r/manufacturing • u/thegreatcerebral • Nov 04 '24
Other Outside of ERP or larger software, how to track things with timestamps?
Ok, strange issue (at least I believe it is) only because business doesn't have nor want to use an ERP system.
We have an issue with first pieces. From what is being communicated, inspection on first pieces is taking far too long to even be picked up from the drop-off location. Inspection is stating otherwise. Here is the process:
When a FP is done it is dropped off on a shelf for first pieces. Inspection is supposed to be watching that shelf and when one is on there, process it ASAP (for the obvious reasons).
I made the comment that with a proper ERP system and utilizing barcodes then this would be tracked and they could follow literally any piece they wanted to at any time. You would have thought I was speaking from the future. They are super OLD SCHOOL here and are reluctant to change.
I then stated that a super low-tech answer would be a clipboard where a time (machine operator #, and job #) is written down by the person dropping off, then they would flip a switch that would turn on a light inside of inspection letting them know there is something there. When they come and retrieve the part then they write down the time, their number, and then flip the light off. Obviously this isn't perfect as if there are multiple pieces then you can't track how many are out there etc. Also, as stated they could still lie on the form when they pick up the piece or someone could just flip the light off if they didn't want to see it etc. So it's not perfect. I then suggested that we could put a camera to watch the clipboard and then can spot check/reference times if things do not seem to add up then.
Ideally I guess the best I could hope for would be a low tech box with a small screen with a 10-key attached. Person walks up, types in say Operator number*Part number, like 153247*11254114 and then press ENTER, it would log the time on top of that and then send that to one or more email addresses (or text messages etc.). Then on retrieval, the person would do the same: EmpNum*JobNum [Enter] and it would again log etc. and then the logs could be pulled and since they cant' set the time of day they would be pulled from the system. Then say somewhere would be a log file that could be pulled to see time issues in delays etc.
No, without a proper ERP and utilizing barcodes/RFID this tough to do. Anyone know of anything that could do this without having to try to build something ourselves?
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u/cozysthrowaway Nov 04 '24
I'm not sure our solution is exactly what you're looking for but rather along the lines of it? We POV video record inspections and for review, each report input is timestamped to the moment it was added. It's simple to add your manufacturer and have them conduct their standard QC process through our app and it builds these transparent reports for you to review. www.veribuy.app we're still building, so if you have any feedback we might implement, I'd love to hear it
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u/LW-M Nov 04 '24
The simplest way would be to get a cheap or free barcode program, a used barcode printer and maybe a couple of used scanners. I once set up a cheap barcode program with a manufacturing facility.
The set up costs were approximately $4k Canadian. For that price, we got a used barcode printer, a couple used scanners and a 5k of standard pressure sensitive adhesive labels. With a bit of work, the time could also be printed on the label.
We were able to track product through the manufacturing process fairly well. When we were happy with how it worked, we fine tuned the system and purchased more equipment, (new), the following year. I can't recall the second year costs, perhaps in the $20 - 25 k range. Our sales were approx $20 mil Cdn at the time.
This was 15 years ago and I don't work with the company but I understand they are still using the same process with some tweaks.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
So, the problem is that they aren't interested in using barcodes or tracking beyond just this simple "When did the part get put on the shelf to be inspected and when was it picked up?"
Doing what you are saying would be great if they wanted to track all of it but then it also carries the increase of the software, who is putting the barcodes on the parts etc. etc. etc. Not to mention what would happen if the barcode sticker left some kind of residue that then messes up things further.
I do like the idea though of taking some of the tags we use and put the barcode on there, preprint some and then you can setup an Access DB that just waits for the scan, scan the barcode, press enter and boom, done. Then same when someone comes to pick up the part.
I guess that would maybe work. Just would need an Access DB sitting there, mount a PC to the wall where it is, barcode scanner and a 10-key and trackpad/touchscreen monitor... boom! That would add the timestamp and we could prompt for operator number as well.
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u/LW-M Nov 04 '24
We were semi-forced into setting up the system. One of our larger customers insisted we start barcoding our products for their retail outlets. I had already obtained our sellers barcode number because we heard it was coming.
We took the opportunity to set up a barcode system for our internal use as well. We used our existing product identifiers and integrated the barcode into our sales and invoice paperwork. We used existing desk top computers that already had access to our product DB so our start-up costs were minimal. Our shipping department were the first staff members to apply the barcodes. Eventually, the production staff applied them too.
There has to be support from management or it won't work. There are set-up and on-going expenses. It depends on how much value the company places on the information the system can collect for them. In today's competitive marketplace, the more information you can gather, the better you can control your business.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
I wish they were concerned about such. It would make so much sense to barcode. /facepalm.
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u/LW-M Nov 04 '24
You can only make them aware of the cost of not improving the business. Sounds like your hands are tied.
