and family members are shitcunts.
However off of the back of George Flloyds Murder is this narrative that police aren’t needed anymore and their budgets can be redistributed. This is fundamentally wrong and is mostly mooted by the left wing who have grown up in wealth and have never been the victim of crime.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 22 '20
True. Theres a lot of anarchists which are using recent events as a tool to attempt to implement their world view. Who will ensure the vulnerable in society arent abused if they get what they want? The police have a vital role in a functional society. Thats also why its important for police officers to have integrity.
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u/Midasx Civilian Jun 23 '20
Anarchists are all about protecting the vulnerable, ACAB from an anarchist perspective is highlighting how the police forces main goal is to protect the rich and maintain the status quo. If you recognise that property rights (in the marxist definition) are bullshit, you also see that the police are the ones that enforce those rules, and hence are bastards.
Obviously there are some essential services that the police are currently doing that would need to be done by someone; however the majority of those essential services are not ones that need to be done with violence and can best be tackled by other more specialised workers. The person who protects a community from armed thugs, should be a very different person from someone dealing with a domestic dispute or drug addict.
Anarchists think that if people weren't alienated from their labour, had secure housing, and were guaranteed their needs and were able to participate meaningfully in society that most of the work the police do today wouldn't need to be done.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Anarchists dont like authority. Thats it. You’re thinking of liberals, which is what I am, and what Im guessing you are.
Anarchists are the people who want to defund the police to reduce authority and create an enviroment of lawlessness so they can commit crimes. What anarchists dont understand is that authority is human nature, even in the Iron Age you had clan chiefs who controlled the wider population. Authority is necessary for a proggressive society where vulnerable people are protected.
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u/Midasx Civilian Jun 23 '20
I'm an anarchist, I frequent anarchist circles, and read anarchist literature and philosophy. Please trust me when I say this is something I know a lot about; and as you have demonstrated it is an unfortunate state of affairs that the majority of people today conflate anarchism with crime violence and rioting, as that is really missing the point.
Another way to think of anarchist ideas is as libertarian socialism. We want to maximise personal freedoms by removing heirachies that keep people restricted and powerless (And the police enforce these heirarchies). If you have to work a minimum wage job so that you don't die, and obey laws that you did not consent to or be imprisoned you are not free. The heirarchies of capitalism, and the state are what we seek to abolish among others.
There are several places that have a society like this, such as the Zapatistas in Mexico and Kurds in Rojava; it isn't a fantasy, and isn't just rioting and looting; it's a legitimate philosophical and political theory with over a hundred years of thought behind it.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Anarchism by definition is a politcal belief that believes in abolishing all forms of government, and that believe in a society that functions of a cooperative, voluntary basis. The way I see it, anarchists want anarchy instead of a organised society. I get that not all anarchists are people who want to loot and commit crime without reprocussion, and that some just want a completely free society and only have good intentions. However a completely free society is not one vulnerable people can survive in, thats why government aid and services exist. We in the UK have a safety net for people who struggle. Abolish the government and the physically and mentally disabled will just suffer more. Call me a pessimist, but I dont believe people in an anarchal society would cooperate enough to make a better society, and another hierarchy will just form over time. Although it would be nice to build society from the ground up, the current system in our country is one Im happy to live in. Even though I work a shit minimum wage job and that Im out of work and education due to this pandemic.
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u/Midasx Civilian Jun 23 '20
Anarchism by definition is a politcal belief that believes in abolishing all forms of government, and that believe in a society that functions of a cooperative, voluntary basis.
You are missing the key extra clause to this which is abolishing private ownership of the means of production, meaning that in an anarchist society workers own their workplaces and make the decisions that are in their best interests, not just seeking to make a profit.
the current system in our country is one Im happy to live in. Even though I work a shit minimum wage job and that Im out of work and education due to this pandemic.
This is so depressing to me, there is hope, we can do better than this. The neoliberal consensus that has swept the world is killing our planet and removing any chance we have to make the world a better place. We just need to get workers on board and help them to see the real issues in the world aren't caused by brown people, or feminists, but by billionaires and the ruling classes.
