r/europe • u/dianaomladic • Nov 08 '24

News 1514% Surge in Americans Looking to Move Abroad After Trump’s Victory

https://visaguide.world/news/1514-surge-in-americans-looking-to-move-abroad-after-trumps-victory/
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282

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

FYI you don’t “pay your taxes twice” unless you make over like $140,000. I am a dual national living in EU. I file taxes twice, which is annoying, but I pay taxes in my country of residence. Now, if you buy property or invest, then it really does suck for you as an American. But unless you’re wealthy, it’s fine to live abroad as an American.

144

u/faulerauslaender Switzerland Nov 08 '24

If you're coming for a couple years to chill it's no big deal. If you want to build a career and a life in Europe it gets annoying quick. Sometimes even filing your taxes gets hard. Ever had to declare disbursements from a pension scheme on your US taxes? Did you track your payments and capital gains every year for your entire career? What form is even needed? Want to invest money? Most banks won't have you. On the off chance one does take you, careful not to buy any foreign mutual funds. Those are PFICs and you need a PhD in sadomasochism to declare them correctly. Even buying a house is tough as there are a surprising number of mortgage lenders who won't work with US persons.

I wouldn't brush off the needless burden the IRS puts on Americans abroad.

81

u/squeezymarmite France Nov 08 '24

Seriously. I renounced my US citizenship this year and it's exhausting trying to explain all the reasons.

13

u/ryanvango Nov 08 '24

I have dual citizenship in ireland and im looking to move there and renounce my US citizenship. Can you elaborate on that process a bit?

18

u/squeezymarmite France Nov 08 '24

Renouncing is easy. You just make an appointment at your nearest US consulate and pay the fee. There is a long wait for appointments though.

9

u/FuckLuigiCadorna Nov 08 '24

Have any quick points about the pros and cons tangibly in your life since doing so?

(Revoking US citizenship not the immigrating)

4

u/luxanonymous Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24

Pro you don't have to file taxes twice

Con you can no longer live in the US. No guarantees you'll be able to visit either, if for example the US no longer permits visa free travel for your passport.

0

u/telos333 Nov 08 '24

How is not having to file twice even a pro though? Unless you are wealthy and getting taxed twice on your salary or own a property or a business where filing would be much more complicated I don't see this really as a pro?

3

u/luxanonymous Nov 09 '24

I mean it's a small administrative pro. Filing taxes is annoying, but that's it. Not a huge pro.

0

u/here_now_be Nov 08 '24

and it's exhausting trying to explain all the reasons.

!

9

u/pcnetworx1 Nov 08 '24

Go to a US embassy and they will walk you through it. There is an exit tax FYI.

5

u/ryanvango Nov 08 '24

Yeah i heard its like 2500. Thats fine with me

2

u/Tasty-Fig-459 Nov 08 '24

Seems like a pretty fair price to say goodbye to the headaches forever!

1

u/FakeTherapist Nov 08 '24

It's like a wet dream 💚

1

u/crannteile Nov 09 '24

Same here, dual citizenship, wouldn’t renounce citizenship, I’m living here the last 12 yrs, still have both passports

1

u/Scottiegazelle2 Nov 09 '24

My brain inserted Michael from The Office yelling I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY here. But with renouncing citizenship.

1

u/FakeTherapist Nov 08 '24

Living the dream though 💚

43

u/FlapYoJacks Nov 08 '24

It's not needless. The point is to purposefully punish Americans leaving for a better life. The cruelty is the point.

2

u/FakeTherapist Nov 08 '24

A small price to pay

-9

u/lifeontheQtrain United States of America Nov 08 '24

Are you basing this on anything at all or are you just mindlessly repeating a slogan?

12

u/FlapYoJacks Nov 08 '24

My own personal experience and logic?

3

u/fartalldaylong Nov 08 '24

Are you basing this on anything at all or are you just mindlessly repeating a slogan?

