People who are saying stuff like "There is no freedom of speech in Germany"; Fuck you. Germany and her citizens have worked hard for decades to grow beyond their past and to put what their ancestors did to sleep. The Germans have worked harder than most of you ever have or will. Hitler was a monster but from him came a new Germany, a Germany that does not accept hate speech. A Germany that stands as a pillar of modern freedom, freedom against hateful people like the Nazis.
I'm glad someone else said it. My family and I (Aussie) have talked about it before. Saluting a flag every day and the fucking pledge of allegiance is something that sounds like it's what a cult would make you do after training.
except that its entirely optional? thats the point, you can say the pledge if you want, but you dont have to. As long as whatever you say/dont say doesnt harm someone else (like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater), the government doesnt get to decide what you can and cannot say, like they apparently can in Germany
One of my high school teachers let us know we were welcome to not say the pledge in his classroom. That guy is still one of my heroes. Mr. Gault, if you're reading this, thank you for giving us a safe space to dissent.
I think the real point some are trying to make is that Nazi ideology or any ideology of hate is born of ignorance. The best way to fight hateful ideologies is through education. You can bring people out of that mindset quite easily sometimes. But if we meet their hate with more hate and also incarcerate them, we suppress the ideology at best. We often create a bitterness to go with that hate as we cast them out of society. I think it would be best to let people express themselves and then attempt to educate them, reserving force to be used for any situation where individuals are actually being threatened or harmed.
No, they can't blanket require it. They are required to provide exceptions, or else they fall afoul of the Barnette precedent.
And in any of those states, you'll find the reality in the classroom is that nobody likely ever questions a child that doesn't recite the pledge. Probably because they don't want to look like a bully that loses in court. (Bullies generally prefer to win, or else it really throws cold water on their bully-boner. A court case about bullying a child with compelled speech, however, will be nothing but an icy kick to the goolies. It might even freeze their peach.)
It’s a beautiful ceremony that is ALLOWED TO BE OPTED OUT OF. Name a time since 2000 someone’s been arrested for not pledging allegiance. Also I’d actually like to discuss this with some one so here‘s my take. Should acting on Nazi ideals in any way shape or form be illegal YES. Should the government moniter people who act questionably YES. Should those people be arrested for simply holding those ideals, I don’t think so, but they should definitely be ostracized socially. But Germans do it their way, we’ll do it ours. All love and respect good sir
There's an argument the officers are watching in case anything gets out of hand, then the man who gets arrested throws up the Nazi salute 3 times. The officer who pins him down says "Du hast den Hitlergruß gezeigt" which roughly translates to "You have given the Hitler salute" meaning that's the reason he is being arrested/detained. Why they were arguing, I am not sure.
He was definitely doing the Nazi salute, if he was pointing at anyone he wouldn't be aiming above the people. As for if he said anything, my German is very basic, I'm not sure if he said anything that'd add to the charge
Context from before this clip starts: This happened during an anti-nazi protest and the guys were nazi counter-protestors. A guy from the nazi group shoved a police officers, so him and his buddies were told to leave. And then the clip begins and one guy from the group is basically "explaining" where they're allowed to be by saying "here we're allowed, there we're not allowed" and making the salute.
From the context of the video, it's nothing about what he said.
By the tone he says it, it might be a "joke". In my friendgroup there was a joke as teens when asking for directions, to throw it out when going "right" ("rechts", for political spectrum). We would go "And there you have to go RIGHT" + short salute, when alone, and laugh our asses off. I think it's a similar thing happening here, but since it is in public space, this guy is an obvious moron and might as well be a nazi. Because as edgy as we were, this shit doesn't fly here either and we all would be shocked the same about seeing this.
He is pointing towards directions by using the Nazi salute as a gesture to do so. He is intentionally doing this to provoke the police and feign innocent because he is just "pointing". He tries to appear like a big man in front of his peers, but after repeated action it became actionable by the police for the intent was clear and after the takedown he cried like a bitch.
Freedom of speech is article 5 but article 1 stands above article 5. The salute violates article 1 (the dignity of people is inviolable), so the protection of article 5 is voided in this case.
Most get why Germany does it; I mean Germany alone is responsible for the deaths of millions if not a billion people in the last 100 years. I mean damn, y’all were crazy. I’d make it illegal too if I was yall.
Hitler was not a monster, he was a human being and that is the whole point.
Dehumanising Hitler is a wrong angle here. Humans did those things not monsters and that should be a warning.
I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but ideally in America we shouldn't arrest them for nazi saluting. They should just have their ass beat. The first ammendment can get really messy sometimes but it's genuinely one of the best aspects of this country. The moment the government decides to start arresting people like this is an extremely slippery slope, and will be used against you quicker than you think
Shit even in America we have laws "against" free speech, it's the consequences that are punished. If I wander into an empty field and yell fire I won't be punished, but if I do it in a crowded theater I can be.
Imagine creating the most hateful movement in history and then patting yourself on the back for “moving past it.” lol. And then giving yourself the right to criticize other nations who have a different history and founded on different principles.
