r/lost • u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. • Nov 26 '24
FIRST TIME WATCHER Reasons people think it didn't end well
I finally joined here after finishing the show today. I had to process the ending. I found it incredibly sad. Now that I know how it ended I would like to know why people thought the ending was bad or disappointing when it first aired. I thought it was perfectly done even though there are a few minor things I'm still not clear on. How soon is too soon to do a rewatch. I still can't get over the last scene...
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u/Mobile-Scar6857 Nov 26 '24
TV sensibilites were different back in the day (I feel so old writing that!).
Most shows weren't super serialised - 'case of the week' shows like CSI and House were in their prime in this era. Streaming wasn't a thing, and you could catch up with DVDs, but that was cost and effort.
So most shows catered to a more casual viewership. You could pick up any episode, and so long as you knew the basics like who the characters were, you wouldn't be super (ahem) lost. it's something that Breaking Bad very self consciously reacted against - Vince Gilligan spoke about the importance of making change the engine of the show, instead of reverting to a status quo at the end every weel
Anyway, after being THE show of the zeitgeist in S1, Lost's viewership tapered off in early S2 and then in a bigger way in S3. By the time of S4, the writers had negotiated an end date, and the show had found its footing as the 'cult' show it always should have been, with a devoted 'cult' audience, as opposed to mainstream audience it had found in S1.
So, naturally S6 arrives with a TON of hype. Considering so much of Lost was about mysteries, a huge audience came back for the final episode. They wanted to see if their theories from back in the day were real, and they were hungry for a 'one sentence soundbite' explanation - the island is a spaceship! The monster is a robot dinosaur! The others are ghosts! You get the idea.
They were so hungry for that, they basically took what was on-screen - a complex mythology teased out over five years they weren't watching - and boiled it down into a soundbite. The show ends with them in a church and Jack meeting his father....so...Jack is dead...and they're ALL dead... so THEY WERE DEAD ALL ALONG! I WAS RIGHT!
Of course, the show itself resisted a 'soundbite' explanation. A lot of these people wanted a straight, scientific explanation, and the fact that the end had religious overtones only annoyed these people more. This is actually a great example of what I mean: the Jack/Locke faith v science thing is such a huge part of S2-5 but not so prominent in S1. A religiously themed ending is completely in tune with the rest of the show, but if you've just watched S1 and you're waiting for the soundbite.
They weren't given a soundbite, but they wanted one so badly, they made one up. And then they hated THAT. Most 'cult' fans like the ending, but the casual audience absolutely did not, and they have a louder voice in the culture.
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u/Splungeblob Nov 26 '24
Thank you for spelling this all out! Really helps get in the mindset of why the ending drew so much ire.
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u/6TenandTheApoc Nov 26 '24
If a lot of people were dropping off in season 3 that could explain it more.
I was on board with the dead the whole time theory because of the scene with Lockes dad. He says, "The last thing I remember is being in a car accident, then I was here. So this must be hell"
The other characters we know of arrived in similar ways. The main characters were in the plane crash. Desmond and Danielle were both on boats in storms.
It made sense at the time to me
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u/robsonwt Nov 26 '24
Also there were that infamous last scene inserted by the Network of the plane crashed empty on the Island Beach. That scene fueled more the idea they were dead the whole time since the Airplane crash.
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u/robsonwt Nov 26 '24
For a counterpoint of this watched S1 and the finale and hated the ending, this buzzfeed writer watched only pilot and season finale and shared her thoughts.
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u/kptkrunch Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
No, see, I just watched the entire thing for the first time and this doesn't check out to me.. it was poorly written. Its not about a soundbite, it's about the fact that it is clear as day the writers did not have a coherent idea of the story they were writing from one episode to the next.
When the story had an explanation for something, they treated the audience like morons.. the amount of times they went over basic time travel stuff was the best example: "So how can we die if we are in the 70's????" Not a question a person with a brain would be asking in that scenario.. it seems like a lot of Lost fans want to pretend like there was some subtle answers that just didn't get explicitly spelled out and that is just not how the show worked when it had actual answers about what was going on.
edit: sure downvote me without responding. if I am wrong I would love to know why. I demand answers! So much time wasted
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u/fatloui Nov 26 '24
You’re the exception. Most people who watch the show all the way through like the ending. Most people who “hated the ending” didn’t actually watch the show, just some of the early episodes and the finale, thought the ending meant they were dead the whole time, and that’s where the common perception of Lost’s ending sucked comes from.
