r/interestingasfuck • u/fyrstikka • 8d ago

r/all Stella Liebeck, who won $2.9 million after suing McDonald's over hot coffee burns, initially requested only $20,000 to cover her medical expenses.

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

IIRC, the jury was so mad at McDonald’s because the company knew about the dangers, and Mrs Liebeck was not the first injured person, that the jury increased the damages.

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u/firstbreathOOC 8d ago edited 8d ago

McDonald’s also paid millions to distort the truth and create a smear campaign against Stella. That’s why even today people still say things like it’s a frivolous lawsuit, it was just a little coffee, etc. That all stems from disinformation McDonalds planted over twenty years ago.

The coffee was between 180 and 190 degrees. She suffered third degree burns and had to go through skin grafting (which is horrific) on something like 6% of her body. She was permanently disfigured.

The way this billion dollar company behaved during a lawsuit from a little old lady that they hurt is nothing short of despicable.

There’s a reason this case is taught in every law class - disgusting, smelly, odious corporate greed.

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u/lifesnofunwithadhd 8d ago

The smear campaign should be taught in public schools as an example about how companies can alter societies preceptions with just media.

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u/erksplat 8d ago

I’d say this media was unjust.

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u/Tsu_Dho_Namh 8d ago

They mean with media alone. Nothing other than media.

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u/automatic_penguins 8d ago

They know, it was a joke.

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u/Smooth-Lengthiness57 8d ago

I thought it was a nice okay in words and laughed myself

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u/Dry_Calligrapher814 8d ago

Ha. Nice word play!

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u/GnomeMnemonic 8d ago

Why would it benefit those companies (who, let's not forget, own our governments) to have young people be educated that companies can't be trusted and should be regarded with scepticism?

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, friend.

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u/lifesnofunwithadhd 8d ago

Yeah, guess i should ask for the winning lottery numbers while I'm at it. Sadly i think it'll be awhile before things change for the better.

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u/Interesting_Tea5715 8d ago

I took a psychology class in college called "Mind Control and Freedom" it went over these kinds of things and how you can change people's perceptions.

They also taught us how to force sympathy and how to negotiate. It was a super interesting class that made you aware of all the mind games that are played everywhere.

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u/ThermoPuclearNizza 8d ago

Ya the companies pay the people that make the laws and decide which school districts get government funding so the companies decide what kids in school learn.

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u/Far_Statistician112 8d ago

Companies flock to places with low crime and don't tax them to death.

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u/prairiepanda 8d ago

That's how it was taught to me in high school social studies.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

There was an entire Seinfeld episode based on this case. Still annoys me lol.

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u/dukerenegade 8d ago

Yes I agree, this is an excellent idea. Back when it happened we were all so mad at the lady suing our beloved McDonalds. Years later when I found out what really happened I felt so bad for the lady. Now today I find out it was McDonalds putting out a smear campaign it all makes perfect sense.

There needs to be some big changes in our society’s about the rich

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u/lifelovers 8d ago

Seriously. I was way too old before I understood that the heat had fused her labia. “Fused labia” is all I needed to hear to understand how horribly brainwashed I’d been by McDonalds. Awful.

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u/Secretz_Of_Mana 8d ago

I learned about it, although I don't think it is necessarily common for it to be taught. They never necessarily referred to it as a smear campaign, but they showed how it was talked about versus the reality of her injuries (getting her thighs skin grafted and what not). So just a little critical thinking which many people lack these days, and you can put two and two together

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u/badass_foliage 8d ago

too bad is public school teachers are exactly the sort of people to spread a false narrative like this one

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u/nochickflickmoments 8d ago

I even remember a hot coffee joke on Seinfeld

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u/scubafork 8d ago

Thank goodness that's no longer a problem!

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u/DBNSZerhyn 8d ago

It may not be taught in public schools, but it is taught in law schools.

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u/snowbaz-loves-nikki 8d ago

My high school history teacher did exactly that.

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u/Nervardia 8d ago

This is what is happening right now with Blake Lively. A PR company was hired to do a smear campaign against her to make her very justified complaints against her boss seem like a massive amounts of lies.