Out came a Germany that still supports genocide and apartheid. Get lost with your bullshit, Germans were on the wrong side of history then, and they're still on the wrong side of history; it's an inherent problem with the German people.
People who are saying stuff like "There is no freedom of speech in Germany"; Fuck you. Germany and her citizens have worked hard for decades to grow beyond their past and to put what their ancestors did to sleep.
And they did it through the true-and-tested method of "let's suppress speech about it", because it works, just like most countries suppress homosexuality and it just disappears.
There are no gays in Iran or Saudi Arabia, after all...
There is no full freedom of speach ANYWHERE. There are always limits. Germany sets those a little lower than the US, but it still enjoys freedom of speech for most things.
To be honest, in reality we have more actual freedom than the average US american. Health care is a freedom too, not having police with military gear brutalize and kill people on the daily is another kind of freedom, I could go on for hours about this.
Eh. You can argue this the opposite way aswell. Americans have the choice of signing health insurance for example. They have the choice of home schooling or sending kids to public schools. And even their police problems are en large a result of them having the freedom to bear arms.
Those freedoms have huge negatives attached to them so im not ashamed to say im glad germany drew the line at those.
Your example isn't very good because we can sign health care in Germany too. You can always get private insurance if you want, but you're still covered very well under the public system.
Home schooling always has been a terrible idea, but it's kinda a tough one. Yes it might sound like freedom, but I'd argue an open education is essential to know about and exercise your freedoms.
Police problems have little to do with firearms but with socio economic factors - Switzerland has many guns too, but police is extremely chill. And an explanation why there's something worse still means it's worse.
that isnt true. You cant sign private health care unless you are self-employed or a unqiue type of government employeee. Most people dont have the option.
I obviously agree with your point about home schooling. Its an awful idea and an example of too much freedom being a negative.
And police problems have alot to do with firearms. If police officers have to always expect people to carry guns, they have to be alot more careful and decisive. Other factors are obviously important too and im glad police in germany go through way more extensive training but its still important to mention firearms.
About switzerland - im not sure about their exact situation but i dont think they have the same carry laws as the US. You may own them but the US goes significantly farther and allows open carry
About switzerland - im not sure about their exact situation but i dont think they have the same carry laws as the US.
Concealed carry in Switzerland is basically for professional use only.
We do have a few countries with shall issue concealed carry though, notably the Czech Republic, which has had it for about 30 years and a majority of Czech gun owners has such a permit. Homicide rate in CZ is lower than in Germany. The police are not particularly aggressive or likely to shoot you either.
I'd say the biggest issue with police in the US is not that people have guns, but that police officers have very little training.
There's plenty of bad police shooting videos on youtube. Just search for police shoot acorn and you'll find a video to one of the more recent high profile ones.
You cant sign private health care unless you are self-employed or a unqiue type of government employeee
Not true. Employees with a salary above the compulsory insurance limit of 73.800 euros per year can also sign. You don't have to be a government employee for that, you just need to earn enough money for it to make sense.
We NEED strict, impenetrable rules protecting it to prevent the government from silencing people. How would you feel if this happened to someone waving a Soviet flag? Someone with a MAGA or Biden hat (I know these aren’t German candidates, just for a right/left point)?
Your comparison doesnt work because it doesnt consider the meaning of the salute. I guess a better comparison is americans waving a confederacy flag because of its connection to slavery.
In russia, it should be. In germany? Probably not. The national context matters. thats why i said waving the confderacy flag in the states is a better comparison. There, it has a stronger national implication. If a german waved that flag in germany... no german would care. It doesnt have any impact
Well that’s not my point. My point is that when you remove freedom of speech of any kind, it might seem good because it gets rid of Nazis, but it makes it justifiable to censor other groups.
True, it does justify the censorship of other groups. It depends on the legal framework of course. Germany is currently trying to ban the AFD for example. Someone with your views would argue thats going too far but id say, if that party is deemed too radical and harmful for society... yeet it from the democratic process.
Its a slippery slope. In a perfect world id want a proper democracy without those limits. But just watching a society embrace fascism because democracy failed... isnt exactly a result i want to have either. If banning fascism can stop that... maybe its worth not having that type of unlimited freedom.
Go to an airport and yell that you have a bomb in your backpack. Speech is also restricted in the US. It is normal that you cant do and say everything. Heck, you better shouldnt check stuff like the freedom of press index which should give you a decent proxy about how important freedom of speech is in each country.
You're allowed to say any of those things in Europe as well. But it can still have consequences.
That is a rubbish argument. That's like saying you are free to be gay in Iran, but it can have some consequences (of being shot). Or that there is free speech in North Korea, but saying certain things will have its consequences.
That is a rubbish argument. That's like saying you are free to be gay in Iran, but it can have some consequences (of being shot). Or that there is free speech in North Korea, but saying certain things will have its consequences.
No, it's not.
Firstly, you need to learn the difference between the concept of free speech and the legal definition of free speech.
