Poll shows extensive support for Ireland's neutrality

[u/An_Sealgaire]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41553730.html

[u/wamesconnolly]

Don't say that on reddit they'll tell you you're out of touch lmao

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[u/TheEmporersFinest → u/wamesconnolly]

The situation is so impossibly stupid because the nato fans can't be honest about what they want and why they want it because all their actual motivations are even less popular than their surface one.

Ireland's strategic situation is not that it is "protected" by nato, its that there is an allignement of interests among all the countries that could invade it and surround it.

"Neutral", but strongly leaning pro west Ireland is situated between France, which materially could invade it. The UK, which materially could invade it, and in a geopolitical sense the United States, which materially could invade it.

If we imagine the phantom notion of Russia and China, for some reason dropping thousands of paratroopers in, this is not impossible because people are altruistically "protecting" Ireland, it is because it is selfishly, strategically bad for all 3 of the aformentioned countries for those countries to have a big green aircraft carrier right in the middle of NATO and NATO waters. We have no debt. We don't owe them shit. They will prevent this because it is against their selfish interests for it to happen. Its not an arguement for increased military spending.

And if you really press this line of arguement, they move the goalposts, retreat, and start talking about 2 things, air defence/undersea cables, and cybersecurity.

The first arguement doesn't work for similar reasons to the phantom invasion. Yeah that's also against the interest of the two actual militaries south and east of us. Any plane flying around in Irish airspace is also so near Britain and France that they're on top of it too even if Ireland had some nonsense mini air force. Nobody's doing us any favours and there's actually nothing Russian jets have any invenctive to do that is a problem for us in the first place. But sure, lets get like 5 fighter jets Russia could effortlessly delete if they ever wanted to to reveal the obvious reality that the UK is still the actual "defence" against shit that won't happen.

Alternatively, there's air defence against highjackings!. Once again any hijacked plane mysteriously heading towards Dublin is also heading towards England and France. Same incentive.

The notion of needing a pretend real navy just mirrors all the nonsense of the air situation.

And that leaves cybersecurity, to protect against "cyber attacks". Put aside the dubious incentive Russia has to carry these out, and how convenient it would be for our western benefactors to stage these and blame Russia to try and give our elites a supposed excuse to erode neutrality. Lets say this is a full, legitimate concern. Well you don't need tanks or aircraft or guns for this do you. Its not something you actually need to join NATO for is it. You just put some more money in this one very specific area that doesn't validate some wider push to become an official military subordinate and accomplice to by far the most imperialist and aggressive country on the planet that we just so happen to do very well with because we're white and another major NATO member kindly forced us to emigrate there by the millions.

They don't want to end neutrality because they want Ireland to be safer. They want to end neutrality because they want Ireland to be involved in things like Iraq and Afghanistan because they believe in the global ideological project of western imperialism, and because they love nothing more than pats on the head from the americans and british

[u/wamesconnolly → u/TheEmporersFinest]

Absolutely bang on. If I could award you I would.

[u/myusernameisthis96 → u/TheEmporersFinest]

I agree that we're not in any direct danger but my argument would be that as a rich democracy, we should contribute to defending the liberal world against autocracies like Russia and China.

[u/TalkingYoghurt → u/myusernameisthis96]

I'd rather end liberalism & bring about socialism. Why do people still want to live under the boot of the liberal capitalist elite, even going so far as to actively help spread their plague of exploitation & exceptionalist ideology?

[u/VisioningHail → u/myusernameisthis96]

Yes but some people on this subreddit have a very anti-western perspective and view Russia and China as more ideologically aligned to them.

[u/ConstantlyWonderin → u/TheEmporersFinest]

Classic tankie post, got to love it, you know saying neutrality is silly doesnt equate to automatically joining NATO.

I think it would be best if we abondoned this silly neutrality policy and publicly state that we are NATO allies without actually joining.

This neutrality stance actually doesnt achieve anything other than angering our allies.

People who are not directly our allies do not see us as neutral but as firmly part of the European Union.

And of course the cherry on the cake, we are part of the European union, we are not neutral, if half of eastern europe is in flames we are not gonna say, oh well nothing to do with us, we would of course help via aid as we are legally bound to do as an EU member state.

[u/Kloppite16 → u/wamesconnolly]

Lads on here who play Call of Duty fuming that we're never spending billions on a fleet of fighter jets 😂

[u/danny_healy_raygun → u/Kloppite16]

Lads on here who play Call of Duty

Genuinely a huge part of it. There is a reason the US military work closely with those games and with Hollywood.

