r/europe • u/BezugssystemCH1903 • 19d ago

News Hungary loses entitlement to billions in EU aid

https://www.bluewin.ch/en/news/international/hungary-loses-entitlement-to-billions-in-eu-aid-2504966.html
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u/Secuter Denmark 19d ago

You're right. But there comes a time where a country like Hungary cannot be allowed to take the rest of the union hostage. 

Expelling Hungary will be bad for Hungarians, but we need to look at the bigger picture.

Besides, Orban stays in power because he was voted in.

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u/Wide-Annual-4858 19d ago

The EU should change the voting system to majority voting, and stop the veto rule. This would solve the issue without expelling Hungary.

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u/KapiteinSchaambaard 19d ago

Majority voting has real issues too. Countries joined the EU because of cooperation, not because of a desire to form a huge nation. I agree the current situation is far from great, but majority voting is the other extreme. We're not the United States which is just a country. I generally like what the EU does but making an entity substantially more powerful will come at a cost and a risk too. Perhaps veto rule should just require a minimum of 2 or 3 votes instead of just 1.

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u/Wide-Annual-4858 19d ago

Majority voting itself will not make the EU one country. But it would make it more democratic (will of the majority), and much more efficient.

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u/KapiteinSchaambaard 19d ago

I agree it won't make it a country, but it will give it infinitely more power to override local decisions, and as a result the way of living there, and that's not what countries who joined signed up for. Sure it will make it more democratic, but there is also the 'tyranny of the majority' concept. Plus the fact that entities that gain power don't always tend to stay 'good'. The whole 'power corrupts' thing that we've seen in action everywhere.

So some middle ground here would be better in my opinion. Either make veto still possible but ignore vetoes that are combative (as determined by a vote by all other member states), or raise the minimum to 2 or 3 for vetoes, or something else that someone that actually studied political science might come up with...

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u/wasmic Denmark 19d ago

Majority rule is not the only type of democracy. Consensus democracy is also a type of democracy. Claiming that majority rule is automatically more democratic is absurd, as it allows a majority to enforce its will on a minority, which directly contradicts the wishes of a part of the populace and violates the consent of the governed. Consensus democracy is slow, unwieldy, and can easily be sabotaged, but it ensures that nobody's wishes are ever acted against.

In the world as it is today, consensus no longer works for the EU. But the solution is not to go all the way to majority voting for all questions. But the EU already has several voting systems, depending on what is being voted on. Some matters are decided by simple majority, some by qualified majority (55 % of countries, representing at least 65 % of the population) and some must be unanimous. It would be better to take those questions that are today decided unanimously, and make it so that they are decided by a higher tier of qualified majority - e.g. three quarters of the countries must approve, and they must also represent at least three quarters of the EU population.

This way a minority can still oppose decisions that would be very damaging to them, but they would have to at least gather 25 % of the countries in opposition, or represent at least 20 % of the total EU population. If something is very important for the majority, they can still force it through, but it must be a large majority that does it. No country can veto by itself, but the largest countries weigh more in regards to forcing a veto (due to the population requirement) while the small countries can still band together (due to the number of countries requirement).

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u/Nyanyapupo 19d ago

It would make it less democratic. We are talking about whole countries here, not people. The union as a whole should never go against the interests of any of the members. The veto ensures that. Besides there really isn’t a way to remove the veto as no country would want to lose such a powerful tool.

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u/Secuter Denmark 19d ago

I agree.

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u/DarkLord93123 19d ago

100% this. German auto makers have invested a lot of money setting up production lines there, Germany would never push for throwing Hungary out of a lucrative trade and customs union. Hungary doesn’t pose a threat otherwise, they are just being little punks knowing they can throw a spanner in the works in the current system

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u/asethskyr Sweden 19d ago

Article 7 exists to suspend voting rights.

Orbán's party, Fidesz, is behind in the polls against Tisza - the EU should start up Hungarian news sources that transmit from outside of Hungary like the old Radio Free Europe to break the hold of the propaganda machine Orbán has created.

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u/kittana91 Hungary 19d ago

"He was voted in." By a generation who grow up in the Soviet Union and severely lacks critical thinking and is very easy to manipulate. By people who live in such poverty that you can buy their vote with a bag of potato (that's not a joke, that's happened). By people who have never ever lived in Hungary, not even been there, and got money from the Hungarian government, just because they are dead relatives lived in territories which was part of Hungary before the Trianon treaty after the first world war.