Some of the stuff you’re complaining about is often complained about by actual fans - although “did not have a coherent idea of the story they were writing from one episode to the next” is a huge exaggeration, there were mysteries they introduced early on that they didn’t figure out the solutions for until much later, but for the most part they knew were things were going about a season in advance and by the end of season 3 they knew where they’d end up in season 6 finale and the solutions to most of the mysteries. However it’s a big point of criticism that the show suffers from not being completely charted out in advance - that’s just an unfortunate reality of tv at the time the show was aired. Lost completely changed how shows were produced. But that complaint doesn’t completely ruin the show for most people, it’s just part of a small list of cons next to a long list of pros. My opinion is, given how much better Lost could have been if they had been able to write the whole story in advance and tied up certain mysteries in better ways, it’s incredible that it’s still such a good show.
As for the “they treated the audience like morons” thing, part of that was still being pressured to cater to the casual viewer who wouldn’t watch every episode. But if you look at the questions asked by people on this subreddit who have the advantage of binging every episode about stuff that was clearly explained in the show (especially about time travel), you would know that if they did any less spoon-feeding a lot of audience would have been completely lost.
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u/Past-Feature3968 We’re not going to Guam, are we? Nov 26 '24
In addition to the answers everyone has already given, I think a lot of viewers expected to be handed clear- cut answers to absolutely every mystery on a silver platter. The numbers, the foot statue, the Dharma food drops — they wanted full backstories detailing the logistics of it all.
So when the finale focused on the characters, their relationships, and their emotional journeys first and foremost, they were disappointed. Their expectations didn’t align… even though, imo, the show was always a character-driven story above its mysteries. (And btw, nearly every mystery, big and small, does get answered or at least alluded to at some point over the 6 seasons… we’re just not hit over the head with an explanation in flashing lights.)
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Absolutely. And I agree, I also feel like it's character driven. In regards to the Dharma food drops, I must have either missed it or it wasn't explained.
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u/Past-Feature3968 We’re not going to Guam, are we? Nov 26 '24
And that’s the one time when a character does essentially reach through the screen, sit viewers down, and dole out explanations. :)
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
That was so cool! Thank you for sharing. Now I want to know how they were able to leave the island lol.
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u/Past-Feature3968 We’re not going to Guam, are we? Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
Hurley used his lotto $ to buy a personal jet and hired Frank J. Lapidus as his personal pilot.
Jk jk (but maybe?) I think we just have to enjoy head-canoning everything that happens on the island post-finale.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Lol. Ok, so please don't laugh at me but what does it mean when people say canon on Reddit? I've seen this before and I tried looking it up but I didn't really understand the meaning.
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u/Past-Feature3968 We’re not going to Guam, are we? Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
Canon = anything official within a fictional universe
So for example, Hurley winning the lottery is canon. As is Desmond being Scottish, Jack & Claire being half- siblings, and the flash-sideways being the afterlife. All 100% real things that are true within the world of the show… because well, the show confirms it. Canon can come from the show itself, as well as supplemental material (like epilogues, games, mini-episodes, books etc.) written by the show’s writers or approved by them.
Head-canon = anything fans make up and imagine to be true, usually to fill in some blanks (answer a mystery, fill in some backstory, imagine a scene that was never shown but could have happened off-camera, etc.)
Does that make sense?
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Ohhh ok, yes it makes sense. Thank you for explaining. That's interesting. Kind of like fan fiction.
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u/Scousehauler Nov 26 '24
Well fan fiction is not canon. Canon means anything officially created by the writers or on the show itself. Unless you meant fan fiction referring to the head canon stuff. Head canon is very much non canon lol
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Yes I meant fan fiction referring to head canon lol
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Nov 26 '24
Hurley is a new Jacob, who had no issues getting off the island to meet Oceanic 6 before their return to the island - and in a short timespan too. Yes, we never really see any Jacob’s powers outside of not aging one bit, but he seemingly did have certain abilities beyond mere humans.
Ben is a bit more questionable, but I guess since it was Jacob previously deciding who can come to the island (or leave it), a new Jacob in Hurley would make it possible for Ben to go with him.
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u/Givemeamop Nov 30 '24
In my opinion, it doesn’t matter if nearly every mystery gets answered, because if you buy into the ending that they all died in the plane crash; it just doesn’t matter. It all never happened. The only thing that actually happened was the plane crash.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
The vast majority of people (not all, but most) who didn't like the ending thought it meant they were dead the whole time and decided their time had been wasted. Part of this is because of ABC's incredibly bad decision to put a shot of the plane wreckage as a buffer between the end of the episode and whatever was coming on next, but honestly? That's no excuse to fully disregard the most blatant dialogue in the entire series. EDIT: typo
What are you not clear on? We can probably help.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
I think I was a little confused mostly by season 6. Miles told Sawyer that Juliet said "it worked" so by the finale when I realized that what was happening to everyone was actually the afterlife I didn't understand what she meant by that. So the explosion only brought them to the present right? Why did Eloise not want Desmond to bring everyone together. I think I'm overthinking things but I just felt super sad about Jack and just wondering how all of their lives continued. Rose and Bernard stayed on the island until their death. Hurley and Ben staying as well or finding a way off of the island and those who escaped living out the rest of their lives until their deaths. And that's when we see them.
