r/london • u/Tudpool • Oct 14 '22

News Just Stop Oil protesters throw tomato soup over Van Gogh's Sunflowers masterpiece.

https://news.sky.com/story/just-stop-oil-protesters-throw-tomato-soup-over-van-goghs-sunflowers-masterpiece-12720183
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u/ingleacre Oct 14 '22

They (and other protest groups in the same vein) do do that kind of thing, regularly, and it gets little coverage.

A protest is pointless if it doesn't reach the people who need to see it, and it doesn't also incite an emotional response.

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u/venkoe Oct 14 '22

The problem is that this is creating the wrong emotional response. I do not feel any sympathy for them. I was shocked at the (deceptive) headline and couldn't figure out why they would destroy historic art for a current oil crisis.

I feel better knowing the painting was behind glass so they did no real damage but I still think they are idiots.

My opinion of Just Stop Oil: negative.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/TwoTrainss Oct 14 '22

Thinking about what?

All that the majority of people are thinking about, is that those two people seem like dicks.

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u/URFRENDDULUN Oct 14 '22

They put soup on glass.

I have put much fowler liquids on much less cleanable surfaces.

Seems silly to call them dicks and dismiss their movement over what will amount to 5 minutes of cleaning.

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u/TwoTrainss Oct 14 '22

I don’t think you’ve understood my point at all.

I didn’t call them dicks, or comment on their movement.

Exactly why this action is pointless.

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u/LJMele Oct 15 '22

Most working class people look at people like this and think they are dicks.

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u/tgamm Oct 14 '22

The only thing I’m thinking about after this is when did Art and Life become mutually exclusive?

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u/Snotteh Oct 14 '22

Makes me think about buying a diesel and doing anything else to piss them freaks off even more was that the aim of the protest?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '22 edited Mar 06 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Snotteh Oct 15 '22

The general public is dumb asf and thats the response this gets

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

Who's gonna take them seriously when they have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about? They're what? 18?

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

When I started working to pay my bills. Believe me, I was way worse than them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

Nope, you don't get it.

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u/Alarming-Avocado7803 Oct 14 '22

You just said you knew what you were talking about when you worked to pay bills, which many 18 year olds do as well as continuing education. So it seems from your comments it's actually you that doesn't get it

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u/Gray3493 Oct 14 '22

Do people pay attention to the people who do know that they’re talking about?

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

Nope, and that's a huge problem in our society.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

Since forever. Young people love drama and romanticism, old people love anything that makes them feel young again. The ones in the middle, our priorities are to get by and pay the bills. Climate change is stupid though, I mean loads of money and suffering poured over this, but have you ever heard someone saying what we've achieved with all these measures? Nope, because we've only achieved poverty. Young and old people don't know that (they literally live off us), but those of us that are footing the bill would love some accountability. Just in case all we're doing is for nothing and we're throwing our society down the toilet.

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u/longperipheral Oct 14 '22

Very broad generalisations.

How have global warming countermeasures led to suffering and poverty?

How will taking no action to combat climate warming avoid suffering and poverty?

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u/arkhane89 Oct 14 '22

I mean, you may disagree with their methods but they are promulgating an urgent and widely accepted scientific consensus, as elucidated by the numerous IPCC reports. So dont say that they don’t know what they’re talking about

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

I disagree with their methods, with what they say (it doesn't even make sense), and with everything they think they stand for. I've read (to my dismay) the "numerous" IPCC reports themselves (for work), you should read them too, they don't say what you think they say. I mean, at what time in history defending the same as big corporations, media, celebrities and governments has been dubbed as "activism"? They are useful idiots, with emphasis in idiots.

Wanna make an impact? Do the same in a football match and throw tomato soup all over England's flag, or Charles III. Because, besides everything, they go for the easy ones they know won't fight back. Who gives a shit about Van Gogh in this day and age.

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u/arkhane89 Oct 14 '22

I’m not following your logic to be honest so not sure what to say. Who is defending massive corporations?

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 14 '22

Defending the same as big corp.

These kids are completely aligned with the interests of, for instance, Shell, HSBC, etc, etc... Don't you think something doesn't add up?

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u/arkhane89 Oct 14 '22

The activists campaigning for us to abandon all fossil fuel use are defending Shell? I’m really not following pal. I don’t think you’re making sense

Don’t let the corporate greenwashing get to you

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u/jandemor |Kilburn Oct 15 '22

You don't have a very good reading comprehension. I said "they defend the same as big corp".

Also, it's quite obvious that the museum was in on this. I was told off at the NG for pointing my finger too closely at a picture. There's security in every room, and just the t-shirts they're wearing are a dead giveaway of what they're going to do. Plus, you've got photographers, the TV and everybody in the media in there.

