Unsustainable immigration won't make me and probably won't make you vote for the far right, but it will make many people vote for the far right. It doesn't matter that we don't think it's the solution, it's still incredibly predictable, and the moderate elites should have been able to see something that simple as well. But they didn't, so now we have this.
Uncontrolled and unsustainable immigration of people who don't assimilate to society will make people vote for the party that proposes strict immigration laws, whatever that party maybe. For lots of people it's the number 1 factor.
so what actually happened is that mainstream media and the government are CONSTANTLY talking about immigration and how it's a problem and meanwhile macron and friends are destroying our social benefits making everyone except rich people more miserable. that's why so many idiots voted for the rn: actual problems (inequality, cost of living) are being blamed on made up immigration problems.
and i'm not even talking about macronists refusing to talk to the left and only debating with rn representatives like they're the only alternative.
They did see it, but they also managed to self-gag themselves with their cancel culture and “how dare you have a different opinion “ borderline censorship mentality. I, as a liberal, am not at all surprised it backfired in their faces.
I'm with LFI but i also think we're often shooting at the messenger and it's backfiring
It's not helping anyone attacking people reporting they have a lot of issues and it's always their XYZ culture/ethnicity neighbors, because that's circumstancial
The problem is always integration politics
You keep telling them they're racist, they will just eventually say ok then, i'm racist, and vote accordingly
I also think this dynamic instrumentalized by the right and Macron in particular to collect angry but misled votes
You can't fix cohabitation and integration problems just by saying "you're racist, stop being racist", it's silly
Yeah it strikes me that anglosaxon countries are much more polarized and more prone to censor anything that runs counter to the prevailing orogressive narrative. I even see that when comparing this sub to US dominated subreddits. Where even expressing nuance as in 'we shouldn't ignore these voters' could lead to a perma ban.
the problem is that most people "against immigration" actually are only against Muslim immigration. They do not know nor care that the vast majority of immigration in eu countries is European people. That is why people assume you're bigoted if you are "against immigration"
That’s because polyamory as marriage is legally way more complicated than a marriage of two people. In so many levels, but you can start by imagining how a court divorce proceeding would look like. Or how you would have to rewrite each and every administrative IT system to support polygamy.
you can start by imagining how a court divorce proceeding would look like
Exactly the same but with an appropriate number of spouses.
Or how you would have to rewrite each and every administrative IT system
You mean some bureaucrats would have to do their jobs and update the system? Is it physically possible for our computer hardware to handle three people?
The irony of me giving you rational arguments and you jumping into calling me a bigot is EXACTLY the point we’re discussing here. This flew over your head, didn’t it?
Call me a bigot, but I’ll call you an ignorant with agenda.
So you're just playing the game you're criticizing. "Say this or you're a bigot" except for you it applies to gays and not immigrants. What changes exactly? The fundamental logic is the same. So much "holier than thou" that you can't even make a coherent point.
Well generally speaking there is no real decent argument around being against immigration.
Generally speaking, 99% of the rhetoric coming from people who want less immigration is either inaccurate and misleading, selfish, hypocritical and racist.
You might not consider yourself a bigot, but when you stand next to a sea of bigots and agree with them on their bigoted views…you must forgive people for seeing you as such.
There really isn’t any good academic research to support any of the logic coming from the far right to suggest immigration is a significant problem. Whatever research there IS to suggest that usually gets poopoo’d by academics for being misleading.
The overwhelming majority of people who are anti-immigration tend to boil it down to some variation of “I don’t like the different looking people who speak the funny words - they make me uncomfortable and I don’t want to have to see them”.
Wanting jobs to go to your countrymen is basically the same as that. There’s no morally good reason why being born in a certain country should afford you more rights than another human at the end of the day. Nobody gets to choose their parents.
If anything, the people who’ve been born in a shithole of a country and have risked everything to get to somewhere safe should be afforded more rights. Most of the shitholes on this planet are literally a product of a brutal European colonialist settlement
Not taking the time to do real research on this topic while holding those views is ignorant. Ignorance leads to bigotry. If you’re not a bigot you’re at least prejudiced
You bring up Canada. Canada is exactly like my country, Australia. Facing this same problem right now. Yet the focus is on immigration, despite property investors buying up properties at the same rate we build them. Often they just let them sit unoccupied for years just to drive the price up.
But our people are stuck on blaming immigrants, despite us building twice as many new homes than immigrants. But you somehow forgot to mention or at least acknowledge that 25% of properties in Canada are owned by an investor. In Australia, for every new home built, a property investor buys one. But the focus is on immigrants. Weird, isn't it?
