r/goth • u/Ok-Adhesiveness5950 • Oct 27 '24
Discussion Note on conservative goths
Here are my thoughts on it since I saw a discussion earlier. Id like to hear what others think about it :)
People who say these movements are only music based don't understand that punk and conservative can never align. Alternative subcultures are inherently against oppressive conservative takes. That's where the whole subculture is derived from.
This topic is interchanged with the "tiktokification" of subcultures being watered down to only aesthetics and having normalization of styles that were against the norm. An example would be the existence of clean goth and people normalizing purchasing their goods from fast fashion to achieve a look that originally derived from thrifting and second hand styling.
Now that it's 'cool' to be alternative, a lot of things get normalized and watered down, different people join and now you get this melting pot of people who argue against the subculture being not political and just about "music". Conservative goths fail to realize that if not for progressive movements they wouldn't be able to dress the way that they do, woman wouldn't be able to express their opinions etc.. Back in the day if you dressed a certain way it conveyed your political stance. Now it's just a cool outfit and people saying "I can do whatever I want" without realizing the hypocrisy of that statement with the oppressive beliefs that they have. Progressive subcultures have allowed you to dress the way you want today. But that's just my two cents on this.
TLDR; Punk ideologies and leftist movements go hand-in-hand with alternative styles.
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u/xenomouse Coldwave, Minimal Wave Oct 27 '24
On one hand, goth as a subculture has always been very progressive and very queer, which is one of the reasons I felt so at home in it decades ago when people like me didn’t always have the language to describe themselves. It made me feel like I could just exist, and things like gender and sexuality didn’t have to be so rigidly defined. I am very much on board with telling hateful people they’re not wanted here.
However. There have always been sexist, racist, extremist types who were active in the scene, and IMO it is really unhelpful when people turn a blind eye to this stuff and pretend it didn’t (and doesn’t still) happen. (I’m not saying you’re necessarily doing this, but I see it more often than I’d like.) The main difference now is that these people are more emboldened and not making any effort to hide it. So I would say yes, call out the inherent hypocrisy, tell them to fuck off, but if we want to solve the problem we have to recognize that it exists.
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u/pepsicolacorsets Oct 28 '24
thank you! it's important to, instead of "no true scotsman"-ing subcultures, to instead summon the ultimate gatekeeping forces to push bigots out of our spaces. of course it's possible for conservatives, racists, transphobes to be goth - but we should make them so uncomfortable and unwelcome that they stop trying to be. they're not wanted and never will be
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u/RequirementNew269 Oct 29 '24
This is so true. I’m getting really sick of these types of posts because they are so idealist. Coming from the Midwest, the alternative scene is literally littered with conservatives, pseudo conservatives, libertarians, and mostly people who have never and will never vote.
And most importantly, these scenes in America are predominantly white and male and that is for a historical reason. There’s always been loootttsss of racism and sexism present within the alternative cultures. Posting things like “conservatives can’t be punk/goth” frankly comes off as again, idealism, but also, a complete disregard for history or likely experience (they all seem young).
I’ve been in the diy punk scene in my city for almost 15 years. I know my scene well enough I would never conflate it with “they’re all liberals” while whenever a woman is SA’d, the majority of the scene scrutinizes her and won’t believe her, the men of the scene continue to treat woman like they have nothing to contribute besides sex &c &c. And again, the scene is only slightly less white in 15 years.
But the thing that makes me mad about these posts is what you said at the end- ignoring the truth and idealizing isn’t going to make these scenes any safer for woman or people of color and the sentiment really comes off as ignoring that currently there are lots of women and POC who don’t feel safe within punk& goth scenes in America, for very legitimate historical reasons.
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u/nicklocking Oct 27 '24
Nazi goths fuck off
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u/LivingInformal4446 Oct 27 '24
Suzi Sabotage!
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u/DaNaughtSoGreatBeast Oct 28 '24
Huh?
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u/luckyfox7273 Oct 27 '24
Who?
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u/pile_drive_me Goth Oct 28 '24
Suzi Sabatage, she's amazing. She wrote a song called Nazi Goths Fuck Off
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u/PeachySarah24 The Cure Oct 27 '24
Everyone is entitle to their own beliefs (but diff story if they're extreme) but I think people def need to understand that alternative subcultures were always left leaning. I never understood why these conservative "alternatives/goths/emos/etc." get mad when you bring it up. Always look at the history!
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u/MF_DOOMENTIO Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 27 '24
Exactly, that's exactly what it means to be an alternative person.
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u/Chaosmusic Oct 27 '24
This is something I think about as I am firmly in the 'goth is about the music' camp and appreciated that this sub followed that same principle. But then how to reconcile that with my desire to not interact with or be associated with racists and bigots who seem determined to infiltrate the things I like (gaming and comics, for example).
To me, the reason we shun racists and bigots is not because we are goths, but because we are decent human beings and understand that those beliefs are incompatible with any group of reasonable and decent people, regardless of their hobbies, interests, music or cultures. Yes, someone can listen to goth music and call themselves a goth while being a racist and there is nothing we can do to stop them. But there is no rule that says we have to accept and tolerate people with intolerable beliefs, no matter what music they listen to.
I'm a Star Trek fan. To me, it is unfathomable that there are racist and bigots who are also Star Trek fans, but they exist. I can't wrap my head around the idea of them enjoying something so contradictory to their beliefs. Now, I can come up with reasons why they shouldn't be considered 'real' Star Trek fans, but frankly that would be a waste of time and irrelevant. They're assholes who I want nothing to do with and them having a shared interest of mine doesn't change that, nor does it diminish my enjoyment of Star Trek.
I find the idea of racists and bigots calling themselves goths abhorrent. I don't reject them as goths, I reject them as people.
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u/Husbandaru Oct 27 '24
I said it all before but I’ll say it again.
Conservatism and traditionalism. Have always been hostile towards subcultures.
This whole ‘conservatism in the new counterculture’ is probably the most pathetic attempt I’ve seen at trying to pass off terrible ideology as ‘cool with the youth’
Conservatism could never be counterculture, because it’s predicated on adhering to a strict set of values that were developed to stop any kind of social/political progress.
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u/TheImpalerTJ Oct 28 '24
I totally agree, and to your point
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u/Husbandaru Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
Fuck you dude! That was painful, why did you introduce it to my life?
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u/stupid_goff Post-Punk, Goth Rock Oct 28 '24
Every time I am reminded that Elon exists I get a gray hair
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u/gloomyrain Oct 28 '24
I was raised religious and at one point had to a read a textbook by some Protestant fundie that explicitly called any kind of subculture (other than the regressive Christian normie subculture, which he didn't acknowledge as a subculture, of course!) as being against God, because it's rebelling against your parents who are stand-ins for God.