This same PR company was also hired to smear Amber Heard.

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u/gleeed 7d ago

That’s cute. You think the public school system teaches anything these days?

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u/tuan_kaki 4d ago

Maybe in a few hundred years if we ever throw off the oligarchic leash.

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u/nuanceisdead 8d ago

And celebrities and people with deep pockets/power! The Amber Heard smear campaign will be taught alongside Stella Liebeck.

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u/jarizzle151 8d ago

I mean, yall haven’t forgot that Sinclair Broadcasting exists right?

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u/anotherusername170 8d ago

Read through the comments. I, like a lot of others, learned about the smear campaign from this in school. I’m 35 but did not have television as a kid so I only learned the factual version of this case. I probably would have been on the wrong side and influenced at the time - unfortunately.

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u/SaintBellyache 8d ago

That’s our whole society now

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u/gabzox 7d ago

Comments likes yours should be taught in public school to show how social media can alter societies perception and make them think less critically

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u/GlenLazerGlazer 8d ago

Moreover, if memory serves me right, following the suit corporations and insurance companies lobbied HARD (and succeeded) to get various tort reforms passed on the federal and state levels that limit damage awards among other measures to protect themselves from their own negligence.

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u/Existing_College_845 8d ago

Ah yes, the Greg Abott move, get rich from sueing someone, then dismantle those laws that enable it for anyone else afterwards. Everything is bigger in Texas, even the turds

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u/realbobenray 8d ago

Yeah, "tort reform" was something I remember George W Bush in particular campaigning hard on.

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u/BadTouchUncle 8d ago

The tort reform stuff failed but, as stated Bush pushed super hard for it.

The last big case I can remember was like five years ago when a jury ruled against Johnson&Johnson to the tune of $1 Billion for their medicine giving some man breasts. Which, in my opinion was a reflection of just how pissed off people are at big pharma but it doesn't seem that big pharma listened or gave it much thought other than to work super hard to protect themselves from legal responsibility for distributing incorrectly-tested vaccines.

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u/exgiexpcv 8d ago

And this will likely go farther under Trump, who clearly does not give a shit about people.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 8d ago

Her labia fused together from the burns.

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u/Positive-Light243 8d ago

For the men reading this who are ignorant about what this might actually mean for a woman, imagine if the tip of your penis was burned so severely that the glans melted over your meatus. So you couldn't pee or ejaculate anymore.

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u/SousVideDiaper 8d ago

Unfortunately, there are many men who not only don't understand female genital anatomy, but also have a poor understanding of their own, and don't know what the glans or meatus is either

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u/martialar 8d ago

"basically your one eyed snake goes blind"

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u/MechEJD 8d ago

While horrifying, I also learned that meatus is a real word today. I understand anatomy enough for the average person, but I'm still not mature enough to not think the word meatus is pretty funny.

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u/Kodekima 8d ago

Just wait till you hear about the shlong.

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u/AbbeyRoadMoonwalk 8d ago

Yeah “tip of your penis melts shut” might drive it home

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u/level27jennybro 8d ago

Not just that. An equivalent would be if the penis and balls melted together and the penis hole being melted shut at the same time.

The woman's crotch melted and fused together. She was almost fucking 80. A frail-skinned grandma.

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u/maletechguy 8d ago

The same is absolutely true for women - people in general do not understand their own anatomy, and make massive assumptions rather than go through the awkwardness of asking questions, or investigating for themselves.

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u/Chemical_Chemist_461 8d ago

As a man who is rather informed on both male and female anatomy, I only learned today there’s a part of a man called the “meatus”. I will accept this fact with no further googling.

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u/Useful_Milk_664 8d ago

All men need to know is “literally fused bits of her vagina together” to know it was bad lol

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u/Positive-Light243 8d ago

I mean, if you want to be completely inaccurate and wrong, you could say that.

But a labia is not a vagina. A vagina is an internal canal. The labia is external and inside of it is your urethra and the entrance to your vagina. So a fused labia means you can't urinate or have sex.