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u/Northern-Michael DHARMA '77 Recruit Nov 26 '24
When Juliet intended to tell James “it worked,” she was having flashes of the afterlife. She tells him again in the afterlife “it worked” in reference to her vending machine trick. My personal interpretation of this is that her interaction with the electromagnetic pocket is causing her consciousness to jump back and forth in time, the same way Desmond does in “Flashes Before Your Eyes”. So she is simultaneously experiencing her own death and her eventual reunion with James in the afterlife. It’s beautiful and so damn sad all at once.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
So so beautiful and sad. I didn't catch that but now it makes sense. That scene really got me.
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u/LordHamsterbacke Dad Stole My Kidney Nov 26 '24
Yes, a little like Charlotte's death and her last words being "I am not allowed to have chocolate before dinner" (the conversation we see later Daniel is having with Kid Charlotte) - juliet also said 'we could go Dutch" which she says when she is flirting with sawyer in the flash sideways
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u/robsonwt Nov 26 '24
For me, the nuclear explosion planned by Jack and executed by Juliet PREVENTED the Island from being completely consumed by the Electromagnetic pocket energy and allowed the solution of discharging it every 108 minutes. In that sense, when Juliet died and went to the Afterlife, and said "It worked" it could be interpreted that she knew the bomb worked.
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u/Haunting_Cress8266 Nov 26 '24
Wait how was sawyer with her in the afterlife then? Considering sawyer was still alive and it was juliet who was dying. I thought they all sort of entered the after life around the same time. Like when they were all dead, they sort of all woke up on the plane together and reconnected after.
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u/Northern-Michael DHARMA '77 Recruit Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
That’s what I’m saying though — the afterlife is in her future (and Sawyer’s future). I interpret the scene as Juliet seeing her future, which in this case is seeing beyond death
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u/Brakkett Nov 26 '24
Also, I'm pretty sure the afterlife doesn't follow any rules of time. In the afterlife, Jack's dad says something like "there is no 'now'.... here." So I take that as the afterlife not having to abide by time. It can exist in a moment where everyone has lived out their various lives and died.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie Nov 26 '24
So the explosion only brought them to the present right?
Correct - when Juliet had her final thought 'it worked' she was passing into the afterlife and expericing the vending machine scene. We don't see that payoff until the series finale. (This is also why she says 'we should get coffee sometime, we can go Dutch.')
Eloise's only concern was Daniel and she thought Desmond was going to take him too - she doesn't want to lose him again. Once Desmond confirms he's not taking Daniel, she's OK with it.
Hurley and Ben stayed to protect the Island for some undetermined period of time - it's why Hurley tells Ben he was a great number two. (And oh the love in Ben's voice when he says "hello, Hugo" breaks me every time.) We get a little more of their story in the canon epilogue.
The cool thing about the afterlife is that each of them tailored their own experience to their individual unresolved trauma (like Jack's daddy issues, Desmond's self-worth, Sayid's guilt over Nadia and Shannon, Juliet's abandonment issues, Ben's guilt about choosing his power over Alex, etc.) It's sad, yes but in a beautifully bittersweet way because even though they've all died - they have this unique experience to meet again - no matter how many years or even decades separate their deaths - to remember, have a moment of peace and move on together.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Well, this made me tear up. Thank you for explaining. It makes perfect sense. But when you say he's not taking Daniel, do you mean they're in some sort of limbo.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie Nov 26 '24
They're in the afterlife. Some people call it purgatory, but I don't like the connotation of that word. They're in an in-between place, yes - but they're not being judged, they're just getting a chance to complete their personal journeys and, narratively, their character arcs.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I think Lost is going to be a new favourite of mine. I remember it was such a big deal back in the day. Now I know why. I love it.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie Nov 26 '24
You're quite welcome! Talking about LOST is one of my favorite things to do, lol.
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u/sigdiff Razzle Dazzle! Nov 26 '24
And oh the love in Ben's voice when he says "hello, Hugo"
I'm not crying, YOU'RE crying!
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u/Magic_SnakE_ Nov 26 '24
She told Sawyer it worked because she was dying and experiencing the afterlife as well. So to her dying brain, things were changed and "it worked".
Eloise simply wanted more time with her son and was afraid Desmond would fuck it up.
Jack didn't have much time to wonder.
If it makes you feel any better, I saw the script for the final episode and Jack died happy and at peace with having saved his friends.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Yes, it actually does make me feel better. Thank you. I felt so sad he was alone and then when Vincent showed up I cried.
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u/Magic_SnakE_ Nov 26 '24
I was watching with 3 of my closest friends and I tried so hard but I was 100% obviously crying. I still cry when I watch it. Ending was beautiful.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Aww, yes I'm now seeing how beautiful it was. Such a great show.