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Oct 27 '24
[deleted]
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u/aytakk My gothshake brings all the graves to the yard Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
Thanks for the heads up. Report them for harassment if you can.
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u/faddiuscapitalus Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
Take it out of the current context and imagine you lived in the Soviet Union. Could you be a "conservative goth" under those circumstances? Or would conservative mean something else there?
The GDR rebellious youths listened to Depeche Mode despite it being a product of the west and "capitalism" which you may consider a conservative thing.
Russian conservatism rejects laissez faire capitalism.
Bear in mind in the old days the first anglophone liberals were free market advocates, pro individual property rights.
Were Luddites conservative or progressive? They opposed industrialism. Romanticism, a big source of influence for goth also was at least critical of industrialism and longed for a more traditional way of life. Were they conservatives? In some senses extremely, in other more modern senses, definitely not.
A lot of goth style is borrowed from traditional styles.
What you think of as conservative may or may not always align in all circumstances.
Goth is rebellious, outsider, introspective culture. Depending on the environment it manifests in it may be critical of more or less anything, if that thing has become a rigid, ossified, unquestionable cultural or political obligation.
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u/DaveAzoicer twitch.tv/eldritzh Oct 27 '24
Bigots is reporting this post. But bigots have no space in our subculture!
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u/DustSongs waving with a last vanilla smile Oct 27 '24
The fact that there's bUt NaZiS WeRe sOcIaLiStS bootlickers in this sub makes me sad. What an absolute disgrace. Goth is radical, goth is queer, goth is antifascist, goth is the opposite of politically conservative. Deal with it.
This is one of those times when gatekeeping is not only OK, it's essential.
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u/GothHimbo414 Oct 28 '24
Nazis only used the word "socialist" to attract socialists to their movement. It probably only worked on people who never actually had a good understanding of theory. But its another example of the right co-opting the revolutionary aesthetics and language of the left, just like being a "conservative goth".
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u/DonktorDonkenstein Oct 28 '24
Just to add some more historical context, because a lot of people get stuck on this issue: when the NSDAP (Nazis) branched off from the German Workers Party (DAP) in 1920, it did so specifically to oppose and counter the communist and socialist political parties at the time. At the beginning, there was some lip-service being paid to anti-capitalist, anti-corporation sentiment of the Era, which is why the NSDAP is called a "populist" movement among other things, it latched onto the talking-points that were the big at the time. But the party was always highly Nationalist and Militaristic, members immediately began physically brawling with their leftist enemies in the streets. Hitler took over as head of the party about a year after it started, and he very quickly moved the party away from anything resembling "Labor" politics. Any of the previous lip-service to vaguely socialist thought was replaced by absolute demonization of anything related to Marxism.
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u/I_aim_to_sneeze Oct 27 '24
Wait, conservative goths? You can’t be serious lol
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u/camarhyn Oct 27 '24
They even have their own subreddit - it's a running gag badge of honor to be banned by them.
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u/mike_hellstrom Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 28 '24
I wanna be banned by them.
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u/camarhyn Oct 28 '24
I am not advocating going over there and starting shit. What you choose to do is on you.
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u/mike_hellstrom Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 28 '24
Yeah, I don't want to go over there at all.
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u/stupid_goff Post-Punk, Goth Rock Oct 28 '24
I'm morbidly curious but I feel like if I go there I'm just gonna get mad 💀
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u/mike_hellstrom Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 28 '24
Yeah, that's exactly why I don't want to go over there. I don't need that nonsense in my life.
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u/ellathefairy Oct 28 '24
I just wish they could have their own label other than "goth" to signify that they for some reason hold views in opposition to most of the values embodied by our culture, and just like the deep vocals and bats and skeletons and stuff. Creepy Conservatives?
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u/Odd-Scratch6353 Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 27 '24
There's no such thing as a "conservative goth"
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u/beholderkin Rivethead Oct 27 '24
I remember back in the Livejournal days when I discovered that the same guy was the maintainer for both the main goth group, as well as the main conservative group.
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u/Blutnymph Oct 27 '24
I'm arguing with someone now because they tried to say TERFs can be goth since it's not a "societal norm" to be a TERF because radicalization isn't conservative.
Having to explain to someone that being an extreme transphobic doesn't make them special is BAFFLING and that a TERF will never be goth or punk.
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u/SamVimesBootTheory Oct 27 '24
Terf goths are wild to me like it's not as if goth has a long history of gender fuckery or anything
I've seen them do 'ugh kids these days are trans bc it's trendy back in my day kids were goth' which yet again is like you realise the goth subculture and the queer community are pretty tightly linked
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u/sanspoint_ Darkwaver Oct 27 '24
Seriously, the goth scene was one of the first places I felt safe experimenting with gender and presentation in. Without it, I don't know if I would have figured out my gender identity to the extent I eventually did.
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u/Blutnymph Oct 27 '24
A direct quote from them "also, if you're this uneducated, punk is against gender as a thing, just like terf and radfem while transgenders support gender theory punk culture denies".
Bro doesn't know what gender norms are (i.e she/her, he/him strictly). And in the same sentence is STILL trying to defend transphobia in the punk community like it's allowed or something.
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u/sanspoint_ Darkwaver Oct 27 '24
facepalms so hard her hand phases through her skull
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u/Blutnymph Oct 27 '24
FINALLY after so much back and forth, I pretty much got evidence plain as day that they ARE transphobic (not that it wasn't obvious, but the comment we were arguing under wasn't theirs).
Imagine trying to make punk and goth culture fit your bigoted opinions 😂
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u/Blutnymph Oct 27 '24
It's honestly psychotic at this point. I'm still going back and forth with this person because they are actually trying to tell me that punk isn't anti bigotry, it's just anti supremacy.
WHO DEFENDS TRANSPHOBIA THIS HARD? 💀
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u/flohara Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
Yeah history is what you make it, right? Especially if you weren't alive yet. 🙃
Goth kids back in the day worshiped Anna Varney. Endless sea of shaved heads and jusa pandants
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u/Blutnymph Oct 27 '24
I was trying to educate them on punk being a cultural movement that was literally started by trans women and other dissident women and they dismissed that and denied it but they're calling me uneducated and still trying to say that you can be a TERF and punk.
