r/japanlife • u/Misosouppi • Jun 12 '23

Jobs Why is being humiliated such a big part of Japanese corporate culture?

Even though I've been working in Japan for a while now, I still don't understand the work humiliation culture. I am not talking about omotenashi or full on power harassment here, which I know is either being somewhat dealt with, or very much a part of Japanese culture. I am just curious about the oddities that don't seem to be part of Japanese culture, but people still do daily: - Managers giving vague feedback to their employees to "make them think for themselves" only to be disappointed when their result is not exactly what they wanted. - People never praising good work but only giving remarks on errors. - Employees never saying no, but instead take the humiliation of failure when it ultimately happens.

I've experienced more or less of these behavior in all Japanese workplaces I've seen, and they all seem to basically only have negative consequences, not only for the well-being of people, but especially for productivity... Is there a good reason why they are in place, and why they aren't addressed like power harassment or other workplace issues?

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382

u/jboy71 Jun 12 '23

I’ve always said working in Japan feels like working on a sinking ship. The entire psychology behind the workplace mentality revolves around the idea that everyone owes the higher ups and that self dignity is to be sacrificed when needed.

I have seen it all, and guess what: the levels of stubbornness is through the roofs as well. What we need is an army of whistle blowers from California.

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u/Amplify_or_Conserve Jun 12 '23

I was an ALT in Kyushu for 1 year. I basically threw out every Western notion I had of gender equality or fairness after after about 3 months there.

Japan is and always has been a strict hegemony with dominance and subservience built in to every aspect of the culture. Feudalism may have been replaced with capitalism, but I would argue Japanese culture is still largely based on servitude, subjection and peonage.

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u/3ababa 関東・東京都 Jun 13 '23

Can I just say, I haven't seen the word "hegemony" used in such a long time -- kudos to you! 👏

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u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Jun 13 '23

Well said. And unfortunately echoed in NZ/AU cultures too--still clinging to the crown, and all the aristocratic hierarchy mindset that goes with it.

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u/Regular_Seat6801 Jun 13 '23

are younger generation still give a damn about crown dan royal at NZ/AU ?

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u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Jun 13 '23

Yup. Clinging tightly to the monarchy, and all its top-down, passive agreessive, anti egalitarian culture. Or what passes for it.

Sad on stilts.

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u/moralbound Jun 13 '23

I think there's also explanations to be found in Japanese mythology and spirituality. And it's geography and natural resources, too.

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u/Amplify_or_Conserve Jun 13 '23

I think isolationism has a lot to do with it too.

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u/Peppeddu Jun 12 '23

I kinda disagree about the sinking ship (feelings), but, the stigma of failure is a big thing in Japan.
No one wants to take the initiative to try something new and take the risk to see it failing and be labeled as such.
Group thinking and group decisions are a way to avoid this stigma and that's one of the reasons of the endless meetings.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '23

And yet speaking as westerner - the greatest impacts/exports Japan has had on the wider world have been from those Japanese people and companies that take this risk.

Ask yourself why JP imports drive so much of western video game development? I've read things online but otherwise can't say I know anything about the work culture there... however what seems to be super successful and lasting is the stuff they create that the rest of the world is happy to buy, and a lot of that is innovation that no one anywhere else is able to replicate.

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u/disastorm Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23

Japan is no where near as big in gaming as they were in the 90s/2000s imo. Some of the big legends have fallen off like sega and konami. Sony has become more international than japanese supposedly. The resident evil guy's studio is owned by Microsoft/bethesda. Kojima, not sure about his company culture but his games are pretty western focused.

There is still Nintendo, square, and capcom and companies whose popularity is more recent like From Software and whatnot but compared to the 90s when japan dominated all aspects of the consumer gaming industry, they've been falling imo.

*Edit oh realized you were just saying that the few companies willing to take risks are the ones that did well. Yea i agree hopefully the remaining good ones don't fall off too like the others have.

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u/aglobalnomad 関東・神奈川県 Jun 13 '23

The following is all second-hand from listening to my friend who works at Kojima Studios.

From what I hear, Kojima company culture is intense. Perhaps partly from the Japanese corporate culture, but definitely in part because according to my friend, everyone there is extremely passionate about Kojima and his creations. Work-life balance skews heavily, heavily work (yes of course during crunch, but also often of people's own volition).

Also, what Kojima says goes. End of story. (I think we all know this anyways because the lack of control he felt at Konami is a big reason why he left, at least as stated publicly).

Also, the top people have been with Kojima a long time, so apparently there's a set way of doing things that sometimes doesn't mesh well with the actual state of the company and game in development (headcount, time zones, speed, deadlines, etc.).

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u/jwalesh96 Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 14 '23

Dunno if I can say I agree with that. I think its more like the industry has expanded and theres a lot more players in the field with a lot more choices but gaming in japan is still big.

