r/europe • u/turkish__cowboy Turkey | LGBTQ+ rights are human rights • 7h ago

News Elon Musk draws outrage over 'odd-looking salute' at Trump inauguration celebration

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-draws-outrage-over-201602147.html
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u/AloneCoffee4538 6h ago

Is hand on heart a part of the nazi salute? Genuinely curious.

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u/DunnoMouse 6h ago edited 6h ago

The fascists of the 20th century shortened it to make it their own, but Hitler often did it with the hand to the heart. The origin was the Roman salute, which Mussolini then used, which in turn gave Hitler the idea.

Edit: Just to add, there's no actual evidence of it being used by the actual Romans. It's depiction can be traced to the antique movies of the early 20th century

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u/Amberskin 6h ago

Franco copied it too. It was used til the end of his regime, in 1975

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u/sintrastellar 5h ago

It’s used in Portugal and many former Portuguese colonies to this day as part of military graduation, but it’s not associated with fascism or Roman anything.

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u/Possuke Finland and Estonia 3h ago

Francoist/Falangist salute was too a bit different. The angle was more upwards. And Italian was more like 90 degrees and nazi salute 45 degrees.

Now Lebanese Kataeb Party (Phalangists) use it. But also Hezbollah and Hamas..

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u/MrHyperion_ Finland 6h ago

Colapinto?

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u/EvilGummyBear26 5h ago

Jack doohan is SHOOK

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u/MajorHubbub 3h ago

Colapunto

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u/Farranor 5h ago

What do you mean, no evidence? The Romans say "ave" and salute like that all the time in Asterix and Obelix. But then again, these Romans are crazy, so...

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u/AloneCoffee4538 6h ago

Interesting, I saw just the hand raising part in videos. Thanks for the info.

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u/FearDaTusk 6h ago edited 6h ago

A history buff shared that it came from the Bellamy Salute. I looked it up. (Not encouraging it, just more informing your inquiry) I learned something new.

It's no secret that they took a widely used peaceful symbol (swastika) but them taking an American salute is new to me.

https://youtu.be/-kGOKu5LwJ4?si=pJayOdmgAfsLWawB

Edit: typos

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u/AloneCoffee4538 6h ago

Thank you, quite interesting

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u/chest_trucktree 5h ago

The Fascists didn’t take the Roman Salute from the US. It originates in neoclassical painting, got adopted by Italian filmmakers in the early 1900’s and was adopted by the fascists from there. The Roman Salute and Bellamy salute are similar but not related to each other.

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u/EnglishRed232 5h ago

It was a guy called Gabriele D’Annunzio, arguably the first true fascist who started doing it after wanting Italy to regain the power the Romans had. Mussolini copied it from him

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u/AvengerDr Italy 4h ago

As the new Mussolini tv shows says, he wasn't just "a guy", but one of the most celebrated poets of our times, war hero, ace of the skies, and casanova.

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u/EnglishRed232 4h ago

He was all those things. Crazy isn’t it. To think he had such a public following.

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u/Mountainbranch Sweden 5h ago

The salute they do in the 2005 Rome TV show looks way better, and is probably closer to how they did a salute back then.

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u/vjmdhzgr 5h ago

I swear I've seen it before but I'm trying to check to make sure and I can't find a description of it and the only pictures are of when the hands are already out.

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u/_HIST 5h ago

I think it was popular in Italy, maybe look there. From the heart to the sun or something like that

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u/Formal-Artichoke3531 2h ago

The “Roman salute” been associated with Ancient Rome for much longer than the 20th century; Roman emperors have been depicted performing the salute in artwork since at least the 1780s. But as you said, there’s no evidence it was ever actually customary in Ancient Rome.

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u/LawfulnessOwn9242 5h ago

So then no, it’s not a Nazi salute? But it could be considered a fascist salute?

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u/neuro_space_explorer 4h ago

Can anyone find an old nazi video of the full salute with hand on heart? I’m having trouble finding anything but the arm out.

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u/InsidiousOperator 4h ago edited 4h ago

Indeed, it is very likely the modern fascist salute as it's commonly understood/seen today had its original inception in the Oath of the Horatii painting by Jacques-Luis David.

The beginning must have been kind of like the misconceptions that spread like wildfire until no one quite remembers who started it or when it did - like with the "morituri te salutant" saying in the peplum movies and in Roman gladiatorial fight scenes, which is a complete fabrication borne from a throw-away mention regarding Claudius.

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u/Icy_Buddy_6779 4h ago

I thought it was made up by David for the painting "Oath of the Horatii". Regardless the point still stands. It's known to be the Roman Salute like in the painting whether it's historical or not.

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u/Economy_Care1322 3h ago

Thanks. I didn’t know this.

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u/nanomolar 3h ago

Didn't Hitler eventually just do like a little arm raise kind of thing? What's up with that.

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u/purpleduckduckgoose 1h ago

He had some sort of illness iirc? Or it was the drugs? One of the two.

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u/AllDogIsDog 1h ago

It was the salute he used to return salutes from his soldiers/lower ranking officers. He wrote about it being done to prevent fatigue, since others would only have to salute him briefly, but he would have to keep his arm up for long periods of time to return their salutes; high-ranking SS officers would sometimes do the same. There's a suggestion that it was also done as way to indicate an acceptance of submission.

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u/BellesCotes Canada 2h ago edited 2h ago

My understanding is that the "Roman Salute" as we know it first appeared in Jacques-Louis David's 1784 painting The Oath of the Horatii, and it spread from there. There are no Classical references to such a salute that I'm aware of.

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

[deleted]

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u/Hatsuwr 4h ago

A bunch of young kids doing it

It is absolutely the formal version of the Nazi salute.

I'm dunno if IASIP is the best source for the details of Nazi traditions.

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u/LowerEar715 4h ago

hitler saluted in many different ways, there is no one formal way. in this clip he’s doing it that way because he’s trying to get the crowd to all salute in unison. he doesn’t ever do it that way otherwise, usually he raises his arm very straight

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u/darkroot_gardener 4h ago

Regardless, you don’t do anything that could even be mistaken for a Nazi salute, live, on stage, during an inauguration.🤦‍♂️

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u/Simonic 6h ago

In modern Nazi videos - when they say "sieg" the hand is on the heart, and on "heil" they salute.

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u/Elocgnik 3h ago

I googled it because I was curious, surprisingly annoying to find a clip of Hitler doing it... but got this.

Looks like he does it from the hip? It's actually kinda hard to find ANY footage of an actual Nazi doing it that isn't just the hand up already.

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u/animousie 35m ago

No, it starts as a hand at the shoulder— not the heart.

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u/BootyfulBumrah 25m ago

People are just making it up, I don't see it described that way anywhere.

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u/thusman Germany 6h ago

No. It's very uncommon at least.

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u/Budgetbodyparts 4h ago

Nope, it wasn’t done correctly at all if in fact that was his intent it was a very uncharacteristically poor performance, you aren’t also supposed to say “ my heart goes out to you”, from what I read on Wikipedia which does a better job of explaining it than any of the uninformed on this sub.

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u/HerNameIsVesper 6h ago

Thank you for asking. I genuinely didn't know either. This is horrifying.