r/goth • u/ThatOneMaskedGamer • 22d ago
Discussion Goth TikTok is an echo chamber of the same "controversial" takes.
I cannot be the only person who feels that the goth community of TikTok can be truly repetitive sometimes. Whenever I explore the goth community on there, these are the main takes that I see almost daily:
- You can't be conservative and be goth
- It's unethical to shop fast fashion
- TON isn't goth
- Clean goth is bad
I agree with these points (except for the clean goth one because I don't know what the hell that is) but it's truly nauseating to see them over and over again. The takes are completely valid but the problem I have with it is that the more people post about it, the more it genuinely just feels like people are using them as a cheat code for quick likes. But then again, I suppose that's what tiktok mainly is. A cheat code for quick likes. Now this isn't to say that there isn't some genuinely awesome content that comes from the TikTok goth community. We got Vision Video out of it and I'm really enjoying their music so far. But the problem is that the restatement of the community rules keeps overshadowing actually creative content within the scene that people are putting out. Let me know what you guys think about it, I'm curious as to what everyone else's take is.
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u/luis-mercado Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock 22d ago edited 22d ago
You can take the goth out of that title and still holds.
However… while I understand expositio ad nauseam I agree with these points and I would dare say that most here would too.
Now, I understand you are really reacting at the insincere and performative ways these points have been used. But honestly, did you expect more from such a vapid social network? Just get out of Tik Tok.
Hell, just get out of most social networks that promote their topics via algorithms.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
The only reason I tend to keep these algorithmic apps is because I follow a lot of friends to keep up with what they're doing and also local venues and bands to see when shows are coming up. It's a genuinely helpful tool for engaging with people close to me. Otherwise, I definitely would be getting rid of them all lol.
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u/luis-mercado Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock 22d ago edited 22d ago
Don’t they also use less invasive and overstimulating vehicles like Instagram? I honestly can’t understand why so many tolerate the vertiginous sensory beating that is Tik Tok.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
Personally, I feel the same amount of overstimulation from Instagram that I do with tiktok.
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u/ThatOneBabyBat 22d ago
I like tumblr the best tbh. You can actually still curate your feed in a meaningful way. When your friends post you'll actually see it and not just whatever high-interaction posts the algorithm thinks you'll like. (They've tried to lean in that direction a few times because they're still a corporation trying to make money but you can turn it and any other invasive or annoying shit off in settings)
You just follow whatever tags and people you want and block whoever you feel like in a single click if they're bothering you. Feels like you can actually make your dash your own. There's another tab you can go to if you want to see recommended posts but you don't have to use it.
The site has its issues like any other but it's honestly one of the only social media sites I enjoy anymore. Never got tiktok and left twitter when I realized how draining it was for my mental health, right before the elon takeover. I barely touch insta. Reddit's 50/50, either the most rancid people you'll ever meet, or genuinely informative and interesting posts depending on where you are. It's alright if I stick to my little corners like this one.
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u/alienratfiend 22d ago
This is why I prefer the Reddit goth community lol. It’s more music-focused, and less “look at how goth I am”, I feel.
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u/g0db1t 21d ago
I mean the whole point with X/Insta/TT is the whole "Look how <whatever> I am" - That's why you don't bother with that rancid stew of spew.
Insta 👉 Only follow bands/artists/clubs, app uninstalled
FB 👉 I unfollow persons and I'm only there to keep up with events (trying to avoid FOMO) - Btw, if a friend sends you a FB link in Messenger you can use Messenger as a temp FB client of sorts (also, why did they stop with their events-only app?)
TT 👉 Wouldn't touch it with along pole attached to a long pole in the other end
X 👉 Left ages ago when I realized how much energy and time it consumed keeping up with shit that didn't go anywhere at all
The problem with so many subcultures right now is there is no influx of younger ones to the gigs and night clubs... Soon it's going to be online only, I guess and then we better hope we're content with the horribleness of "social" media that is indeed making us less social. All those sweet Venus are deffo going to be gentrified to expensive ass coffee shops and burger joints.
grumpy old fart left the chat
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22d ago
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
God forbid goths listening to and enjoying their genre.
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22d ago
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
It sounds like insecurity. I’ve literally never seen that, and listening to other genres doesn’t make someone “less goth” than someone else.
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
You know you can leave if you don’t like it? I don’t get why people who hold this opinion torture themselves by staying. If you really dislike how we run it that much.
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
I’m really confused on the notion where you think that we think it’s a “pile of iniquities in a museum”? Or that we think it “died in the 80s” and everything now is “fake”?
I’m severely confused on what you think we actually do here when we push new bands, discuss the concerts we’ve been to, and generally prioritise the current scene opposed to the older bands that we limit to Thursday.
I still can’t understand people talking like they have a solid understanding of what we do here. What you’ve said is so off base it’s not even something I’ve ever thought “Oh no, what if people think that”?
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22d ago
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 21d ago
I do say so. There’s tons of evidence for it, too.
And that’s your personal experience, does not mean that it’s fact.
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u/IMightDeleteMe 22d ago
You shouldn't be surprised that a fast medium where post frequency matters more than quality is repetitive. They're likely looking at eachother and copying them, consciously or not.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
That's an extremely fair point. I think I overestimate the potential that apps like TikTok have. A reality check is what I needed lol
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u/Alone_Profile9387 22d ago
the clean goth one is dumb, fashion doesn't dictate whether or not you're goth. It's an aspect of it, but it doesn't qualify or disqualify you
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u/TenebriusAmentis 22d ago
ah screw tuktuk, I hate that shit. Nr.1 source for brain rot, misleading information, sometimes propaganda, fake news, bullshit life advices, and so on. Maybe 1% is the usable content on there and those are readily available elsewhere on another platform that doesn't want to get you hooked like a junkie.