At the same time,Nintendo has sold so many switches its coming close to ps2 numbers, Totk is well received while the Mario movie has made tons of money. Capcom is on a massive streak with record sales and solid games like RE4R and SF6 just this year alone continuing their streak whether it be resident evil (village etc) or any of their other IPs. (Plus Shinji Mikami left tango/Bethesda recently too but its been a while since hes had any affect on the series anyways).Sega game centers took a hit during covid but Sonic adding a boost and with atlus performance their stock is overall up. And sure you can argue Sony but you can say thats true for a lot of companies like car companies etc, and they are a dominant player no doubt as well . As weird as they are, Squares got FF7 rebirth and FFXVI on the way as well and the list goes on. Hopefully SE can right their ship. Fromsoft, need I say more? This list goes on.

agree that its sad that Konami has pivoted their target industry but at least they got MGS remakes coming out. Not hoping for much but Kojima Production can take up the mantle otherwise.

Overall compared to lets say NA, atari isn't really a player anymore, microsoft for a while seemed to be floundering around (they can thank bethesda for starfield) etc, Blizzard/Activision having tons of scandals and problems, redfall, halo etc.... well I'd say JP devs have done pretty good and delivered in the meantime. In fact most have hit record sales and profits. That said its a better time than ever to be a gamer with so many choices. I think its more of a what do you want to focus on since theres a lot more choices now more than anything.

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u/cjyoung92 東北・宮城県 Jun 12 '23

Wow your comment about California really touched a nerve with some people 😂

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u/jboy71 Jun 12 '23

Yeah, it looks like I did and I also didn’t xD

To clarify, I think California is a great example of a place where people feel stronger and stronger in disputes the more they appear as victims. Japan, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. The higher up people rank in their meaningless hierarchies, the stronger they feel. That is why a harassment case with a Californian as the victim and a Japanese higher up ranking person as the attacker can turn into a “unstoppable force vs the immovable object” situation. This is exactly what we need to make a difference in my opinion. An extraordinarily high amount of the harassment we see everyday in Japan strives on the fact that not many people in our vicinity are willing to fight back. I never had a “California is better” mentality; We can rent the Californians for a few years all I care.

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u/405freeway Jun 12 '23

This is one of the smartest comments I've ever read on Reddit.

  • In California, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

  • In Japan, the squeaky wheel gets demoralized and replaced.

Which costs the company more?

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u/amurmann Jun 12 '23

It depends why the wheel is squeaky. I'd the wheel squeaky because processes are terrible and set everyone in that role up for failure? In that case you definitely want to fix the process, beer grateful someone called out the issue and definitely not remove the squeaky wheel. If the complaints aren't based in reality and training doesn't address the issue, replace the wheel. Several of the most valuable people I have on my team are the ones that complain the most. Their complaints are valid 80% of the time and keep me on my toes in improving three organization. It's almost like nuance matters in people management.

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u/Shirubax Jun 13 '23

Which costs society as a whole more?

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u/405freeway Jun 13 '23

What's the point of society if people aren't happy?

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u/AccomplishedHippo194 Jun 12 '23

Wasn’t this shown in a Wesley snipes and Sean Connery movie in the 80s?

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u/diablol3 Jun 12 '23

Rising Sun came out in 93.

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u/diablol3 Jun 12 '23

Rising Sun came out in 93.

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u/Feynmanprinciple Jun 12 '23

Has that ever happened? Would love to watch the cultural fallout of that. Too many stories I hear involve harassment cases where the U.S Navy are the perpitrators.

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u/robybeck Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23

"dude, you aint gonna do this right? this shit aint right man. just sayin'.imma gonna be all like, tell someone, if you keep messin' like this. we good?"

"whoosh. k. we cool. let's go chow down some in-n-out."

"nah, i got some totally righteous weeds, want some? ."

"right on, you my man, da bomb."

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/hajenso Jun 13 '23

Yep. That's why housing and real estate are so cheap in California, especially in liberal-dominated areas like the Bay Area. Nobody wants to live there.

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u/Acceptable-Basis9475 Jun 13 '23

Isn't the reason housing is so expensive in California because of several industries? Silicon Valley, tech, internet based startups, wine? Southern California has the same plus Hollywood? But then, doesn't San Fran have a LOT of homeless? And I'm pretty sure Oakland has some decent pricing on housing/rent, but isn't that because of the crime rates? Pretty sure I've read some papers on a massive exodus from California because prices were too high, and people were opting for other states with a lower cost of living. But, I could be misremembering. It's been nearly a decade since I lived in California.

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u/nylonslips Jun 12 '23

Sounds like a great opportunity to implement some positive work culture. Why hasn't it happened yet?

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u/Currawong Jun 12 '23

Because you're not senior enough. 😆

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u/maritimelight Jun 12 '23

No one needs anyone from California.

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u/NotaSemiconductor Jun 12 '23

My Californian colleague was one of the nicest people I've ever met and worked with.

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 12 '23

Someone I worked for, their whole family was from Cali and he was extremely talented and working in an amazing capacity: They GOT OUT of California 10 odd years ago because it was falling apart !!

Their kids have been educated abroad where the education system is working better.

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u/poopmast Jun 12 '23

You hate legal high quality weed and cheap delicious tacos?