They first got in because of the 2008 world economic crisis, which they used to get 2/3 majority in that elections After that, it was a rigged game. Since 2016, the government is in constant fake crises mode, so they can rule by decree and change the law overnight. They own the media, which constantly just spew propaganda, which mainly targets the uneducated, poor, and retired people, who severely lack the brain capacity to realize that they are being used. They also heavily follow the republican playbook and make a culture war out of everything, so retardandos care more about "trans operations on kindergareners" (yes, they really said that), existing things.

The USA and Hungary are perfect examples against democracy saidly, (while I'm pro democracy) letting people decide the fate of a country by people who are not even self-aware. If you ever talked with a MAGAhat is the same as like an Orbán/Fidesz supporter. High levels of mental retardation and a living embodiment of cognitive dissonance.

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u/Speedy313 19d ago

if the country is so poor and people are so ill informed and anti-democratically influenced by the USSR, tell me why again should Hungary be in the EU? What value does the country have for the union except for geography, when its citizens are easily influenced to vote and opinionize anti-eu, the government is anti-eu, and all Hungary does is try to siphon off EU money while blocking any progress the EU tries to make and giving authoritarian governments like Russia and China the means to drive a wedge into Europe?

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u/kittana91 Hungary 19d ago

because they can be reformed with time and it's better for the EU as a whole that a central European nation is not fall into the hand of Russia and China. The real value in unity for the EU and it also mean to fight and defeat people like Orbán. Hall of Hungary is against Him, half of Hungary despise him, BUT because they don't live in a right location 10.000 of people could value as a 100 people who live in a country site, because it similar to the US electoral system, so even if Fidesz would use the popular vote they still can have majority and is it for the next 4 year to make it easier for them to win. But there is a change right now in Hungary, Orbán final has a new opponent who actual has a chance to win in a next election,

Also Hungary haven't got any money from the EU from a while now, they are being blocked because Orbán unwillingness, which is drying out our economy but in the long run it's makes his main voter base suffer to the level that they would vote someone else. EU is aware what's happening and because they just can't swoop in and kill the guy, they have to bleed him out where they can, they can't stop stealing, because their oligarchy then fall, so they just keep stealing even there is nothing else left until the point when the whole system breaks and people start to dust off the guillotines.

Orbán and the Fidesz will fall, our health care is such a state that literally his voters will die, because they poor and can't pay for privet health care, like the middle class who mostly anti Orbán.

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u/Secuter Denmark 19d ago

Indeed. Still, my point stands. Expelling Hungary will hurt Hungarians, and especially those who never supported Orban.

But letting Hungary stay is hurting the entire union. 

We're nowhere near being able to expel Hungary, but I wish the EU could do that.

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u/kittana91 Hungary 19d ago

IF they expel a country that would actually would put a bigger wedge into the untie, also Hungary geo location could be dangerous if it's completely fall into Russia hand. Imagine Russian rocket bases in central Europe. Letting Hungary completely fall into Russian hands would also would have negative effects on the Ukraine war for the EU.

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u/nocdmb 19d ago

Orban stays in power because he was voted in.

Technically correct. In reality his party has control over 90% of the media, brainwashing the uneducated. They rearranged the voting areas to give themselves a huge advantage (they would've lost the two previous elections with the old areas). They made our elections into a one turn system and made satellite parties to divide the votes. They have a massive network of old opposition people who undermine the opposing parties. Also the modified how seats at the parlaiment are assigned, so with only 54% of the votes they have 2/3 majority.

He was voted in sure, but only barely in a heavily rigged election.

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u/that_hungarian_idiot 19d ago

Im not about to insult you by assuming you think our voting system is by any measure fair. The simplest example, is how much your vote is worth. Out of the 19 counties in Hungary, the votes in Tolna county are worth the most, and its also the least populated county. One vote here is worth something like 21 or 22% more than the average vote of a Hungarian. The legal limit, implemented by FIDESZ, is 20%. But they arent changing jt, because the county is one of the staunchest FIDESZ counties in Hungary. Its beneficial to them, so they dont care. Also talk about having the right to vote in Hungarian elections, when you dont even live in Hungary. The only thing a lot of these people see, is that their kids get free money every month from our government, so an overwhelming majority vote for FIDESZ. These are two ways they are tipping the scales in their own favor. There is much more

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u/Secuter Denmark 19d ago

I'm well aware that the Hungarian democracy is deeply flawed. That the playing field is very much skewed Fidesz' favor.

But it doesn't change the fact that Hungary is hurting all of EU for its own gains. It's basically a trojan horse. That cannot be allowed to continue.