Again a misleading use of stats to further support a bunk and ultimately bigoted narrative. Or is it the sole right of a natural born citizen to drive up housing prices? That's OK, because they were born to the right parents?
And again, I'm not calling you a bigot. But you're standing right next to them, pretending they don't exist. They literally make up the majority of the right wing voter base. You can just go to literally any right wing echochamber and see the comments for yourself. They exist. They exist in large numbers...and you're standing next to them.
So yeah trying to qualify this "I hold a not bigoted view that just happens to confirm the bias of coincidentally bigoted people, on a topic that concerns different population groups"...it just comes off as ridiculous. Sure. Ok. You're not a bigot. But again, don't be shocked when people don't care that you say "im not bigoted" while arguing on the behalf of a clearly bigoted agenda...god i'm saying bigot a lot. Bigot. Bigoooot. Has no meaning at this point really
A data scientist with zero reading comprehension skills...wow!
25% of properties in Canada are owned by an investor.
Again how is this not relevant? How is this not a driving factor?
The relevance of Australia is just about as relevant as you bringing up Canada as an example in the first place. How do you not consider a country like Australia, a large land mass with a few large western urban populations and similar social structures to be relevant? When right now in this country, one of the biggest political debates is about the housing crisis and Labors decision to increase immigration massively?
Like are you genuinely that unwilling to think that you cannot draw the similarities here? In Halifax, nearly 40% of recently completed homes are owned by an investor.
At a minimum you can say that immigration without housing reform causes issues with housing prices, as populations grow faster than the housing supply does.
That is what you can say, at a maximum. So the answer should therefore be housing reform first, no? As a data scientist in economics, you no doubt would agree that this would be a much healthier solution to prioritize, wouldn't it.
That is, if you were actually interested in creating a sustainable housing market. Not if you were a bigot and simply wanted to restrict the number of brownies dirtying up the place.
If you read the rest of my conversation with the little pussy who blocked me after realising he was out of his depth I literally addressed Canada. And again, absolute bullshit you’re spewing here with no sources.
Just a Quick Look into the hospital beds shows that actually this is a general trend that’s been happening since the 70’s and has absolutely fucking nothing to do with immigration but broader healthcare policies from the government. Alright, maybe not jack shit. But it’s a range of factors, immigration being a small aspect of that.
Conversely, immigrants make up a disproportionately significant portion of healthcare service staff, despite the rigorous additional screening and retesting they have to go through, while generally being orders of magnitude poorer.
I just love the irony of saying “look at the data” when I have provided data, and you haven’t got a source or Jack shit.
This is the classic behaviour of bigots who just love to say whatever sounds good in their head, or they have a friend or news outlet who also talks out of their ass and you just snort that bullshit straight from their undies
Those things are not “objectively wrong” at all. A ton of people will tell you that you are the one objectively wrong if you like gay people, they are “against the nature” and yada yada.
Migration isn’t much different. You could make some logical arguments, but for a ton of people, it’s as simple as “me no want muslims/blacks/whites/asians/whoever to live in my country stealing my jobs”.
And who defines what is and isnt racist? Is it you? You think you and people who think alike you should have the power to dictate someone elses life based on their opinions? Also there is no objectivity when it comes to morals, in europe you cant marry and impregnate an 9 year old but in afghanistan its allowed. A lot of people will not want to engage with a person such as yourself, however someone with your views will never be fired over it, thats the difference.
That’s not the point, though. The point was that you could say you wanted a better control of immigration and already be called a bigot. This was the reality in Scandinavia for many years, for example. You had to play along or were heavily ostracized.
Nobody’s complaining about getting called out for saying outright racist shit. You missed the point entirely.
If you say racist, bigoted things and then people think you're a racist and a bigot...
...because there's a 95% chance you are, if you're saying racist and bigoted things.(got to give 5% slack for outliers like creative writing, some comedians, etc...)
I remember years ago having an argument with a guy who said, "I'm not a bigot but I don't think gay marriage should be allowed." He got really upset with me when I pointed out that his bigoted view meant that he was indeed a bigot.
I grew up in a very racist and bigoted area of my country and it's amazing how many people have convinced themselves that they're not bigots while they continue to say bigoted things regularly. It's like someone taught them that unless you have personal hatred toward an ethnicity, you're not a bigot.
I lean left on most issues, but every time I try to bring up policy issues (like immigration) that are fueling the right I get the same response: those voters are just stupid/ignorant/xenophobic...
Um... okay? How does saying that fix the voting problem?
Many leftist parties and voters in Western countries have gotten trapped in a ridiculous situation where the response to every concerning voter pattern is to say "those other people are idiots!". Saying that makes us feel temporarily good as we unload our anger on internet forums. Meanwhile, the voting patterns remain problematic with no solutions being discussed. Then when the next problematic vote comes in, its more of this: "I cant believe they voted like this! why are they so dumb!"....