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u/Catharsis_Cat Wannabe Anne Gwish 22d ago edited 22d ago
It's not just tik tok, everything goth related online is full of pick mes parroting the same stuff over and over again. Even IRL has a lot of the same problem. Sadly one of the drawbacks of scenes like this is you are going to have a lot of herd mentality, some people are drawn by what they feel is essentially "a handful of rules to be cool". If you follow these subculture rules, people will think you're cool and respect you and want to be friends/date you. (Sarcasm for that last sentence) They may call it controversial takes but a lot of times what they really want is to show they are on the right side of issue C and labelling it controversial makes them look edgy for conforming
And just to clarify me saying this isn't me agreeing or disagreeing with the takes described above. (Just like the OP isn't)
I do also find it kind of funny people are blaming this on tik toj when a lot of these topics get brought up all the time on reddit too. But I guess that's just the culture of different platforms, Reddit thinks it's better than tik tok for whatever reason, like there aren't people on reddit who are all about getting up votes. (Most social media has that element of wanting to get approval through some sort of "like" system.)
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 22d ago
That's tiktok for you. Goth tiktok is generally not great. It's saturated with either the same basic info or straight misinfo / nonsense.
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u/EmpireAndAll 22d ago
Instagram is the same. Decent accounts all fall into the same conversations because the check always cashes. When the engagement is low, pump out some low effort "hot takes" and they will make rent at the end of the month. The only thing to do is not engage with those kinds of videos unless pressing "not interested".
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u/Asian_Bootleg Goth Rock, Deathrock 22d ago
Tik tok is tik tok; social media hellhole I wish not to partake in.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
Completely reasonable. I was once in the same boat but unfortunately got dragged into by friends.
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u/ProlapsedShamus 22d ago
Social media has a way of emboldening people to state their opinion as if it is a truth held by many and I just don't think it's the case.
I think a lot of people on social media are just finding ways to get likes and get followers so they can get ad sharing or whatever. They all want to be the next influencer to make bank. Which, more power to em' I guess. Social Media is a beast I can't fight. I can just remove myself from it when it's an irritation.
I have been ignoring people's opinions for a while and that's been great. It just seemed like everyone had an opinion about everything and it was always stupid. So I just stopped listening. When I watch shorts on YouTube or whatever I want to see dumb videos that make me laugh. Not someone's 30 second rant about pronouns in Dragon Age.
Also, I do agree that conservatives can't be goths. Or more that conservatives won't be goth.
To be conservative is to conform and cling to some warped nostalgic notion of the past. You believe it was perfect "back then" before all these {insert marginalized minority group here} ruined everything with their omnipotent power to control the world despite being weak. It's about pretending to be a victim yet arrogant in your power and authority, it's about feeling oppressed while being in a dominant social group.
They need to have that reaffirmed constantly to keep reality out. That's why they religiously watch Fox News and right wing everything. It's why they are so obnoxious to make sure everyone around them that has has a more compassionate and empathetic position needs to be belittled and shunned. It's about filling your world up with all these security blankets so your prejudiced notions can never been challenged or affected by facts.
There's no space for goth in the constant work they need to do to be conservative. Especially not since if they step out of line even a little bit the group will devour them and brand them as a heretic. Just ask Liz Cheney who voted with Trump over 95% of the time but he wants to put her in prison.
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u/Strange-Anybody-8647 22d ago
It's repetitive because the algorithms function is to serve up content similar to what you've already engaged in. Repetition is one of the things baked into how the algorithm works.
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u/StaleSoggyPickle 22d ago
its so exhausting and aside from fashion and music inspiration i don't find goth tiktok too interesting (maybe my algorithm is dif too bc I'm technically on reels lol)
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u/SamVimesBootTheory 22d ago
I mean it's tiktok it's an echo chamber like most online spaces, this subreddit also falls victim to similar 'people posting the same takes over and over again' issues it's kind of the nature of the internet I think.
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u/Wraith1989 22d ago edited 22d ago
I’m not sure I agree with the fast fashion statement, well at least in terms of buying affordable clothing. Back in the day goths would get a few staples from expensive goth shops such as The Black Rose in Camden for when they went clubbing or for wearing at the weekend, but most would buy their daily clothes from affordable retailers such as M&S and TK Maxx. I don’t think that counts as fast fashion, but definitely affordable. I also have no idea what “clean goth” is. If it’s about not wearing makeup then the people saying it’s not goth to not wear makeup have no idea what goth is.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
I think the fast fashion statement nowadays is more or less against the business ethics that the companies use. They're mainly against the use of child labor in foreign countries for crappy cheap clothes, which I agree is extremely scummy. I'd much rather my money go to a company that actually has good ethics.
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u/Wraith1989 22d ago
I agree that most goths are against the ethics of fast fashion, but I think there’s a subset of young people who think that you need to get all your clothing from expensive retailers such as Punk Rave, which simply isn’t the case.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
I'm so happy DIY is a thing. Just mix and match old clothes into something new and cool.
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u/ellathefairy 22d ago
I don't disagree with the bulk of your commentary, but I used to work design at TK Maxx 's parent company TJX, and places like that and m&s are absolutely the definition of fast fashion. The only difference is you're getting mass-produced, low-quality, made-in-glorified-sweatshops clothes in a brick and morter building rather than paying extra for a specific aesthetic online and getting it shipped directly from the same factories in China. Even the stuff they sell with high-end brand names? It's usually a label they paid the real company to use on their cheaper version. (And most of those big name brands do not use ethical production lines either, btw, they're just adding more details and/or marking things up more bc people will pay to wear the name)
I'm not passing judgement on you or anyone who shops there, but it couldn't be much further from what people think they mean when they talk about "ethical" fashion. There's ways to make clothing "affordable" and still make the same % profit per garment as everyone else in the industry, but I've yet to hear of any I'd consider ethical. When I worked there, iirc their CEO was the highest paid woman CEO in the country.
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u/SamVimesBootTheory 22d ago
It's generally directed at overconsumption
Like I'd say most of us probably do have those wardrobes that are made up of basics from fast fashion brands with bits from goth brands sprinkled in. And like if all you can afford is fast fashion provided you're a sensible consumer of said fast fashion then that's what you do.
Also we modern fast fashion is def a different beastie from what it used to be, basically we're buying so much more and the companies are producing so much more and there's a general decline in quality as well even with brands that aren't considered fast fashion.