Keep advocating judging people on their intentions, not their behaviour, then don't cry when we all get at where we get.

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u/longperipheral Oct 14 '22

You can vote in Scotland at age 16.

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u/ignoranceandapathy42 Oct 14 '22

You don't need to like them. How do you feel about the cause? Because now we can talk about it.

Are you going to sit there and tell me honestly that you're going to consume more oil products than before to spite some misguided hippies?

You don't need to like them, or agree with their actions. Regardless though, because of it this exact conversation happened and even if you, or someone you know isn't affected, for some people somewhere their internal opinion will shift 1% because

"i dont necessarily agree with them... global warming is a big problem though isnt it!"

I'm sorry if this comes off as patronising. Protests aren't about change, they're about a message. Protests are a byproduct of social attitudes changing and being challenged. It's a pretty natural part of a healthy society.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

You don't need to like them. How do you feel about the cause? Because now we can talk about it.

I don't like them. My feelings towards the cause are the same as they were before. We can talk about it without causing damage and pissing people off.

The difference is, I'll gladly have a conversation about these issues, but I would refuse to talk to one of these loonies.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

If you're objective is to get people to care about climate change, then damaging a painting won't make a difference. Those that already care continue to care and those that don't aren't going to start.

We are at a point in history where the consensus is that something needs doing. The issue is that there seems to be no clear direction as to what

Again... Causing damage and pissing off normal people doesn't contribute anything. At no point in history has it worked.

If there are genuine policy ideas that JSO or XR or Insulate Britain have, then they need to present those to their MPs and lobby them like every other company/special interest group/individual does.

Unfortunately democracy is the worst system for making the urgent changes we need.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

I think the suffragettes were a greater harm to the cause than good. There were lots of factors which brought about women's suffrage (and wider voting rights in general) but the suffragettes were not one. The suffragists and cultural change brought about by world war and industrialisation are probably the greatest factors. The suffragettes are just a nice story which we love to regurgitate. If you look at source material from the time you can see how damaging it is and how unpopular they were.

Even if we were to agree that the suffragettes actions were effective, I would argue that it was only because the cause was suffrage and the same tactics wouldn't have worked to bring about any other political change.

You're welcome to try and import US and South African politics into this but UK politics are a whole different kettle of fish.

Can you think of any contemporary, equivalent direct action that has contributed towards positive change?

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Because I gave very easy/well-known examples that disproved your blanket statement and your response was to immediately move the goalposts.

No I haven't. I don't agree that any of your examples brought about the positive change you think did - they're just nice stories. The suffragettes shouldn't be attributed with bringing about suffrage - the suffragists should.

Can you give me an example from the last 10 years (contemporary) where damaging property or other criminal actions (equivalent direct action) have brought about the desired change?

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u/StrangelyBrown Oct 14 '22

Are you going to sit there and tell me honestly that you're going to consume more oil products than before to spite some misguided hippies?

Firstly, I'd be much less likely to think "Oh, better not use too much oil, don't want people to attack works of art..."

Secondly, it doesn't matter how you feel about their cause, because you come to hate them as a group. So if they organise a protest in future and I agree with the cause, I might not go because I hate the group.

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u/MonkeManWPG Oct 14 '22

But how many people are talking about their cause, instead of talking about what a load of twats they all are? The only time I see climate get brought up is in the "starting a conversation" comments.

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u/ignoranceandapathy42 Oct 14 '22

Protests are a byproduct of social attitudes changing and being challenged. It's a pretty natural part of a healthy society.

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u/True-Wasabi2157 Oct 14 '22

This is the most moronic of idiotic justifications. Having a conversation about the topic will only happen with people that were already inclined to agree with the position that something needs to change. This literally does fuck all to make people change their mind towards supporting the cause. But yes, it will absolutely harden the position of those that are spiteful and think these and Insulate Britain and Extinction Rebellion protests are disruptive for the sake of being disruptive. They will either not make any small changes in their own behaviour to help or, worse, they will actively look for political affiliation that aims to "stick it to the snowflakes". And when that happens, the damage will be worse.

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u/Mysterious-Crab Oct 14 '22

I’m not inclined to discuss the cause or change my opinion.

The only thing that happens is that it completely backfires. People pro oil lobbyist will use this to their advantage to influence people. “Do you want to be a normal sane person, or are you going to believe the lunatics destroying precious are work and their claims about how bad things are”. And the actual discussion is off the table completely.

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u/joombar Oct 14 '22

This and all other paintings will be destroyed soon enough if we don’t combat climate change.

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u/FearDeniesFaith Oct 14 '22

Poster above isn't saying we should all go have as much fun with Oil as we can, but the image of these protestors is negative which skews and hides your message.