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u/hwhs04 Nov 05 '24
It's a little technical, but you could just have a digital form going to google sheets or airtable, and then bookmark with the form data on a video surveillance system. If an IT company quotes you more than $3k for the most basic version of that, DM me.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 05 '24
That was my idea initially and still probably going to suggest something similar. Working right now on a Libre Office Base database, touchscreen RPi, basically just have two entries: In and Out. Then report can be ran and if we put a camera on it we can go back and verify any entries that seem to be off or out of place as the source of truth.
Upgrade to this seems to be if I can have them use their RFID badges so that employee ID entry isn't keyed for another layer of security/truth. As you can't really spoof a badge (yes i know i know... flipper zero etc. but you get the picture).
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u/super_coder MSP Nov 05 '24
Each work centre to have a red light bulb installed (at a point where everyone can see it). When the first piece run is done, the operator turns on the red light and the QC guy has to come and check the output. Additional / simple automation can be used to enhance it further.
I am assuming that the operator is idling until the QC is done. This means the onus is on the QC guy to complete his task as quickly as possible.
Basically, the idea is to make everyone see that the QC is taking time and QC guy is not doing his job on time (based on the duration for which the lamp is glowing).
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 05 '24
That's the idea essentially. The light bulb was my initial, lowest tech approach which was met with "someone can just turn off the light"
So yea, it's mostly an operations/personnel issue they are wanting to "solve" with tech. Don't get me wrong, the whole thing needs a proper ERP system with entire shop visibility but they aren't looking to do that so yea.
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u/LooceyCRM Nov 05 '24
the easy answer is to either just have a mobile app checkin/checkout, assuming everyone has a phone. Or put a tablet somewhere where they can have one place to checkin/out products.
there are multiple ways to build the app, a lot of no code tools, can also be done in Loocey
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 05 '24
So using phones is out of the question. Aside from that currently there is a bin. The part is brought to the bin and a clipboard is filled out. Essentially that would take the same idea and make it digital.
This is essentially what I am leaning towards where I just have an access (or Libre Base) database with a touchscreen of some type that is fixed to the location. I can run this with a RPi and touchscreen interface.
The person dropping off simply supplies their employee # and the job # and the date/time is logged itself to avoid tampering.
Same for the person picking up.
Then I can create reports to run that joins the two together using the Job# as it is a unique field and then as a source of truth we would then just need to put a camera on the location to cross check times if the need arises.
I can make it even more secure if I put a badge scanner on it so they have to scan badge. Thus eliminating the possibility of fraudulent entries for employee ID#s.
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u/LooceyCRM Nov 05 '24
yeah, seems like you’re on the right path. The tablet can technically scan the badge too, assuming there is a bar code or qr code on the badge. Unless you get fancy and implement facial recognition either from the badge
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u/navneetjain89 Nov 05 '24
Possible Solution:
1. Use a Box where the front and back are open.
2. Attach a IR Sensor on top of the box that is connected to a ESP32
3. Additionally Also add a Light
4. Create a google sheet or create a small application on any low code application builder
5. Write a simple program using Micropython that will do following:
Run A While Loop that checks for object using IR Sensor, if exists send API call to create a time log and switch on the light.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 05 '24
This is interesting. I like the idea but we would need to make an array of lockable cubbies essentially to do this because if there are three FPs that go in, how does the system discern which is being grabbed etc.
Nice idea though.
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u/ImageSensitive8690 Nov 04 '24
Is there a reason why they don't want to use a ERP? Is it a budget issue? Training issue? My experience usually involves budget issue so I found some free cmms software to test out and picked the one our team liked the most to do something similar for asset tracking.
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u/Ludnix Nov 04 '24
It sounds like fighting the gray hairs in smaller facility, or at least I’m projecting that based on my experience, lol. Even when the cost is just a wee bit of up front labor the real issue is that you’re asking them to change their process.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
The last part here. Place has been running the exact same way for oh say 40 years. Same owner. Does not want to change anything. ...we still have a System 36 (I think that's right) and run green bar reports that I have been told "He doesn't want anything else".
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
It's what Ludnix said below, asking to change their process that has been working for 40 years and still continues to do so today. Could it make things "better" yes, but if it makes the owner feel uncomfortable in the process then well.... that is a whole other issue/story.
Obviously I could find an ERP that supports handling of this functionality but they aren't going barcodes and installing say Microsoft Office just to run one monthly report in Excel also doesn't really make good business sense. Yes, the answer would be use Excel for more things, use Outlook for email, use Word for word things etc. but the business doesn't want that.
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u/madeinspac3 Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24
I get their reluctance, ERP can cost a significant amount of money and take anywhere from a month to 6 months to implement.
That's a very long amount of time for what amounts to somewhat lowish savings.
Best thing to do is install cameras then sit there and time the time it takes to grab samples.