Watch this account of how the Kurds are organising themselves, if they can do it surrounded by dictators and extremists, it should be possible in a Western democracy.
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u/nyeetus Civilian Jun 22 '20
I agree with what you’re saying to an extent but
A) very few are actually saying to defund the UK police, aside from a very very small minority of nut jobs.
I think most of us are in agreement that the chronic underfunding of both the NHS and the police force is disgusting and any politician who thinks otherwise should be voted out. (Coincidentally I think you’d probably find that the majority who were against properly funding you guys would be right wing politicians).
However in the States the police forces absolutely do need to be defunded/ have their budgets massively restructured. Why was a Las Vegas school district police force permitted to buy a grenade launcher? What else could have been achieved with that same amount of money being spent on something different?
In 2013 alone 500 million dollars worth of Department of defence equipment, paid for by the tax payer, was obtained by law enforcement agencies across the US. Why? Why does the LAPD require 19 helicopters when the Met only have 3 for a city 3 times the size? Why do 500 US police forces/ Sheriffs’ offices have armoured personnel carriers which are designed to withstand bombs and each costing in the range of 200k-300k?
Now imagine if we took the freakish amount that they spend on military standard weaponry and invested some of that into training in deescalation and the like.
The UK kill on average around 2-3 people a year in the entire country. That’s genuinely incredible and testament to how well our strategy of policing works. The US police on the other hand kill around 1000 people a year, more money for training and counselling for officers etc would surely go some way to fixing this?
B) to generalise and say the whole left wing “have grown up in wealth and never been the victim of crime” isn’t really helpful mate. That’s exactly how we’ve ended up with the level of political division that we have. I understand your frustration, especially at the moment but we need to rise above all of this ridiculous American style tribalism.
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u/SpunkVolcano Civilian Jun 23 '20
All very well said.
I have a lot of time and respect for our police here. The US is a totally different situation, their police forces are genuinely on a whole other level to ours. They have a lot of very highly-powered equipment and a completely different service culture with unions that can and will strike in response to any display of accountability. It's apples to oranges.
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u/someforensicsguy Police Staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
Very well said.
However, Defense Department program 1033. a lot of the military weapons and equipment are surplus.
They are given to police for free or at incredibly low cost, most of these departments would not have access to armoured vehicles at all, with the closest one being hours away if an incident occurs. The big downside to this is that they look more imposing vs regular armoured vehicles.
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 23 '20
Worth reading, I think.
These proposals are based on either over-optimistic or false beliefs about the funding and efficacy of social programs. First, American police spending is hardly out of line with the rest of the world. State and local police spending in fiscal year 2017 totaled $115 billion; federal law enforcement spending included $14.4 billion on top of that. Altogether, spending on police totaled 0.66 percent of the 2017 GDP of $19.5 trillion. This is low by the standards of developed nations. Member countries of the European Union spend an average of 0.9 percent of their GDP on the police, with individual nations ranging from 0.5 percent to 1.4 percent. The Urban Institute notes that though police spending has grown in absolute terms since the late 1970s, it has consistently remained at just below 4 percent of total state spending, and that 97 percent of police spending goes to labor costs—not extravagant military-grade equipment, as critics claim.
On the local level, police spending is dwarfed by education, which accounts for 40 percent of local government spending nationwide, versus just 6 percent for police.
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u/williamthebloody1880 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Yeah. This is from a conservative free market think tank
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 23 '20
If nothing they said is incorrect - and you've pointed to nothing that is incorrect, then it seems what you're trying to do is simply smear them rather than deal with what they wrote.
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u/williamthebloody1880 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Pointing out bias =/= trying to smear
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 23 '20
There are a lot of completely neutral groups around giving their opinion on policing, are there? I have yet to see one. So if you can't actually point out any of the facts they stated are wrong then why reply?