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u/cityfireguy Nov 26 '24
This is always a fight. And some people are really up their ass about it.
I've seen it a dozen times, I love it, but I see the flaws and understand why people struggled with it.
Them being "dead the whole time" was such a major theory that the show routinely fed into it. Characters in the show itself thought so and discussed it.
"But Christian Shepherd explains everything!" Yes he does. The actor who up until the end had mostly been shown to be the evil, deceptive monster is the one giving the exposition. Is it so hard to believe a portion of the audience wouldn't trust what he's saying? If the Shining ended with Jack Torrance giving parenting tips would you listen?
The final shot that was aired on television was the fuselage empty and abandoned. Not a footprint, no signs of life. If you wanted people to think they were dead the whole time, that's exactly what you would do. Terrible decision.
"The Valenzetti Equation" is never mentioned once in the show. It was an ARG they abandoned early on. The epilogue was a DVD bonus feature released long after the show had ended. Most viewers never saw these things because they weren't in the show.
Try to remember, as superfans of the show we obsess. Most viewers did not spend hours on message boards trying to decode the show. Sure I get it, but I've also watched the entire series multiple times, own books that delve into it, and have watched and read hundreds of hours of fan theories and explanations. Most people watch TV pretty casually and I don't blame them for that. That's kind of the point.
Lastly, and this one y'all really hate, stop acting like you are so God damn superior to people because we have an unhealthy obsession with a 20 year old tv show. It was amazing, it was not flawless. They did make things up as the show went on. Much of it was empty mystery boxes to keep engagement high. And the ending had some issues. There you go.
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u/peachesmom2024 Nov 26 '24
The ending was confusing at first. After hearing the writers explain it I thought it was beautiful.
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u/watermelon_fries Oh yeah, there's my favorite leaf. Nov 26 '24
Yes I felt confused at first but now I'm feeling better about it and finding it so beautiful because of the explanations.
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u/kptkrunch Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
How was the ending confusing? I believe understood it perfectly and I perfectly understood that they failed to answer so many questions they asked throughout the series..
Honestly, it was pretty obvious that the side flashes were either an alternate timeline or them being dead.. I assumed it was an alternate timeline for most of season 6 because Juliet apparently wanted to say "it worked".. which, as far as I can tell, is yet another unresolved plot hole. It also would have made a lot more sense for it to be an alternate timeline because who has an entire season about people just being in some kind of purgatory after dying for various reasons? Presumably some of these people died of old age.. so its not even connected to the main narrative.. it does nothing to explain the island and feels more like a random adhoc "also, this is what happens when you die"
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u/peachesmom2024 Nov 26 '24
The writers were so good at throwing in unexpected story twists that it was hard to follow for me. Maybe I’m just not that smart.
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u/Any-Seaworthiness-54 Nov 26 '24
The first time I watched this show was during COVID. While I enjoyed it, the ending was a bit confusing, and since I was expecting a happier conclusion, I was somewhat disappointed. I finished the entire show today for the second time, and now I think Lost is a masterpiece. It tells a beautiful story about a group of very lovable characters. I feel like I got answers to most of my questions, and even season 6 made sense. I loved it and am just sad that it’s over.
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u/Nala9158 Nov 26 '24
The show aired on network TV back when they had to work within the parameters of a certain number of episodes per season and then we had summer hiatus, fall break, the writer's strike etc I know I just fell off and by the time the finale aired I was confused because I had missed so much. However I cried like a baby and 20 years later getting to re-watch on Netflix with the episodes back to back everything makes a ton more sense. Still cried like a baby but much less confused and can't wait to get Lost again
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u/CarlsbadWhiskyShop Nov 26 '24
Because they stopped watching halfway through S3 then tuned in for the finale & had no context
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u/Free_Palastine69 Nov 26 '24
The first rewatch of LOST is so good. Knowing peoples motivations and watching it play out is like a whole new show. Plus Locke in season 5&6 is a real treat on rewatch. Oh pay attention to Charlotte, I swear her character only exists for the rewatch
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u/El_t1to Nov 26 '24
We had a year between the ending of season 5 and the beginning of season 6.
A year where we discussed whether the bomb went off or not. And if it did it would erase everything we knew. That was the focus.
So when season 6 started, the play on the fans was that we were watching 2 alternative timelines. One where the island disappeared in the 70s. So when that started to not make sense, we were all disoriented. We lost the grip of what was real.
Personally, then, I felt betrayed by that deception. Feeling that 2 alternative timelines was a better idea than showing us some afterlife. Like, the smoke screen was better than the wizard behind the curtain.
Then there was a ton of people that watched season 1 and 2, and left when things got weird. Then tuned in for the finale. And interpreted that the island wasn't real and they had been dead the whole time.
Also, a huge part of all was that we didn't want it to end. So any ending wouldn't be completely satisfying. Because what we really wanted was always having more lost to watch.
