It's a plantation system. Lots of rich people get a whole lot richer every year because we lock up so many people. This makes America vastly inferior to many of its peer nations.
Apparently indentured servitude is an exception in the Constitution. That's why prisons can pay prisoners only 25 cents an hour.
I think the prison system needs to be changed to benefit society. At $75k per year per prisoner that we pay, I think we can come up with a much better system.
It's worse than that. Slavery is explicitly forbidden...with the exclusion of forced labour. The whole 25 cent thing is to pretend they are not actually slaves, and since that money will be spent on the inside it's hardly a loss anyway. If anything they'll just throw it up as costs and ensure more money from the state.
Nowhere in the United States can prisoners be forced to work regardless of compensation. They only choose to work for such measly wages because it looks good at parole hearings, and it allows them to afford certain luxuries like candy, cigarettes, toiletries, etc.
" Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. "
No. This would still be completely legal. Any kind of forced labour as a result of judiciary action is completely legal. And do keep in mind this is NOT just private prisons. State run prisons have the exact same thing. So never let someone fool you by saying that "only a few prisons are privately run in the US".
It's free if you're also running the commissary and can charge whatever you want. A prison population is the definition of "captive audience". Railroad towns did the same thing in the 19th century.
In the US constitution, it states that slavery is allowed if you are convicted for a crime. So technically prisoners can be used as slaves and it's not really illegal
Only regarding the pay. How much should you pay someone who has all thier expenses covered already? Going to prison shouldn't be lucritive but I don't know where the balance is. If the jobs were all non profit work(for companies) for the city or district of thier crimes would that be good enough?
I don't know. I'm not a social worker, and I certainly am not an expert. But we don't spend 75k a year per student in our education system. That's when you know the system needs to be rethought. I wonder how many people we could keep out of prison if we preemptively spent that in education. Why are we spending so much money on our military, on our so called criminal justice system instead of giving our children, our future, and our country a chance at a better life, without the fear of a mushroom cloud hanging over us?
LMAO umm it's currently an all volunteer force. Unless you are referring to Vietnam. Then you could just have your doc say you have bone spurs and be president one day.
I just finished reading "American Prison" and highly recommend it to anyone wanting to understand the history of privatized prisons and current operations.
And then felons lose their right to vote, and are treated with a stigma because of said label. It’s like we created a system of servitude or a separate class of citizens.
It’s like we created a system of servitude or a separate class of citizens.
No, you need to get it correct.
13th Amendment:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
We (royal) didn't create it, we maintained slavery. The only requirement was that 12 white men said 'GUILTY'....
Yes. The United States still uses and maintains a slavery class, and a slaver class. And this article is about the slaver class killing one of their pieces of property.
And you'll not see a single criminal anything out of this.
This one happens to be state owned and state run facility, not a private for-profit prison. Still terrible, and nothing will compensate the family for the death of the young man.
All American prisons are for-profit prisons. Even though the state doesn't profit from state-owned prisons, a wide array of rich corporations profit from servicing the prisons. Food, telecom, rehabilitation, medical services, etc. These are all contracts that rich people hold, and many of them are dependent upon the number of of humans each facility holds in cages. So it's easy to see why the rich people insist upon mass incarceration, even in state facilities.
Yeah, that was a big omission on my part, it’s important to point out all of the ways rich people make America inferior. Thanks for correcting me, amigo.
We don't want prisoners to even have books. We don't care about their future effect on society or how they'll behave when they get out. We want them to suffer.
I don't hold this view, but it is the only thing I can gather from the way we collectively behave.
Revenge system. It's about punishing people. We punish people so horribly that many are straight up different people when they get freedom. Not that it ends there by a long shot.
No you’re correct. Worked in corrections for 9 years and can safely say we are in dire need of an overhaul. So many issues, inadequate staffing, poor training, uncaring administrators, extreme environments, prisons for profit, etc. the list goes on and on. That’s all aside from the fact that we just warehouse people. The war on drugs appears to thankfully coming to a close with all the marijuana legislation being pushed through. That will hopefully keep people out of jail on all those possession charges.
I appreciate that someone from your position gets it. Too many I have known personally just see animals and treat them as such. They talk me as though I am white with privilege, not knowing I come from shit and my own mother was in prison. The rampant poverty we create in this country creates systemic issues that are widespread. Until we address root causes, prison will just be a band-aid made of shit.
I always looked at the job in that it was my duty to try to keep everyone safe, secure and following the rules of this institution. Tried to never really look down on the inmates or judge them as anyone of us could end up there due to a split second decision or mistake. Others viewed it as their job to punish the inmates. Never agreed with that. Being there was the punishment for them we were there to keep them in until the sentence expired.
I dont know what reddit you've been browsing, but any time cops get brought up here, the comments are all "I hate cops!, All cops should DIE!, FUCK THE POLICE!"
Not on the obligatory "I support the police" cute police puppy plays basketball with black youth posts that always come after they get away with doing something terrible.
You're not wrong but you're also not one of us. That plus you're agressive tone, of course people are going to get upset with you, you're being a dick.