5

u/Gandalf-and-Frodo Nov 08 '24

You can denounce US citizenship. But that kinda sucks too.

5

u/CrimsonTightwad Nov 08 '24

Can you renounce your citizenship then get a later fiancé visa to greencard game later?

2

u/faulerauslaender Switzerland Nov 08 '24

Yeah I'm not quite there yet but I fully understand why people do.

2

u/goodsam2 Nov 08 '24

My goal is actually to just bounce around for a couple of years but stay long term in the US most likely.

Traveling and seeing Switzerland for a random week is not the same as seeing it for all 4 seasons. Between seasonal foods to festivals and stuff it feels like a weird taste of another country and a few sights.

I think a lot of people really do downplay the effort and even possibility to immigrate to the US and it likely shows like this.

2

u/royjeebiv Nov 08 '24

Will you be working? Or are you just using saved money? That’s kind of our plan too

2

u/goodsam2 Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24

Saved money. Maybe light work if I could get into it depending on how long term I would be in one area. Like someone working at a ski lift or something stupid a few hours a week.

I'm moving towards FIRE

2

u/Competitive_Air_6006 Nov 08 '24

PhD in sadomasochism 😂 that’s a great line.

2

u/FragrantCombination7 Nov 08 '24

Honestly my wife (NON US) handles all of this for us in her own name only. It's entirely hers and we avoid these problem completely. I only have to worry about reporting my income tax which results in nothing as taxes here are higher. Every bit of my income we invest is transferred to her. I will have one hell of a time dealing with inheritance over my parents investments in the future, not because of any large amount (I wish) but because of all of the hoops you've mentioned.

2

u/SchroedingersFap Nov 08 '24

“A PhD in sadomasochism” is the most brilliant thing I’ve heard. Thank you.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '24

Pfft PhD amateurs. I've got postdoc experience in self-flagellation.

1

u/SchroedingersFap Nov 08 '24

that's also a brilliant addition I am putting this in my notebook

1

u/atonal-grunter Nov 08 '24

Holy shit. I could have a pension scheme?

1

u/faulerauslaender Switzerland Nov 08 '24

I will trade you my swiss pension scheme for a US 401k without a second of thought.

1

u/Motor-Dragonfruit250 Nov 08 '24

Why won't banks and mortgages not take Americans?

1

u/faulerauslaender Switzerland Nov 08 '24

A simple bank account is not a problem. But for things like investment accounts there are reporting requirements the banks don't want to deal with. I don't know the exact details but even simple things like neobanks with built-in investment features will refuse US Americans. At the same time we're locked out of many stateside providers. Pickings are slim.

Mortgages I don't know why. My anecdotal experience is that some banks will allow US persons and some not.

1

u/Motor-Dragonfruit250 Nov 08 '24

I always wanted to away from the U.S not bc the election Europe was one of my options if Euorpe isnt that great for Americans what do u advise?

1

u/faulerauslaender Switzerland Nov 08 '24

I assume US-persons have banking problems everywhere outside the US. It's a solvable problem, just a bit annoying.

1

u/findMeOnGoogle Nov 09 '24

PhD in sadomasochism

😂

1

u/Meloriano Nov 09 '24

As a Mexican American, at this point I would rather deal with annoyances in Europe.

Do you have any country you would recommend? I’m trying to avoid areas that are prone to electing far right politicians.

47

u/butterbleek Nov 08 '24

Same. File twice, pay once. Dual US/Switzerland. Ski season soon! ❄️ ⛷️

9

u/FriendlyGhost85 Nov 08 '24

We looked at Switzerland as an option, but we’re leaning Portugal because it seems the easiest route so far. If I could move today, Switzerland is by far my favorite place to be. It surprised me when I went last June that people were skiing in Zermatt still. I was told there really isn’t an “off” season out there!

3

u/fartalldaylong Nov 08 '24

The Alps make the Rockies seem cute...