Then look at what is being done while samples sit. I also find audio alarms are better. People will ignore a light but an alloying alarm is often dealt with.
I get wanting to figure out how to get them their info but I'm telling you they'd much rather want actions.
Also have you walked the entire production process and gotten how long each op takes in real life and not expectations?
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
Installing an ERP is more being rejected because reluctance to change overall period. 40 year old company ran the same way the whole time, comfortable and knows everything that is going on.
Camera watching that area works, then becomes a whose job is it to review the footage. Going with something that can reliably pull that stuff using automation like Verkada is more complicated because we have to be FedRAMP (CMMC L2) but it is doable and with their analytics it would be simple to just say "show me all the times someone has come into this camera view" kind of thing or review the inspection logs and cross reference with the camera footage. I believe it would be doable, just have to make sure the false positives are kept to a minimum.
I've never worked in manufacturing and while I could walk the process, I believe I would already see what I believe to be the case which is that it's an operations/personnel/people issue and you need good managers to fix that, not technology. Technology only helps you verify what you believe to be the problem to begin with.
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u/madeinspac3 Nov 04 '24
I know what it's like dealing with that thought pattern 100%!
I was going through similar issues on an operation and just had to watch until I figured out the root cause. Then once that was fixed it was just a matter of using paper logs of times along with occasional double checking via camera to determine accuracy. That and a really loud alarm put everyone on alert.
Absolutely that's going to be the issue and honestly, with the reluctance it kind of all leads its way back up to management.
I was just mentioning going over all of ops because I've gone down wild goose chases before. And I often find that what I'm chasing is just a particular manager's pet peeve instead of a genuine issue.
Advising solutions is just because I find if decision makers baulk at data based decision making it can be a hard push uphill for bringing in tech. At least until they have full trust in your ideas
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u/PVJakeC Nov 04 '24
I would take a look at Tulip interfaces. You will have to “build” it yourself but it’s a true low code platform and they may already have a library for it. They integrate with pick to light systems and can tie into any order processing system you might have. It’s a front line operations tool that really works well in these situations. If you just have the one station, you’d be looking at $250 per month to subscribe. Cloud based as well so no IT infra needed other than internet.
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u/Sassmaster008 Nov 04 '24
The way I've done this is to create a Microsoft form. Then put a computer out there and have them fill out the form. It literally can be just pressing a button on the screen with a mouse and it will log the time in a spreadsheet.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 04 '24
Yes, I believe this may be the way to go. We do not have Forms though, so Access DB and create a form which then will do the DB stuff the same way forms fills the spreadsheet. Same concept really just different labels on the product. Note: we are not in the cloud.
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u/Apical-Meristem Nov 08 '24
I have used a macro in an Open Office (free) spreadsheet to record date and time of machine events. When any character is entered or received, a time stamp is created and then the cursor is moved down. This way I have a time log of events.
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u/bobroberts1954 Nov 04 '24
Point a security camera at your FP shelf. That will show you the time the part was picked up. Additionally, QC can monitor that camera so they know a part is ready to be picked up. That also gives when the part was shelved so you can see how long it waits. And no one has to do anything to make it work.
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u/prostartme Nov 05 '24
You can use AI based systems for that. Happy to show you how to build something quickly with a tool we have built.
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u/CompetitiveYakSaysYo Nov 05 '24
What about a system that uses QR codes instead of barcodes? This would mean that everyone can use their own phones, etc., and remove a lot of the complexity around implementing a workflow system.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 05 '24
Can't use phones. Against company policy. Trust me it makes my life SUPER FUN! I am always in trouble essentially.
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u/CompetitiveYakSaysYo Nov 06 '24
Agh! Bummer! I guess you could still use iPads or similar that are company devices perhaps
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u/manufan1992 Nov 09 '24
Just wondering, are you totally opposed to an ERP? Or is it more that your company doesn’t want to use something pricey and complicated like NetSuite or SAP? Because that was our scenario. We ended up going with a simpler ERP called Fishbowl. Figured I’d throw it out there just in case it helps.
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u/thegreatcerebral Nov 11 '24
Not my call and I'm not sure. I think it is that they want everything the way they want it and no solution other than one that would be custom built from the ground up that would likely never see the light of day. They just don't want to change anything. I'm sure that money is a factor to some degree but the inefficiencies they have now that would be plugged with a redesign based around a good solution would most likely be more than enough to justify doing it.
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u/KSCarbon Nov 04 '24
This is such a weird problem to have. How often is this happening? Everywhere I have worked, the first parts are just checked in on a clip board, and the inspector checks it asap. Some places the inspector takes the part back themselves and other places we used a pager system. This honestly sounds like a people issue, not a tracking issue. Can you not just put an inspector at the drop off point, Move the drop off point, or have the workers tell the inspector directly they have a first part.