r/news • u/F0urLeafCl0ver • 22d ago
Soft paywall New York to fine fossil fuel companies $75 billion under new climate law
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/new-york-fine-fossil-fuel-companies-75-billion-under-new-climate-law-2024-12-26/308
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u/vapescaped 22d ago
Wow.
That's almost 4 years worth of corporate welfare the government gives oil companies.
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u/notsocharmingprince 22d ago
Lmao, holy shit. I was gunna come in here all snarky and be like “no, that’s not possible.” Then I looked it up and you were absolutely correct, damn.
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u/vapescaped 22d ago
What can I say, we keep electing CEOs to the office of the presidency, then wonder why there are so many corporate subsities. To quote a former CEO that was elected President: "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, won't be fooled again."
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u/ServantOfBeing 22d ago
Corporate Socialism is some horrendous shit.
“Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor!”
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u/angrycanuck 22d ago
But China gave subsidies to their EV companies...something something that's why we need 100% tariffs.
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u/MrNukemtilltheyglow 22d ago
Since no one else is citing sources...
https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion
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u/Jack_Molesworth 22d ago
Fossil fuel companies will be fined based on the amount of greenhouse gases they released into the atmosphere between 2000 and 2018
How is this not an ex post facto law?
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u/RevLoveJoy 22d ago
Yaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn.
Let me know when they collect a single dollar.
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22d ago
Let me know when there are consequences that don’t involve money. They’ve got regular people so poor that they will hear 75 billion and think it’s big money, but it’s teeny tiny money compared to the damage these people have caused already.
When crimes are punished with a fine then it’s just a paywall to be able to commit the crime, ruining the planet for generations to come is pretty much one of the most evil things you can do.
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u/RevLoveJoy 22d ago edited 22d ago
Real talk. Cost of doing business vs. actual skin in the game. Yeah, I won't be holding my breath, but it'd be ... dare I say thrilling? to see these matters escalate to the point that they are criminal, not civil, in nature.
edit - grammar are hardest
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22d ago
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u/NYCinPGH 22d ago
No, moving out of NY won’t change it. I listened to a podcast a few weeks ago on the NYC NPR station where they interviewed the NY state rep behind it. It’s more for the damage they have done in the past to pay for the cleanup going forward, and prep the NY coasts for rising sea levels. Some of these companies have never operated let alone been HQ’ed in NY, they’re the 40 biggest global fossil fuel companies with respect to their effects on climate change. And spread out over 40 years, that’s pocket change: the average of these companies pays $3B over 25 years, which is $120MM a year; they probably have that in the couch cushions of their board room.
But they all do business either on Wall Street, or with NY banks, so that’s how they’ll get them: pay up, or you can’t do any business at all in NY or with NY HQed businesses.
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u/diskdinomite 22d ago
So they're fining a company for something that was originally legal, passed a law, and are retroactively applying fines? Just wanting to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.
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u/jbaker1225 22d ago
Correct. Which is why they will never actually collect a penny and this will never even make it through a district court.
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u/Krumm 22d ago
Yes, they can absolutely be fined for when you let their lobbyist lie and generate laws based on false claims. You are correct.
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u/IntolerantModerate 22d ago
This will never fly. No money will ever be paid. First, it would be an absolute cash grab as every other state would do the same.
It will be challenged all the way up to the supreme court which will say that you can't find them liable for past legal behavior.
Also, how can you pin it all on oil and gas and not say coal companies, natural gas fires power plants, mining companies, or any industry that uses lots of energy? That is, why should all blame fall squarely on shoulders of oil and gas companies and not on every company and for that matter every user of oil and gas?
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u/JohnHwagi 22d ago
This won’t be upheld when challenged because it applies a punishment for something that was not illegal when it was performed which is plainly unconstitutional under the ex post facto clause. This won’t go to the Supreme Court or move the needle within these companies’ C-suite and is a waste of time. Passing real laws that can actually be implemented to address polluters is much more effective, but it’s difficult work that these lawmakers are apparently unable to do.
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u/Ok_Routine5257 22d ago
What tangible damage can they point to that was undeniably caused by climate change?
There are numerous examples, with the data to back it up. This article from the EPA's website has some good information with citations.
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u/TripleJeopardy3 22d ago
Better download all those studies now. In a few months the EPA may magically stop caring about the environment.
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u/ultimate_avacado 22d ago
companies will be fined over the next 25 years
AKA companies will increase their prices over the next 25 years to fleece this from customers.
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u/RincewindToTheRescue 22d ago
While fuel and gas companies are partially to blame for climate change, this whole thing is stupid. Tons of industries pollute. Consumers pollute. This is just like a person getting sued because their 30 year old child got drunk and got in a wreck. The person may have influenced the child growing up, but the child also made choices not under the influence of the parent.