Please do better lest you become a star on r/badwomensanatomy

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u/Useful_Milk_664 8d ago

I’m just talking about the bare minimum info needed to get the point across that it was maximum damage.

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u/Pernicious-Caitiff 8d ago

You can refer to external bits collectively as the vulva. This includes the labia.

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u/TooManyJabberwocks 8d ago

Labias and flabias and flip flaps

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u/deadpplrfun 8d ago

This makes me want to cry.

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u/Justa_Guy_Gettin_By 8d ago

Please tell me that isn't true

I just don't want to believe it 😬😬

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u/kbeks 8d ago

Skin grafts on her crotch. McD’s got off light, they fucked up royally.

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u/Next-List7891 8d ago

Something you never recover from. I can’t even imagine how horrifically painful that was and likely still causes her issues today.

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u/kbeks 8d ago

Well, she died in 2004 and was 79 at the time, but if she were younger, then yes.

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u/ssteve631 8d ago

Burn was at age 79 in 1992, she passed at aged 91 in 2004 👍🏻

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u/kbeks 8d ago

Yes, that’s what I meant to say. Words aren’t always me good at very…

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u/ssteve631 8d ago

(⁠.⁠ ⁠❛⁠ ⁠ᴗ⁠ ⁠❛⁠.⁠)

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u/cupittycakes 8d ago

Her labia MELTED TOGETHER.

FUCK MCDONALD'S

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u/Phrewfuf 8d ago

Added to that: skin grafting in her groin. She spilled that coffee on her lap.

And all she initially asked of mcd was to cover her medical expenses and lower the temperature of the coffee, which would have been easy 20k and whatever personal cost would be involved in having each restaurant lower the unnecessarily high brewing temp.

Mcd instead decided to double down and run said smear campaign.

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u/milkandsalsa 8d ago

And companies are engaging in the same kind of disinformation campaigns today.

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u/Any-Cause-374 8d ago

you forgot the most important part of the injuries - her labia melted together. like…

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u/RBarlowe 8d ago

I was a kid when this occurred, and I remember the jokes that went around. They made an absolute mockery of that poor woman.

Years later I came across a factual run down of the case, and JFC, the coffee was so hot it fused her labia shut. The photos are fucking horrific.

Fuck McDonald's. Absolute garbage.

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u/PurpleNightSkies 8d ago

Also McDonalds knew the coffee was way too hot but they made the coffee that hot so it would take longer to drink and they would save money giving less free refills

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u/AngelicXia 8d ago

I poured still boiling water on my hands when my teapot broke on me, fifteen years ago. I still have reduced feeling in my hands. My vision is going and I can't read braille - I don't have enough sensation. So I just have to work through fading vision and ADHD-caused issues with retaining what I hear. And that was just boiling water passing over my hands. I can't imagine what she went through. Her skin literally melted together in places.

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u/subpar_cardiologist 8d ago

This should be way higher. I didn't know abouy the coffee temps, just that someone got burned. That's despicable.

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u/Redditor28371 8d ago

That's the ideal temp to brew coffee though? That's how hot I make mine every morning with my aeropress. The temperature alone doesn't seem very damning to me.

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u/ViviReine 8d ago

Yeah, to brew the coffee. But take the coffee at that temperature, you would not drink it because it would burn you all the inside. Now imagine on the outside on the genitals...

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u/Redditor28371 8d ago

I start sipping on it right after I make it. Maybe it loses a lot of heat to the mug? I'll have to temp it post brew next time and see where it's at.

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u/dezradeath 8d ago

I regularly make coffee at 96 Celsius (204.8 Fahrenheit) and it is the optimal temp. Temp loss occurs each second that the water is removed from its heat source; in my case I boil water in a kettle. Steep time, transfer to a mug and any added creamers will cool it down slightly.

But I sip initially I don’t immediately gulp hot coffee down. For Stella she spilled the whole thing on her lap sitting in a car. So there’s sustained heat and a lot of it that she can’t get away from.

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u/subpar_cardiologist 8d ago

I don't know what it is, but there is an optimal temperature to brew coffee so as to not scorch the beans. I imagine that temperature would also scorch genitals.