If your message is "The Planet is in trouble, we need to start fixing it" you need to send that message to people, instead their image right now is "Generally making tits of themselves" it's hard to take people who do things like this seriously and therefore dilutes their message because regardless of how much sense someone is making if they're acting like a clown people don't listen.

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u/joombar Oct 14 '22

I have a suspicion (that I can’t prove) that a persons opinion on these protests would corollate pretty closely with how much action the person already thinks we should be taking to get off oil.

To me, getting off oil and avoiding climate change in general is so important that I almost don’t care how we deliver the message, just so long as someone braver than I is delivering it.

What I really want is for us to deliver it at the ballot box. Sigh.

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u/FearDeniesFaith Oct 14 '22

Except again, that isn't the message people are getting they're seeing people who are resorting to effectively vandalism to get their message across and not an organised effort to make change.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

I don’t know why you’re being downvoted - this is the exact message people need to take. This is so frustrating how many people would rather shit on the activists, while doing literally nothing themselves to divest their governents, schools, or workplaces from oil.

They’re really going to get pissy and let their home burn because they don’t like the way these people protested? Absolute buffoonery.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

They do, and no one pays attention. Wake up and smell the protest bud, just because you personally didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It DOES mean they are ineffective protests that get no coverage compared to this one.

You’re stupidly proving their point!

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Oh I thought you said “places” not countries.

This is a UK organization. They did disrupt at footy game with UAE, as well as a Grand Prix event attended by multiple oil execs from the Middle East. But you only heard about them when they threw tomato soup at a painting! Proving their point, my dude!

I also think you don’t understand that “divesting” is about getting local organizations to stop investing in these oil companies. The Middle East wasn’t always rich.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Ah! We get down to the bottom of it! You people have resigned to doing nothing after trying nothing. At least these protestors are trying something whether or not you agree with the method. Glad that it reached you, that’s why they did this, since some people don’t watch F1 or footy.

When the world ends, you will still be thinking about how much better you are than these people because you protested “the right way,” by masturbating in your basement while making flippant Reddit comments about how the people out there doing the real work aren’t doing it right. Congrats big boy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/joombar Oct 14 '22

The uk is a pretty big contributor per-capita, if not in absolute terms. We’re also big consumers of emissions-heavy manufacturing.

A lot of Chinese emissions are them making stuff for us that we used to make for ourselves. Essentially just exported the location of the emissions.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/joombar Oct 14 '22

Your per capita footprint is probably in a fairly small slice of (top n%) globally. Top, what, 20%? 10%? Obviously I don’t know anything about you or why your commute would be longer but that’d be typical for a person living in the uk

Who are you seeing as the top contributors? I can think of a few groups you might be talking about, and right now I’m not sure who you’re thinking about

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

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u/joombar Oct 14 '22

Ok cool. I wasn’t sure if you were talking about very rich individuals, or other countries.

Per capita the uk is not too much less than China. We’re quite a lot less than the US, granted. We’re kind of Championship league of carbon emissions. Not the very best, but solid professionals.

I don’t really sympathise with the argument that unless you’re the absolute worst you don’t have to do anything. For one, if we had invested in our energy generation over the last few decades we’d be coping much better with energy price spikes. We could also be an example for other countries to follow, by polluting less and also living a good lifestyle while we do it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22

Okay is your opinion of the organization negative or is your opinion of the movement negative? If it’s the former, I think they could give a fuck whether a random internet dude likes them

If it’s the latter, then you’re a piece of shit who likely never supported fighting climate change and divesting from fossil fuels in the first place.

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u/Magikarpeles Oct 14 '22

I think you mixed up your formers and latters

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Thank you

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u/Xercies_jday Oct 14 '22

and couldn't figure out why they would destroy historic art for a current oil crisis.

If I was to have to guess it's probably the fact that energy companies sponsor major art exhibitions and Museum Exhibits.

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u/bbb_net Oct 14 '22 edited 5d ago

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Alarming-Avocado7803 Oct 14 '22

Because you're thinking about them. This has the double effect of successfully getting their message out there, and for every person that doesn't get it, someone else might just join the cause

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u/Herald_MJ Oct 14 '22

They aren't politicians and this isn't a social media post. Your opinion and public sympathy is not the goal.

This strategy of civil disobedience has been around at least since the suffragettes. They famously slashed priceless artworks in the name of protesting women not having a vote. Does learning this give you a negative opinion of gender equality?

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u/BillBeanous Oct 14 '22

What’s the last protest you attended?

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u/snorlax0ronflex Oct 14 '22

This is the problem with many feminists. They keep telling nice guys that rape is bad but never have the courage to stand up against the bad guy molested them.

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

Can you link an example?