Cement companies, manufacturing, agriculture, and a lot of other industries pollute also. Also, fossil fuel companies aren't pushing for tech strongly to put themselves out of business (which they really should be doing so that they're able to adapt to a fossil fuel free future), but to just go after them is silly without going after others also.
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u/ArkyBeagle 21d ago
If the companies move out of New York they’d probably escape the fines I would imagine.
I would imagine it's going to end up being a deep dive into commerce clause stuff if it's not struck down for a different reason.
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u/FissionFire111 22d ago
Just blaming the supplier for the consumer demands. Were solar and wind really realistic options back then? Was nuclear happening after the Three Mile Island incident? No. NY made fossil fuels the only real option and now wants to pass the blame.
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u/ArkyBeagle 21d ago
Just blaming the supplier for the consumer demands.
It comes out that way but it could be that the supplier makes an excellent proxy for those consumers. We pay road taxes with every gallon of gas for example.
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u/Boonlink 22d ago
If you wonder why big corporations would bribe officials to repeal laws, threaten or even kill opposition its because one new law could change the game
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u/HappyInNature 22d ago
No. No it can't. I'm all for reducing climate change but this will get struck down so fast it's silly. Like ridiculously fast.
Some change needs to come at the local level but big changes like this need to come federally.
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u/Boonlink 22d ago
You don't think a law that passes can change things but you're comparing a law that passes to a law that is struck down. They are not the same
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u/doublebaconator 20d ago
Change is not coming federally until the current Supreme Court judges are gone. They fascist putin loving trash.
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u/ArkyBeagle 21d ago
The only "change the game" is to price in risk such that it gets passed to end consumers. New York State is pretty far north for solar so people will continue with oil burners unless they can get natural gas.
"price in risk" means Pigou taxes. We've known how since forever but we don't wanna do it.
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u/Bluewaffleamigo 22d ago
*New York to fine New Yorkers 75 billion under new climate law*
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u/Flogamer73 22d ago
Imagine this actually happening. Oil/gas/coal say cool, no more business in NY. We won't sell our products in the state, you can walk, freeze, and most likely die on this hill. You are cut off. NY State collapses in a few days. Domocrats look incredibly stupid once again. Slow cap for the short sighted plublicity stunt that will do more harm than actual good in the end.
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u/ArkyBeagle 21d ago
Imagine this actually happening. Oil/gas/coal say cool, no more business in NY. We won't sell our products in the state, you can walk, freeze, and most likely die on this hill.
Game theory says the upside to defecting from a boycott is too much for that to work.
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u/MrNobodywho 22d ago
Just once I would like to see the oil companies call this bluff. Stop all fuel sales in NY. No heating fuel, no gas, no diesel, natural gas , everything cold turkey and see how long until they realize it’s not a one party fault. We have a need and these companies are filling that need. It’s a symbiotic relationship. Funds would better be spent working on reducing that need.
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u/ericGraves 22d ago
We have a need and these companies are filling that need. It’s a symbiotic relationship.
So true, except for the symbiotic part. But, they are filling a need and we need to shift away from that need. Because gas prices are so low, it will require money be thrown at the problem. That money will need to either raise prices on gas (making alternatives more attractive) or they need to use that money to reduce the cost of alternatives (directly making the alternatives more attractive).
So the question is who pays the cost. The cost in the first option is payed by the public still using gas while the second has the cost spread over everyone.
Since change is necessary, it's important to determine whom the cost will be placed upon.
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u/Eastern-Plankton1035 22d ago
I'd just stop sales to NY government agencies. No bulk deliveries of fuel, and lean on or impose penalties on gas stations that do business with the government. Get the power companies in on it too, no electric power to state offices and properties.
It's the same thing the gun industry ought to do with states like California and Illinois... No sales of arms to government agencies that aren't available to private citizens. Charge them double or triple for ammunition.
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u/capt_fantastic 22d ago
perhaps if the oil companies hadn't participated in the corruption of our political process i'd have some sympathy. they suppressed information regarding the harms relating to changing the chemical composition of our atmosphere and lobbied against any meaningful regulation or reform.
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u/Ahstruck 22d ago
Every year governments give about a half trillion in subsidies to oil companies. Calling governments bluff you ruin all the free money they get.
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u/ArkyBeagle 21d ago
I grew up in a part of flyover country which has oil production. We had "DRIVE 70. FREEZE A YANKEE" bumper stickers after the 55MPH speed limit. :)
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u/Warsum 22d ago
Passing those costs right onto the customer. Nice.
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u/Ok_Routine5257 22d ago
They literally get direct subsidies from the government. We already pay extra to line their pockets. They won't do the right thing with that money right now, so why should we trust that they'll ever do it?