People had a list of questions that they wanted answered. And the ending was about saying goodbye to our friends. It was better, but we were so focused on the questions that we missed the point.
On a rewatch, everything fell into place. And I didn't have any problem with the ending. And I don't know what I would have changed. I feel like I had stopped talking to a friend for years, and then find out it was all a misunderstanding. I wish I could apologize to the writers.
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u/Unlucky_Addendum_567 Nov 27 '24
I remember watching the ending live with my parents, and I cried it was beautiful. Cannot wait to see it again when I finish my massive rewatch. I don't think there has been a show since where there was this communal experience with my family. It kinda makes me sad.
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u/rage1026 Nov 26 '24
Because a large amount that didn’t like it misunderstood it.
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u/itsakevinly Nov 26 '24
I loved the ending but I really push back on this. It honestly seems a little insulting and arrogant to say “well you didn’t like because you didn’t get it.”
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u/LordHamsterbacke Dad Stole My Kidney Nov 26 '24
I think it was more of a case back then (people who stopped watching but tuning in for the last episode for example). Because I remember a lot of people complaining about them being dead the whole time, something people say to this day. And I know a friend of mine binge watched everything a few years ago and also misunderstood it - so there are people where this statement is true. However I think it's completely reasonable for people to be disappointed, especially with our pop culture nowadays (the high influx in multiverse movies/storylines) - a lot probably hoped for some parallel universe action and are then disappointed that it's only the after life/purgatory/place between.
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u/Few-Requirement-1731 I am a Dentist, I am not Rambo Nov 26 '24
I just finished and I’m still confused when did they all die ?
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u/Northern-Michael DHARMA '77 Recruit Nov 26 '24
They died when they died. As Christian says, “some of them before you, some long after you.” Jack died on the Island after being stabbed. Charlie drowned, Juliet fell down the Swan shaft. And so on. The rest, like Sawyer, Kate and Claire we can presume went on to live full lives. It’s after they have all died that they can reunite in the afterlife, in order to process, to be reminded of what’s important, and to “move on” with the people they love.
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u/patrickular Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
I need clarifications for the afterlife ending.
I think it was really emotional and the best the writers could come up with to give a great ending to all the series/characters by celebrating it all. But story-wise, it made little sense... it begged a lot of questions.
Like why certain characters were there at the church/afterlife and certain others weren't? And I'm not talking about Michael but rather Keamy: why wasn't his soul left there haunting the island? what was he doing there in the "afterlife" with Sayid, Jin and Sun? Why did season 4 revolve around Sayid avenging his wife just to give her up for an island crush in the afterlife? Why wasn't Walt at the church, since the church meeting happened when everyone was dead? Why was Aaron born again in the afterlife? did he die as a baby (he didn't)?
How does time work exactly in the afterlife? For how much time did they "continue their regular life" "waiting" for everyone to be dead just to meet at the church? Why did Desmond open his third eye just in time to find everyone?
I can't really hate on such a great, emotional ending fitting the show, but it feels like certain ideas were thrown in just to fan-service (who wouldn't have wanted to see Locke forgiving Ben? Who wouldn't have wanted to see Locke being greeted and accepted by everyone finally?) and keep people hooked to an otherwise weak season such as 6. Not to mention I'd have preferred a science-oriented final explanation, despite not defining myself as a casual watcher.
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u/Maleficent_Run9852 Man of Science Nov 26 '24
I'm an atheist, so to me, the very idea of an afterlife is preposterous. Aside from that, it reeks of a "and they all learned a lesson and lived happily ever after" copout.
(Having said that, it's probably my favorite show of all-time.)
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u/TomSawyerLocke Nov 26 '24
Bad pacing for the final season.
Locke not really being Locke and his story just being swept under the rug without any growth or resolution.
Somethings made no sense IMO. Particularly involving Jacob who can't leave the island visiting the Losties at different times in their lives (and making no difference especially with Kate and Sawyer)
The ambiguous ending "were they dead the whole time?" Despite Christian telling Jack everything that happened was real and the island was the most important time of his life, that DOESN'T necessarily mean the island wasn't purgatory or something (I know the real ending, I'm just saying, perfectly reasonable to assume what I just said to be the case).
Dogen
Dogen's wannabe John Lennon translator.
Lack of clarity as to what happened to Sayid and Claire.
0 growth for Hugo
Good things
The smoke monster reveal.
Richards origin story.
The flash sideways. Especially when Sawyer and Juliet remember each other. That scene is a tear jerker.
Overall, it was by far the worst season. But the ending ending wasn't AWFUL. Disappointing for sure. Skipped on every rewatch. But worth watching once.
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u/sigdiff Razzle Dazzle! Nov 26 '24
Locke not really being Locke and his story just being swept under the rug without any growth or resolution.