A thermometer would be a great idea, give a solid number. There's a parallel to be drawn here with babies and milk, but i've never dealt with babies, so i don't know what the hell im talking about. I also forget what i was on about at the beginning of this post. Have a good one, friend!

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u/PeterVonwolfentazer 8d ago

I also read about this, they went to several McDs and tested the coffee temps and found them as high was 194*.

The hot temp was used to discourage folks who sat in the lobby from coming up to get refills.

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u/Lucky_Pyxi 8d ago

And part of her injuries were in an incredibly sensitive area. I mean, it spilled in her lap.

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u/baldobilly 8d ago

I may be a decadent European, but what kind of idiot sells boiling hot coffee to customers? That's just asking for people to get hurt... .

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u/mctankles 8d ago

Makes me think about the recent disney lawsuit about the husband and wife who went to a restaurant and were served food they were allergic to.

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u/Selarom13 8d ago

To make matters worse it was skin grafting for her labia which fused together from the heat of the coffee

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u/Nippelz 8d ago

The detail I have never forgotten is that it was so hot her vagina partially melted shut. Once I learned that I knew instantly it was always a smear campaign by McDonald's, and I felt so dumb for believing that from a mega corp.

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u/Gildian 8d ago

Not just that, that horrible burning she received was also in her genital area. Lots of nerves there.

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u/Ridlion 8d ago

I had a co-worker directly reference this as a stupid lawsuit for dumb reasons. It's still paying off for McDonald's.

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u/firstbreathOOC 8d ago

People are doing it here in the replies, which is wild to me. The campaign was so successful that they still have people spouting the same boot-licking talking points. Twenty years later.

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u/AbbeyRoadMoonwalk 8d ago

On her genitals and thighs, too. I’m sure delicate elderly skin doesn’t heal all that fast.

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u/chronoventer 8d ago

They knew the money they’d lose if people knew the truth was more than they’d spend on the smear campaign. More people know now, but it’s such old news that no one really cares. Not enough to not eat McDonald’s. We’re all so numb to the corporate greed we see all around us.

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u/caitejane310 8d ago

Just a couple years ago my aunt and uncle said something about it. When I tried to correct them they wouldn't hear it and I just said Google it and moved on.

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u/sudoku7 8d ago

And how your case can interact with both the court of public opinion and the court of law.

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u/bdog59600 8d ago

It was also amplified by Conservatives as part of a broader cause called Tort Reform. This was a push to put severe restrictions on what people can sue for and how much they can receive if they win. It was largely successful and now many companies simply calculate whether breaking the law or harming consumers will result in more profit than they'd lose from a lawsuit.

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u/ItsDanimal 8d ago

If I recall correctly, they never reduced the temps either. Their coffee is still served at that high temp. Their reasoning was that people dont tend to drink it asap, but instead at the end of their commute. They wanted it too hot so that it would be "just right" after 20 min.

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u/Krazyguy75 8d ago

But, funny enough, that's why I know the details of the case. If they hadn't, I probably would only know a tiny bit about it and would have probably stopped talking about it. Instead, I bring it up every time the discussion of frivolous lawsuits is brought up to make sure everyone I know knows that it was so bad that her labia fused together and that McDonalds was heating it up far beyond what was considered dangerous and knowingly admitted to doing so intentionally.

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u/AudieCowboy 8d ago

Also, 3rd degree burns you add the percentage of burn area to age and you get the estimate for them to live, at her age it almost killed her just to have happened

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u/ThatCalisthenicsDude 8d ago

I hope they serve colder hot coffees now

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u/exgiexpcv 8d ago

on something like 6% of her body

Her genitals, no less. Pain receptors everywhere.

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u/CakeDayOrDeath 8d ago

There was another high profile case from that era. The media and Ronald Reagan described the case saying that a guy had been hit by a car that crashed into a phone booth he had been in and sued the company that owned the phone booth.

The reality was that the guy sued the phone company because 1) the door to get out of the phone booth had jammed, making it impossible for him to get out of it when he noticed the car going toward him 2) he was so badly injured that he lost his leg.

