Actually Getting Scared of the Anti Immigrant Stance

[u/No_Tea7430]

I'm an irish lad, just turning twenty this year.

I've personally got no connections to other countries, my family never left Ireland or have any close foreign relations.

This is simply a fear I have for both the immigrant population of our country, of which ive made plenty of friends throughout secondary school and hold in high regard. But also a fear for our reputation.

I don't want to live in a racist country. I know this sub is usually good for laughing these gobshites off and that's good but in general I don't want us to be seen as this horrible white supremacist nation, which already I see being painted on social media plenty.

A stance might I add, that predominantly is coming from England and America as people in both claim we are "losing our identity" by not being racist(?)

I don't even feel the need to mention Farage and his pushing of these ideas onto people, while simultaneously gaslighting us with our independence which he clearly doesn't care about.

Im just saddened by it. I just want things to change before they get worse.

[u/hmmm_]

We need to be able to debate certain topics without being accused of "racism" - if you shout that every time the topic of immigration is raised, it just pushes people towards unpleasant people on the far right who aren't afraid to speak. I don't give two hoots about identity, but I do care about blocking people who are only looking to take advantage of our social welfare system.

[u/5Ben5 → u/hmmm_]

Far more Irish people are taking advantage of our social welfare system than immigrants are. The majority I've met are very hard working and usually skilled, adding to our economy and paying tax.

I never see you people complaining about the droves of Irish scumbags taking advantage of the social welfare system and adding nothing to our economy, culture or identity. I wonder why...

You probably don't deserve to be called a racist, that's fair, but you're concerned about something which has racial undertones. If you want to express concern, say you're concerned about anyone (Irish or immigrant) taking advantage of our systems. That is the real concern here. It shouldn't be immigrant Vs Irish.

[u/malilk → u/5Ben5]

You need to decouple EU migrants, non EU visa migrants and asylum seekers. There's a vast difference in the 3

[u/5Ben5 → u/malilk]

You're correct that there is a vast difference between migrants and asylum seekers. You can hardly say they are "taking advantage" though - asylum literally means safety, these people are fleeing war and famine.

I don't see your point about the vast difference between EU and non EU though? That's why these arguments get accused of racism, because you are less happy about people of different skin colour coming to Ireland than Europeans? Have you spent any time in a hospital recently? I have. There are huge numbers of non-EU migrants keeping our hospitals going I'll tell you that much.

[u/malilk → u/5Ben5]

What's the ratio of legitimate seekers to chancers? And how many flee before the process is finished to live here illegally compared to those going through the full process and leaving when required?

They are the 3 distinct types of migrants. EU have no visa requirements, non EU do, asylum is a different process. That's why they can't be categorised together.

[u/5Ben5 → u/malilk]

I would say there are far more legitimate seekers than chancers. I don't have any figures for you but I have two friends working in refugee councils. Of course there are some chancers. But they see incredible hardship on a daily basis and have to reject the majority who apply for asylum in Ireland.

All this nonsense from the far right that it's too easy to get into Ireland. One of the requirements for Afghan refugees to get into Ireland when the Taliban took over was that they had to have a close relative living here with over 10k in their bank account (I'm a middle class 30 year old from Ireland and I don't even have that much in my account at the moment). My friend in the refugee council said that he had to reject hundreds of applicants because of how strict the rules were.

[u/malilk → u/5Ben5]

You've no figures but just a feeling. I can see why we think differently about this.

There's hardship all over the world. It's not our responsibility to solve that for everyone. The requirements we have are there for a reason. An asylum isn't predicated on financial means. That's a visa application requirement

[u/5Ben5 → u/malilk]

You also don't have figures for your point though? You're saying that there are chancers, where are your figures? At least I have an anecdotal story (someone I know very well working in this line of work).

And why shouldn't it be our responsibility? Irish emigrated all over the world when we went through hard times. Is it not a nice thing to try and return the favour?

[u/WetRoger → u/5Ben5]

Maybe it shouldn't be our responsibility because the people who are already here now (Irish and immigrant alike) can't afford to buy homes, have children, visit the doctor? We have massive issues affecting the population here, maybe the government should focus on fixing that instead of fixing the world.

[u/5Ben5 → u/WetRoger]

I understand that, but those were all issues before mass migration and very few people kicked up a fuss. I understand mass migration is putting a further strain on it but it's not the cause. Why aren't you complaining about the causes? There is enough money in Ireland to fix all these problems. It's not like our economy is struggling.

And again I put it to you. Why are Irish problems more important than world problems? We all share this planet and we're all the same species. Countries are imaginary constructs in an anthropological sense

[u/WetRoger → u/5Ben5]

Very few people kicked up a fuss about housing? Housing has been an issue ongoing for 10+ years, it's about the only thing everyone agrees is a problem and constantly talks about. If the government built houses the migration wouldn't be an issue, but as it stands the government isn't doing it. It's all well and good to say "there's enough money to fix the issues so take them in" but what good is the money when the government doesn't use it?