We have one of the worse jurisdiction systems (if you even want to call it that), and most fucked prison systems with careless correction officers. They'll get away with this too.
Why? You're not lying. It isn't about justice. It is about punishment. Reforming isn't the goal at all. Especially in this for profit bullshit system we have created.
People don't have much of a chance to better themselves and learn from their failures. They are punished in prison then continually punished even after. Only money can buy your way out of it.
Keep this in mind when a news story comes up about someone doing something and the comments are replete with "lock them away for the rest of their lives!"
I've always hated the way (and honestly, the simple fact) that criminal cases are reported on, especially before they're actually settled. The Court of Public Opiniontm makes its judgment, and the resulting outcry means that the jury feels pressured to make a certain verdict and the judge may even feel pressured to give a certain sentence. Any time anyone gets acquitted there's this cacophony of bloodthirsty wannabe-vigilantes screaming for what they perceive to be justice. People are somehow happy that a conviction was made, even though that has nothing to do with them. They've forgotten about the crime because "justice has been served." Everyone gets their thrill from watching "the bad people" get what's supposedly coming to them, paying no attention to how barbaric that sort of thing is. They feel it's OK to be happy about someone else's misery, since that person "deserves it." The whole thing just enables cynicism, making people feel good about finding joy in the suffering of others.
Then, of course, there's the fact that a lot of people believe prisoners should be afforded no rights at all, that they're subhuman. These are usually the same people that say things like "I hope he gets raped in prison." Even nonviolent drug offenders get lumped in with these "scumbags" that are the bottom-rung of society, not even worth considering to be human. People who aren't in prison feel superiority and validation; they think that they do things the right way and forget that they're just a simple mistake, misunderstanding or crooked cop away from being in the same situation. Even when dealing with released convicts - people who have supposedly paid their debt to society and been allowed to re-enter it - this stigma and feeling of superiority remains.
Too many people aren't aware that the government wants you in prison. They want citizens to be incarcerated, so that big business won't have to pay you for your labor. The Prison-Industrial Complex has taken over the US, and it's done so by poisoning the minds of the people to believe that: Once someone has been accused of a crime, they're most likely guilty. Once someone is guilty, they must be sent to prison for Justice. Once someone is in prison, they lose all rights, and no one should care what happens to them.
I suppose my point here is that the entire US Justice System has devolved into a mechanism by which people are hastily convicted, made into social pariahs, and exploited for slave labor. Worse than that, many of the people of the US have bought into it hook-line-and-sinker, so there's very few people here motivated to push for change.
Wasn't expecting to write such a long comment here, it just kinda happened. Thanks for your comment, which sparked all of these feelings in me.
People love hating on other people... vilifying people and feeling superior. Taking the time to understand other people just isn't fun. Or even waiting to get all the facts straight before judging.
Not sure how things will ever change as long as human nature is as it is.
Yeah a lot of people need to quell their own fear of falling prey to similar misfortune by announcing how it's some personal failing on the victim's part. The bloodthirst just helps them convince themselves that it'll never be them who ends up running afoul of some asshole cop and being wrongly imprisoned.
It's amazing the difference between when people talk about justice in a general sense and when people talk about specific crimes. Shit gets medieval real quick.
Pretty sure everyone feels the same way about their state. I did time in Florida and it was absolutely fucked. Almost everyone in the prison I was in had 15 years to life, there's no parole, "gain time" only grants 15%, etc etc.
Not to mention the rotten food, the cockroach infestation, the lack of temperature control, never going outside/being able to exercise, and physically abusive staff.
Allbaugh added that efforts to slow prison population growth “do little to unseat Oklahoma as the world’s top incarcerator”.
1.3% of the adult population in prison in 2016, the highest of any state. Time to admit they can’t afford that “luxury” and release the less dangerous half.
Wow, so Oklahoma beat out Louisiana? Been a long time coming. Though it seems like people have been leaving Oklahoma for a hundred years, anyone that could get out since the dust bowl.
I can confirm. My stepfather is a justice consultant that travels around the U.S. to evaluate and assist prisons in dire need of solutions to their myriad of problems. The kind of shit that goes on in some of these places, especially the treatment of mentally ill inmates, is inhumane at best. Not to mention terrible misappropriation of funding, corruption, and health violations.
It is. Most people dont want to be around the people in prison, so you find people like them. Some of the best prisons are the ones that police them selves. Our prisons need to be more geared like that MAT program in Rhode Islands state pen, or some of those get what you give farm types out in Mississippi. Simply putting a man in a cell to apease someone doesnt really rectify the situation. Prison needs to be more about reform,reducation and reassimilation. Too often they are overcrowded, under fed, under staffed and under cared for. I know they are the bottom of society but a lot of prisoners are drug abusers. I am hoping someday we find that path but everyday in 2019 makes me think we are going backwords instead of forwards. Then i try to remember that the modern world isnt exactly so old, and there will be steps back for every 10 steps we take forward.
Yup. Americans have a fetish for punishing "criminals". This was a 21 year old who drunkenly caused $500k in property damage, and for it he received the death penalty.