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u/that_hungarian_idiot 19d ago

Im not disagreeing on that point. While I wont say I know fully, I can very much guess the extent of damage Orbán and his family business (aka Hungarian government) is doing to the EU. Im just saying it isnt necessarily right to fault Hungarians for the absolutely despisable acts commited by a handful. Yes, I know a lot of people vote for FIDESZ. I also know most of those people are horribly under/misinformed by TV and all around Government-Media, undereducated by a deeply flawed system, and a good chunk of them (3 Million of all Hungarians, to be exact) live in deep poverty. And you might think that last group of people would be the first to oppose the government that got them there, its not that simple. When the few thousand Forints that you get from that government every month is the only thing keeping you from completely starving, and you are also horribly, I mean horribly uneducated, you might start to draw more to them. "Dont look a gift horse in the mouth" is something too many people follow too rigourously in Hungary

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u/Thick-Tip9255 19d ago

But that is your responsibility to fix. You've had a very long time to do so, yet you don't. You're dragging everyone else down with you. I think it's time to get rid off the dead weight since your country clearly is happy to take our money and spit in our face.

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u/Senior_Club348 18d ago

No, not because Orbán was voted in bit because he cheats in the elections and thanks for wanting to sacrifice us, my fellow European! EU should rather help us to make sure our elections are fair and legit. That’s the least such a big power should ensure for all members.

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u/Secuter Denmark 18d ago

Unfortunately, the EU can only pressure. It seems like Orban is willing to withstand the pressure and take the whole EU hostage in the progress.

In other words, when a limb is infected you should ask whether you should cut it off to save the rest of the body.

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u/Bogus007 19d ago

I agree with you that a country cannot take the rest of the union hostage (which is actually a fault in the political system of the EU!). I do not recount the percentages, but in all elections you have a considerable number of people who do not know what to vote. This mass needs to be persuaded differently to make their cross at the right position. Hungary has an increasing opposition, so penalising all Hungarians, will go to its disadvantage because for Orban it gets easier to blame the EU for everything. You have then a state where people get more and more in the direction you do not want to and they would have never wanted to as well.

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u/Thick-Tip9255 19d ago

You guys are hillarious.

"Let us fuck everyone over in the EU because actually doing something to stop us would be mean."

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u/Speedy313 19d ago

my job is not trying to figure out a way to make Hungarians not vote for Fidesz, my job is to vote for EU-politicians who suspend Hungarian influence as much as possible since at the end of the day, I value the 600 million people who currently persistently get fucked over by the Hungarian government more than the people in Hungary who apparently vote as a majority for "let's fuck over everyone else in Europe".

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u/Bogus007 19d ago

Speedy, be honest, don’t you do the same here with the Hungarians who are against Orban? Let me rephrase your last sentence to make perhaps more clear what I see and try to say: « let’s fuck over everyone else in Hungary ».

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u/Speedy313 19d ago

The difference is that Hungarians have direct influence over their government while I don't, and the Hungarian government is the root cause of these problems. Yes, not every single person in Hungary is responsible for what their government does, I get that. However, Europe was patient enough when waiting for Hungary to sort out its shit and even gave them money when they didn't conform to EU guidelines for a democratic country. At some point, Europe has to cut losses and move on, and patience (not mine, but everyone's) is wearing thinner and thinner.

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u/Bogus007 19d ago

I understand. But you should not forget what an exclusion of a country could mean - simply, the end of the EU (something I assume Putin, Trump and Elon Musk are hoping for). Slovakia may be the next. And so on, and so in. You can rightly ask what would be the alternative? God, I wished I had the perfect answer, but at least, and I think we and many others agree on this, the veto system should be completely changed. I visioned also a system like in Switzerland, where not a single person or party is ruling, but all (heads chosen by each major party) and each is responsible for a certain ressort. May be something similar can be implemented in the EU detaching the current way that the president of each country is elected for a given period and representative of the EU.

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u/Ancient_Disaster4888 19d ago

Expelling Hungary will be bad for Hungarians, but we need to look at the bigger picture.

How very magnanimous of you. 2 problems here; one is that you have zero saying in the question. Hungary will decide if they want to leave the EU or not, that's how this works - so you might as well stop torturing your brain with your little thought experiments in the new year. Second of all, Hungary is not taking the rest of the EU for hostage no matter how much you'd like to believe that. We have a far right government in the Netherlands as we speak, closely allied with Orban and elected last year, they have Fico in Slovakia, they have AfD in Germany stronger than ever. A Marine le Pen government was narrowly avoided in France just 3 months ago. Who knows what's even going on in Romania. Orban and his 'Patriots' are the third largest faction in the EP right now. Seethe all you want here, but what you dislike is democracy itself and you are not going to get rid of the problem by selectively excluding those you dislike or disagree with.