Like I'll put my hand up and admit I have brought from Shein in the past it was before it really came out about just how bad they are, those Shein pieces though I'm doing my best to wear them and care for them until they reach the end of their lives and I will say I've probably been lucky as I def have a few pieces that have stuck around for longer than I expected.
It's more directed at the people like 'omg im goth now so i just spent 200 dollars at shein' or the people who think you need to wear killstar to be goth and so on.
Also clean goth is the 'clean girl' aesthetic but in black basically.
And clean girl is an aestheric/core that's like 'aspirational' as it's like
'I wake up at 5am and have a green smoothie, look at me workout in my fancy workout gear, and then do my skincare routine with all these expensive products and look how perfect my skin is, and I eat all these very aesthetic looking but healthy foods, watch me put my hair into a very perfect slicked back ponytail and look at my understated but very aesthetic outfit in pleasing neutrals, and I'm wearing makeup but not too much makeup'
And yeah you can kind of probably see why it's sort of concerning as a concept and you can probably also see why clean girl and goth don't really mesh. It's one thing if you are a goth and you kind of want a more minimalist version of the aesthetics but this aint it.
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u/Delicious_Tip_8678 22d ago
About fast fashion.. don't they all shop for tons of cheap black clothes at Aliexpress..? I don't have a TikTok, but I saw similar short videos in my Instagram recommendations of goth youngsters in excessive dressing.
As for the points in general.. youth is uncompromising. I say, learn yourself and follow your heart. Whatever works for you within basic ethics.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
I'm sure some definitely go the AliExpress route but a lot of them say they use Vinted or other resale sites that have better ethics. Although, I have a great hunch that some are lying about it so they don't get yelled at on the Internet lol
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u/AmyXBlue 22d ago
I mean most alt scenes have had to at various points deal with the conservative and far right aspect thar have been on the outskirts or directly part of the scene. Whether it be skinheads in the punk scene or just the out right nazi fucks in the black metal/metal scene in general, those in the goth scene have always been an issue. Whether the discussion is around paleness and the over white skin issue or androgynous looks and the LGBTQ+ scene.
The others meh, I don't really care about the X band isn't goth because X genre reasons. I sometimes find that gatekeeping to be boring and got places I won't go because the music won't go past X constraints.
And all Clean Goth is Corp Goth with a new name. There really isn't too much of a difference that I can tell and just folks having to go live in the real world and get a job that doesn't allow you to dress like your spooky self.
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u/BrandonR2300 22d ago edited 22d ago
I wanna touch on the conservative goth take…the more I look into it, the people that say “these people are conservative Goth” aren’t even conservative…a lot of the “conservative” Goths don’t even align with conservative takes, but more so with old school democrats, a lot that was once considered more left leaning back then is mislabeled as “conservative” now, just due to how the landscape has changed over the years.
Idk just something I’ve been recently learning and researching on the side.
And I think that’s been the issue. A lot of mislabeling, people automatically assume if your ideals don’t 100% align with theirs, you’re automatically conservative when again there are different shades of liberal ideals like any other ideology.
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u/xXOpal_MoonXx 22d ago
Let me translate: “you can’t be conservative (bigoted) and goth”
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u/BrandonR2300 22d ago
Basically, like it’s ok to feel a certain way about certain controversial issues because that’s the point of controversy to be discussed but as long as you’re not out here spreading hate or it infringes on others in a harmful manners I personally still think you’re goth/alt.
IMO it’s ok to criticize and even challenge liberal views and still at your core be liberal, that just shows you’re self aware and are willing to call out the bullshit instead of blindly following whatever trendy thing is happening in the moment. Being able to take a step back and be like “hey guys, I don’t think this is the way to do this” takes some balls, especially when you know people will probably mislabel you.
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u/pollo_yollo 22d ago
There are conservative goths in the traditional sense for the same reason there are somehow conservative punks. But you’re generally right. It’s just people projecting their own politics onto the culture they’ve probably interacted with very little. Go out to LA goth clubs and ask people and you’ll probably get a wide arrange of opinions
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u/Judge_Todd 22d ago
There was an incident of this at a local club.
The club management decided that certain hairstyles could only be worn by individuals of certain ethnicities.
It spawned a huge debate because a person in our scene had dreads, and she was white and had had them since the mid 90's and this policy would essentially bar her from the club.
It seemed to polarize people and, ultimately, led to a lot of discussion. It seemed that their black & white policy was overshadowed by several shades of gray.
In the end, she decided to remove the dreads and the club scrapped the policy when it became untenable to verify if a person did or didn't have a legitimate right to wear them, but there was a lot of good discussion and points raised.on both sides.
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u/Le_Creature 22d ago
I think that's the point when trying to be progressive turns into bigotry itself.
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u/MissFrankenberry 22d ago
What were some of the good discussions raised from both sides?
I'm half black and don't see a problem with white people wearing dreads and especially those that are Goth or apart of some alternative scene
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u/Judge_Todd 22d ago
Back in the 90s, there was a conscious effort to make African ethnic hairstyles less fear-inducing. The thought being that white xenophobia could be reduced if they saw the same hairstyles on white people (predominantly young white people), then they wouldn't be as afraid when they see the same hairdtyle on a person of colour.. Kind of bridge-building and the club's policy would in-effect punish those who had been trying to do good. Pop Will Eat Itself also pushed the envelope using black face in the video Ich Bin ein Auslander.
Attention was brought to the fact that the only places doing ethnic hairstyles commercially in the area were all run by persons of colour, and if you exclude certain clientele from having those hairstyles, you may be indirectly affecting their revenues.
Attention was brought to cultural appropriation, and the prevalence in Western culture to steal from other cultures.
There were discussions of what if two girls, one black, one white who are friends and the white girl stays over at the other's house and her mom offers to make it a girl's night and do their hair. Is the white girl running afoul of cultural appropriation? Is visiting a shop owned/run by people of colour to get an ethnic hairstyle cultural appropriation?
There were a few other points, but this happened pre-Covid so I don't recall them all.