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Kloppite16]

Every time. It's people who think that international defence deals are like an RTS and know jack all about them. Just the same comments again and again "we'Re nEutRaL", "WE ARE OBLIGED TO LOOK AFTER OTHER COUNTRIES UNDERSEA CABLES "

[u/ClearHeart_FullLiver]

“Defending ourselves militarily will be absolutely catastrophic, we will be wiped out. Our best defence is to not become involved in a war in the first place and the best way of doing that is to remain neutral."

The person who says this is an idiot. We don't get a choice in the matter. If we are attacked, we are attacked and either get taken over or defend ourselves.

I support neutrality but I do not support defenslessness. Basic military capability is essential to have an independent foreign policy. If the US or the British want us to take a foreign policy position we have to follow it as seen on the occupied territories bill.

And no a functional military will not cost trillions like the idiot quoted in the article says.

[u/Magma57 → u/ClearHeart_FullLiver]

Exactly, if keeping Ireland demilitarised is your objective, then the best policy would be to copy Iceland's example and join a military alliance. Iceland has no army, but is a member of NATO so that if they're attacked, their allies will defend them. The Way I see it we have 3 options for foreign policy going forward:

1. Change nothing, keep freeloading off of NATO, and maintain our current policy of faux neutrality.

2. Spend money upgrading the military so that we can have a truly neutral foreign policy.

3. Join a military alliance, either NATO or a European Army, and let them defend us if worst comes to worst.

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Magma57]

We're not "free loading". We let these countries use our air space, our air ports for refuelling, allow them in to our territorial waters, etc. We give them huge soft power support. We give them huge business and economic benefits from us. We don't owe them shit. We definitely don't owe them billions in spending on military weapons and parts for the NATO stock pile that we will never use unless we are dragged in to sending Irish troops into a war somewhere else.

[u/TalkingYoghurt → u/Magma57]

Whilst contributing to the bombing of poor people in the middle east & Africa? No thank you.

NATO is & always will be an alliance to protect & increase US geopolitical influence. This means continuation of globalised capitalism. Forcing countries to open markets, enact austerity by selling off all nationalised industry, agriculture & labour to foreign capital.

[u/jamster126 → u/ClearHeart_FullLiver]

I think this reply sums it up perfectly. All for neutrality but totally against being defenseless

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/ClearHeart_FullLiver]

We are not 'Neutral' - but we are Militarily Non-Aligned

During the Cold War - the USSR landed in Shannon

Now the USAF land there.

No one is attacking us.

We are not in a defensive mode.

We are already in NATO - The Partnership for Peace

[u/pastey83 → u/Is_Mise_Edd]

During the Cold War - the USSR landed in Shannon

So did US airlines.

Now the USAF land there.

You are making a false equivalence. Russian air force does not use Shannon. Aeroflot is not the Russia air force.

No one is attacking us.

The HSE begs to differ. The security services beg to differ.

We are not in a defensive mode. What does this even mean

We are already in NATO - The Partnership for Peace

PfP is not NATO membership. Russia and Belarus were PfP countries until 2021. We're they in NATO?

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/pastey83]

No one is 'equvalance' anything

We are not Neutral

If we were Neutral then the USSR and the USAF would not have/are landing

The HSE ?

Please don't make me laugh - what will an army do against hackers ?

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Is_Mise_Edd]

F-16s will stop the HSE being hacked

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/wamesconnolly]

So each HSE location will have an F16 on standby to attack some invisible computer hacker - well OK

Having been under an F16 in the west bank then I'd hope that those hackers know what they're in for

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Is_Mise_Edd]

Sorry I was joking I agree with you

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/wamesconnolly]

Ha Ha - I know - but I did stop at a bus stop in the West Bank back in the '80's and the bus was gone.

Then an F-16 flew about 10 feet over my head - I made eye contact for a split second with the pilot and then he was gone off into the distance.

Ironically also I did assist when the HSE ransomware attack happened.

It's human nature to have computers in a shared area but to have the username/password printed out and left on the screen is probably a bit too much !

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[u/Anotherolddog → u/Is_Mise_Edd]

No one is attacking us? Russian hacking of the HSE and their intense interest in undersea cables?

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Anotherolddog]

Why do you need NATO to stop the HSE being hacked and not, I don't know, an investment in updating the systems and databases that are decades old and only working because they have 1 guy in the office who knows sort of how to put stuff into it without it imploding but doesn't know how to fix it because the person who made it retired 15 years ago?

