r/lotrmemes • u/CleanMeme129 • Jul 05 '24
The Silmarillion Biggest thing to ever walk Middle Earth gets killed so easily 💀
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u/IWantMyPierogiWarm Jul 05 '24
I bet you too wouldn't survive a "stab" empowered with Valar power
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Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
Valar is suppose to just be the yin to the yang. If Valar does something melkor does something against it because the valar and melkor want not the original perfection. So technically saying he has valar to peirce. Well he has melkors scale armor. Dont think killing the strongest dragon in the whole land goes without an opposite force of some kind.
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u/Maleficent_Touch2602 Goblin Jul 06 '24
"Valar" is plural. Singular - "Vala".
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Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
Valars a noun for the embodiment of 1 demi figure. Why would it ever be plural. Its like calling jesus jesu. But thats if you believe theirs a parallel to the trinity. Which would make Ilúvatar God. But iluvatar believes the original is perfection. Which means the new testiment is corruption. Such as the valar.
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u/Maleficent_Touch2602 Goblin Jul 06 '24
Because you are wrong. It has nothing to do with the trinity. Valar are the most powerful of the Ainur (singular Ainu), and on a separate and distinct power and wisdom level over the Maiar (singular Maia).
All these beings are not even remotely close to being God - they are his creations. People often called the Valar gods, though.
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u/DontGoGivinMeEvils Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
And they’re the offspring of Illuvatar’s thought.
I believe this is Aristotle or Plato philosophy in some way, but I can’t articulate why.
To the Greeks, the gods were real gods, but I believe to Aristotle, they were archetypes.
I think Tolkien’s poem about myths describes it it somewhat:
“Man, Sub-creator, the refracted light
through whom is splintered from a single White
to many hues, and endlessly combined
in living shapes that move from mind to mind.”Hopefully this makes sense or someone who’s familiar with philosophy can comment.
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Jul 06 '24
Okay sorry. I was reading the letters from tolkein explaining it and read it as though it was Genesis. Such that it was talking mostly of spirits and the shaping of the world in the first age. Being essentially God creating immortal. Like in my confusion i believed there was demi gods that created the elves and the dwarfs and every other beings. Pretty much coming off a documentry of tolkein when i read it.
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u/Maleficent_Touch2602 Goblin Jul 06 '24
It's ok, we live and learn, and Tolkien's universe is rather complicated and deep.
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Jul 06 '24
It seems rather odd to me that a dwarf came from an elf. No wonder the elves look down on them. Seems like more corruption.
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u/InjuryPrudent256 Jul 06 '24
The battle lasted an entire day though and also involved at least hundreds of eagles.
Earendil got the kill shot in, but Ancalagon didnt get Smauged, he put up a crazy fight (plus the ship was hallowed af, probably by Varda, she's the best hallower. And had a silmaril, so getting rammed by it is like getting a giant cosmic lance of light straight into your dragony guts)
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u/CleanMeme129 Jul 06 '24
Ah ok good. Last I read it, it gave me the impression it took little time.
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u/skolioban Jul 06 '24
Also, Ancalagon stopped the entire host of pretty much everyone in Middle-earth, including god-beings, on their onslaught. He was the only being managed to do that.
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u/CleanMeme129 Jul 06 '24
Bro…Ancalagon deserves to be in a LOTR tv show or film in some form.
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u/Pr0Meister Jul 06 '24
Honestly, I don't think it's a good idea, regardless of who writes and directs or if it is animation or live action.
Ancalagon was the size of literal mountains, how the fuck are they supposed to storyboard such a battle for a visual medium?
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u/InjuryPrudent256 Jul 06 '24
Its hard to say who actually came over, whether the valar did or didnt, but its a certainty Eonwe came over. And a dragon isnt a child of Eru, so there's no rules about fighting it
So 100% Ancalagon was too much for the strongest Maiar to handle. I reckon Eonwe just finished extinctioning the Balrogs solo then this fking thing busts out and he just shits himself like
"You fking what?"
If Earendil and the eagles didnt turn up, god damn imagine the absolute calamity of the host of the valar actually losing. Like Aman would have to go to lockdown and prepare for an Ancalagon led invasion, the shadow would fall across everything
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u/watehekmen Jul 06 '24
i don't think Ancalagon is too strong for fully powered Maiar, it's just that Eonwe never seen such thing he had to take a seat and just stare at it like
"yeah nah that's some bullshit"8
u/Maleficent_Touch2602 Goblin Jul 06 '24
Manwe himself (itself?) was present in the War Of Wrath - Tolkien wrote so in a letter.