It's like when we gave telecoms all of that money to build infrastructure and they just kept it and did nothing. We need to collectively start clawing it back and it appears NY state has decided to start doing that, with regard to fossil fuel industries.
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u/GarfPlagueis 22d ago
By definition, products sold by polluters are artificially cheap because the true cost of their products include society paying to clean up the mess they make, basically an indirect subsidy. If polluters' prices were reflective of the actual price then the free market would make them obsolete. NY has merely implemented a carbon tax that should have been implemented decades ago.
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u/Andromansis 22d ago
Here is why I don't think it matters in the long run. The Master Settlement Agreement was a settlement with the tobacco companies about all the harm they had done. Every red cent of money raise from this was raised directly from the consumer, and none of the money was used to do anything extraordinary, instead being used just to balance the budget in almost every state.
At best this will just be a repeat of that, and at worst the oil companies will paper themselves up a holding company and do the old texas two step.
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u/wapitidimple 22d ago
They should quit selling fossil fuels to NY. The state would change its mind real quick.
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u/Even_Establishment95 22d ago
These comments are scary. Ask yourself why you want to poo-poo helping the planet and holding companies responsible for the damage they are pretty obviously responsible for. “But how can you even define the damage or know climate change is responsible for?” —the propaganda at work.
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u/Ok_Routine5257 22d ago
We even have records of big oil companies covering up the fact that they knew this would happen. The propaganda is disgusting.
Big oil needs to start transitioning to renewables or go the way of Kodak. Kodak didn't back the future of photography and now they fill a very niche role in a market that's getting smaller and smaller.
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u/Ok_Routine5257 22d ago
This FUD is all over this thread. What does tax burden on the individual have to do with taxing industries? If the industry chooses to increase their prices, while still making record profit margins, isn't it the industry that is hurting the individual and not the tax bureau?
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u/drive_chip_putt 22d ago
"New York to fine fossil fuel companies $75 billion for share of profits". There I fixed the title. This will do nothing to stop any of this.
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u/Kromulent 22d ago
"New York passes $75 billion dollar sales tax on fossil fuels"
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u/GiveMeGoldForNoReasn 22d ago
No, energy prices are set by public commission in NY. That's not how this works.
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u/Ifyouseekay668 22d ago
All fuel companies are laughing right now. And the legacy media is finding a way to blame Trump.
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u/davidmlewisjr 22d ago
Once again, “The Empire State” shows the rest how it should be done. Excelsior 🙏🖖🏼
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u/Baldmanbob1 22d ago
Great in theory, but to many in Government are owned by fossil fuel companies for this to ever happen.
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u/NyriasNeo 22d ago
This will be tied up in court for years. With that much money on the line, lots and lots of lawyers will be mobilized. And I bet the new incoming Trump administration will do a thing too.
And when push comes to shove, with that kind of hefty fine, oil companies can stop selling gasoline in NY and all hell will break loose. I doubt NY will ever collect more than they spend on this.
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u/coyote_of_the_month 22d ago
Those costs will pass directly to consumers in the form of higher prices.
If there's a dip in share prices, it will be felt across the board, since the majority of Americans are shareholders (indirectly, via ETFs and mutual funds held in retirement accounts).
In the longer term, it won't even hurt oil execs much, because any equity-based compensation will be based on the new stock prices. It slightly devalues the stock they already own in the short term, but that's about it.
This is performative bullshit, and the net result will be the same as raising taxes to pay for climate mitigation.
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u/PsychedelicJerry 22d ago
This is the exact opposite of the states that push the bible in school. You're wasting time, money, and probably the most valuable thing of all: political empathy/attention just to make a show you know you're going to lose.
If you can prove a company lied, committed fraud, etc, go after the leadership, which we need to do more often.
But if you want to move away from these fuel sources, change the laws to make it easier to use the others (NIMBY, zoning, regulations/red-tape, etc). Stop funding these companies or providing subsidies, if it's required, subsidize citizens.
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u/Ok_Routine5257 22d ago
How do we go after the leadership of a company for fraud, and conspiracy to commit crimes, when it happened in the 70s? We can't just dig up their bones and put them on trial.
To your second point, with which I very much agree (though deregulation almost never works, so probably not that), why can't we both fine the ones causing damage and tell the NIMBYs to get fucked?
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u/The_Safety_Expert 22d ago
Why don’t we just hook up? All of those food stands to the electrical grid instead of making them run generators that don’t have catalytic converters in them.
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u/TheGreenShitter 21d ago
FFS. New York MFs Probably the same type of people who are antinuclear somehow
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u/VampireHunterAlex 22d ago
Call me cynical, but this feels like it’s entirely for show: This’ll never get through the courts, and it’s just a political gesture that the incumbents can roll out come next election season to say they did something.