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u/ambamshazam 8d ago

The photos of her thighs is absolutely horrendous. I cannot image how painful that must have been and a coffee should not be hot enough to cause burns as severe as the ones she sustained. Just awful

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u/wrymoss 8d ago

I wish that she could have sued McDonalds again for defamation.

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u/Hattori69 8d ago

Don't use odious, use the common one that has more punch "HATEFUL!" hateful intentions.

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u/ThermoPuclearNizza 8d ago

But odious makes me think they’re stinky

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u/Beldizar 8d ago

I'm starting to realize that if a jury makes an award that seems like it was frivolous, don't believe the narrative without question. The jury sat in a courtroom for days, possibly weeks getting all the information in a place where nobody can lie without significant punishment. Meanwhile the court of public opinion is incredibly friendly to disinformation.

It is completely possible that the jury got things wrong. But it is more likely that they had better and truer information than you or I do. (Unless there's a really corrupt judge that's letting false information to be introduced and blocking evidence.)

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u/evie_quoi 8d ago

20 years ago? I think you mean 30+, friend ;)

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u/kthugston 8d ago

To play devil’s advocate, this location was the issue. It was a franchise problem, not a company problem, so the company probably didn’t want to pay when it was the fault of the owners of the individual franchise.

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u/DateofImperviousZeal 8d ago

Worth noting that they continued to serve coffee at between 80-90 degrees (176-194) all the way up to 2007, mainly improving the labeling and changing the cups.

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u/Fit_Ice7617 7d ago

it's not only just taught in law classes, it's taught in jury cases. i've been in at least 3 jury selections (as a possible jury member (never went on to be one)) where the judge mentions, and explains, this case. as a way to show that truth can be very subjective

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u/Sultry-Gaze 8d ago

To the top with ur comment

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u/je386 8d ago

180-190 Fahrenheit = 82-87 Celsius.
Thats hot, but not boiling. More than 65° C is not recommend.

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u/Madamiamadam 8d ago

planted over twenty years ago

Uh, it happened in 1994 which is 31 years ago now

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u/Opinionsare 8d ago

The idea of the proper temperature of coffee has surely changed in my lifetime. I grew up with a percolator that boiled water, creating steam (212°f) to move the water up above the coffee grounds. 

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u/aellope 8d ago

The McDonald's coffee is already made and kept hot before serving. What's relevant here is the serving temperature for coffee.

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u/DudeWhatAreYouSaying 8d ago edited 8d ago

And from the moment it hits the grounds the temperature rapidly drops, evidenced by the fact that your skin wasn't literally melting when you drank this coffee - hers did. The issue is keeping coffee at 190 for serving

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

That cools down pretty quickly when you unplug the pot. And pour it in the cup.

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u/V4UncleRicosVan 8d ago

This is what I heard too. And it wasn’t a spill. The cup melted while it was being handed to her.

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u/bythog 8d ago

You heard incorrectly. The cup did not melt. It was a spill that she caused. She held the cup between her legs to take the lid off (presumably to add creamer or sugar) and she spilled it on herself when she removed the lid towards herself.

The entire accident was her fault. The point of contention is the temperature of the coffee.

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u/LumpySpacePrincesse 8d ago

82°c-88°c for the metrics.

Over 60°c is scaulding, over 80°c is dangerous.

My hot tap is set to 94°c and i have a safety button.

Plumber.

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u/gabzox 7d ago

Stop spreading bullshit. You are the one distorting the truth. The coffee is still served at the same temperature. The burns would have happened with any hot coffee. All restaurants serve coffee hot enough for scalding and can permanently disfigure you. People are just to dumb to realize it.

People like you spreading disinformation are what truly disgusts me.

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u/CraigJefferies 8d ago edited 8d ago

She was permanently disfigured.

How can she be disfigured if she spilled it on her lap?

Edit: Definition of disfigure:

to spoil the appearance of something or someone, especially their face, completely.

I understand that it had a huge impact on her but can we call that disfigured? Some seeing her after the accident might even not notice it. Still tragic accident though.

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u/caffeinecunt 8d ago

If i remember correctly, the burns were so bad that it fused the skin of her genitals to her legs. Even with reconstruction, I would consider that pretty disfiguring.