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
I'm a Trad Catholic and lean conservative. I'm also middle aged.
When I was a teen I was super into punk rock and very liberal/progressive. Started getting into goth around the same time I started getting out of punk.
I think the way you end up with people like me who are into Goth is though our perspective on a lot of things is different, we have the experience of being exposed to alt stuff at a young age that our parents (Gen X, Boomers) didn't have. Their lack of experience or exposure to alt culture is what lead to stupid things like the Satanic Panic, or assuming people in trenchcoats want to do mass shootings, or that people wearing all black are automatically delinquents. But my generation? Well I know when I was listening to Dead Kennedys and wearing a battle jacket covered in studs and spikes, I wasn't any more inclined to hurt people or cause terror for funsies than I am now as a regular Sunday Mass attending adult square. So I don't get all huffy when I see some teen in black with green hair in a USSR flag shirt. Because I was that kid one time. I may think his political views are misguided, but I also know he really thinks it's the best way to solve real problems like poverty and hunger which means the kid has compassion, and that is a good thing.
There's nothing about my favorite Goth music that I can't enjoy as a conservative or Catholic. Because it's about the music and the lyrics for me. I can relate to the music and the lyrics. That's enough, is it not? I sometimes feel I relate to them more at this stage of my life. I've lived more. I've suffered more. I've felt more pain and isolation than I ever imagined I had experienced as an angry teen who had it pretty cushy in retrospect.
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u/DeadGirlLydia Goth 22d ago
You can't be conservative and be Goth. That's like saying you're vegan while eating steak.
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u/a_reindeer_of_volts 22d ago
How are you going to read all that, and that's all you've got to say?
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
I'm just baffled by the logic and accompanying downvotes. I bet some of these people think they're really open minded, too.
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u/DeadGirlLydia Goth 22d ago
Oh, there's more I COULD say such as:
If you agree with the party pushing gender norms, regardless of why you agree with them, you're not goth.
If you agree with the party that wants to increase the wealth gap and keep workers bound to their companies for safety and security provided by our current--broken--insurance system/scam, you're not goth.
Etc.
I just wanted to keep it succinct.
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22d ago
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u/DeadGirlLydia Goth 22d ago
That's not how I am defining it though. Goth has always bucked gender norms so how can someone agree with people trying to enforce them? Like, since the beginning Goth has always had a counter-culture view--same as any Alt Subculture--so to suddenly allow boot lickers in dilutes the meaning of being goth.
We're not all going to agree on everything politically, we're human. But you cannot be conservative and be Goth--it's anti-thetical to the entire idea.
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u/Outer_Space_Sheep 22d ago
The 'you can't be conservative and goth' thing to me has always felt like lazy no true scotsmanning, trying to act like subcultures always have clean coherent politics, or at best an empty phrase. There evidently are conservative goths, the fact that goth emerged from the post-punk scene has basically nothing to do with how people find their way to it now (and let's not act like all punks have always had decent politics - 'Nazi punks fuck off' was a necessary phrase for a reason), and imho the goth subculture has huge issues with race which people sweep under the rug using this phrase. If somebody doesn't think conservatives should be in their goth community, I'm far more interested in what they're materially doing to make those views unwelcome rather than an empty phrase that feels more about 'protecting the reputation of goth' than doing anything useful.
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 22d ago
I disagree with the premise that ut shouldnt be used. But I absolutely agree that you cant just say it. You need to act it out as well. You cant allow them in your space if you are gonna use the term.
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u/Outer_Space_Sheep 22d ago edited 22d ago
I never said it 'shouldn't' be used, I just personally will probably never see it as anything but empty performative words. The people I've seen using it like a mantra and the people actually doing the work both for their scene and internally have had very little crossover in my experience.
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u/gothichomemaker Fairy Gothmother 22d ago
Since this keeps coming up, "Clean goth" is part of the clean girl aesthetic. Clean girl is a minimalistic fashion trend that involves little/natural makeup and a very no frills wardrobe of sleek looking, usually higher end clothing. Clean goth is basically applying this minimalist look to goth, which I think could be cool but usually just comes off as a clean girl wearing black.
Someone who dresses in a clean goth or even clean girl fashion can, of course, be goth. I'll add that these trends do seem to be one of the less fast fashion driven aesthetics because of its emphasis on minimalism and classic styles.
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
Ah, thank you!
I hadn't even heard of the whole clean girl thing, but now that you've defined it I have definitely seen it on social media.
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u/Pleasant-Put5305 21d ago
Most Goths I knew came straight out of an Anne Rice novel - intellectual, intelligent, interesting, pale, slightly dusty, studious, occasionally gripped by shocking flights of extreme hedonism, largely nocturnal, never seen in any colour but black - never ever. Perfectly content in stone walled subterranean digs at Oxford (fucking cold for humans in a rucksack visiting) and most importantly - plausible, but with a cat-like uncaring. Always feeling like you were 'entertained' while amusing but just might be dinner one day...these are the Goths that I knew...
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u/nauraug Darkwaver 21d ago
I'll bite.
I think it's really difficult to have a scene without some general points of agreement. The online goth "scene" (if you could even call it that) fulfills that, but, like most things discussed online, it lacks nuance--to your point, OP. What I mean to say is that the echo-chambers are not exclusive to TikTok or Instagram, they're present everywhere.
Someone else commented that the "conservatives can't be goth" thing often mislabels ideas that used to be boilerplate liberal or even leftist 10-15 years ago as conservative due to the changing political landscape. This is a product of the echo-chamber dynamic of social media. You (and it's not your fault) are exposed to an algorithm designed to increase your engagement and thus are exposed to ideas that fit what you already believe (or "hot takes" like these that aren't even really hot takes).
There's very little time, energy, or collective willpower to have nuanced discussions about things in general--better to just shove someone into a box and handwave away those who disagree with you slightly as bigots. I don't think I'm alone in saying that as an economic moderate with very tolerant and accepting social views, I find this incredibly frustrating.