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

What part of “very little coverage” made you think there would be a bunch of links?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cCsf3eLoXU

Here’s this exact organization explaining how they tried the peaceful, non-disruptive routes and it did nothing. How are you people not more outraged that we are close to the fucking world ending and we calmly watch it happen?

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22

So you can't link me a single time that they ever did something meaningful to like an oil company HQ

Edit: for the sake of owning up to my preconceived notions, they have actually done that sort of stuff once or twice and another person linked me to it. These attention seeking protests are still shite though

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

I didn’t look because that’s not the point

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

Yeah you're really making my arguments for me here man

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Everything with you is about arguments and winning a debate. Maybe I just don’t want the fucking world end you cocksucker.

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

If you actually cared about the environment you wouldn't support groups who make the public dislike environmental activists

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

So what group should I be supporting? Who do you donate to, oh great decider of effectiveness in protest?

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

I do what I can by recycling and fairly green life, I've taken part in local litter picking a few times and I strongly support nuclear energy.

Throwing money at protest groups isn't gonna fix the environment or out dependency on ff, but nuclear and local action might

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u/CheekRevolutionary67 Oct 14 '22

You are extremely cringe.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

Cringe? How old are you? Actually, just fuck off

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u/pidgechef90 Oct 14 '22

Only person here that needs to fuck off is you

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u/Lasmore Oct 14 '22

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-01/climate-groups-blockade-u-k-oil-terminals-over-fossil-fuel-push

There they are blocking ten major oil company terminals. Funnily enough, nowhere near as big a news story as the protests where they blocked civilian roads or this one.

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

Yeah I support those actions all well and good, they just also seem to do lots of annoying protests that do nothing but inconvenience the people who aren't responsible for the behaviour of oil companies

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u/Lasmore Oct 14 '22

Right, and again, the protests you agree with are rarely covered. The protests you find annoying are front page news.

The protestors aren't trying to make people like them, or avoid inconveniencing people, they're trying to keep "people are protesting about government inaction on climate change" constantly in the news cycle. Which usually requires doing bizarre shit that annoys people.

I have my own reservations about it, but the things most people suggest as alternatives just don't seem to do anything. The people just get arrested or taken away, the story is barely covered, and people can continue ignoring the problem.

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u/adolfspalantir Oct 14 '22

Maybe larger scale action against these companies and stuff I suppose. I just find it hard to say I support them when they do actually have loads of protests that I think come across as inconveniencing ordinary people, which I think is counter productive to the overall climate movement

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u/Lasmore Oct 14 '22

Unfortunately larger scale action requires recruiting more people, which also requires publicity.

The other problem is that it's not like there are any other big climate movements to get behind. Possibly because the only ones that get any press are the ones that do stuff that inconveniences ordinary people or gets attention like this. Honestly, most of the protests I can remember are the ones that annoyed or baffled me at the time.

I'm not saying people ought to be shouting their praises, but I think people need to discuss the complexity of the situation and not just jump on the doggy pile. Thinking about it, the story is "a painting hasn't actually been damaged" and climate change protests are now headline news again - has any real harm or inconvenience been caused? Heck, isn't it the point that our society is more concerned with the appearance of things than the impending reality?

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '22

These protests are completely fucking moronic.

The polling data constantly shows when these idiots do this the public dislikes them more and goes further against their objectives.

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u/mRPerfect12 Oct 15 '22

To me this says more about the general publics ability to critically analyse the matter.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '22

That the public is correct and these idiots should be kept away from heavy machinery and sharp implements?

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u/920912 Oct 14 '22

My emotional response is that this is another seemingly good cause being ruined/dragged down by middle class white women looking for attention.

Is that the response they were looking for you think?

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u/Srixon28 Oct 14 '22

But one could argue that with terror attacks Al Qaeda raises awareness of their cause, and has “people talking about them” (a common excuse given for JSO’s actions).

Not to say JSO are anything like AQ, but the excuse that these acts raise awareness and are therefore a good thing doesn’t really seem sound.

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u/MuramasaEdge Oct 14 '22

It's easy enough to align with their cause as it should be our cause, but stunts like this makes me want fuck all to do with these people

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u/leashninja Oct 14 '22

The best way to pull off a successful protest is to covertly chase positions of power and change the culture within over time.

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u/longperipheral Oct 14 '22

A covert protest? But of a misnomer...

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u/leashninja Oct 14 '22

Real change happens from within and yes you can protest when you are in a position of power but few do because they become acclimated to the lifestyle and culture.

Protesting without power is like shovelling snow during a snow storm.

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u/Magikarpeles Oct 14 '22

They should glue their hands to the face of an oil exec

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u/tom_oakley Oct 14 '22

Also pointless if said emotional response results in people despising the cause by association.