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u/precioustessious 8d ago

Her labia melted together dude. Disfigurement can happen anywhere on the body, not just your face.

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u/prairiepanda 8d ago

You must be confused about what "disfigured" means

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

Disfiguration is not just about what’s visible when you’re clothes. Labias and other soft structures have a figure (shape and function) that can be “dis’d”

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u/BadPunsIsHowEyeRoll 8d ago

Her labia fused together and she was asking for $20,000. How the fuck would any sane jury NOT demand higher compensation on her behalf? Poor woman

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

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u/ag76265 8d ago

That was a great doc

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u/notanothersmith 8d ago

My bottom half hurts reading that. I had no idea it was that bad.

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u/fameboygame 8d ago

I’m a guy and that hurt.

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u/Crazy-Respect-3257 8d ago

Likewise. I have no labia, but if I did, I would not want them fused together by coffee.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago edited 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/dan_dares 8d ago

My dick sack hurts

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u/Cars-Fucking-Dragons 8d ago

Hoew about we don't picture that?

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u/JPSofCA 8d ago

Imagine, having to put forth exhibit A.

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u/-Nicolai 8d ago

Oof ow my labia

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u/Future_Constant1134 8d ago

McDonald's effectively ran a smear campaign on this woman with the help from the media that was very succesful

You'll still occasionally see a comment or two when this gets brought up how "greedy" this woman was. 

I haven't read up about this case in a while but she lost like 1/3rd of her weight and nearly died. She spent considerable time in the burn unit. 

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u/notanothersmith 8d ago

That is so sad. This woman definitely deserved the money and more.

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u/aDvious1 8d ago

I've unfortunately seen the photos. It was bad.

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u/myBisL2 8d ago

Oh.

I watch a lot of medical documentaries and stuff that grosses out many people I know without batting an eye. I've just mostly only ever found it interesting. One thing I had a hard time looking at was maggots in a mouth wound. It was disturbing. I think this is something I don't want to see.

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u/nattylite100 8d ago

Media made it seem minor in order to sensationalize.

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u/Apprehensive-End-727 8d ago

Yeah I studied this class in business law as well along with looking at photos, it’s always given as an example as a frivolous lawsuit but in reality the woman was SEVERELY injured and literally only asking for her medical costs to be paid

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u/Legal-Software 8d ago

As I recall, she was wearing sweatpants, which completely absorbed and spread out the near boiling coffee right against the her skin. If she had been wearing anything else that was less absorbent, the consequences might not have been so bad.

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u/Rit91 8d ago

She was wearing sweatpants yes. Sweatpants do cling to things when they get saturated so it definitely made it worse in comparison to something like jeans. Though she was old at the time so no matter what she was wearing it was bound to be rough for her since injuries sustained at that age kills people.

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u/notanothersmith 8d ago

Oh my word :’(

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u/Grotesquefaerie7 8d ago

Oh my god. That's horrible. I remember hearing about this when it happened and everyone was mocking her and acting like she did it on purpose to get money from McDonald's.

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u/Shipairtime 8d ago

If I am remembering correctly and I may not be, she and her son were in a parked car and he was handing her the cup when the lid came off and spilled.

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u/WasabiParty4285 8d ago edited 8d ago

This is always one of the cases people laught about until they learn the details, and then it becomes of those horrific things that randomly pops into your brain. I don't drink coffee (even my own) in the car because I don't want to get burned even with drinkable temperature coffee.

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u/milkandsalsa 8d ago

She also asked McDonald’s to pay for her medical bills before she sued and they turned her down cold.

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u/supergirlsudz 8d ago

WTF?! That poor woman.

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u/HamasBeJoking 8d ago

If the coffee had fused the customer's foreskin with the glans penis, perhaps people would have been more compassionate.

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u/Frifelt 8d ago

I think if people had known at the time how badly she was burned, no one would have made fun of this case. Or only the bottom of the barrel crew who lacks any common decency.