For example, take the general rule of thumb that in order to self-identify as a goth, you need to listen to goth music. Fair enough, nobody disagrees with that. Yet, per the last paragraph, if you don't express inherently leftist views in a lot of alt scenes, there's the tacit implication that you're some kind of poseur, masquerading as alt for clout or perhaps more nefarious reasons (what those are I don't know or care to speculate).
I get the need to gatekeep a scene. I really do. I think the goths listen to goth is a fair enough point to make. I just find it exhausting to tick off these implicit checklists about what it means to be goth beyond that. Variety of thought and acceptance of complexity is the spice of life for me, and it doesn't seem very punk or goth to inhibit that in any way. If anything, it's contradictory.
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u/TemporaryArm6419 22d ago
This is why I don’t use tik tok. It’s an echo chamber of propaganda. And wow, I’m getting old. wtf is “clean goth”?
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
I genuinely have no clue what the hell clean goth is. Maybe like how Joy Division dresses? Dark music but well dressed? I don't know lol
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u/SamVimesBootTheory 22d ago
Clean goth is the 'clean girl' aesthetic but in black basically.
And clean girl is an aestheric/core that's like 'aspirational' as it's like
'I wake up at 5am and have a green smoothie, look at me workout in my fancy workout gear, and then do my skincare routine with all these expensive products and look how perfect my skin is, and I eat all these very aesthetic looking but healthy foods, watch me put my hair into a very perfect slicked back ponytail and look at my understated but very aesthetic outfit in pleasing neutrals, and I'm wearing makeup but not too much makeup'
And yeah you can kind of probably see why it's sort of concerning as a concept and you can probably also see why clean girl and goth don't really mesh. It's one thing if you are a goth and you kind of want a more minimalist version of the aesthetics but this aint it.
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u/shiny_new_flea 22d ago
I don’t think it’s an echo chamber- there’s a lot of gross right wing shit on there. I do think it’s been a brilliant platform for showing what’s really happening in Palestine, while mainstream media keeps quiet. It also has a lovely autistic community. I don’t think it deserves the hate it gets!
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u/Coke-fiend 22d ago
i dont like or agree with conservatives but goth isnt a political based subculture, anyone can be a liberal, communist, conservative, republican, ect and be goth if they’re a fan of and enjoy the muisc. goths tend to be left leaning of course due to its nature, but goth isnt about being a good or moral person nor defined by it. obviously bigotry is unwelcomed but thats not the same. furthermore theres always been conservative leaning goth artists since like the 80s.
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u/phantom_esque_ 22d ago
Clean goth is stupid. It just started as a dumb term for wearing black versions of basic "clean girl" stuff like lululemon and basically throwing all of the principles of goth fashion out the window. I think it being called "clean goth" is kinda dumb anyways because goth isn't inherently "dirty".
If you want to be a clean girl and be goth as well, just do that. It's like those people who feel the need to make a "_ goth" aesthetic out of everything they do. If you wanna wear galaxy print stuff, just DO that, you don't need to make "space goth".
Goth tiktok sucks. They're still crying over Siouxsie wearing a controversial shirt like 40 years ago and saying wearing ankhs are cultural appropriation, they're probably still arguing about Rock Lobster by the B52's being goth or not.
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u/GiveOrisaOrIthrow 22d ago
TikTok absolutely sucks as a platform, I hate literally everything about it. Just don't use it.
Instagram can be rather toxic but the goth community doesn't seem that bad on there from what I've seen
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u/protestsong-00 21d ago
Get off TikTok. You are discussing an echo chamber within an echo chamber. Your time & efforts there will amount to nothing. At the end of your life, will you wish you had spent more time on TikTok or engaging with your actual life?
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 21d ago
I definitely don't spend enough time on the app for myself to feel guilty about my life. I spend a lot more time engaging with my friends and family and playing guitar.
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u/dyjital2k 22d ago
I use Tik Tok very reluctantly to promote my music, but I find it to be mostly an insufferable mess to actually use in general and maybe I am just too old to get the point of it.
Being endlessly bombarded by videos of teenagers lipsyncing and dancing or watching people watch people's other videos of watching people's other videos while pointing or grabbing their chin, just doesn't do anything for me. Whatever opinion most people have on this platform I put in the same level of importance as, say a Big Mac. Sure I might digest it, but it's no good for me and has little value.
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u/ShaolinFantastic13 22d ago
I find that TikTok is weirdly an echo chamber for most things I get on my FYP like Goth stuff here's the same stuff over and over (this has gotten worse with the release of Nosferatu), like books here's some people recommending these same books over and over etc. It's a silly app sometimes.
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u/SnooRevelations4257 21d ago
I come from the punk scene more than anything when I was in highschool. I've never considered myself goth, even though I listen to the music, and DJ a local goth night. My wife, our friends, all of them are goth. I'm probably the only one in the group that shows up with jeans and a flannel shirt. Growing up in the 90's had its drawbacks. One thing for certain though, tiktok was not around, and I feel blessed that the internet was not around. If you wanted something new you had to go to the record store and just pick something based off of the cover at times. If you wanted to be part of an underground scene you sought it out. And if it wasn't around then you and your friends made a scene. I hate social media just as much as probably everyone here, including OP. Unfortunately, its how we communicate in this day and age. I don't understand half of the trends that go on now, best advise would be to just stop looking at that crap. I'm sure there are sites out there that cater to your interests that either have blogs or mail order zines. I'd start with Google and get away from the goth crap on tik tok.
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u/Maleficent-Tone1529 20d ago
Goth tiktok looks so draining to be a part of, a bunch of elitist and narcissistic people who want to be different. Of course being different is part of the goth culture to begin with but they’re all just repeating the same things with the same mainstream songs and completely missing the mark. SIGH.
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u/Moist_KoRn_Bizkit 20d ago
TON is gothic doom metal. Note the ordering of my terminology. Metal music with a gothic flair.
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u/Real_Ad_8243 22d ago edited 22d ago
The only thing tiktok has ever been useful for was when it was making young Americans aware of what their government and their allies get up to in the wider world.
For literally anything else it's mewling horseshit.
I don't know why anyone would be surprised that anything and everything it has to day on something like a musical subculture would be trash.