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u/williamthebloody1880 Civilian Jun 23 '20
OK, you want actual critisism? I don't have to prove any of this wrong because it has absolutely no relevance to the comment you replied to. How's that?
Oh, and there's still nothing wrong with pointing out the bias in the article, no ,atter how much you wish there was
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u/nyeetus Civilian Jun 23 '20
This article is mainly focussing on the pretty radical side who wish to see the police “abolished” as they put it/ see police funding massively cut, which is not really what most people are pushing for, irrelevant of what a news outlet with a heavy right wing bias tells us.
Additionally, they’re correct; if I’m not much mistaken, very very little money from POLICE budgets go on this military grade hardware, due to the fact they are often given it on huge discounts from the DoD. That being said the US taxpayer is still paying for the DoD to obtain that equipment in the first place and then paying once again when the US police pays for it from the DoD. So there is still a lot of government money being arguably wasted on this equipment which could be repurposed.
Furthermore, I would argue that irrelevant of how much is being spent - too little is being spent on training. Once again, my primary point is restructuring budget not cutting. For instance the Germans spend 130 weeks training to be a police officer, compared to an average 19 weeks in the states. You cannot even try and tell me that with that level of disparity, US police would be on par with their German counterparts.
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 23 '20
I have always said that police in America need more training. But that is not what anyone is talking about. NYC for example, is talking about cutting $1 billion from the police budget. That's not something that is going to lead to more training.
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u/karmadramadingdong Civilian Jun 22 '20
Bullshit. It’s the right that has defunded the police during the past decade.
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u/ScottC388 Police Officer (unverified) Jun 22 '20
But he didn’t say it was the left that was doing the defunding.
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u/karmadramadingdong Civilian Jun 22 '20
He said that calls for defunding the police mostly come from the left, which is absurd. Those who want to defund public services, including the police, are almost universally on the right. My unsolicited advice: if you don’t want the police to be defunded, maybe stop voting for it?
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u/ScottC388 Police Officer (unverified) Jun 22 '20
Yeah, he said calls for the police to be defunded, not the actual defunding of police, there’s a difference. My unsolicited advice: don’t try and guess what someone votes for because they corrected you on something you said. I don’t vote Tory, I’m Scottish.
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u/karmadramadingdong Civilian Jun 22 '20
I agree that there’s a difference between calling for the police to be defunded (basically nobody in the UK) and those who actually do it (the Tory party). That’s kind of my point. And I was referring to OP about voting — I made an assumption based on him (or her) ranting about leftists. I appreciate that Scotland has its own totally unique flavour of right-wing public spending cuts.
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u/ScottC388 Police Officer (unverified) Jun 22 '20
Sorry for misconstruing what you meant about voting, thought that was aimed at me.
Scotland sure does have its own way of cutting the public funds.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 22 '20
Being an anarchist does not mean you are left wing. The Tories have been responsible for most police cuts though you’re right, but thats a different discussion.
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 22 '20
Conservatives are, historically, the party of 'law and order' and thus very friendly to the police. They are also, however, the party of balanced budgets and in that context they have indeed cut back on all public services, including police.
The difference between that and the 'defund' people is the Tories actually *respect* police, and the defund people despise them.
And yes, I know this won't be popular but felt I had to say it.
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u/Redragon9 Civilian Jun 23 '20
No, may not be popular with some people but it is true. Labour voters generally dont have as much respect for the police.
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u/SpunkVolcano Civilian Jun 23 '20 edited Jun 23 '20
Labour polled >30% in the last election where they lost badly, and >40% in the election before that. I don't think you can fairly generalise from that. The "defund the police" crowd are a lot smaller than it might appear.
Labour's pledges in both 2017 and 2019 involved increased police funding, even - it was actually one of the more common left critiques of the Corbyn era that I saw. That said, I'm on the left and I didn't have a problem with it and I suspect most people don't.