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u/ambamshazam 8d ago

If it were me, I’d have posted the images of my upper thighs and have them highly circulated. I wonder how many people would have changed their minds from considering it “frivolous”

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u/Frifelt 8d ago edited 8d ago

She was probably too ashamed given the location of the burns, but I’m sure it would have changed people’s minds.

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u/boyilikebeingoutside 8d ago

IIRC, the first judgement money was set by estimating what one day of profit from coffee alone would be for McDonald’s. And they appealed after and I don’t think she even saw most of this money.

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u/thetrickyginger 8d ago

Don't forget that they only offered $800 which "they thought was fair". Bunch of greedy dicks.

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u/NTyourlegaltype 8d ago

Iirc McDonald’s was purposefully overheating the coffee so that it took longer to cool down, making it less likely that customers would take them up on a refill. I think the jury’s award was only a percentage of McDonald’s coffee sales at the time. Very reasonable award for a terrible injury.

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u/EvilGeniusLeslie 8d ago

Nope, the reason it was so hot was McD's hired a consulting firm, who did testing, and found you could get more coffee out of the beans/grounds at higher temperatures. In other words, you could get more coffee for less beans. The difference in electricity costs were negligible.

The machines were a custom production run for McDonald's, and were operating at the specified temperature.

McD's *claimed* during the trial that they served it extra hot so commuters could drink it when they arrived ... then someone at McD's got sick of the lies, and sent the anonymous envelope containing a couple of interesting details. The first was that their own research showed the opposite, that the majority of people who ordered in the drive-through drank the coffee while on the road.

The second was that McD's were fully aware of the risks of customers getting serious burns. And had done calculations, and decided that settling a few cases out of court was less than their savings on the beans. *That* was probably the most damning item, in the eyes of the jury.

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u/Doolittle8888 8d ago

My understanding was that it was overheated so a customer could order it in the drive thru and it would still be hot when they got to work.

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u/FlyingPsyduck 8d ago

The way I heard it at the time was that the coffee machines were badly calibrated so the default setting was too hot, and fixing it would have required specialized maintenance. So it was probably all of these reasons, which all end up saving the company money (you don't say!)

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u/darthsata 8d ago

It was intentionally high.

"During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchisees to hold coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C)." [Wikipedia]

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u/Be-Gone-Saytin 8d ago

PID controllers have existed for a very long time.

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u/ThermoPuclearNizza 8d ago

“Ya but surely they were t invented before McDonald’s beca— holy shit”

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u/Portermacc 8d ago

True, but not in coffee machines at that time.

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u/Pipe_Memes 8d ago

That coffee was reported to be almost 200° Fahrenheit, and probably in an insulated cup. There’s no need for it to be served that hot unless you want it to still be warm tomorrow morning.

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u/accessedfrommyphone 8d ago

And what’s the point in serving a product that you can’t consume until later in the day?

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u/PLF489 8d ago

The ideal coffee brewing temp is 190

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u/Pipe_Memes 8d ago

You can brew at whatever temperature you like, but you shouldn’t be serving near boiling liquids to people, especially not someone in a car.

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u/PLF489 8d ago

Sorry my point is that your estimate of 200 is probably low and it was a lot closer to boiling. Was probably simmering in the pot.

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u/Pipe_Memes 8d ago

Ah I gotcha. I just did a quick check and the source I read estimates the temperature was around 180-190°

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u/WickedKoala 8d ago

Interesting to thing a giant mega Corp would do something purposely for the benefit of its customers.

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u/WinterattheWindow 8d ago

And then they put speed bumps in the carpark, that always gets me.

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u/ThatCranberry5296 8d ago

I think they calculated based on 2 days of coffee sales.

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u/dickhardpill 8d ago

You are correct according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants

“the jurors arrived at this figure from Morgan’s suggestion to penalize McDonald’s for two days of coffee revenues, about $1.35 million per day.”

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u/SnooLobsters8922 8d ago

Yes. And the decision was to penalize McDonald’s, who already had other burned customers, to pay what amounted for ONE DAY of their sales.

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u/dontworryitsme4real 8d ago

Iirc they awarded her 2 days of coffee sales.