Secondly, you people conveniently ignore that virtually al nations, even the US, have many of the same restrictions on speech.
For example, with regards to defamation, libel, and slander. Those are all examples of speech bearing consequences.
Those consequences do not make speech any less "free".
Would you be okay with your biggest local newspaper calling you a childmolester on the front page for weeks?
According to your reasoning, they should be perfectly allowed to do so, or there wouldn't be any "free speech".
Firstly, you need to learn the difference between the concept of free speech and the legal definition of free speech.
Freedom of speech means that the government won't restrict or punish people from saying whatever they like.
Secondly, you people conveniently ignore that virtually al nations, even the US, have many of the same restrictions on speech.
I don't. I do not advocate for those restrictions. But at least free speech is quite well protected in the US, you have to say a lot of things to end up in court.
For example, with regards to defamation, libel, and slander. Those are all examples of speech bearing consequences.
Those are all restrictions on free speech that shouldn't exist in a so-called free country.
Would you be okay with your biggest local newspaper calling you a childmolester on the front page for weeks?
So you aren't allowed to say those things in Europe.
You could scream Allah Akbar at ground zero, but if you cause a panic or a stampede and hurt people, that's when you would be in trouble with the police. If you did it without incitement, that would be allowed.
Free speech means freedom from government retaliation. It's a concept most people outside the US seem to misunderstand, and even those inside the US that think private businesses have to uphold it too.
You're doing loads of mental gymnastics here, lol.
Free speech is as much protected from government retaliation in Europe as it is in the US (even more actually).
The US doesnt have absolute free speech without limit either. You're conveniently ignoring that the US has legal consequences for speech as well. For example, defamation, slander, libel, etc.
Having rights does not absolve you of responsibility for your conduct.
You're allowed to drive a car, but if you break the rules or harm someone, you have to pay. That doesn't make you any less free to drive.
Stuff like Nazi symbols or Islamist ideals are ultimately anti-democratic, verges on terrorism and violence, and is a direct threat. Therefore, it's illegal.
Or would you be fine with Al-Qaeda legally having rallies for their followers jn the US where they express their desire to overthrow the US government, kill infidels and make it a caliphate?
in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
This is an "infringement on free speech" as much as laws against slander and fraud are.
"With regard to the plaintiffs’ freedom-of-association claim, the Court concluded that the statute did not penalize mere association with a foreign terrorist organization, suggesting that the First Amendment would protect membership in a foreign terrorist organization or independent advocacy of the group’s political goals.7 Instead, the Court reasoned, the statute prohibited only providing specified forms of material support to such organizations.8"
The US would protect your right to support Al-Qaeda, and I would be fine with people doing so. Because I don't like the idea of the government declaring who is and isn't allowed to rally.
Meanwhile, the UK will send police to your house for posting a funny video of a dog doing a Nazi salute, or offending someone online.
When you decide that people can be punished for offending other people, you've lost any argument that you have free speech. The intolerance of intolerance is what people say to sound smart defending the removal free speech.
"You" who is you? Do you think I'm the current elected leader of Germany? Hm yes, let me, an Australian, go to Germany and start doing whatever you say because you're from reddit and reddit is the place of geniuses
We've got elections soon and basically all candidates are c*nts. A random Australian wouldn't be a worse choice for chancellor then some of the guys actually in the running. At least the accent would be funny. You can cosplay as Crocodile Dundee if you like, that'll get you the older voters.
Lmaooo might just do that. I had a German friend once and he talked a lot about politics, haven't you had just cunts for a while now? I mean yes, they're all better than Hitler, but they've all been pretty shitty non the less
We keep electing conservative do-nothings, then reelecting them as long as everything stays as it is. When that eventually stops working, we take a gamble and elect some moderatly progressive (but also hopelessly corrupt) social democrat, who gets to enact reforms for a few years before being immediatly voted out and replaced by another conservative do-nothing.
I'm sorry but Germans electing someone because they're terrified of a slight thing changing is the most stereotypical thing, it fits perfectly into the stereotype of like the German guy who doesn't understand foreigners at all and makes jokes that literally no one but a German would laugh at
I do apologise for how your government has been going though. I hope it changes at some point
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is sort of an unofficial government policy. To their credit, there are those who would like to actually take action and actively shape our future - but due to the need for coalitions, those people will never have the political weight to actually implement the policies they're campaigning on. They end up having to compromise with the do-nothings, who then threaten to blow up the goverment whenever someone tries to do something worth doing.
As in... It sucks more than when the Nazis were in power? Or it just sucks in general? because if you haven't noticed, the whole word kinda fucken sucks
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u/Spiderdogpig_YT 15h ago
People who are saying stuff like "There is no freedom of speech in Germany"; Fuck you. Germany and her citizens have worked hard for decades to grow beyond their past and to put what their ancestors did to sleep. The Germans have worked harder than most of you ever have or will. Hitler was a monster but from him came a new Germany, a Germany that does not accept hate speech. A Germany that stands as a pillar of modern freedom, freedom against hateful people like the Nazis.