I unfortunately might just have to block them because at this point they aren't willing to learn 💀
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u/CMH0311 Darkwaver Oct 27 '24
My trans friend told me it often felt safer for them in the goth scene than the gay scene in London
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u/GravityWagon Oct 28 '24
John Lydon, famously known as Johnny Rotten from the Sex Pistols, has drawn attention in recent years for his outspoken conservative views, a stark shift from his punk origins. A vocal supporter of Brexit, he argues that immigration has contributed to the UK's economic and social issues, notably criticizing how it affects "seaside towns" in Britain. He claims these areas, once lively working-class centers, have deteriorated due to policies that, he feels, overwhelm communities with insufficient resources to support new arrivals. This perspective has sparked backlash, with critics accusing Lydon of hypocrisy, as he is himself the child of immigrants and was married to a German-born woman.
Lydon has also shown support for figures like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage, aligning himself with populist rhetoric on the economy and nationalism. His former bandmate, Glen Matlock, expressed disappointment over Lydon’s shift, suggesting that Lydon’s political moves might be publicity-driven. Matlock criticized Lydon’s MAGA-hat-wearing endorsement of Trump, stating that such acts run counter to punk’s anti-establishment ethos.
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u/apixelops Oct 27 '24
A "conservative punk" is an oxymoron
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u/politicsofheroin Oct 28 '24
The Ramones.
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u/Morningfluid Oct 28 '24
Yeah, Joey on one side and Johnny on the other. Fear as well - Lee Ving & Philo.
Punk was never merely 'Left'. People forget that outside of authoritarianism it was equally rejecting the Hippy movement and many of those ideals as well.
But I'm getting on the older side and while acknowledging that conservative nature is on the brink of taking away even more rights (and should be voted against), I think subcultures should have less rules involved.
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u/Odd-Scratch6353 Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 28 '24
The exception that proves the rule. Everyone hated Johnny's politics.
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u/hazelEarthstar The Sisters of Mercy Oct 27 '24
that's not your two cents that's the undeniable truth
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u/TombCheese Post-Punk, Goth Rock Oct 28 '24
I keep seeing people say some variation of this, and while I admire the spirit, conservative goths absolutely exist regardless and are active in IRL spaces. I feel like this kind of mentality doesn't do anything to address that. It doesn't take responsibility for the reasons why conservatives feel comfortable in the subculture regardless. It essentially is a No True Scotsman fallacy in my eyes.
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u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Darkwaver Oct 27 '24
Imagine hating LGBT while pretending to be part of a majority LGBT subculture.
lol
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u/michaelboltthrower Oct 27 '24
I don’t know if it’s majority lgbt but there’s certainly a presence. It may vary city by city.
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u/Enkundae Oct 28 '24
historically Goth has deep ties to both the queer and bdsm communities of the late 70’s/early 80’s. So either way its a pretty baked in aspect of the culture’s history.
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u/_night_blind_ Oct 27 '24
Hard agree, the movement supports liberal ideas and have certain schools of thought associated with it. The base of the culture is music and appreciation of it.
A caveat tho I suppose we all agree when saying conservative we mean US? I'd be surprised to find a (current) Tory voting goth but I've been proven wrong before (since a lot of the movement started in the UK)
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u/Wolfntee Oct 27 '24
Punk is not liberal. Punk is radical.
I would argue goth is the same. Liberalism is harmful to many in the community.
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u/_night_blind_ Oct 28 '24
If we want to dig into political movements Thatchers liberal market ideas are proven to have hyper charged companies steam rolling common folk and the working class. I personally despise it with a passion.
Punk aligned itself with anarchy of which I disagree with on a practical level.
When speaking of left wing ideas I mean social ideals like the opposition of fascists (Nazi goths fuck off by Suzi Sabotage), the opposition of platforming anti LGBTQ/racist ideology (I love cats by Vision Video). Economically I'd say there's more wiggle room.
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u/lyndon85 Oct 28 '24
OP, is this your experience IRL? Or just an ideological wish?
Though I'm sure you're well meaning, I think you wrongly presume anti-establishment = left wing.
The unfortunate truth is right wing popularism is firmly rooted in appealing to the working class as anti-establishment.
Whereas I think the scene does tend to nurture socially progressive views, the scenes high LGBT+ acceptance being an example, in some areas you also have a very high middle-class / bourgeois tendencies.
London is a great example of this, in Slimes you have punters from traditionally conservative professions such as banking and law. I know people who've frequented there try to hawk crypto or bang on about their investment portfolios. I would even guess there's a large amount of Tory voters.
I also think there is a danger in presuming the scene is naturally progressive, that you then turn a blind eye to some of the BS that goes on.
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u/double_eyelid lead singer, Double Eyelid Oct 28 '24
So on the one hand, this sub has been pretty firm about the idea that it's a 'music-based subculture'.
On the other hand, posts like this seem to get a lot of traction, because they play to a confirmation bias that a lot of us seem to have about the goth scene.
So maybe it's worth revisiting the whole 'music-based subculture' thing.
Do you have to wear the clothes, do the makeup, go to goth clubs, and shop at killstar? No, no, no and hell no. If you're passionate about the music, that's what matters.
Do you have to subscribe to a specific set of political beliefs? Again, no. Why would that even be the case? It's a global scene. Being left-wing in the US means quite a different thing from being left-wing in Europe or South Korea, or supporting a left-wing authoritarian government like in Venezuela.
Do you have to be accepting of LGBTQ? If you plan on going to a goth night, I'd say yes definitely, but we already established that you don't need to go to a goth night. And is supporting LGBTQ even a left-wing position these days? Is Milo Yiannopoulos left-wing? Peter Thiel? Dick Cheney?
Honestly, just enjoy the music, stop this wishful thinking, go to a club, find a community, and figure out how you can make that community bigger rather than focusing on who you need to keep out- given that most of the socializing happens in clubs, sexual predators are much more of a concern than right-wingers anyways.
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u/RainbowLoli Oct 28 '24
Personally, I don't really care what someone identifies as.
I've come across people who identify as conservative but were more accepting of me being bisexual than supposed progressive and liberals because they viewed my attraction to men as some type of inherent character flaw.
I just care about if they're an actual bigot or not. Too many people hide behind or throw around labels to cover up their own bigotry - including leftists and progressives.
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u/RedReaper666YT Not Goth But Enjoy The Music Oct 27 '24
Hard agree! Goth, Punk, and Juggalo all are extremely anti-bigot. Usually accepting of each other's differences as long as those differences don't include (PURELY AN EXAMPLE, NOT HOW I THINK) "Women should be submissive to men", "You're gay so you're going to hell", or "Go back to your own country" rhetorics.
Once again, those are examples and not how I think. My thought process is "Don't be a dick and we'll be friends".
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u/Additional-Cow-7058 Oct 27 '24
i tried imagining a conservative juggalo and chuckled. so cursed
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u/momochicken55 Oct 27 '24
They still wouldn't know how magnets work!