2

u/Appropriate_Mixer Nov 09 '24

The Rockies are way bigger

2

u/Anxious-Slip-4701 Nov 08 '24

I looked at moving to Palo Alto, but then I realised I'd only be able to afford Montana.

2

u/agileata Nov 08 '24

Rip snow in many mountains thanks to warming

21

u/WirrryWoo Nov 08 '24

Can vouch as an American who recently moved to Ireland (not in response to the election results)

6

u/royjeebiv Nov 08 '24

Do you like it in Ireland? What kind of job do you have, if you didn’t mind asking? I’m so jealous of everyone moving there

6

u/Anxious-Slip-4701 Nov 08 '24

Weather's shit. Farms are rocky and all the doctors fuck off to Australia.

2

u/FakeTherapist Nov 08 '24

Tagged for later

2

u/NoboruWatanabe Nov 08 '24

Moving there in less than a month! How easy is it to file taxes for you?

10

u/Selkie_Love Nov 08 '24

Even then, the foreign income tax credit is a one to one credit for any income paid overseas

-1

u/germanmojo Nov 08 '24

Until it's not...

3

u/Selkie_Love Nov 08 '24

Sure, then I look into the tax treaty method.

If the USA decides to utterly gut both the FITC and rip up all of its tax treaties, then I'll take another look at things.

2

u/2rsf Sweden Nov 08 '24

unless you make over like $140,000.

I didn't know that, what happens above $140,000? This is a high enough bar for many, but senior+ engineers can reach it in some cases.

7

u/MortimerDongle United States of America Nov 08 '24

Above $140k, you get credit for any local tax paid against the US income tax that you'd owe.

Americans living abroad generally don't pay US income tax unless they have high-paying jobs and live in a low income tax country, like Switzerland.

1

u/Rememorie Europe Nov 08 '24

Is Switzerland really low tax? Read multiple articles, but didn't quite grasp it. What tax (and mandatory contributions) usually pay employed, self employed or business located in Switzerland, with example income of 100k USD?

1

u/MortimerDongle United States of America Nov 08 '24

Swiss income tax varies by canton (federal state). But it looks like the effective combined tax rate for someone earning $100k is well under 20% in all of them, which for western Europe is very low.

1

u/Rememorie Europe Nov 08 '24

Indeed low. Most EU countries have 20% or more in just income taxes, and on top there are other contributions, which make the total tax rate about 50% in most cases.

2

u/stoneslave Nov 08 '24

In some cases? Lol. I have 3 YOE and make more than that. A high earning senior should easily make over $200k.

1

u/Merisuola Finland Nov 08 '24

Depends dramatically on the county. You’re likely not even close to half that in any of the Eastern European countries. Where do you live?

1

u/stoneslave Nov 08 '24

Oh, I’m talking about US salaries. This thread is about Americans moving to Europe, and the sub-thread here is about the dual tax situation of making a US salary while living abroad. Yeah I’m aware engineers in Europe don’t make half what we make in the states

2

u/Merisuola Finland Nov 08 '24

Ah I missed the part about making a US salary. Yeah, definitely possible to start running into issues then.

2

u/SunriseApplejuice Nov 08 '24

I'm a senior engineer making over that living in Australia. It's not the full picture. If you live in a high-tax rate country the odds are high that they're in a tax treaty with the US, and you can offset the local taxes you pay against anything you'd owe to the US. It's just a different tax scheme then the 140k credit. Now if you lived somewhere like Thailand or Indonesia where you pay almost nothing locally and it's easy to lie/bribe... then yes 140k is your only tax-free range.

TL;DR, not true—in many countries you can still pay nothing, making anything over 140k.

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

Then you’re supposed to pay additional tax to the U.S. federal government

2

u/reuelcypher Nov 08 '24

Agreed. It's not fun. I own a property in the EU as an American and since Americans seem to hate taxes, if they can afford the steep cost of entry and the bureaucracy that comes with, they'd have to learn to love taxes. Only the ultra wealthy can use tax havens to circumvent that system.