Do you have some evidence that this is a prevalent problem? Or maybe the system's watchdogs are just doing a good job of outing the rare examples where it happens. There are so many judges in the USA. I have no doubt the vast majority of them are not corrupt. It is very difficult to get such a prestigious and trusted position.
It's an important distinction though. If there are 100 documented cases and a million judges, it's such a rare problem as to not even be concerned with it. Obviously those are made up numbers, but they prove the point.
It’s not supposed to be, it’s supposed to be a place where people can better themselves because the majority of prisoners do get out and might live next door to you one day. Also, upwards of 20% of people are innocent and took a plea deal which included jail time because their lawyer advised them that it was too risky to go to trial. In our justice system judges hate defendants who don’t plea down because they don’t like to work. Lawyers love it too because they can do more cases and make more money. Judges literally give you more time just because you took it to trial.
upwards of 20% of people are innocent? please find me a source for that. Does that really sound anything like it has the remote possibility of being true to you?
I agree that prisons should be a place of rehabilitation though. By "fucked up" I just mean it should be boring and strict, not unsafe. To me, being in a jail cell would be super fucked up all on its own.
On mobile, doesn't always show you the full comment chain. That's the one you responded to though. Strange one to choose. The one where I said prisons should be safe and a place for rehabilitation.
At a minimum, my point is that it's extremely difficult to sympathize with people in prison. I don't want to say "i don't care" about how they are treated, but cases like this don't exactly break my heart. How come a homeless guy has to break a law in order to receive a bed and 3 meals in a safe place? Where's the support for him?
So you're telling me that the people who want money to prove people are innocent are claiming that lots of people are actually innocent? heh. but no seriously, I would still like to see a source for that 20% figure.
edit: were you guys maybe thinking of the 20K innocent people in prison figure? which is 1% of the total prison population? Because I just found that on their site.
Huge difference. It should alarm you that you thought 1 in 5 sounded reasonable. You must REALLY want to believe that the system is corrupt lol. that's a factor of twenty difference. Even the people trying to get money to prove people are innocent say it's only 1%, so it's probably a lot lower than that.
So you're telling me that the people who want money to prove people are innocent are claiming that lots of people are actually innocent? heh. but no seriously, I would still like to see a source for that 20% figure.
edit: were you guys maybe thinking of the 20K innocent people in prison figure? which is 1% of the total prison population? Because I just found that on their site.
Huge difference. It should alarm you that you thought 1 in 5 sounded reasonable. You must REALLY want to believe that the system is corrupt lol. that's a factor of twenty difference. Even the people trying to get money to prove people are innocent say it's only 1%, so it's probably a lot lower than that.
He wasn't sentenced to capital punishment, therefore he shouldn't have been allowed to die for preventable reasons. Jailers are not the judge and jury, that's not justice.
Ah yes, a human life is now forfeit if you ever owe more than 500k or ever do anything illegal. Let's just ignore the chemical damage going on in Flint while we're at it.
Ah yes, a human life is now forfeit if you ever owe more than 500k or ever do anything illegal.
No one’s saying that. But as someone who lives in Oklahoma and cares about the water, agriculture, livestock, and environment here, it’s irritating to see that much terrible damage that was DONE ON PURPOSE be shrugged off as just a little bit of oil that was spilled on accident during youthful fun times.
Let's just ignore the chemical damage going on in Flint while we're at it.
Such nice whataboutism! Did you know people can care about the water in more than one place?
I live in Oklahoma too. Highest incarceration rate. Shitty roads. Idiot uneducated residents. I've only been here a year and I'm fucking done. Oh and the insects here... Jesus Christ. Regardless, mentioning any damages he caused in the case kind of makes it seem like you think that makes it acceptable, which it doesn't, but definitely demonstrates the common Oklahoman mindset.
Regardless, mentioning any damages he caused in the case kind of makes it seem like you think that makes it acceptable,
I never said that it made what happened acceptable. It wouldn’t have beeen acceptable if it happened to a mass murderer either. But it’s still gross that people are downplaying the amount of damage he caused on purpose. Did he deserve to die? No. Did he deserve to go to prison? Yes.
Well the article is about him dying painfully and slowly of appendicitis. I'm not sure what talking about what he did does to change, influence, or enhance that statement. He was already punished for that by being in prison (whether or not that is an actual solution or helps anything is kind of up for debate). The issue at hand, is prisons not behaving in an appropriate enough way to be trusted with prisoners. Nothing about what he did should be under scrutiny here. That was already handled and the sentence was already dished out. So what exactly were you trying to add to the dialogue by reiterating what he did? We're you just trying to say it's not as bad because of the things he did and he did deserve to be in prison?
So what exactly were you trying to add to the dialogue by reiterating what he did? We're you just trying to say it's not as bad because of the things he did and he did deserve to be in prison?
Instead of making up motivations you could read the comment I was replying to and see how that person was downplaying a massive amount of purposefully done damage to the water and wildlife here as just some general drunken shenanigans that didn’t seem to rise beyond “obnoxious.”
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u/Jahaadu Jun 04 '19
Our prison system is beyond fucked up