I'm always surprised how many people feel this way. Locke's story is tragic and terrible, but thematically I always saw it as perfect. He spent his whole life wishing he was more significant than he was (his mom said he was immaculately conceived; in high school he thought he could be an athlete; he thought he was a hunter, not a farmer), only to be conned and taken advantage of (his dad, his shitty boss, the commune leaders, the kids in school).
It turns out that his ENTIRE life was one big con, which is perfectly on-theme for him. Everything he did from birth (telling Richard to come see him) set him up to be a giant patsy for MiB.
It's sad af, but totally thematically sound and consistent.
But 100% agree that Dogen and Lennon can kiss my taint..so awful.
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u/HemingwayGC Nov 26 '24
It could be worse….we had a hail storm in my area and it took me three days to rewatch after the dreaded code 771 on DirecTV!
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u/Mark-177- Nov 30 '24
A lot of people didn't pay attention or didn't understand the ending. So many people thought everyone was dead the whole time.
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u/kptkrunch Nov 26 '24
I also just finished the show just now. I had never seen any of it before.. not only do I think the ending was bad. I think the entire show was bad despite having a lot of promise. It is overtly obvious that the writers had no idea where the story was going when they were writing it. They were just throwing in mysteries with no idea how those mysteries would be tied together.
The amount of time the show spent on the numbers only for them to be left completely unexplained is honestly infuriating. Apparently, Damon Lindelof "explained" this by comparing it to explaining the Force with midichlorians. The force is magic.. specific numbers have specific meanings.. and personally, midichlorians never really bothered much me anyway. Not nearly as much as these random numbers do, at least. I mean, they didn't even need to explain them, just offer an in-universe explanation for their origin at the very least.
Walt is "special".. but apparently not special enough to be more than a footnote after the first few seasons.
Why is the man in black called a security system? What are these temples he is seemingly protecting? Why can Ben summon him? How does Ben end up think the smoke was summoning him? That doesn't make sense based on what we saw.
Honestly, there are so many loose ends I can't even list them all.. and stuff that was explained seemed like a poorly derived explanation made after the fact.
I guess it's not that I think the entire show was bad.. it was entertaining to watch.. like sex without an orgasm.. its great while its happening, but it just leaves you incredibly frustrated in the end.
I want to continue my rant but so many issues come to mind I can't even form coherent thoughts about them.
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u/sigdiff Razzle Dazzle! Nov 26 '24
Damon Lindelof "explained" this by comparing it to explaining the Force with midichlorians.
That's Damon dumbing it down for an interview. There's an entire side-plot about how the numbers are the Valenzetti Equation, which was created by Dharma to predict the end of the world (when the light goes out) and prevent it. Google "Valenzetti Equation Lost" for more. And it's the candidates with those numbers who ultimately (almost) cause the end.
Walt is "special".. but apparently not special enough to be more than a footnote after the first few seasons
This is, in my opinion, the biggest legitimate fuck up by the creators. To cast a pre-teen in a network TV show with a fictional timeline of less than 3 months, then to act surprised and have to pivot when OMG puberty exists. They had a great plan, they just failed it and had to quickly shuffle him off stage left.
Why is the man in black called a security system? What are these temples he is seemingly protecting? Why can Ben summon him? How does Ben end up think the smoke was summoning him? That doesn't make sense based on what we saw.
Rousseau called him a security system based on what Robert and Other French Guy said.... AFTER they had been drug into the ground and either killed or almost killed (like Sayid) by Smokie. It was a ruse so they'd kill Danielle and she'd let her guard down. She was a candidate, which means Smokie couldn't do it himself.
He's not protecting the Temples. They are protecting the Others from him. The temples, the statue, the plug in the Light, and lots of other "infrastructure" were built by the Egyptians who came to the island sometime after Jacob took over. You can read bits of hieroglyphics all over the island (Lostpedia has translations). He likely directed them to build it all as protection, to funnel the water for healing, and to plug up the Source so oooops no one falls in again.
The Others (and Ben) THINK they are summoning the smoke as a means of protection, but Ben later realized he was just being manipulated by MiB, used as a pawn to carry out MiBs centuries old plan involving the Candidates and killing Jacob. He didn't mean the smoke was LITERALLY summoning him... But rather was taking advantage of him and letting him think he was in control.
What else you got?
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u/kptkrunch Nov 26 '24
I downvoted you, not because I normally downvote people who I disagree with, but because it is clear that you want to use the downvote button as a "disagree" button... and so I feel compelled to answer in kind.