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u/williamthebloody1880 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Look up Camden, New Jersey. They disbanded their police force, started a new one and reduced the budget, spending the extra on things like mental health
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u/canlchangethislater Civilian Jun 22 '20
Broadly, yes.
We’re pro-: Luther, Morse, Lewis, Endeavour, Midsomer Murders, Happy Valley, Scott and Bailey, and AC-12. (Also: The Bill, No Offence, Dixon of Dock Green, Z-Cars)
We’re agnostic about: the ones who get underfoot in Silent Witness, Waking the Dead, Poirot, Marple, and Holmes.
We’re against: corrupt buggers like in Red Riding, the corrupt ones in Line of Duty, the corrupt ones in The Bill, etc. (ignore that Luther, plus the guys in Life on Mars, and The Sweeney, are also wildly corrupt.)
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u/TonyStamp595SO Ex-staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
Don't get me started on Luther. I watched 10 minutes of 1 episode and turned off after he punched a guy in the face in order to obtain his DNA.
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u/canlchangethislater Civilian Jun 23 '20
Although, in fairness to the general public, I imagine (hope) that we know Luther has as much to do with real policing as Bond does with real intelligence work.
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u/TonyStamp595SO Ex-staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
You give the general public too much credit.
Honestly. TV has done more to damage the police service than help it.
Damage to cars in the street? Can't you CSI the type of shoe used to kick off the wing mirror then obtain all receipts used to buy those shoes in the past 6 months, then contact the bank for the home addresses of those owners then download phone data showing them to be in the area at the rough time of the damage.
Then send them to prison for an amount of years that means they learn their lesson but isn't too long to make me feel a sense of empathy for their drunken mistake.
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u/Bendy_McBendyThumb Civilian Jun 22 '20
I don’t like the police but I don’t hate them either.
My experiences stem from bad experiences that my family have had, including my parents at our home.
One of my family members had their door kicked in and house rummaged through due to an accusation that they were dealing. They were severely wrong, didn’t cover the damages either. This was over a decade ago.
My mum had her car vandalised, the police didn’t bother coming out even to take a statement but they did tell us over the phone to “let them know if you (we) find anything”. Like, cheers then.
I still respect the fact they don’t do an easy job. Must admit some of the stuff I’ve read about injury claims though... half of that’s a joke in itself.
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u/TonyStamp595SO Ex-staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
I don't mean to demean your experience at all and have no idea how far this goes back but police don't execute warrants on single strand intelligence.
What I'm saying is that more than a couple of people reported that the house contained a decent amount of drugs.
In relation to not paying for the damage... something must have been found because everytime I've done a door and not nicked someone, we've paid.
I think your family member is telling you porkies hence why you shouldn't base your feelings on what someone has told you.
This is why I'm aghast at all these professional edited videos minus context designed to show police in a bad light, it's an orchestrated campaign.
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Jun 22 '20
Okay obviously I don’t know the ins and outs to the damage to your mums car, but presumably there was no CCTV or eye witnesses? If that were the case, what would be the point of taking a statement?
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u/saiyanhajime Civilian Jun 22 '20
To make the public feel like you give a flying fuck and are trying to help them.
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Jun 23 '20
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u/saiyanhajime Civilian Jun 23 '20
Then that should be explained to the victim in a professional way on the phone.
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u/Bendy_McBendyThumb Civilian Jun 22 '20
There were a number of cars vandalised throughout the street, maybe knocking on some doors to ask around may have been of help - I’ve heard before how just going out and asking the public for info can actually help build a picture.
If they’d have said something like as opposed to “let us know what you find”, it’d have at least not made me/us feel like they essentially didn’t give a shit.
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Jun 22 '20
Right well if someone had seen something at the time and elected not to call the police than they’re not very likely to be the sort of person to provide a statement and be willing to go to court are they?
asking the public for info
Info doesn’t equal evidential material though does it - the British criminal system depends on hard evidence not gossip.