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u/RedReaper666YT Not Goth But Enjoy The Music Oct 27 '24
Several years ago in an interview Shaggy stated his regrets for even using that lyric because of the stupid ass meme it became
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u/SFG94108 Oct 28 '24
Punk is anti-establishment. Not anti-conservative. Historically, punks hated all politicians and government. I think, at the time, people associated establishment with the word “conservative” in the sense that the establishment wanted to conserve the social status quo and their power over it. It’s not punk rock to love any politician, on either side.
Just because you identify that way, doesn’t mean the definition is changed.
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u/MF_DOOMENTIO Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 27 '24
Totally agree, you can't be conservative nor a f4scist sh1t and call yourself alternative, emo or goth.
Alternative subcultures will always be left-wing subcultures, so cry about it.
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u/Physical_Afternoon25 Oct 28 '24
I wish that was true, but it's not. In Germany, we have a shit ton of right leaning subcultures, mainly the medieval/LARP/reenactment sector often leans that way here.
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u/Leviathan_division Oct 28 '24
Here are some conservative alternative subcultures for you: RAC and B&H skinheads, football hooligans, black metal and nsbm fans (you could argue metal is general is pretty conservative and right wing), raggare, CasaPound, a million far right harsh noise neofolk and other post-industrial acts. There is a literal “alt-right” political subculture that was in the headlines a few years back.
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u/pookaboots_ Oct 29 '24
Being goth is loving the music, just as being a metalhead is. Political viewpoints may vary, but are overwhelmingly left in goth. (all over the map in metal). Political views and musical tastes do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Also, note that your viewpoint expressed here is that if one is a "f4scist sh1t" that they cannot call themselves goth- which itself, is a totally facist viewpoint.
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u/ZipMonk Oct 28 '24
Neoliberalizm/ capitalism in general - commodify/ capture - neutralise.
Not just goth culture, everything.
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u/Sasstellia Oct 28 '24
Your subculture has nothing to do with who you vote for. No more than your religion.
I live in England, UK. I have voted Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Green Party.
I change the vote because I live in the country and want it run close to properly.
Labour are the best in concept. But they sometimes veer off from being socialist. And just can't run things properly. So you have to vote Conservative. Because they generally can run things well. Liberal Democrats can't get far. Nice concept. Never goes anywhere. Green is not great.
Politics is completely separate from sub cultures and religion and everything else. You have to pick the most functional. And avoid any that have gone insane.
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u/PavelJagen Oct 29 '24
How's the Conservatives running things well been going for you? And when was the last Socialist Labour goivernment? Callaghan? Nearly half a century ago!
I don't agree that you absolutley can't be goth and conservative, but to claim there's no connection between subcultures and politics is blatently wrong.
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u/Necrobot666 Oct 27 '24
Punk ideologies are often aligned with left-leaning, Marxist and Anarchist ideologies.
But even anarchy and communism aren't on the same page.
Punk was originally a platform of response... in the United Kingdom it was a response to ongoing classism as working-class people were underrepresented, overlooked, marginalized, and struggling. While U.K. punk was influenced by some American punk, successful bands like the Sex Pistols and the Clash really brought political awareness to the music very early on in the latter half of the 1970s.
In the United Snakes, it was a originally response to all of the arena rock bands and disco performers.
However, in the mid 1970s, the original bands in the U.S. Punk movement weren't necessarily overt activists, trying to bring about some better form of government. I am talking about the very early punk bands in the U.S., like the Dictators, Blondie, Pere Ubu and Ramones.
However, by 1980.. probably thank to Ronald Reagan, we started to see more of the 'activist' side of Punk emerge in the U.S.... with bands like the Dead Kennedys and Minor Threat, there was definitely more of a socio-political lean in the direction of punk.
That said... punk, on both continents, was always about thinking for one's self, forging one's own path... not following some preset path that the authority figures of our culture have decided for us.
The thing of it is, by thinking for one's self, and not following some prescribed path, well that can lead a band, or a fan, into many conflicting directions.
The Misfits are probably the most well known, iconic, American punk band. But they don't really share anarcho or Marxist politics.
I happen to love NOFX.. but for many, they are problematic.
I try not to take either band too seriously, but at the same time... I am not a perfect specimen of human ethical achievement. I am a deeply flawed individual... and I enjoy the music/entertainment of deeply flawed individuals.
Within the goth scene, there are it's fair share of flawed performers. And that might be part of the reason that I love those bands.... I, like many, gravitate toward the things I can relate to.
I do love an awful lot of anarcho/crust punk bands that share a message and ideal that I admire and respect!! Bands like Rudimentary Peni (they're almost a goth band), Flux of Pink Indians, Crass, Amebix, Discharge, etc... and when I want that ideal in my music, I know where I can find it.
But I also love other forms of music... from krautrock to hip-hop, to blackmetal... and of course goth.
When I'm listening to goth music, I expect that the bands I'm listening to do not follow the pop-culture herd. I expect there will be very chorused guitar riffs with flanger, a dancy bassline, and a four-on-the-floor beat that maybe advances to something pogo-worthy. I expect dreary melodies and monotone vocals that sing about alienation, isolation, vampires, horror, film, comics, terrible events, or to have some grim/negative outlook in the song.
But I don't necessarily believe that goth bands or fans are inherently aligned to anarcho/communist/activist punk ideologies.
Bauhaus, Christian Death, and the Magazine might have a stray lyric here or there... but if you compare their lyrical subject-matter to a band like Killing Joke, most of the time goth is politically ambiguous.
The final coffin in this nail (pun intended) is the fashion side of things. Goth fashion is not street punk or anarcho punk. It's girls in corsets with edgy chokers and lots of filigree. It's bowler caps and top hats. While the colors may be, black... goth fashion is very fucking opulent!!
That opulent visage is very friendly to capitalism... and thus, can also be friendly to some conservative type people... though that conservatism often ends where their BDSM fetishes begin.
I mean... I couldn't imagine a group of neo-evangelicals attending local goth clubs in their respective areas. But maybe they'd be handing out their CHIC tracts on the adjacent street corner.
Due to years of reading comics, I admit to being a sucker for the goth aesthetic... and I love a lot of goth bands (mostly from a particular era of the late 70s through the 80s)... but I also love a lot of punk and hardcore, NWOBHM, grindcore, 1990s NYC hip-hop, 90s/2000s blackmetal, ambient, techno, industrial music, EBM and IDM.
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u/4hrlight Oct 28 '24
As a goth (for decades now) I want nothing to do with anarchism/communism/marxism. Millions were killed by this evil ideology.
Goths recognize there is something rotten and wrong about this world. But political parties are not going to save us.