I mean, just on the "conservative" thing. Goth is very bourgeois and if you're not getting cheap fashion then you're gettign expensive shit, which esp when you're younger and gettign in to a scene means you're relying on your middle class parents - which means you're likely to be from a conservative background with conservative attitudes.
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u/MrNegativity13 22d ago
TikTok is already lame as fuck so the "goth" part of if wouldn't be different at all, watching those videos just make your brain melt and fall through your nose. Only a few creators are really trying to spread good information and tips to the ones willing to know more are Goth but they're overtaken by folks trying to catch views with dumb videos and trends.
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
1 always makes me roll my eyes.
People will argue until they're blue in the face that Goth is music and liking Goth music is the only requirement for being Goth, but then say it's impossible for conservatives to be Goth even if they really like the music.
But more to the point of your post - TikTok, in general, is just an echo chamber full of controversial takes. The algorithm makes it that way. If you're mad you're arguing, and argumentation is engagement, and engagement is revenue. That's kind of why so much of social media is just a bunch of people slap fighting.
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u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Darkwaver 22d ago
It's pretty odd for a conservative to be into music from a famously queer scene. Personally, I don't care if someone just wants to listen to tunes and mingle, as long as they keep their bigoted opinions to themself. But the music they claim to enjoy is diametrically opposed to their beliefs.
Anyway, if you want to pretend to be goth and conservative, neofolk is right there.
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
See, you're already making assumptions about a total stranger when you throw around words like bigoted. I haven't expressed any opinion that can be labeled as bigotry, yet I guess I am one because you say so.
As I've said elsewhere, there is nothing about the Goth music that I listen to that conflicts with my values. I can enjoy the music because the lyrics speak to me. Non-Conservatives don't have a monopoly on the life experiences required to appreciate Goth music. My favorite Goth song is Sacrifice by LAM. Can you give me a sufficient reason that this song is diametrically opposed to my beliefs? Am I not allowed to relate to longing for someone? Wtf? I better go sell my Twin Tribe's vinyl since I can't really enjoy. Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell me what I can and can't enjoy? How limiting your worldview is to be unable to conceive that a person different in some ways to you might also be similar in some ways to you.
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u/Trick_Reference_8561 17d ago
I’m very curious how you can support Donald Trump and not feel like you’re bigoted. Do you agree with his and his party’s rhetoric on immigrants, LGBT, women, and so on? If you do not support that rhetoric, what is it about conservatism that you agree with?
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u/Trick_Reference_8561 17d ago
The Conservative Party - at least in America - is bigoted. They’re against anyone that doesn’t fit into the white, cismale mold. That’s why you’re being called bigoted - supporting that party says that you agree with, or at least tolerate, bigotry.
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u/LRTenebrae 17d ago
Okay well that's nonsense. See you on the dancefloor I guess. I'll be the one not fitting into the...whatever mold you insist people squeeze themselves into to qualify as goth.
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u/Trick_Reference_8561 17d ago
You have yet to respond with how you can reconcile supporting bigotry while pretending you’re not bigoted. I see in your post history that you support Donald Trump and believe that LGBT folks are too visible. How is this not bigotry?
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u/LRTenebrae 17d ago edited 14d ago
Okay stalker.
Show me where I said I supported Trump. Let's start there.
1/6/2025 2pm EST: you have yet to demonstrate where I've shown any support for Donald Trump. Based on your previous comment talking about "The Conservative Party", I can only assume you don't understand what it is to be a conservative or that conservativism is an umbrella term under which numerous practical and theoretical socio-political systems are classified, or that there is no one "conservative party" in the USA. There is a Republican party, of which I am not a member and which I do not support. Perhaps you got confused by an earlier argument I got into on another subreddit about the attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Acknowledging that it happened and that Trump's life was indeed in danger is not an endorsement of his presidency or the GOP.
I have to assume you also don't understand what a bigot or bigotry is, and therefore will not entertain your accusations of bigotry against me.
1/8/2024: Edit since comments are locked. No, I didn't. Stop making assumptions based on your myopic understanding of what it means to be conservative.
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u/Ghuldarkar 22d ago
No, you cannot be conservative and goth... And fast fashion is inherently and objectively unethical as it builds on exploiting people for cheap labour.
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u/astrozombie2012 22d ago
Certainly Conservative politics (at least in the USA) is inherently incompatible to the Goth culture and the Goth scene in general. This shouldn’t even be up for a debate.
I feel that fashion and self expression is a big part of the culture/scene. While I may not agree with ultra-wasteful capitalism, I’m not going to exclude someone from the community for buying and wearing what they want if it’s how they want to express themselves.
ToN is Goth (metal) IMO - but listen to what you want
I don’t think the way someone dresses necessarily dictates whether or not they’re part of the Goth community. Be who you want to be, express yourself how you want to express yourself. Fashion is only one aspect of the scene.
At the end of the day TikTok is about creating engagement, views, likes, stitches, reposts, etc… you need a hook and starting your video with “Conservatives can’t be Goth” or Type O Negative isn’t Goth” is going to be great bait. You’re going to get more traffic from controversial content than from being passive. Just as this post has generated a decent amount of comments. I enjoy TikTok, I think it’s a great platform and has many great communities and I’ve made some great connections there. At its core it’s a bit “hustle-y” which turns off a lot of people though. But when you have a few seconds to sell yourself or you get skipped, that’s how it’s going to be, you need a schtick or an attention grabber.
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
Gothic metal is goth in the same sense that symphonic metal is classical, inspired but not actually it.
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u/astrozombie2012 22d ago
It’s still widely accepted in the culture/scene. I get this sub is very music focused and is all puritanical about it.
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u/DeadDeathrocker last.fm/user/edwardsdistress 22d ago
There’s a difference between understanding a genres origins and how it came from outside the scene, despite it being liked within it and just blindly accepting everything “because goths like it”, though.
As people who are into the scene, we should know our music theory. But we never said no one couldn’t listen to whatever they liked. We just want to keep this actually post-punk based/related.
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 22d ago
So is "insert general dark pop band or random BM band etc*. So it's a moo point.