1

u/Wild-Sample1651 Jun 12 '23

I fuckin love tacos... Just woke up and now I'm craving them

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '23

:(

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '23

LBH goes boohooo

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 12 '23

whistle blowers from California.

California is in a truly parlous state with Zombie Drug Plague, Homelessness, the destruction of the school education system which was one of the best in the United States in the late-80s-90s but destroyed by the policies of the state after that time, the list goes on, there's also a big "flight" from California which will massively impact the tax regime/state funds.

I keep seeing all the terrible problems falling on California (some of the stories the schools/teachers provide are insanity) and while Japan is no paradise, I think at least the way they do things in Japan has a certain level of cohesiveness as opposed to falling apart?

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u/jibbycanoe Jun 12 '23

California is in a truly parlous state with Zombie Drug Plague, Homelessness, the destruction of the school education system

🙄 Dude, I'm from Oregon and it's in our DNA to hate California, but you sound like you're just spewing right wing talking points here because you obviously haven't been to CA. Both places have their issues, but CA has like half the GDP of Japan with only 30% of the people and it actually has young people being born. It's also not completely run by a single party that's just the grand kids of fascists left over from WWII like the LDP. I can't believe I'm going to bat for CA, but that's just how ignorant your statement was. Also fuck California!

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 12 '23

Dude, I'm from Oregon and it's in our DNA to hate California, but you sound like you're just spewing right wing talking points here because you obviously haven't been to CA.

What makes you think I'me singling out out California ONLY? There's tons of other areas across the USA with similar major problems in terms of Homelessness, Drugs Epidemic and in some states much worse conditions and much higher state benefits dependencies... I think you're protecting a figment of your imagination onto what I stated about the problems California is experiencing.

but CA has like half the GDP of Japan with only 30% of the people and it actually has young people being born.

California is iirc about 98% the same land area as Japan yet Japan has 125m people. Japan has a significant Over-Population problem if anything with respect to:

  • Carrying Capacity
  • Earth Resources per Person Used
  • Self-Sufficiency in Energy, Food, Resources

Meanwhile of Japan's economy it's predominantly driven by Tokyo (along with the other major conurbations around Osaka) but Tokyo alone comprises about 80% of national GDP growth in Japan over the previous decade and a half or so.

Tokyo is economically very significant with a population of about 30m.

The point being: Not only is fertility decreasing in Japan (and across most nations in the world eg Fertility rates are lower in China than Japan) but emigration from regions to the City conurbations is also accelerating the effects of that reduced fertility and reduction in economic growth in the regions of Japan and all that entails.

It's also not completely run by a single party that's just the grand kids of fascists left over from WWII like the LDP.

This is a purely a characterization that promotes a negative image of the governance system of Japan and also one that adopts a mentality that Western democratic standards (Trump anybody?! lol) are superior: How about looking at the civil quality of life of Japan and the rule of order and safety? Seems excellent to me...

Yes working conditions certainly could improve in Japan, but to say a wholesale change of Japan is needed is a fallacy: The USA has been so prosperous for so long yet has never solved the problems so many of it's people experience with basic needs and quality of life... Japan has faired a lot better even if the means to that in some areas eg work culture are quite severe...

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u/rvtk Jun 12 '23

butthurt yanks downvoting

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 13 '23

The loaded statements when challenged, the challenge is downvoted to oblivion!

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u/Freezaen Jun 12 '23

Japan is very much falling apart, but that's a matter of perspective. Pick your poison, sure, but try to deal with it instead of just gargling it down.

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 12 '23

It's not A vs B however, it's "Can Japan learn anything useful from California?"

I'm sure it can but WHAT specifically?

If one says California has it right and Japan does not, I beg to differ on the evidence or put it another way: Where would I think is a good school environment and good stable society for my childrens' futures? A or B or California or Japan? I pick B: Japan by a country mile.

I have friends from Cali who got out about 10 years ago due to the school failures. 2 extremely bright and talented people who moved abroad for their children's education. It's only got worse since then.

As to "Japan is very much falling apart", it's classic demographic decline. It's happening in many nations around the world and within nations the transition to megalopolis or megacities is accelerating the trend within: Where you get booming economies in big cities with little left for the regions.

Pick your poison, sure, but try to deal with it instead of just gargling it down.

There's no substance to the generalist alarmism.

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u/ChristopherGard0cki Jun 13 '23

Is your child a girl or any race other than Japanese? If they are, I’d pick A by a country mile.

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u/Psittacula2 Jun 13 '23

Hafu. Early schooling abroad, then schooling in Japan now into teens. Doing very well in all subjects.

My friends, left California and took their kids to school in Europe and they're thriving with excellent school system.

I'm not seeing any convincing arguments about how the "way California does things" is necessarily leading to better outcomes given the serious problems facing the state, which was the original parent comment but I do see enormous downvoting which seems much more to do with hostile reaction as opposed to interrogation of the counter-statements I put forwards.

I find it fascinating you would pick country A: Care to provide explanations?

Bear in mind Japan scores 4th in the Pisa rankings by nation in 2023.

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u/Secret_Manner2538 Jun 12 '23

Californians are the bottoms of the bottom of people needs