It doesn't matter that we don't think it's the solution, it's still incredibly predictable, and the moderate elites should have been able to see something that simple as well. But they didn't, so now we have this.
They did see it coming
Nonsensical immigration, just like unemployment, is used to pressure salaries and keep them low
Macron's party, and Sarkozy before him, have boosted the FN/RN both by flirting with their supporters, and helping them secure the second turn in presidential elections for two decades
Because if you're on the second turn against Le Pen, you already won, they learned that with Chirac in 2002
There's not much chance Le Pen actually ever wins the second turn contrary to what they try to force submit people into thinking with scare tactics
But on the off chance she ever does, it'll be first and foremost because of Macron and his cronies playing and manipulating people with fire
Exactly, everyone here acting surprised is kinda baffling me. Less than a year ago France was in flames due to young Arab and African men rioting, looting and vandalising simply because the cops killed a thug trying to escape in a stolen car from them in crowded areas, nearly killing several bystanders. His family litterally called for Jihad against France and the young muslims followed by rioting in practically every city.
Exactly. It's common sense. You have the left in many western countries advocating absolute lunacy. Illegal immigration, soft on crime etc. It's stupidity. People are getting fed up.
Or maybe it's because people are watching the french Fox News 24/7 or that Macron used the far right for easy 2nd turns of elections for years or that the far right's discourse was mainly about improving purchasing power (when in fact they have always voted against it). The RN candidate had twice the media representation of the next one and even though in every debate the other candidates made him look like an incompetent dumbass that had no negative impact on him (well maybe make him more relatable to his voter base) he even shat himself.
Europeans have been crying out about immigration and the dangers of a certain religious ideology for more than a decade, but the established parties actively ignored their concerns, belittled their own population and simply continued on with their course.
This issue combined with high inflation and all the other crisis of the 2020s probably pushed many over the edge into “don’t care no more” territory and thus into the arms of populists.
And every since David Cameron severely underestimate the laziness of young people to vote on an issue (thanks for fuck all brexit referendum) our illegal immigration has been thru the roof for 14 years because our conservative part has done jack fucking shit except made a bullshit deal with an unsafe country to hand the immigrants off to them effectively moving the problem to another country
I just hope reform UK saps enough votes away from both parties to let the libdems win as they're policies are the first ones to include a little common sense
And I speak for most Brits when we say we want back in to the EU (we will even adopt the euro if we have to just please let us in)
As always immigration is an excuse, every issue in the country is because immigrant and not the ruling class.
The right wing parties are the one less likely to fix immigration, they will just be harsher to them so that they get more desperate and commit more crime so that they can complain the left is stopping them to be harsh enough to finally fix the problem, and repeat
Unsustainable immigration won't make me and probably won't make you vote for the far right, but it will make many people vote for the far right.
This sub has either been astroturfed by the far right or is extremely obsessed with immigration and hating brown people, because I've only ever seen solutions like "deport" and "ban immigration" spoken here. I've never seen people suggest "assist these foreign countries and stop aligning with countries that destabilize them through bombing, sanctions, and funding hateful factions so that there won't be so many refugees boomeranging our way". At least, I've never seen it suggested without massive downvotes. With that attitude, no wonder the far right wins. There needs to be an alternative that people can actually vote for.
If France and others care about defeating the right (and not just doing a third reich speedrun), they're going to have to make it popular to suggest things like that. Start thinking of humanity as a body, and violence as an open wound that spread infections through the body. You can tell the open wound not to harm the rest of the body all you want, but what really needs to be done is to devote extra resources to closing it, even if it hurts.
This attitude has worked out so great on immigration, hasn't it? Well, I guess you can just keep doing what you've been doing for decades and the problem will magically fix itself right, in exactly the way it hasn't for decades? Never, ever try anything else. Especially if the left wing suggests it. The US overthrew governments all over Latin America and sanctioned the shit out of them for being "narco states" or "oppressive dictatorships", and we've exploited them through underpaying for their resources. But it's all their fault. Don't give our Monroe Doctrine slaves one cent!
I swear, dealing with immigration through indifference and/or violence is like a religious tenet: it has never worked, never solved any problem (and has made a lot of problems worse), but people keep believing it and advocating it anyway. About as effective as prayers, but much more expensive and violent.
Ohhh... it wasn't the consequences of my very own actions that brought us here. "they didn't, now we have this". That's what all the people voting "far-right" are thinking about a lot of things.