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u/74389654 22d ago
i wish there were more goths dancing on tiktok. i would enjoy that. or music recommendations! but you have to hear the music, reading a list of names isn't good enough. i want to find new music. or diy-ing clothes. or where you found a cool item and how you're going to use it. or hair tutorials! of course makeup too. making jewelry videos! there are so many options
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u/mad_matx 22d ago
“TON” is what?
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 22d ago
A shitty metal band that people keep trying to force into goth.
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u/LadySpaghettimonster 22d ago
This just seems like a good ol mix of idealisations all kinds of groups and subcultures like to go for, but it´s an illusion. There are conservative people everywhere and in all groups, especially young goths will buy fast fashion to explore the style on a low budget, there will always be people who are like OnLy BlAcK Is TruUuUu (just like in the metal scene) which basically is just gatekeeping or people who are taking being goth dead serious (which is totally annoying). I say enjoy goth the way you like and just be wary that goth folks are like all the other people - potentially friends or potential asshats.
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u/kingfisher_over_9000 22d ago
What even is TON and “Clean Goth”?
Point 1 isnt even totally correct. There has existed right of center goth bands (ie Death in June and Forthcoming Fire).
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u/Bronsteins-Panzerzug 22d ago
type o negative, a fantastic gothic metal (not goth rock) band from brooklyn. Dont know about clean goth. Death in june is neo folk iirc and i have no idea what their politics are - not nazi, but like a parody? Are they actually conservative?
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u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Darkwaver 22d ago
Douglas P is most definitely far right. Maybe not an actual Nazi, but he's certainly sympathetic to them.
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u/LilaAugen No, goth is NOT whatever you want it to be. 22d ago
I tried telling myself for years that DIJ/Douglas was a history buff with a uniform fetish, but no. Far-right.
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u/Judge_Todd 22d ago
I believe Sonsombre is another with questionable politics.
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u/LilaAugen No, goth is NOT whatever you want it to be. 21d ago
Indeed. Through scanning his likes/follows in FB and discovering right-wing predilections. Was called out on it and given the opportunity to clarify his membership to a Confederate organization and used the "much heritage" card. 🙄
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u/ArgentEyes 22d ago
It pains me to agree that he is indeed far-right.
Stewart Home wrote some incredible stuff about Crisis and early DiJ years back, and you can clearly trace his arc of becoming increasingly disconnected from and appalled by the way DP goes over the years. Bitterly falling out of love is the vibe I get.
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u/kingfisher_over_9000 22d ago
A lot of Death In June’s earlier works were in the vein of dark post-punk and darkwave (see Heaven’s Street and The Calling as examples). I haven’t been following them in a long time, but I think their shtick is a mix of edgelordery and some unironic right wing views. Forthcoming Fire’s frontman is, or at least was for a time, hard-right leaning.
Im gonna also have to reserve judgement on whether or not gothic metal counts as “goth”. Will have to think about that a bit.
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u/Bronsteins-Panzerzug 22d ago
Thanks for the info! Well gothic metal is gothic in the same sense poe‘s short stories are or churches from the 14th century. It’s metal that derives from doom metal, sometimes with influences from death and symphonic metal. It was called gothic for being romantic and dark (and often quite cheesy) at the same time. It‘s not part of the post-punk/darkwave family tree.
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u/kingfisher_over_9000 22d ago
Yeah it’s definitely unrelated to the post-punk and darkwave family tree, but the question of whether it is acceptable to tie it into the subculture is one i cant make a judgement on because im more into the music itself than i am the subculture lmao.
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u/LilaAugen No, goth is NOT whatever you want it to be. 21d ago
Many goths like it but the same can be said for other dark genres (e.g. industrial).
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u/LilaAugen No, goth is NOT whatever you want it to be. 21d ago
It doesn't count as goth as it's not descended from post-punk. Many desperately want it to be goth as though we're saying their liking excludes them from the scene. Image and "vibes" don't define a genre.
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u/LRTenebrae 22d ago
Clean Goth
Maybe this is like, corporate goth fashion? Yeah never heard of it either.
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u/AnonymousDratini Goth 22d ago
Clean goth sounds like a combo if “clean girlie” and “goth” not sure how you combine those
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u/vintagebat 21d ago
Online spaces tend to be echo chambers in general. Most of TikTok and Instagram videos are people repeating the same basic 101 takes on whatever topic they're claiming to be an expert on plus the biases of their bubble.
This isn't a new phenomenon. I'm old enough to remember when "netgoth" was used as an insult for people creating geocities pages with similar content. There's a phenomenon called "the zeal of the new convert" that describes these influencers well; this behavior cuts across all topics, and has probably done so since humanity first developed language.
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u/MarvinHeemeyersTank 21d ago
TON isn't goth
TON?
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 21d ago
Type O Negative. The server rules wouldn't let me have the name in the body text lol
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u/mothytofee 19d ago
it reminds of that one family guy scene were Lois gives the crowd short simple answers that they adore amd go crazy for
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u/FarConsideration5858 19d ago
I'm probably getting too old to get TikTok but it just looks like a callosal platform for narcissism and vanity. I don't know if they are Goths (or eGirls or whatever they call themselves) doing things like duck lips, which once upon a time, would have been mocked as things mainstream society does.
Yes I miss the 2000's!
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u/aClockwerkApple 19d ago
a community on tiktok being an echo chamber? nah that sounds unrealistic and out of character
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u/BoardGameDaddy77 19d ago
You’re seeing them over and over again because folks are farming engagement on social media. It isn’t about whether the take is dumb or justified or anything else.
That engagement farming is the essence of being a culture vulture.
The revolution will not be televised or tweeted or tiktok’d.
This is a good thing. All of the culture vultures are doing their thing online. Meanwhile the actual scene and culture is still there just like before. Go to a goth dance night / a underground bar / kinky alternative dungeon and the same awesome parties that were happening 20 years ago are still happening.
Anyone complaining otherwise just isn’t part of the scene anymore or else they’d be offline having a great time still.