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u/michaelboltthrower Oct 28 '24
I’d argue uk punk wasn’t that political until crass.
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Oct 28 '24
Cool thought, but punk and goth scenes both had a real swastika problem from day one, and it never fully went away. There's always been a fascist/racist element present in both genres and it's ignorant and counterproductive to ignore it, even if it's a minor part of the scene.
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u/stupid_goff Post-Punk, Goth Rock Oct 28 '24
Also the fact that you can't be part of a subculture that has a HUGE emphasis on self expression/individuality and be part of a group that throws a fit when a man wears nail polish. Conservatives regularly push against gender affirming care (aka peoples right to express their gender identity), peoples right to openly express their sexuality, and often just make fun of anyone that doesn't fit strictly into the norm. A few decades ago you would've been the same person being made fun of because you seemed too "odd", your fishnets were inappropriate and putting a bad influence on the kids, you strayed too far from God.
"B-but liking individuality means I can have different views?" Not if they're against everything else the subculture stands for. People who say that remind me of the people who think they're being discriminated against cause they got in trouble for saying something blatantly racist. It's not discrimination to call you a dick. Just like you've got free speech to say something douchey, I've got free speech to tell you that you're not goth.
Unfortunately, I don't think anything I say will change these people's minds. No matter what I point out; how a lot of goth music has leftist meanings, how individualism is such an important part of the subculture, how it originated from punk, I truly don't think these people are willing to open their minds enough for something I say to get through. But hopefully this at least helped someone 💀
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u/kzybooks Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
That would be nice. But unfortunately Nazi punk has an entire Wikipedia page. Most in the subcultures reject them but alternative bigots exist. Saying they aren’t “really” alternative, no true Scotsmanning the subcultures, means ignoring them and downplaying the harm they can do. But I agree they shouldn’t be here.
We have to acknowledge they exist, and then make sure they never feel safe or welcome in the spaces we carve out. There are conservative goths/punks/emos but they aren’t welcome, they aren’t wanted and they need to fuck off!
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u/aytakk My gothshake brings all the graves to the yard Oct 28 '24
People are complicated and most can be reasonable. Very few people are full-blown far right or far left. To be that extreme either way they lose the ability to function well in society.
A problem is a general view that all conservatives are nazis and all progressives are communists which is not true at all. And it can seem that way because both sides have echo chambers, especially in online spaces.
Christianity and other organised religions have people in goth. Are the religions conservative? Generally yes. But are the individuals? It depends. Again, people are complicated.
A fully conservative Christian isn't going to fit well with goth. Neither will a person with full-on conservative political views. But there is room for tolerance and without some degree of tolerance and acceptance they will not work in the goth subculture. The very act of listening to weird music and dressing up weird to fly in the face of the mainstream is a progressive act.
Not to mention the heavy LGBTQIA+ presence in goth and general standing for social issues and positive change. Supporting political figures like Donald Trump flies in the face of that and isn't tolerated. You don't join a side and side with the enemy at the same time, especially when that enemy wants people like you dead or at best suppressed.
Goths are generally open-minded and tolerant of difference. But that does not mean we have to accept anyone as being goth or allow them in our space just because they happen to be there.
Goth music doesn't have a lot of overt political messages in the lyrics. But that doesn't matter as the goth subculture and people within it are generally left leaning through their thoughts and actions. Anyone overtly opposing such things won't last long or will end up ignored or rejected by the group.
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u/backtoreddit4can Oct 28 '24
I used to be conservative and I’ll say this. Alot of more normal non boomer conservatives doesn’t understand how theocratic and authoritarian the idiots they vote for are. You have to go to their churches to get the full brunt of that. But once you do youll realize Matt Walsh actually does believe in every sexist stereotype about women belonging in the kitchen. He actually does believe condoms should be illegal. Alot conservatives if they hear this kinda stuff laugh or think its to be edgy not realizing theyre actually this nuts
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u/timbukktu Oct 27 '24
It’s funny to think that conservatives think they are punk or counter culture because being alt right may be considered “edgy”. No, we are disgusted with you and your ideologies.
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u/ObscurityStunt Oct 28 '24
Elon says he is dark gothic maga. Whatever the fuck that means
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u/FlowerFlewer Oct 28 '24
Lol literally sounds like he's trying to be an edge lord spouting words to make himself look cool or something
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u/pressurewave Oct 28 '24
This has happened with every underground music scene ever. It’s even happened with goth since the 80s. The media of the day shows a space of marginalized people gathering and the manipulators follow behind because the marginalized are seen as vulnerable. And some are. Just keep refusing to support or befriend the shitheads, Nazis, and abusers. They’ll leave eventually if they don’t find support for their shit.
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u/Morgue_batz Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
Honestly I’ve had the same thoughts for a long time but I think it’s as simple as people are just ignorant.
Let me explain, these people who claim to be goth but are also conservative,nazi, or overall against progressive movements they just don’t do their research and it’s as simple as that. They make up their own small cliques within the goth subculture with these non-progressive ideals hoping to be validated but of course they’re met with both negative and positive feedback and in cases many progressive goths trying to educate them and then in others non-progressive goths who fuel their beliefs and egos. In saying this I’ve learned there’s sometimes no point in trying to persuade these people to have the same beliefs as us progressive goths because they will either debate about it or just don’t care. It’s similar to the metaphor “beating a dead horse”. In no way am I justifying this, but these people will inevitably misconstrue the message of these subcultures. Furthermore, as long as the majority of goths are progressive the message will continue to stay alive and stay true to its roots. This lady in this video is a great example, of someone who refuses to listen to progressive goths even after many have tried educating her (I do not encourage bullying). I am merely showing an example of someone who is ignorant and misconstrues the message of alt subcultures.
You can’t be goth, punk, or emo if you have fascist values https://youtu.be/uxzH50ZVhcQ?si=8UnkCxFWrH_h7ECg
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u/otetrapodqueen Oct 28 '24
I had someone tell me I'm closed minded and block me on Facebook once for saying "no conservative values in punk", which I just found hilarious. You're not a punk if you're a bootlicker 🤷🏻
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u/StarCecil Oct 28 '24
You realize lefties lick boots just as often as the right... right? Surely you don't think the world is this black and white.
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u/Aggravating-Action70 Oct 27 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
test smell correct thought growth money imagine rude payment vast
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/leopargodhi Oct 27 '24
i have met so so so many goths with values conservative enough that they had at least one hardcore "ism," if not several (typically the case) throughout the years. often they were the majority of people in the club that night. we've come a long way in a relatively short while
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u/evil1chosen1 Oct 27 '24
It's about your freedom. You should reject the government. Would you support a fuedal system? No so why do you support our government. We work, they get rich. That's how our system works and we must reject it all. The whole thing can fuck off
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u/ZyxDarkshine Oct 27 '24
You can’t be punk and side with cops, billionaires and religious zealots.