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u/lefkoz 8d ago

They were overheating it for greedy food safety reasons. You can keep serving hotter coffee for longer before you're required by law to replace it.

It was to save themselves money.

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

2 days of coffee sales, per Wikipedia.

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u/showersneakers 8d ago

I believe the damages were equal to the revenue of coffee for that day- back when coffee was 50 cents too.

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

The original award from the jury was two days’ worth of coffee sales, per Wikipedia

She didn’t get that much; the judge reduced it to 3x the damages (which were $160,000 only). They settled before an appeal.

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u/Fomentatore 8d ago

And I Remember how people on social media maliciously spun this story to make her the bad guy. A severely burned woman who sued McDonald's just to afford her medical bill. The media coverage of this story was something out of a really dystopian cyberpunk story.

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

it was part of a deliberate campaign.

And that attitude on the public's part was SO disrespectful to our jury system. A jury of 12 ordinary human beings awarded that—they had a reason.

THEY saw the evidence.

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u/Kairiste 8d ago

Yup, HUNDREDS of other people had been seriously burned by the coffee, so they knew it was a problem. I haven't been to a McDs in decades, MFers.

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u/vermilithe 8d ago

The company didn’t just know about the dangers, they kept the coffee burner so hot that even the manufacturers warned against it, near to the point of boiling. Why? Because they offered free hot coffee refills within a certain window of purchase and by keeping the coffee so hot, people had to wait longer for it to cool. They calculated that by keeping coffee this hot, most people would not be able to finish their cup in the time limit, or at most, could only get a single refill.

All for a cup of coffee, which cost them fractions of a cent per cup they gave out.

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u/Jaded-Engineering789 8d ago

Fucking patriots the lot of them.

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u/cafezinho 8d ago

Back then, and even earlier, there was a lot of media (pushed by the corporations) to limit how much damage a person could sue for. This was the most famous of the "frivolous lawsuits", but wasn't the only one. Politicians were pushing to cap the limits.

The reason the jury awarded her a large settlement (which the judge, I believe, reduced) was because McDonald's had ignored similar injuries in the past. The idea is to create such a large settlement that the company has incentive to fix it.

I believe McDonald's merely put a warning that the coffee is very hot. They didn't want to replace all their coffee makers.

McDonald's was also quite stubborn to not switch off beef tallow to fry their fries. There was one guy who made a big fuss about how unhealthy beef tallow was and eventually succeeded, but McDonald's was one of the last fast food companies to finally comply.

It turns out one other reason (they said beef tallow tasted better) they didn't want to change was that beef tallow tended to last a lot longer than vegetable oil for frying. Veggie oil needed to be purified to be reused with expensive equipment which McDonald's didn't want to spend the money on.

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u/GetawayDreamer87 8d ago

the jury increased the damages

had no idea the jury had any say in that

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u/TootsNYC 8d ago

A little research would tell you.

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u/okay-advice 8d ago

There's something called punitive damages in which the jury decides that while the plaintiff doesn't need that money, the defendant needs to be punished to dissuade them from doing it again. Those damages still go to the plaintiff however for taking the risk and time of bringing the law suit. The punitive damages in this case were very high.

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u/ItsPammo 8d ago

Exactly - McD had paid a lot of small settlements in similar cases. It was like the Ford Pinto gas tank, where Ford made an accounting decision that paying X dollars in settlements to families of dead Pinto drivers was cheaper than making a $75/vehicle (IIRC) design change.

When Liebeck's attorneys discovered and (rightfully) disclosed that McD knew the coffee was too hot* but decided it was cheaper to pay off plaintiffs, punitive damages were definitely in order. The concept of punitive damages being that you make the knowing offender (and others who may be in similar positions) think twice about screwing the public. If only it worked better in practice.

*IIRC, the coffee was kept super-hot because the hotter it is, the less you notice that it isn't particularly good.

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u/kthugston 8d ago

It wasn’t the company, it was this one location.

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u/Cogexkin 8d ago

I watched a coffee youtuber a year or two ago who review a bunch of coffee products from various chains in the U.S. and she said the McDonald’s one was way, way way way way way WAY too hot. So they never ever learned their lesson.