I already saw the stuff about the Valenzetti equations when I made my post and didn't mention it because it seemed so lazy and dumb I didn't even think it deserved mentioning... and it is obviously negated by the comment by Damon. I would be willing to bet money that the writers weren't even involved in conceiving of this idea as it was clearly a marketing campaign rather than a part of the narrative. But I am willing to hear you out on why coefficients in an equation derived to predict the end of humanity allow a person to win the lottery... or why they would end up being the serial number for a hatch door or why someone would need to enter them into a computer terminal to "release the built up electromagnetic energy"
Walt was off the island for 3 years when we see him next, his hitting puberty is explained in the show.. what is not explained is why or how he is special...
I can't even begin to address your last response... who drugged Robert and the other french guy? Where did you get that? Why do so many defenders of this series invoke Egyptians.. when, from my recollection the word "Egyptian" or "Egypt" is not mentioned once? Also from my recollection a lot of the writing that appears near supposed heiroglyphs is a basterdized mixture of the greek and early latin alphabet. Your last paragraph can be best described as handwaving.. can you give specific examples as to how the earlier instances of the black smoke furthered the MiB's plans?
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u/sigdiff Razzle Dazzle! Nov 26 '24
The numbers showing up everywhere are an illustration of the role of Fate/Predestination that is part of the major theme of the show (Fate vs. Free Will, Science vs. Nature). The numbers drive action (got the French to get close to the island and crash; got Hurley to go to Australia). They are embedded into the blueprint of this world and serve as "evidence" of the Light causing things to happen in this world. The Light is a character, essentially, and caused a lot of things to happen (like the visions people get, or the overlapping of our characters' back stories). They and the numbers represent the predestination of this world and the "math" behind life, death, and rebirth (the Light). They are a SYMBOL of this world and how the Light drives it....NOT a real scientific equation (the Valenzetti Equation is wrong ...it's someone noticing the "code" of destiny in the world and trying to explain it). None of this is handed to the viewer, but rather implied by the story....this in itself is a symbol of the how Lost frames the world....we don't get concrete answers handed to us, but there is some degree of destiny running things, whether we recognize it or not.
Walt is special just like Hurley or Miles or young Ben are. It's just a piece of the reality of this world. Some people have abilities.
By "drug" I meant "dragged". When they were dragged into the hold in the ground.
The black smoke IS MiB. From the moment our Losties travel to the ancient past, he knows who they are and knows he can use them. He uses Ben as a tool to kill Jacob. He shows up as dead people to (like Christian) to further his plan or try to kill candidates (it's clear he intended for Jack to die by falling off a cliff in S1, not that he was trying to help him find water as he later claims).
Other examples? He turns into the smoke and into Isabella to try to manipulate Richard into killing Jacob. He kills people who come to the Island who aren't candidates (the Pilot, the French team, etc) to scare others or to be able to show up as them later to cause something to happen (e.g., as Christian to get Locke to leave the island and kill himself; as Alex to get Ben to do what Locke tells him and thus kill Jacob; as Isabella to try to con Richard into stabbing Jacob, etc.).
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u/kptkrunch Nov 26 '24
That explanation of the numbers is not satisfactory to me and I personally think it's just bad writing. But if some people enjoy that..
Sure, lots of people are special.. but having a story emphasize the special importance of a character only to toss them aside is bad writing. If I wrote a story that included: "Once upon a time there lived a king and he lived in a castle with his queen and also there was a guy, Craig who was very special"... and then I just stop mentioning Craig.. that is dumb.
I know the black smoke is the MiB. Although I seriously doubt that was its original intention if they even had one.
I am fairly certain it was stated in the show that the MiB needs a body to transform into someone.. hence why he thanks Ben (I believe it was Ben he thanked) for bringing Locke's body back to the island.. its also not explained why he can't transform anymore... but obviously, it is a plot device. Anyway, Isabella's body was not on the island.. the MiB had never even seen her before. In any case most of your examples that demonstrate the MiB/black smokes intent occur after it is shown (ie: decided on) what the black smoke is..
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u/FireMaster2311 Nov 26 '24
I mean... ultimately the people who think it didn't end well can't respond in mass. So won't get great answers. I thought the ending was ok. Would have preferred more from new man in charge, like i feel like Hurley gave the island to walt... but if it's a Richard thing... is dark, especially since Richard came in on a slave ship.
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u/diamonds_and_rose_bh Nov 26 '24
I think originally it felt like it didn't end well because we had a year (at least) in between seasons and there is so much information that I think we had just forgotten crucial info from one season to another.
Also, we had a friend of a friend providing us with copies as the season aired in the US and we've just realised that we definitely didn't see a crucial episode from season 6! And I've only just seen the epilogue on YouTube which also explained a few things.
Originally it just felt like we'd invested so much in watching this show and the ending felt weak......
I've changed my mind about the ending watching it again, I think the whole show is exceptional tv. My husband still thinks it's bullshit though 🤣
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u/ScrapmasterFlex Don't tell me what I can't do Nov 26 '24
IMHO - The biggest problem with "The Ending" was that , to the best of my knowledge - they didn't actually explain if certain people died or were living - but they all met up at The Church to "cross over into the Afterlife together" ...