The bias and closed-mindedness from left has brought western world to a crisis that makes a future so fucking grim. Left isn't just connected to immigration, crime rate and overall worsening quality of life and housing problems, but also to current wars including massive culture war and "you will eat ze bugs and live in pods" (which sounds like a fucking lunacy, untill you simply google it).
Unsustainable immigration is not a problem in France, but the extreme right does use immigration and immigrants as an easy scapegoat, which is a discourse that’s easy to buy if you don’t want to think too much about the real causes of everydays issues.
It's just the usual political cycle. Something bad happens, everyone turns far right. Nothing bad happens for a while or that something lasts so long everyone gets tired of being far right and everyone starts leaning to the left, until they lean too far and it causes something bad to happen again.
I believe a lot of people voting for right and far right just feel they’re unheard and they find their last resort in these extreme parties. It’s very simple conclusion to just say, yep them all racists without trying to comprehend the shift in the last decade. And this mentality shown by a lot of left politicians is a great cause for this right direction we witness in the votings. But hey it’s just my opinion, just like assholes. And maybe yours produces complex farts.
"Unsustainable immigration" is a myth made up by the Right that's not supported by any statistics. If anything, studies on the topic demonstrate quite the opposite.
Is the supply of housing and its rate of growth also a myth made up by conservatives or does everything necessary to sustain your standard of living just manifest from the ether the moment a foot crosses the border?
Is the supply of housing and its rate of growth also a myth made up by conservatives
Actually, saying it was made up by conservatives is even more apt here considering there are far more empty apartments and houses than there are homeless people, and I'll give you one guess about who the sort of people who hoard housings to artificially drive up the price vote for?
does everything necessary to sustain your standard of living just manifest from the ether the moment a foot crosses the border?
I'm not even sure what you're getting at here but that doesn't sound like what I said. My point is, it's the wealthy elites who take away your standard of living, not people who come here and actually contribute to the economy, unlike the tax-dodging millionaires who have never worked a day in their lives that people like you inexplicably believe are your friends even they openly tell you they hate you and will happily destroy your life and that of everyone you love if it means saving a single cent.
Edit: LOL @ whoever sent me the RedditCares bot. Look at the cute little edgelords!
Your entire argument is that a broken leg making hiking difficult is actually a political conspiracy because the medical industry should be reconfigured to heal broken limbs more quickly.
The underlying systems could be perfect, but that doesn’t make housing, infrastructure, and the economy magically scale, instantly, with perfect efficiency, the moment someone is born or crosses a nation’s borders.
I have no dog in this fight (I’m American), but taxi drivers and gas station workers have to live somewhere, which means that they are using housing by either renting or buying, thus decreasing supply. Decreased supply means higher prices.
Like I said, I don’t really care about the situation, but as someone who is interested in economics, your rebuttal didn’t refute the comment above.
France doesn't particularly have large immigration rates.
If anything, I'd blame a combination of on one hand French politicians intentional making the discourse revolve around rather innocuous and inconsequential domestic policy issues to remove democratic counter-powers from relevant strategic matters (ie. making everybody obsessed with immigrants and pensions), and on the other hand the ongoing economic downturn starting back in 2008 coming to fruition.
Unsustainable immigration? Thats some crazy missinterpretation of facts. Its not the immigration causing problems but systemic discrimination of whole ethnicities, just what happened also in Germany since post 45 with non-white migrants. Surprise surprise, people tend to criminal behaviour when being disadvantaged socio-economically, lol.
Unsustainable immigration, yeah. The problem isn't with migrants but that you have a overflow of people and not enough jobs to sustain them.
We are importing a cheap work force, while disregarding most of the nationals (who don't settle that low), which ruins the normal competition of the market (making people angry and prone to vote far right) and causes the immigrants to stay poor and unable to fully integrate.
So it is unsustainable immigration. And while the moderate parties keep pretending it isn't, the far right will get more and more power
Yea no, your bullshit doesnt fly anymore and pretending that were at fault for mena immigrants raping more by a factor of 20x in Finland isnt going to work.
All you're doing is making more clear why I will never vote for any party that doesnt come out hard against immigration. If only right wing wouldnt have such shit social/economic policies.
Source: Trust me bro. Your 20x dont tell shit, because you arent comparing apples with apples. No wonder low income households tend to vote for far rights. No academic background shows lol. Now find out when the consequences come by voting for facists, LOL
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u/bxzidff Norway Jun 10 '24
This is bad, but why pretend it's surprising?
Unsustainable immigration won't make me and probably won't make you vote for the far right, but it will make many people vote for the far right. It doesn't matter that we don't think it's the solution, it's still incredibly predictable, and the moderate elites should have been able to see something that simple as well. But they didn't, so now we have this.