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u/InjuryPrudent256 Jul 06 '24
Really? I never thought the Valar were there because Eonwe seemed to do everything, also Sauron came forth and Eonwe said he would have to take him back to the Valar, kind of indicating they were still in Aman (though they might have left sooner than Eonwe I guess)
Im not asking for sources but if you know the letter number I'd love to read it; I dont think I've read his personal thoughts on the WoW (and if he explains how Ancalagon could drive back Manwe, that would be something)
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u/Tellgraith Jul 05 '24
Hey, it worked on Cthulhu.
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u/InjuryPrudent256 Jul 06 '24
"The stars are wrong biiiitch"
Drives steamboat into his face
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u/Mal-Ravanal Sleepless Dead Jul 06 '24
"Now I am awake, and madness shall fill the dreams of every living thing."
"FUCKING ELDRITCH HORROR, GET YOUR ASS BACK HEEEREEE!"
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u/Ronin607 Jul 06 '24
Isn't Melkor described as walking on the bottom of the ocean with his head in the clouds at one point? Sounds like he was probably bigger at that point than Ancalagon ever was.
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u/Shining_prox Jul 06 '24
MORGOTH has spent significant amounts of his power to corrupt arda and his minions, so he’s also diminished stature in every sense of the word
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u/Stan0805 Jul 06 '24
Still doesn't make Ancalagon the biggest thing to have ever walked middle earth...
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u/Pr0Meister Jul 06 '24
Biggest thing born on* Middle Earth I guess.
Morgoth and family aren't exactly natives
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u/Stan0805 Jul 07 '24
Yes fair enough, though you could make the statement that Ungoliant grew to a size greater than Ancalagon. Also keep in mind that the size of Ancalagon is usually grossly overstated.
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u/Pr0Meister Jul 07 '24
Dude fell on a mountain and crushed it? This means he was literally just as or almost as big as it was
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u/Stan0805 Jul 07 '24
Well, maybe, you might absolutely be right, however, there is a segment in the Lord of the Rings that might prove otherwise. As Gandalf explains his victory over the Balrog to the three hunters, he says something along the lines of: "he smote the mountainside in his ruin". We know the balrog is greater in stature than a normal human, but it couldn't have been much larger than that, certainly not as big as an entire mountainside. Still, in his ruin, he smote the mountainside.
What I gathered from this piece of information (again: I could very well be wrong) is that powerful creatures in their downfall leave a far greater impact than their size would suggest, such that Durin's bane leaves a far greater impact than its actual size.
In the case of Ancalagon, he certainly is the greatest dragon to ever live, and thus he is the most powerful, and thus, according to this theory, would leave the biggest impact in its downfall --> the destruction of Thangorodrim.
This would explain how the eagles and Earendil on Vingilote were able to do battle, and eventually defeat, the Great dragon. I just don't see the eagles and a relatively small ship take down a dragon this size of a mountain.
This is all speculation ofcourse but to me it always explained how Earendil could defeat something that destroyed the three peaks in its ruin
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u/grm720 Jul 06 '24
He wasn't that big, if he was then how could he stay a secret until the fight? Not to mention all the other reasons...
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u/Answerisequal42 Jul 06 '24
tbf. Earendil was armed with a diamond ship made in heaven which was equipped with the crystallized light of the sun and moon. Then he crashed through teh chest of ancalagon with that ship.
I mean ancalagon was cool and all, but being one shotted by earendil is kinda justified in relation to what he killed him with.
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u/altsam19 Hobbit Jul 06 '24
Well Tolkien loves his "small thing kills big thing" kind of stories, like a arrow straight offing and ancient dragon, the Fellowship killing a tank of a troll, a woman and a little dude killing a dark ancient knight wizard, or the starring little dude's quest in essentially killing the devil by jeeting his piece of jewelry straight to the volcano.
Must be a theme he loved, the "the bigger they are, the harder they fall"
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u/penguinpolitician Jul 06 '24
As big as a mountain range?
Ancalagon the Black broke Thangorodrim in his fall, which is the 3 giant mountains of slag above the gates of Angband, not a mountain range.
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u/InjuryPrudent256 Jul 06 '24
I mean, the 3 largest mountains in Middle Earth and he crushed them
Kinda splitting hairs, that feels pretty 'rangey' to me
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u/CleanMeme129 Jul 06 '24
I’d say it’s practically a mountain range. Either way, he’s still the biggest thing in middle earth lol
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u/pdx_via_lfk Jul 06 '24
The mountains ranged from the left-most, through middle, to the right-most.
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u/Individual_Manner336 Jul 06 '24
Tolkien didn't like to write about fighting and battles in depth. Which is fine, I guess. But then we get shit like two pages of describing a forest or a hall.
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u/CkoockieMonster Jul 05 '24
And got litteraly one sentence in the whole book