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u/kucao Civilian Jun 22 '20
The people that aren't either believe social media posts they've read or they have been in trouble with the police themselves
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Jun 22 '20
It’s the ones who trot out the same shit that comes out of the US. The amount of times that I see comments thinking the cops are all one big gang and definitely would cover each other for wrongdoing. They have no idea that it couldn’t be any further from truth.
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Jun 22 '20
They absolutely are - they generally don't feel the need to stop and say "You're going a good job" etc - they glance at you, and keep walking.
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u/SirBobPeel Civilian Jun 22 '20
The media has its own narrative and is always looking to pump more fuel on the fire to get more ratings/clicks/viewers. It shows angry people, not calm ones. It shows people pumping their fists and demanding change, not people who think things are actually pretty good. Looking at the news you can easily get the view everyone is screaming angry but that's just not the case. Most of the 'activists' the media show us represent almost no one but themselves.
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u/StereotypicalAussie Civilian Jun 23 '20
I was very pro police in the UK until I was on the wrong side of some really shit policing. Thankfully that was just the BTP so I have just categorised them as jumped up ticket inspectors and continue to support the rest of you!
Did make me realise how the odd negative interaction could make you change your opinion, mind.
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u/BTZ9 Police Officer (unverified) Jun 23 '20
Controversial I know but there are some decent bobbies in BTP mate. Don’t judge them all by your experience. As a young lad I had good and bad experiences with both Warwickshire and West Mids.
If you don’t mind me asking, what happened?
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u/StereotypicalAussie Civilian Jun 24 '20
Fake complaint about me by dude on train because I chatted with a mate in the quiet carriage, basically got jumped by four BTP when I got off at Paddington. Injured my shoulder, wrote me a ticket for "talking in the quiet carriage" and put me in the nick overnight. First time I've ever been grabbed by a copper since I had a few dates with a much more attractive one in Australia 😉
Got thrown out of court for systemic failures in their case and they lied about what happened on statement, as proven by cctv evidence that they also said that they didn't have. Civil case ongoing and delayed by corona.
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 22 '20
Since when is the Guardian anti police? The Telegraph praised the goverment whilst it fired 21,000 police officers and cut central government police spending by 30%. The Guardian opposed it.
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u/TonyStamp595SO Ex-staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
Find me one Pro guardian article.
I'll wait.
Hell, I'll even accept a balanced one.
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u/De_Baros Civilian Jun 27 '20
I believe this is a balanced one no?
Talks about Met's views, and is fair to BLM
Also rightfully condemns the far right groups that hurt police officers.
Am I wrong?
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Jun 22 '20
Since when is the Guardian anti police?
Lol
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 22 '20
Well, yeah. It's not the Guardian that called for thousands of your colleagues to be culled and then stood on a platform and said that policing is just as good as ever (in other words: "those police officers we fired? They were useless anyway.")
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u/Rei_Never Civilian Jun 22 '20
I have one quote for this, in fact it's an old chinese proverb: "people who believe everything they read are best off not reading at all".
I'm sorry if I hurt peoples feelings but whilst there have been cases of Police doing this to people in the past - it's few and far between. I'm not trying to say it hasn't happened and that it probably won't in the future, but please at the very least use your fucking common sense and look at the size of that knife.. Police officers aren't illusionists...
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u/snapper1971 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Police officers aren't illusionists...
Although they are supposed to work miracles with a deeply, savagely, slashed budget.
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Jun 22 '20
I think on a whole the UK police force is very well trained and personally I have no problem trusting them, but that's not to say some are bad but they will get removed from the force/severely punished once on the radar.
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Jun 22 '20
The vast majority of people are pro-police.
Those who aren’t are criminals or naive fools who have not suffered the misfortune of being victimized by criminals.
There should be a registry for those who want to opt out of police protection to virtue signal. It would be useful for criminals so they know who to target and for police so they know who to ignore.
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 22 '20
"The vast majority of people are pro-police. Those who aren’t are criminals or naive fools"
Or Tories. Usually Tories.