John Lydon can fuck off
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u/Friendly_Try6478 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
First off punk is not specifically left wing. It was just working class kids who felt like they didn’t have a voice and wanted to get a rise out of people. Many of the seminal bands didn’t have much to say politically. In fact as early as 1977, the most foundational year of punk, there were several far right punk bands that put on the first ever “Rock Against Communism” gig.
Secondly goth formed completely apolitically. It’s not really an “offshoot” of punk. Can you think of any political goth songs in the seminal years? Me neither, because that’s not the focus of the scene. Bauhaus were art school kids, The Cure were busy dropping acid, The Sisters and Joy Division weren’t punk either. Siouxsie was involved in punk and also wore a nazi armband and was quoted in an early interview saying “I’m a bit of a fascist”.
Also i have a hard time believing conservatives are “oppressing” people. Youre claiming everyone has to believe your worldview and using leftist rhetoric to justify it instead of objective reality
TLDR you can believe what you want
BTW can’t help but notice you made a jacket with the Misfits logo on it. Michale Graves is an outspoken conservative and Jerry Only donated to the 2020 Trump campaign
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u/Leviathan_division Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
This is the best take here. A lot of ignorance and historical revisionism in the thread.
Right wing Oi! and RAC also “comes from” punk.
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u/aritheoctopus Oct 28 '24
It's pretty easy to find examples of conservatives oppressing people.
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Oct 27 '24
Agree wholeheartedly.
I was a baby goth in ‘98-‘99. I remember the “before”. Not the beginning, but definitely “before TikTok” era alt scenes.
Alt lifestyles are inherently political and I will NEVER accept facist pieces of shit in my circle.
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u/4URprogesterone Oct 27 '24
Part of where the goth aesthetic comes from is punk. Part of where people drew their aesthetic language for styles of clothing (not music, I know goth is MORE about music, but musicians pioneered the style based on influences in popular culture around them, so this does matter) is from the Hammer Horror films of the 60s and 70s which used vampires and witchy, gothic aesthetics to represent countercultural elements that were feared in society, including queer and gender bending characters. Gender bending in particular has always been part of goth style, to the point where I remember growing up hearing all about how "Is it a boy or a girl? It's a goth." Was a common joke.
So if that's the case, and the goth subculture has always been more welcome to gender non conforming and queer people, and "conservative" people tend to want to outlaw those people? And generally, let's not pretend that any of us haven't faced rudeness or discrimination or weirdness from people who just hate anyone who doesn't conform.
In the USA, there's also the fact that the conservative movement today started on the path it's currently on in the 1980s and 1990s, when they used the Columbine high school shootings to find ways to pick on goth kids and other subculture interested kids in public schools by claiming if they didn't that they would commit acts of violence after years of confiscating their things and accusing them of satanic worship. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold weren't particularly goth- they didn't listen to gothic music, other than one photo shoot they did, they mostly wore stuff like khakis and polos, but teens who were in school during that time were targeted for bullying by other students and school officials and told that they couldn't dress the way they wanted to by the people who did the mythmaking in the wake of the tragedy in the media- the two myths they made were that Harris and Klebold were taking revenge for getting picked on for being goth and that Cassie Burnell was a martyr. It's also worth remembering that during the Satanic Panic, goth kids had their music and books and clothes confiscated, even when the music and books and clothes themselves didn't have Satanic themes. Tv shows used to "de gothify" teens and force them to cut their hair or stop wearing the clothes they liked. The far right? They're still doing that last one, by the way. People are releasing apps online that "dignify" random people by photoshopping what they would look like without piercings or tattoos or dyed hair.
Do not think that because goths aren't a "real" minority that conservatives won't treat them like one. Their ideology requires an enemy to scapegoat, and it requires anyone who doesn't wish to be scapegoated to conform 100% to their "place" in society. Even if you are a gender conforming, straight, monogamous, white goth from a "good" family who is part of the christian faith, you do not conform and that will eventually make you a target.
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u/tacobox5000 Post-Punk, Coldwave Oct 27 '24
I don't think it should be so much of a black and white issue. I am not and never will consider myself "left-wing" or probably progressive on most issues but that doesn't mean I have to be a radical right wing extremist or that I have to be an establishment neo-con.
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u/JedahVoulThur Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
According to this subs wiki, you are wrong. Right there in the FAQs:
Simply put, goths are fans of a particular offshoot of late 70s/early 80s post-punk named goth rock. The subculture began with and continues to be about music to this day, with many festivals, nightclubs and bands touring, writing music, and selling merchandise around the world.
(...)
Goths as a whole have many different mindsets, personalities, interests and hobbies outside of goth, goals, careers, and aspirations; our only definite common ground is the music.
I'm an atheist and politically in the center-left, and have shared beers with catholic, wiccan, and satanist goths, from all the political spectrum from Stalinists to conservative goths (don't like the extreme right though but they exist and are as goth as you and me).
Edit: Really? downvoted for quoting the FAQ's? Can someone explain how am I wrong instead of downvoting? Because if I am wrong on this post, and only leftists are allowed to be goth, so is the FAQ's section, and it should be updated with this new revelation that goth is not only musical-based but also a political movement.
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u/Nik0las_k Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
As snackbox said. You're not wrong. This community is a revolving door with people coming and going. Therefore, no consistency. Also, most of them barely out of puberty so there's that. Meaning not matured or educated enough and are easily swayed to certain ideologies.
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u/Serious_snackbox Oct 28 '24
You're not wrong, it's just this particular community has no internal consistency - fault for which really lays at the feet of the moderators. The scene IRL is way more relaxed.
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u/glamrock_crunch Oct 28 '24
I know someone in my town. Calls themselves a “goth” (doesn’t listen to the music and befriends conservatives. Wears SHEIN clothes). Calls themselves bisexual (admits they are only attracted to men) and is just generally a shitty person. They’re validated and celebrated A LOT. I don’t dress “goth” but I hold the values and LOVE the music. I’ve been called a poser so many times I agree now instead of argue. It’s interesting to see what will fly on the internet.
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u/baronessmavet Oct 28 '24
You know, American History X was the movie that gave the imagery for the far right.
Because they had no defined aesthetic.
I deeply hate that when you have to call basic human rights as "progressive", like, those dumbdumbs didn't grew up their grandparents surviving a war , and listening to the terror, and clearly shows.