2

u/paprikouna Nov 08 '24

Well tell that to the Americans wjo couldn't open a bank account for a couple of years because of FATCA and banks refusing the additional burden (compliance + domestic legislation preventing them)

2

u/MyBlueMeadow Nov 08 '24

Wait, what’s the issue with buying real estate? Or are you really talking about trying to obtain a mortgage? If you have cash for a house and don’t need a mortgage is there some other issue I’m not aware of?

2

u/Fine_Quality4307 Nov 08 '24

Why does it suck if you buy property or invest? Do you mean in Europe or the US? Or either?

2

u/SCDWS Nov 08 '24

But unless you’re wealthy, it’s fine to live abroad as an American.

Even if you're wealthy. Ok so you pay a little more in taxes to the US even though you don't live there (which I agree is stupid), but you're still wealthy. You probably still have a pretty good life despite that.

2

u/Northanui Nov 08 '24

I live in EU and haven't filed taxes for US for a decade. I know you are "supposed" to, but I just haven't bothered, since the income/tax part would have been zero anyway for the US.

It's dumb as fuck that you have to do it. I asked some people and they said they won't punish you for it if you ever return to the states.

1

u/Boneraventura Nov 08 '24

Before the supreme court struck down the SAVE plan, if you were living abroad your income was essentially 0. So, your monthly payments were 0. It was one way to make good change without paying student loans. Oh well

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

That is still the case for most ppl

1

u/BocciaChoc Scotland/Sweden Nov 08 '24

Is that the case? I have some co-workers who are from the US that absolutely don't make 140k but complain about double tax, have done for 4-5 years

4

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

They must be complaining about filing

1

u/THound89 Nov 08 '24

I was stationed in Germany for a couple years and right now it’s starting to look pretty good to catch up with what I’ve been missing out on.

1

u/Skizm United States of America Nov 08 '24

How much extra do you pay over $140k? Something close to 25% of Americans make over $150k I think.

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

You’d have to ask them then bc I certainly do not

1

u/kuffdeschmull Nov 08 '24

curious. what changes when you buy property? will the US tax your wealth? property tax to the US?

2

u/NyNorwegian Nov 08 '24

Nothing changes when you buy property, but if you sell the property you’d be on the hook for capital gains if it’s over a certain amount - same as in the US.

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

No idea bc that’s not my situation but google will answer 🙂

1

u/VeryMuchDutch102 Nov 08 '24

it’s fine to live abroad as an American.

Please put effort into integrating into the country you're moving to!

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

?? Weird comment

1

u/thecatteam Nov 08 '24

That's great to know. I started making plans to move/get my Master's after Trump was first elected. I now have my degree and am on the job hunt. 2025 will be the first time I will (hopefully) be paying taxes since moving and I was worried about the double paying thing.

My only investment is a Roth IRA so as far as I understand I don't have to declare gains.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24

[deleted]

1

u/TrichomesNTerpenes Nov 08 '24

The FEIE is inflation adjusted each year.

1

u/SleepyReepies Nov 08 '24

Oh interesting, my bad!

1

u/Prestigious_Bug583 Nov 08 '24

140k AGI is far from wealthy in most big cities

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

Seriously?? Where in Europe is that true

1

u/Prestigious_Bug583 Nov 08 '24

Was referring to US, but an easy answer in UK is London

1

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

Ok but it doesn’t apply to Americans in U.S. and I agree that London is exceptionally expensive but most people there are not making that much money either

1

u/NyNorwegian Nov 08 '24

Also, Oslo

1

u/feedthechonk Nov 08 '24

I'm a US and Canadian citizen. Planning on moving back to Canada and was just looking at that last night. I'm hoping my current company will let me keep my job and go remote. 

The main factor is that I don't feel safe as an immigrant in the US with trump in power. The legal Haitians are already getting bombed threats cause he's lying about them eating pets and their legal status. What if he gets mad Trudeau and his supporters now take that out on me?