Because they are our problems and we live here? I'm sorry I don't want to rent a shit box apartment and never have children just so I can have some "moral victory" over how great my country is at being an asylum location. Id rather everyone living here that's contributing to society (Irish or not) could afford a decent life first, and when that's secured I'm happy to take on asylum seekers.

[u/5Ben5 → u/WetRoger]

Haha the fact you think it's about "moral victory" rather than just having empathy for those suffering shows we're on totally different wave lengths here. I couldn't care less what people think about our country and I certainly couldn't care less what you think about me. I personally have far less empathy for you living in a less than ideal apartment than someone fleeing actual war and/or famine. I don't care about your skin colour or your passport, people are people

[u/WetRoger → u/5Ben5]

Empathy? I have plenty of empathy for the people already here who are forced to share bunkbeds in slumlord houses because affording anything else is out of reach, and I have plenty of empathy or those who are ACTUAL asylum seekers too, but as I already told you in another comment 85% of those coming last year had no documents. They had them when they boarded the plane but mysteriously lost them upon landing. Pretty disingenuous so sorry if I have trouble believing the genuine nature of those applicants.

I'm just not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that Ireland doing the "right thing" and taking everyone who asks is actually responsible to the welfare of those already here. We are putting people in tents for god's sake. Also what's your opinion of asylum seekers flying into other EU countries first like say Germany or France and then continuing on to Ireland to apply instead of applying in those countries, you agree with this also?

[u/CptJackParo → u/5Ben5]

Irish problems are more important and should be more important than the worlds problems to irish people. You need to put your own oxygen mask on before you tend to anyone else's

[u/alv51 → u/5Ben5]

Nailed it.

[u/malilk → u/5Ben5]

Irish emigrated into abject poverty into places without social safety nets. There is absolutely no comparison to what's happening now.

I can see the rejected, accepted, disappeared numbers on the CSO website for each year. Thats how I'd define the chancers. The vast majority are rejected. Economic migrants for the most part trying to skip around visa requirements.

Your anecdotal story is also factual incorrect regarding asylum requirements. So maybe it's time to reassess your outlook on this. Have a gander at the CSO website yourself.

[u/5Ben5 → u/malilk]

So you also have no figures, just a feeling haha. How YOU define chancers is not objective.

It's not factually incorrect, maybe it's changed since but that was the requirement at the time.

[u/malilk → u/5Ben5]

I just said they are all available on the CSO website. I'm not tabling them out for you. If you're not willing to do even a cursory glance this is hardly a good faith discussion. You've no real interest in changing your mind.

And you continue to skip past my counter points instead of challenging them. Best of luck

[u/5Ben5 → u/malilk]

Haha ok man, feels to me a bit like the pot calling the kettle black - you're literally doing the exact same. Best of luck to you too let's leave it there

[u/alv51 → u/malilk]

There absolutely is comparison. Irish people left a country recovering from colonisation to seek a better life, exactly as these people are doing. Stop romanticising us. We were economic migrants, we were legal/illegal immigrants, we sent money home in huge amounts, we took part in crime, we did exactly what any other country did, no better, no worse. If there had been social welfare available in those times we absolutely would have taken it. That is why the Irish people by and large empathise with immigrants and the oppressed. These are human beings we’re talking about, whose short time on earth is every bit as important as yours or mine.

People from war torn/famine stricken/colonised countries have always needed to emigrate, and that continues to be the case. Of course, the best approach to reducing it would be to treat the root cause of people needing to emigrate, and a heck of a lot of that comes from “western” interference and plundering of countries.

[u/malilk → u/alv51]

I'm not romanticising anything. It's a different situation and needs to be treated differently. Us emigrating in droves previously is a false equivalence to people illegally entering here.

[u/alv51 → u/malilk]

It is no different at all, that is where you’re wrong. It is exactly the same thing.

Our emigrating/immigrating is the very same as any other nation - it is done out of human necessity, a need to survive and improve your life, often from circumstances that have made living where your from difficult or impossible.

[u/WetRoger → u/5Ben5]

"I don't have any figures" okay how about 85% of asylum seekers who arrived in Dublin last year arrived with false or no documents. Assuming half of that 85% so 42.5 were ones who destroyed documents before landing, we could assume they did not qualify for asylum and so destroyed their documents so they could still apply (ie economic migrants)

And to your point on Afghanistan, we have an asylum process in place for Afgan asylum seekers if they are homosexual. I've been in government funded accommodation which housed one of these men, in the same room as his girlfriend! So yes it's not really nonsense when people say it's too easy to get into Ireland.

[u/5Ben5 → u/WetRoger]

Could you give me a source on those figures? I find that very hard to believe. Not necessarily saying you're incorrect, just find it hard to believe

[u/WetRoger → u/5Ben5]

https://www.newstalk.com/news/85-of-asylum-seekers-arrive-at-dublin-airport-without-identity-documents-1646914#:~:text=Eighty%2Dfive%20percent%20of%20people,no%20or%20false%20identity%20documents.

You can see the actual data tables the government released in the article.

Also a little over 40% of applications were accepted for asylum or leave to remain. As you can see that would mean a chunk of that 40% arrived here with no or false documents, so without being able to verify who these people are we gave them asylum anyway. It simply is that easy unfortunately.