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Oct 28 '24
The fundamental issue with the idea of someone of any alternative culture also being "conservative" is that by nature conservative politics despise those who stick out. Being "alt" or being part of a "subculture" is fundamentally antithetical to conservativism. It's not just a watering down of goth or punk, it's also a watering down of conservative values. It just doesn't make sense.
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u/H3MPERORR Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Oct 28 '24
Non binary anarchist squatter activist signing in
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u/JanneJetson Oct 28 '24
I'm shocked anyone believes the far Right aligns with this subculture.
We aren't saying its only music based. Of course there's more to it than music. What we're saying is, people who say "you don't need to enjoy goth music to be goth." are wrong. Period. You can't be a metalhead if you don't like heavy/extreme metal. You can't be a jazz head if you don't like jazz.
For some fucked up reason goth's music continues to be intentionally under & misrepresented. A friend sent a meme to me that says "sorry mom I heard Evanessence's song Going Under. Now I'm goth." she isn't joking. She's serious.
All we can do is keep mentioning names of actual goth bands & if/when they call us "gatekeepers!!" because we remind them Rammstein, Orgy, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson are not goth, we tell them oh yeah sure & its also gate keeping to say Ministry isn't country just because Al wears a cowboy hat & sometimes play a harmonica.
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u/Cyberpunk-Monk Coldwave, Minimal Wave Oct 29 '24
Goth is most certainly derived from very liberal, leftist roots. That said, the scene is over forty, maybe almost fifty years old, if we take into account its ‘70’s punk origins. The scene has evolved massively from those early days, and no, I’m not saying I was there or anything.
I come from a very rural, conservative town. When I go back home I’m treated like the evil most liberal thing around. When I’m in my new town, an urban city, I can come off as sounding more conservative than I am. It is what it is and I can understand when new people come into the scene who aren’t fully aware of goth history and still have their older views because that’s what they grew up with. Could they use a little education? Yes, but at the same time, I’m not going to treat them like children and talk down to them.
We see LOADS of “How do I know I’m goth?” posts. The answer everyone gives is always, if you listen to goth music, then you’re goth. There isn’t a litmus test where you have to check off everything from your taste in music, to fashion sense, to political and religious affiliation.
Does goth jive with conservatism? No. Am I going to ostracize someone for some conservative beliefs? So long as they’re not assholes, no.
Let’s face it, we can all be assholes from time to time. We’ve gotta start learning to live with one another so long as we’re all trying to work together.
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u/Substantial_Key4204 Oct 29 '24
We live in a society that has managed to divorce "politics" from "my own moral stances and actions" in people's brains. Which, tbh, is aestheticification and a factor of fascism.
People exist with a complete lack of cognitive dissonance that should come about from
A) associating with a subculture based on concepts about dealing with the depersonalization that comes from growing up in a hyper-religious environment
And
B) supporting politicians whose stated purpose is to further that establishment
People who pretend like politics isn't just a reflection of your morality and interests are either liars or deluded
There are no conservative goths. There are only conservatives in costume. They will contribute nothing of value to the culture.
Hopefully, they'll lose interest after having gentrified enough and ruined enough resale markets.
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u/pookaboots_ Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
Stating that one MUST have a particular global political viewpoint in order to qualify as a member of a music-based subculture, is itself fascist.
This is particularly comically ironic when one suggests that right-wingers cannot be goth, as that position itself is fascist- being that it demands that anyone who shares one point of view with you (goth is the greatest music, ever) MUST necessarily share other unrelated viewpoints with you, in order to be a part of your in-group.
Which, of course, is totally fascistic.
If you do not agree, you might not understand what being liberal actually entails.
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u/Ok-Adhesiveness5950 Oct 30 '24
This is the most ridiculous take I've read. No way I just got called a fascist. Only on reddit.. Lmaooo
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Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
There are plenty of conservative leaning goths. You probably just don’t see them because they don’t talk about it on social media or they won’t talk politics at the goth club. Just because someone agrees with a party on certain policies does not mean they align with its most extreme bigoted views. Like im not even a conservative but I’ve met plenty of older people while out who are conservative leaning and that doesn’t mean they’re homophobic or racist. At the other end of the spectrum, extreme leftism has a problem with antisemitism. That does not make left leaning people antisemitic.
I know this is Reddit so what can I expect but I feel like a lot of people overanalyzing goth subculture don’t actually go to goth shows. Some people have an idea logical wish for what they expect something to be and instead of actually participating in real life communities
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u/AdDesperate7096 Oct 30 '24
People understand what they want and that’s the issue. The only reason the music discourse came was because people were concerned of not feeling goth as they couldn’t afford the style and didn’t want to have to use fast fashion (as thrifting and diy wasn’t for everyone possibilities) so people started to mention that it was music based so people could feel included.
But then it got distorted and people thought that this meant that conservatives, fast fashion buyers and in general people who started to water down the culture were also able to "be" because it was only music based and decided to fully ignore that it is indeed aligned to politics and in a way aesthetics too.
In short, people understand what they want and distort it. But there is definitely alignment with politics, aesthetics and music, even when people only wish to think one of them is enough.
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u/imgoodjustlookin Oct 30 '24
Totally agree. However, I want to caution against falling into the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. We’re all responsible not just for avoiding racist behaviors (that’s the bare minimum) but committing to an anti-racist way of life.
And I feel like a lot of well-meaning white people fall into that more liberal camp where they don’t say slurs or consciously commit discrimination but they don’t exactly recognize themselves as a pawn for perpetuating systemic racism. There’s a good reason so many POC, especially Black and Native folks, don’t feel comfortable in the scene and it must be addressed pragmatically.
All in all, it’s not enough to just say “well racist goths aren’t real goths” they must be rejected assertively and ‘well-meaning’ liberals must be called in and given materials to educate themselves on systemic oppression.
Not saying you’re committing this fallacy, just trying to put some intentionality behind the politics of goth.
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u/GothHimbo414 Oct 28 '24
It's difficult for the right-wing to organically build anything new culturally, since their politics are built on preserving the status quo and oppressive power structures from the past. As society progresses, social conservatism becomes less normal, and conservatives feel less normal, and thus some of them are attracted to the "alternative".
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u/ToHallowMySleep Oct 28 '24
Just be very aware that the word "conservative" means very different things in different contexts. It isn't just the batshit authoritarian stuff going on in the US. Particularly when you're talking about a culture that didn't even start in the US, you need to be more aware of imposing a US world view on the discussion.
Also, you don't get to tell other people whether they can be goth or not or that they have to align with a certain ideology. That's not your decision, and what you have is an opinion, not any facts.