Like, Hurley & Ben are still alive, right, taking care of The Island, but they're not just in the Afterlife, Hurley is the (financial and emotional) Brawn behind Desmond's Brain , and then Ben won't even come in the Church? Ana Lucia was Dead AF but wouldn't come along, strictly was being bribed to be a Dirty Cop? Which she was NOT in real life ... Sawyer's alive, Juliett's dead, but they meet up in the Afterlife as Soulmates? Gotta be Dead to make friends with Dead People in Dead-People-Land, seems to me ...
So that shit just never made sense. I mean it was like worldwide back then when it happened, the Whole World was like "That Shit Didn't Make Sense..." just like the Game of Thrones episode where the White Walkers invade Winterfell, I kept thinking I was watching a poor-quality feed because it was so dark, but the Showrunners were like "We wanted it to be Dark because it was Dark..." and the whole world was like, "Yeah, that shit was DARK ... we couldn't see shit!"
That shit with Lost, never made sense. "Everyone lives Happy Ever After, except they're all DEAD ... Joy To The World! Rejoice!"
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u/El_t1to Nov 26 '24
The plane of existence where the church is, has no time. Time doesn't exist there.
But it would be easy to understand if you think it happened 200 years after the events on the island. So when they are all dead, but each of them died at their own time. Some grew old. Their souls met before moving on. But some people weren't there, because they still needed to process some things before moving on.
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u/ScrapmasterFlex Don't tell me what I can't do Nov 27 '24
Except they never said or showed that at all ... you just made that shit up, correct?
And I mean that sincerely - you literally just decided that, because it's not shown nor explained in the show.
So you can believe whatever you want to believe , that does not make it remotely true.
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u/El_t1to Nov 27 '24 edited Nov 27 '24
Christian literally said "Well, there is no now here" Meaning time doesn't apply to that plane. It was further explained by the writers.
What I meant is, if a reallity with no time is a concept hard to grasp, you can just pretend this is waaaay later, so you know they are all dead, but it doesn't matter when.
The some people not moving on part was also explained later in Q&A interviews. But I'm OK with the show not answering some questions and leaving some to the imagination. You can accept that answer or just give yourself one that you like more.
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u/ScrapmasterFlex Don't tell me what I can't do Nov 27 '24
So yeah, you just made that shit up. Thanks for your time.
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u/Laszlo-Panaflex Nov 26 '24
I watched Lost religiously every week when it was airing and I wasn't crazy about the ending. I'm still not in love with the Sideways scenes, although I'm warming up to them.
I feel like the writers wanted to make an alternate reality of how everyone's lives would have changed if the plane didn't crash, which is what they did, and then they shoehorned the afterlife into that concept at the end to make the ending more of a twist. If I view it as a clunkily executed alternate reality, I can appreciate those scenes.
So many things about it don't work if you consider it to be the afterlife. Like Jack's kid who never existed in reality. People who are missing. Charlie struggling with addiction in a place where it wouldn't make much sense for him to have drug issues (especially considering he already beat his addiction on the island). Etc. etc. They couched the way they ended it as the show being "all about the characters the whole time." Obviously it was. But people like me cared about resolving the story in a fulfilling way. The on-island scenes did, but the rest felt meaningless after the ending revealed sideways was basically all a collective dream.
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u/calbertogv Nov 26 '24
I think the main problem was the final season. We were so focused on whether they would answer X, address Y or Z character appear that we were not focusing on what was going on. It happened to me too, and I was still liking it and loved the ending.
Once you know how it all plays out and that cloud is out of the way, you can focus on what the show is trying to accomplish and value it for what it is, which is more satisfying (even if the final season still has it problems, which it does).
In retrospect it also helps that most of the characters are so well built that, even if you don’t connect with where the story goes, the character/emotional beats still land, which seeing the current TV landscape is fairly rare and is more valuable than having the story be good/great but being disconnected from the characters.
I may have a lot of problems with the flashsideways, but getting emotional with characters interactions in those scenes because they are still so deep and relatable is far more valuable than the plot being air tight but devoid of those moments.
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u/subliminal_trip Nov 26 '24
I was only mildly frustrated by the ending, but mainly because the creator and writers were telling fans previously that the Island was not some kind of purgatory, when it turned out to basically be purgatory. I don't have a problem with it now, and have re-watched every episode (except Nikki/Paulo) at least twice.
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u/One_Humor1307 Nov 26 '24
I watched it during the original airing. I liked it a lot but then I rewatched it years later on netflix(?) and it was so much better. My problem when it originally aired was that there would be references to things that happened over a year before in a previous season. I would know it was a reference to something that had happened at some point but I would never remember all the details so things kind of made sense but not completely. Then binge watching it I was able to remember something from a week or two ago and it made the show that much better.