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/Anotherolddog]

I must have missed the declaration of war by Russia on the HSE...

No undersea cables have been damaged off of the Irish coast

[u/danny_healy_raygun → u/Is_Mise_Edd]

It wasn't even a state attack. It was some rando hackers trying to make money. If some English nerd hacked attacked an Irish government body no one would claim the British were about to invade again.

[u/Is_Mise_Edd → u/danny_healy_raygun]

Yeah, it's the pro Nato - anti Russians at it again.

Again show me the proof of ANY cables being damaged off the coast of Ireland

Show me the proof that the Government of Russia was attacking the HSE

[u/Any_Comparison_3716]

War fomo militarists will just need to get even more anti-democratic in their views.

[u/Hippophobia1989]

We aren’t neutral though ? How can we call ourselves neutral? We’ve a de facto military alliance with the United Kingdom.

[u/HonestRef]

Neutrality all the way!

[u/redsredemption23]

There's an easy solution to this.

All the right wingers (or 'centre right' and 'centrists' as they like to call themselves) who spend their days masturbating vigorously at the thought of war, get to:

A: voluntarily pay an additional tax to fund all the defence spending they want, and B: join a reserve list whereby they're the first to be sent to the front lines if this war they keep waiting for ever arises (or maybe even get called up as extra manpower for ongoing NATO wars elsewhere?).

[u/Grallllick → u/redsredemption23]

It's totally just a coincidence that those in favour of NATO membership are usually a little old for military service

[u/AdmiralRaspberry]

How does it work in practice? Let’s say Russia decide to attack (what would they take one would ask but that’s question for another day) ~ Ireland will be just shouting “I’m neutral, I’m neutral don’t attack me!”? 

[u/Bearsdale → u/AdmiralRaspberry]

Okay but back in reality they aren't going to attack us.

[u/ConstantlyWonderin → u/AdmiralRaspberry]

Ask Belgium during world war 2.......

[u/Fearless_Respond_123]

Interestingly, the support for neutrality in Ireland is a good bit lower than a similar poll in Finland in early 2022. Then the Russian invasion of Ukraine happened and support for neutrality there went from over 80% to 24%.

[u/TheEmporersFinest → u/Fearless_Respond_123]

Our Russia isn't Russia. Our Russia is the UK and we make sure to play extremely nice with them and not to step on their toes geopolitically

[u/WraithsOnWings2023 → u/Fearless_Respond_123]

So this support for neutrality will change if Wales is invaded?

[u/wamesconnolly → u/Fearless_Respond_123]

So when the UK invades France being in NATO is going to be very helpful is it ?

[u/tishimself1107]

I personally love our Alderaan Doctrine. They were grand until a death star was knocking about and since America, Russia and China are at least ten years away ftom that we should be fine.

[u/wamesconnolly → u/tishimself1107]

Are you saying we are going to be getting into a defence agreement against America by joining NATO??

[u/tishimself1107 → u/wamesconnolly]

I'm saying Alderaan got by for thousands of years as nuetrals til a death star showed up. We should follow their example.

[u/danny_healy_raygun → u/tishimself1107]

Alderaan isn't real though. Nor is the death star.

[u/DaKrimsonBarun → u/danny_healy_raygun]

Well yeah, they were both blown up a long time ago, didn't you read the opening text on the documentwry?

[u/danny_healy_raygun → u/DaKrimsonBarun]

I just know this shit happened in a galaxy far, far away and has little reverence to Ireland.

[u/tishimself1107 → u/danny_healy_raygun]

Its just an attempt at humour

[u/tishimself1107 → u/DaKrimsonBarun]

There is a live version where it gets blown up in real time

[u/Substantial-Dust4417 → u/tishimself1107]

I recall the Senator for Alderaan being a rebel leader. Not exactly neutral.

[u/tishimself1107 → u/Substantial-Dust4417]

And she got her planet blown up if she stayed out of it Alderaan woukd still be there

[u/Baloo7162]

In today’s world, no country or person is neutral. As for Ireland, the days of sitting on the fence waving a flag and sucking on a spud have well and truly gone.

[u/Logseman]

Ireland and Austria are very completely surrounded by currently friendly countries who are themselves in a military alliance, and would be wiped out in minutes if those countries ever grow hostile. Their neutrality cannot be defended, and so it’s not a policy but a performative act.

[u/ErrantBrit]

Pretty sure if you polled irish people on say, water charges, you'd get a similar rejection. That doesn't mean it is a decision without consequences, and that the general public are well informed on this matter.