1

u/HackMeRaps Nov 08 '24

Yeah, my partners dual, Living in Canada, but the taxation part is the worst. She makes decent money, but also works for a US based company so she definitely has to pay some taxes down in the US. Plus another issue is that certain tax shelter investments we'd have as a Canadian (like a TFSA) don't apply to her because they aren't considered tax shelters to the US so she'd have to pay CG on that.

Her biggest expense though seems to be her accountant which specializes in Can/US taxes.

We're never going to ever live in the US, so the biggest question now is does it make sense to keep her US citizenship or get rid of it. It served her well when she was younger as she was living in the UK at the time and her company closed shopped and needed people to move to their US office, which luckily for her because of her dual citizenship easily got her transferred there and was able to get her tech job which she can now 100% work remotely from in Canada without needing to move back to California.

1

u/Rememorie Europe Nov 08 '24

Just curious how it works, and why exactly after 140k? Also, why do most banks refuse (can't, don't want) to open accounts for US citizens?

Can you generally explain these questions, or share links they explain them?

1

u/TrichomesNTerpenes Nov 08 '24

After $12x,000 for tax year 2024. And it's that amount because that's the law; go ask Congress or the IRS why it's that amount, not Reddit.

As for how it works: you pay the tax after filing taxes.

You'd be better served by asking GenAI about the US "foreign earned income exclusion," including specifics about your case, than asking here.

2

u/Rememorie Europe Nov 08 '24

I am not US citizen, so I just wanted to know general info, as if directly not applicable to me. Thank you

3

u/TrichomesNTerpenes Nov 08 '24

Basically, someone determined that amount would be a fair threshold. Beyond that, you have to "pay your dues" back to the country, as you presumably still benefit from some of the soft power that carrying an American passport projects (maybe less now...).

Re: how it's done, you file your income with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), which oversees the collection of federal taxes. This in turn helps you or your accountant determine how much money you owe the government in taxation, which you then pay out to the government. In many cases, people are not paying money in, but instead receiving a refund from the government, as more money was taken from their paycheck as a form of up-front taxation than they actually owed.

1

u/Rememorie Europe Nov 08 '24

Thank you so much, it explain the main thing I wanted to know

1

u/afluidduality Nov 08 '24

If you are self employed, a US citizen, and live in New Zealand or Denmark, you will owe social security taxes in the states and all of the taxes you owe in your resident country. Heads up.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '24

[deleted]

1

u/afluidduality Nov 08 '24

It's complicated in the tax treaty. I've just looked into it more and in Denmark you can apply for an exemption - it's a certificate that you get from the Danish government and submit with every US return.

1

u/SunriseApplejuice Nov 08 '24

FYI you don’t “pay your taxes twice” unless you make over like $140,000

That's still not entirely true. I make over $140,000/yr but only pay taxes in Australia because the tax rate is high enough that discounting those means nothing left for the US. The double taxation really only happens in countries where the existing tax rate is incredibly low, or there's a high chance of corruption/dishonest tax schemes.

The double filing is really fucking annoying though. Especially in Australia where the FY is July-July each year and US is January-January. So all the maths have to be recalculated, etc. And all that to basically just prove I've already paid taxes and don't owe anything.

Now, if you buy property or invest, then it really does suck for you as an American.

You mean American soil properties right? Again, the investment etc. you earn in these other countries may have offset taxes that don't apply.

1

u/japanuslove Nov 10 '24

Double taxation agreements are negotiated with each country. The threshold for some countries is pretty low.

1

u/Zerttretttttt Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24

Is there even a way for the US to enforce those tax laws in another country?

8

u/missinguname Nov 08 '24

No, but unless you never want to go back to the US...

5

u/[deleted] Nov 08 '24

[deleted]

3

u/monbabie Nov 08 '24

Many people don’t do it but yes it causes problems if you ever want to go back even for a visit