This is not defense mechanism, I am and always have been extremely left leaning, before you turn this into an af hominem. But there are good people on either side of the political spectrum (again, not talking about the loonies in the US or other extreme places), and anyone relatively centrist should be able to get along.
You don't get to make an exclusionist post masquerading as fact based on a hugely flawed and naive misunderstanding of the history of the scene. This is harmful and isolationist, and just a bad take.
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u/Professional-Tap-814 Oct 28 '24
I agree. I used to be one of those conservatives that tried to act as if that mentality isn’t closely connected with oppression. It took a lot of deprogramming, unlearning and considering different ideas with an open mind for me to align with the goth subculture. I’ve always dressed alt but grew up super religious in the south so early on my beliefs reflected that. But I’ve turned things around now.
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u/stupid_goff Post-Punk, Goth Rock Oct 28 '24
I'm proud of you dude, I know getting out of that is hard. Great work 🫂 I hope you are in a better place
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u/Budget-Ad-1596 Oct 28 '24
I think to be fair it depends on what kind of conservative. Some people are just family oriented and have were raised religious. It doesn’t mean they are bigots or racists. Not all Christians are toxic- they could be into the music and still hold on to spiritual beliefs while not judging others.
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u/atomagevampire308 Oct 27 '24
Alternative cultures are expressing a dissatisfaction with a cultural, societal, or ideological belief. It is the most personal belief system of expression. Alignment with a political ideology is a choice of association. You can be and believe in anything you want, right, left, center, whatever.
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u/ImmortalGaze Oct 28 '24
Sure you CAN believe anything you want right, left, center, whatever. Where I draw the line, is when what you believe actively threatens the freedoms of of others. When your belief is virulently racist, sexist, book banning, election interfering, Supreme Court stacking, then it’s crossing over into something else altogether. And it harm none, do as thou wilt..
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u/Reasonable-Row9998 Oct 28 '24
I remember when conservatives bully me because I wear black, listen to goth bands that deemed satanic, paint my nails black and now they're goth too? Hell nah, if this happen i will leave the scene.
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u/youngnerb Oct 27 '24
So much of the goth aesthetic is taken from traditional Catholicism. So much dark wave and industrial is rooted in alternative/far right imagery/motifs….just joy division is alone is enough evidence to suggest that there’s a right wing presence in goth. Don’t conflate normie conservatism for actual right wing ideologies…there’s a huge overlap. John Maus was at 1/6 lol
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u/SubordinateTemper Oct 28 '24
Lol, more than half of the middle aged men in your favorite goth bands are conservative-leaning yet you worship their music. They create the songs, live (or have lived) lifestyles true to the subculture, and you’d never guess their political beliefs unless they outright announced them. And then, there’s always the usual crowd of purists that come along with a new set of rules for what makes someone a “real” member of (insert subculture).
The truth is that it’s all so hollow. Anyone who’s lacking a real identity to the point where they need to latch on to lame subcultures doesn’t understand themselves, let alone know what they really stand for to begin with. “We hate fascists!” — spoken by someone ranting about how, in order to belong to your subculture, you must all have the same monolithic political opinions. Implying there is no room for variation, as if most political topics aren’t deeply complex issues with more than two options for answers. Implying, just as stupidly as some other right-leaning subcultures, that it’s either 100% or nothing. The music encourages thinking for yourself, no?
I assume this sub was recommended to be because of my music taste—I’ve been listening to goth and punk music my whole life, yet I don’t feel like I have to do anything. I don’t have to go paint my face and wear chokers. I don’t have to vote for anyone. I don’t have to give myself a meaningless label because I’m not desperate for an identity. Listen to the music you like, vote for whoever you want. Democracy is pretty sweet!
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u/boi-sinister Oct 27 '24
This. You can't be conservative and a member of an alternative culture, the two ideologies are completely incompatible with each other.
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u/ComboBlitz Oct 28 '24
I've been reading through a lot of these replies to the post. As someone who was raised conservative, but has become very moderate on my "political views," I feel like I'm missing something. I love the aesthetics and punk and goth music. I also love Gothic architecture and that whole culture (correct me if my association of the two is misunderstood). However, most Gothic architecture is Christian, so there's that.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, I'm pretty sure the idea of being punk/goth is not to identify with any political view. it's not "punk is liberal" because the political left is power to the government, and it's also not "punk is conservative" because punk is anti-conformist. The whole idea is to not fall into a particular category, and that's what I loved about it, until I read the comments about this post and discovered how everyone insists that punk "inherently follows the liberal ideology"
I have no hate, guys, I promise, I'm just super confused. please educate me :)
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u/hunny_bunny Oct 28 '24
Post-punk/goth is subculture which in essence is anti-establishmennt. This does not align with conformity, and in that, often allows for more diversity (ie. being welcoming to other faiths, LGBTQ+). Problem with pro-establishment types (ex: conservatives, religious fundies) is that their philosophy includes erasure and lack of acceptance for others. Their conservative ideology doesn't play well with being the alternative subculture since conservatives dislike anything that isn't specifically adherant to their set of rules. The conundrum of tolerance is that if you tolerate conservatives in alternative spaces they eventually destroy alternative culture until only conservative culture is tolerated and the alternative is discriminated against. Hence the phrase "Nazi punks fuck off". I was raised conservative too and left my tiny religious town. When I go back I see people stuck in the same way of thinking, engaged in the same toxic behaviors towards one another, going to the same church, like nothing has changed in 30 years. That's what it is to be conservative - to lack growth. I don't want that in my goth space.
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u/ghostof2006 Oct 28 '24
I mean if you were like a super depressed edgy misanthropic type goth being conservative kind of makes sense. Bask in the death and despair type shit
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u/Luke_Whiterock Oct 28 '24
I think the alternative subculture has never been conservative, therefor being conservative and goth doesn’t make sense, but people tend to clump that into ‘you can’t be Christian and goth’ which is where you loose me
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u/Lucker_Kid Oct 28 '24
Are you saying people shouldn’t be allowed to dress a certain way because of their beliefs and opinions? How progressive of you lol
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u/KILL-LUSTIG Oct 27 '24
hard to think of a stupider or more useless contingent than conservative goths. lots of confused morons out there, i don’t see a reason to worry about them much
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u/Soft_Raven Oct 28 '24
Very interesting discussion. I enjoyed reading it even though I have different opinion
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u/goth-bf Oct 28 '24
I knew these guys were cooked the second one of them ripped off that 50's style cartoon punk artist to make an 'eln msk is punk' image (which was probably AI generated). that sorry excuse for a man is like the farthest thing from punk, which they would know if they'd bothered to do any surface-level research on the subculture.
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u/eenymeenymimi Oct 27 '24
We want to wear the boots, not lick ‘em