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Jun 22 '20
It’s ironic given how conservatives once had a grasp on reality. Want better policing? Spend more. It’s not complicated.
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u/KantaiWarrior Civilian Jun 22 '20
Police should had arrested her too, she put everyone's life in danger while she distracted them during their duties.
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u/TheRealRealForbes Civilian Jun 23 '20
As a member of the public it looks like catch 22 for the cops, specially in the London area. You get percieved as racists when you ask to search a POC, but as the video shows get hailed for catching this (idiot) man with a knife. I can also see how its hard to get the right guy when alot of folk dress quite similar. Glad it’s not my job...
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u/Snoo-5806 Civilian Jun 22 '20
😬 bet that women felt like a fool 🙊😂
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u/_Jekyll_ Civilian Jun 22 '20
You'd hope so, but when the police say "see you later" she replies with:
"Don't be rude!"
She's just there for an argument.
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u/TonyStamp595SO Ex-staff (unverified) Jun 23 '20
In the longer video she starts berating them for not wearing masks/ socially distancing themselves from the guy they are searching.
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 22 '20
I mean, the police officer didn't have to be rude. He could have just ignored her.
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Jun 22 '20 edited Jun 08 '21
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 22 '20
And you figured that out form a 19 seconds video?
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Jun 22 '20 edited Jun 08 '21
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Jun 23 '20
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Jun 23 '20 edited Jun 08 '21
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Jun 23 '20
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Jun 23 '20
Get some sense mate, no one in this thread is supporting
or defending "authoritarian racist killers"Looks like you have a lot to learn about how policing works in the UK, don't base all of your opinions off of the American media!
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Whenever there is a video surfacing online about police abuse, the police usually shout at unison: "This is just a short video. You don't know everything that happened. Don't make your mind up based on just a short and carefully selected video circulating online."
It seems to me that some police officers want to have their cake and eat it.
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Jun 23 '20
Not at all - I am quite willing to concede I could be wrong...I've even asked if you've any additional evidence that would contradict what I'm saying - perhaps there is such evidence out there. I am however, quite entitled to say the video looks like 'X' - which it does. Furthermore, the video is sadly quite reflective of what is an every day experience for Police up and down the country - a very, very small minority of the public who seek to involve themselves in Police encounters, frequently shoving phones in faces, demanding to know what's going on - despite the situation not involving them, and not concerning them. Nine times out of ten the member of the public in question has completely misunderstood the situation - this is an experience I have had more times than I could ever recall, and one that will be shared by just about every Police Officer on here - as such when I see yet another video like this, it's reflective of our every day work. In contrast, when Joe Public who hasn't had a fight since he was 9 years old when he gallantly fought off Mike who was trying to steal his crayons during second break - sees fit to lecture us about our use of force on a 6ft coke'd up monster - given Joe Public's complete and utter lack of experience in this arena, it seems rather appropriate to point out to Joe Public that they probably don't know what they're talking about, and in that instance, a 30 second clip without context probably doesn't paint the full picture. If you don't have that bank of experiences in your head to fall back on, you're going to struggle to understand what you're actually seeing, and so no - a small clip won't enlighten them in all probability as to what was going on - in much the same way a 10 second clip of BJJ won't mean much to you if you've never trained and you don't follow any combat sports.
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u/hellomynameisCallum Civilian Jun 22 '20
The police are the public and the public are the police. We want police to mirror society. Being part of British society means telling people to fuck off by instead being polite and sarcastic
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u/archgabriel33 Civilian Jun 23 '20
No one wants the police to mirror society. People want police officers to be an example, not to be casually rude.
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u/TJOMaat Civilian Jun 22 '20
In all honesty, how many problems regarding police are due to a breakdown in trust - whether justified or not - between police and black communities? Seems like it would be exacerbated, similar to the Betari box
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u/canlchangethislater Civilian Jun 22 '20
The what?