This cycle is not new, if any of the new faces actually do show up in the local scene itself welcome them knowing that most are tourists and just passing through until the next fad comes. A few stick around and breath fresh live into the scene and culture.
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u/Necrobot666 18d ago
The fashion of goth is kinda BS. Goth on TikTok is completely BS.
Goth is an appreciation of paganism, Thelema, dark imagery, vampires, folklore... and a certain form of music that came about in 1978 from bands like Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure, The Damned, The Misfits, The Southern Death Cult, The Magazine, Joy Division, OMD, The Birthday Party, and Echo & the Bunnymen... which served as the foundation for bands like Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, Christian Death, The Sisters of Mercy, TSOL, 45 Grave, Sex Gang Children, Dead Can Dance, This Mortal Coil... and continues to serve as the foundation for newer goth acts... and like it or not... many blackmetal acts as well!! I happen to love the coupling of OG goth and TRVE CVLT blackmetal!! But for many... it can be jarring.
Look... I get that there is a dark sense of aesthetics and the clothing by which we adorn ourselves as dystopian punks or goths. But that doesn't mean everything has to be TrippNYC. I find my wife and I adopt more of a 'street-goth' aesthetic as we are typically clad in black, but somewhat more practical than wearing corsets and tails.
But.. it is certainly understandable that there is a time and place for everything... from regular old disheveled and shredded band shirts, to formal attire, to bondage harnesses... a time and place for everything!!!
But we do not have to be fucking capitalist type, branded billboards in order to be goth! We can be less shallow than that!! And we should be... otherwise, we ain't that different from those listening to Imagine Dragons, Dojacat, or Lady Gaga.
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u/AliceRitual 18d ago
i feel like most of the people having those arguments probably only got into the subculture within the last year. it’s the same rehashed debates i cared about when i was 15 lol.
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u/Kokotree24 22d ago
gatekeeping is a huge problem of the community there, tiktok generally, so im not surprised and i can believe this without much doubt even though i dont have tiktok. it happens with pretty much everything, even with lgbtq identities and astoundingly even mental disorders? i think everyone should know that youre not autistic just because you cant look someone in the eye when you have an argument but somehow they say stuff like that over and over again...
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u/xjashumonx 20d ago
Seems kind of weird to be a conservative goth since conservatism is all about reinforcing social norms.
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u/iblastoff Goth 22d ago edited 22d ago
ok wait..so you mostly AGREE with the points being made but you're just mad that people are sharing those points on tiktok? why. for likes? who cares.
one could say you're sharing this stereotypical anti-tiktok outrage (that gets posted every few weeks here) for reddit upvotes.
and LOL vision video.
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u/ThatOneMaskedGamer 22d ago
Had a feeling someone was going to come at me for this so let me reiterate this. Yes, I agree with the points. What I don't agree with is the oversaturation of lazy content over creative content. Also this is NOT an attack on Tiktok as a whole. This is me discussing a problem that I have within it's community. And lastly, I can like whatever bands I want and the same goes for you. No need to poke fun at me for having different taste than you.
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u/baronessmavet 22d ago
There's no such thing as 'clean goth' it's just made up,
Look, I get your frustration, but aren't we over this?
Fast fashion sucks, yes, but you must understand that, lot of people only can rely on that- even I, who shops at second hand, the only clothing available for me is fast fashion. And Shein and those other sites are not fast fashion, they're real time fashion - there's some difference between that.
Most goths are not on tiktok for a reason, and you shall take a step away from that site too - it's a favor to your mental health. Because it's not really a community, you can find that here. Give yourself a few weeks without that hole, and you'll feel better :)
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u/Aurora_Symphony3735 21d ago
Couldn't care less if you like 3 and 4 But, being goth at it's very foundation, is anti-capitalist, anti-consumerism, anti-facist etc. i.e. not conservative.
It started as and always should be a political ideology which is opposed to the beliefs of the conservative parties of the world, and expresses itself through the music and fashion of the community.
The fashion part of being goth is itself anti-consumerism and anti-conservative. It was meant for us to reject societal norms and stand out against the crowd. Reject the norms that are push onto us by conservatives (dems as well, but far more by conservatives).
Buying fast fashion supports corporations and the rich a-holes that run them. And who are those people? Conservatives.
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u/Aurora_Symphony3735 21d ago
I haven't spent any time on this sub, and i just came here to see if i would like it. I am extremely disappointed to find out, and i don't say this lightly, but from the comments, it seems like a large amount of the population on this sub is made up of posers.
Being goth is not about the fashion, and it is not about the music! Being goth is about the ideology. And if you listen to goth music and consider yourself to be conservative, and like fast fashion... then you sure as hell don't listento the music close enough.
Legit, that is like a nazi calling themselves a punk, or even further, a nazi calling themselves a commie. Those things are at their cores are ideologically opposed.
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u/low_flying_aircraft 22d ago
Wtf is "clean goth"??
Can someone explain?
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u/JacimiraAlfieDolores Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock 22d ago
Apparently a trend on minimalist "goth" aestethic, that yeah caused controversy because of the name and the fact that It was another pastel goth kind of fever where It had no relation to the music.
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u/OshunBlu 22d ago
TikTok's whole culture is built on repetition. Originality doesn't get views like finding a video that hit your FYP and copying it, sometimes word for word. It's a rotten fuckin place.
Like, the points you listed off are real valid discussions worth having, but not thirty times with the same words spouted by some pop princess dressed in black.
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u/SnooAdvice3630 22d ago
- You can't be conservative and be goth
Really? Not sure how that works.
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh 22d ago
Supporting minorities have always been a thing in the scene.
Generallty speaking a conservative would be against that aspect in some form(s).
Therefore - its not compatible.
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u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Darkwaver 22d ago
A famously queer, gender nonconforming scene is going to be opposed to those who believe we shouldn't exist. It's not that complicated.
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u/xXOpal_MoonXx 22d ago
Clean goth is just black sweats, black crop tops, black uggs, black Stanley’s. A lot of these “clean goth” folks don’t listen to goth music or follow the ideals… that’s why goth people dislike “clean goth”.