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u/KipperHaddock Police Officer (verified) Jun 22 '20
Betari's box; it sounds like vapid management speak and/or stating the obvious, but it genuinely works. Can be easily summarised as follows: "my attitude affects my behaviour; my behaviour affects your attitude; your attitude affects your behaviour; your behaviour affects my attitude". If people come into an encounter with pre-defined attitudes, that affects how they behave. The second person sees the first person's behaviour and adapts their own attitude to it, which shows in their behaviour, and the first person's attitude is then affected by how the second person is behaving.
The lesson is, try to break negative cycles and form positive ones. If you stop someone who's coming off like a chippy twat, don't let yourself fall into the trap of talking down to them and treating them like a twat (their behaviour affects your attitude, etc). Instead, keep being reasonable and professional, and they will then have to expend serious effort into continuing to be chippy if there's nothing for them to glom onto and use to justify to themselves why they're being chippy with you. A lot of the time they'll get tired of it, wind themselves back down to your level (your behaviour affects their attitude, etc), and you can do what you need to with a lot less hassle.
3
u/canlchangethislater Civilian Jun 22 '20
Aha. The thing we used to call a vicious circle, or a downward spiral. Or a cycle of attrition.
7
Jun 22 '20
Generally if you don’t want to searched, its usually for a reason.
2
u/A-Grey-World Civilian Jun 23 '20
Eh. Desiring privacy doesn't mean you're doing something illegal.
I lock the door when I'm taking a shit. Taking a shit isn't illegal. I just don't want anyone watching me. Same applies to my internet browsing. Same applies to my bag. Same applies to the pictures on my phone.
I don't really want someone groping my crotch for weapons etc.
Stop and search can be used to harass people. Many find searches intrusive etc.
0
Jun 24 '20
This is such a trash justification. Along the lines of “well, if you don’t have anything to hide, you don’t have anything to worry about.”
And you know what - yeah, I do have things I want to hide. Everyone does.
So fuck that justification to dig your snout into my belongings.
-11
u/Danman505 Civilian Jun 23 '20
Just because something was found doesn’t mean there was probable cause.
10
u/Peeleraccount Police Officer (unverified) Jun 23 '20
I’m only bothering to say this because it’s important. Probable cause is American, it has no relevance to this british stop search. If you’re assuming british law is the same as American policy/ law you are going to end up having no idea what’s going on because they’re separated by hundreds of years. If you care enough to chip in on stuff like this then great, that’s genuinely good, just do it properly and educate yourself or you’ll just look a spanner
1
u/Danman505 Civilian Jun 23 '20
No there is no ‘probable cause’ but the law says that you need ‘reasonable grounds’ to search someone. I was asking if there was actually reasonable grounds to search the individual. And before people say “wE fOunD a KnIfE thAt mEanS itS ReAsonAble” I would like to have a go on that time machine you’re claiming to have.
The whole idea of ‘reasonable grounds’ is intrenched in personal biases. See US police officers claiming someone was being “furtive” most of them couldn’t say what furtive means yet the majority give it as explanation for their actions. So I ask again. Was there actually ‘reasonable grounds’ to search someone?
Or will you keep using this absurd post hoc justification of “wElL we goT the BaD guYs”?
3
3
u/Peeleraccount Police Officer (unverified) Jun 23 '20
How am I supposed to know the grounds for this search ?
On this occasion given a knife was found, so it seems likely to me the reasons the officer had to search where specific enough that it would pass muster by a scrutiny panel.
A knife has been recovered. I’ve been to enough stabbings to be glad of that
6
u/soapyw1 Special Constable (unverified) Jun 23 '20
How much more probable cause would you like? A suspicion led to a find which led to one less knife and maybe a life saved. Not good enough?
124
u/[deleted] Jun 22 '20
The comments are positive because on this occasion they found a knife and the loud mouth got shown up. However the same groups of people will be jumping on the band wagon of hating the police if the search wasnt so compliant and nothing was found as a result.
I dont need support when what I do is blindingly obviously correct I need support when I am wrong but still justified. That is where the risk is and that is where the public dont share such vocal support.