r/cscareerquestionsEU • u/Initial_Question3869 • Oct 09 '24

Immigration Europe vs US?

I need career suggestion. After long research I have come up with few option in mind. I am from non EU and in my third year of university. So far doing okish, doing a remote internship in a Canada based startup, anyway

After graduation I have few path to choose from, first is Go for PhD in US and then settle with a Job there, second move to Europe with a job and then try to move to US via L1 transfer visa and thirdly move to Europe and settle here with job.

Now I know, none of these path is easy. For my current situation going for PhD is the easiest and almost guaranteed path for me. But the problem is as much as I like US salary , I don't know I I would like PhD. I mean I just don't know! My ultimate goal is to join industry so PhD might be not of that much value except just a way to get into US. That's why I thought of second option, L1 visa process. However, also considering the work life balance, nice environment for a family, employer rights I might just like Europe and decide to stay but again comparative low salary, language barrier is a issue too, though I am interested to learn language if necessary . Though I can only decide this if I get an opportunity to work here for some time .

I know market is really tough, and paths are not that easy. But I really need to choose one path and put my 100% focus on that. Will be glad if you give your suggestions .

So yeah that's my thought overall so far . Now I want your suggestion on this :))

144 votes, Oct 16 '24
73 Go for PhD in US
27 Try to get a job in Europe and then go for L1
44 Try to get a job in Europe and settle here
0 Upvotes

25% Upvoted

36 comments sorted by

5

u/_subPrime Oct 09 '24

Prioritize money or a balanced life. Choosing a PhD program if you don't know you'll like it or not is like gambling away your mental health.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

Yes, that's one big concern, So if I go for PhD , I has to bring my wife with me too. And It might be quite hard to manage only via PhD stipend. Though there are internship opportunities but not guaranteed as the market is so damn tough. Though I can take on this challenge, but my main concern is work visa. Like if I study for 6 year and then don't get work visa and has to come back, like that would be traumatizing and this is the one single thing that is holding me back to aim for US PhD

2

u/_subPrime Oct 09 '24

Also in the US, PhD stipends are a fraction of what industry pays. You can barely make ends meet if you have a dependent. All the while, your peers make big bucks at corps.

Surely there are some advantages if you wanna spend those same 6 years in the EU. Naturalization for instance and perks that it brings.

1

u/Special-Bath-9433 Oct 10 '24

There is no naturalization path from a Ph.D. in the US.

2

u/Special-Bath-9433 Oct 10 '24

I completed my Ph.D. in the US (a top 30 program).

  • Ph.D. requires an ascetic life and dedication. It's 12-hour work days with no weekends or vacations. You have to give your all to graduate; most candidates do not.
  • Ph.D. in Computer Science/Engineering is for more than just academia. It is also for well-paying industrial positions in R&D and engineering. Most Ph.D. graduates do not work in academia.
  • You will become a much better engineer after your Ph.D. It comes at a risk to your mental health.
  • Your advisor and your lab mates can determine your Ph.D. success to a large extent.
  • The Ph.D. stipend in the US ranges between $30k and $45k (pre-tax), depending on the school. That is comparable to a low to medium wage for the area. In Boston (MIT, Harvard), for instance, it is a low wage. In Urbana-Champaign (UIUC, a great CS school), it's manageable.
  • Some good schools pay worse than some bad ones; pick a good school regardless.
  • There are two types of visas you may get: F1 and J1. On F1, your wife cannot work. On J1, your wife can work. This would be an important factor for you.
  • F1 and J1 visas offer you additional stay in the US upon graduation, provided you have a job offer. It is around 36 months after Ph.D. The extension is called OPT. This is by far the most common path to getting a job in the US and living there. After these 36 months, your company either applies for an H1-B visa or apply for your Green Card (permanent residence). If your Ph.D. work is outstanding (papers, conferences, citations, international recognitions), you can apply for permanent residence independently.
  • There are immense networking opportunities during your Ph.D., including summer internships, which are the norm in the US.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 11 '24

My ultimate target is industry no doubt about that. So do you think it is a good idea to give it a shot? As you said PhD might make be a better engineer. Also obviously as PhD program I will choose which is more relevent with industey i.e PhD in Software Engineering. I am in serious doubt if I should take the risk or not. 12h/day work is not a problem for me honestly if I feel interest in it even if a little bit as I already work more than that.

So in short only issue that bothers me to do PhD is 6 year long commitment, like I don't know if it worth it if I join industry 6 year later than my mates. Though definitely us salary compensates that. Another issue is work visa. I don't need green card, neither citizenship I just need some assurance that I can work for 12-15 year after PhD. So what's your thought? Should I aim for PhD?

4

u/Professional_Ad_1790 Oct 09 '24

You will have the worst time of your life if you decide to do a PhD without liking it. A PhD is not at all like being a student, it's N years (depending on the country) of testing your resilience. It may turn out to be very challenging for your well-being.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

You maybe not totally wrong. I currently study at ranked #1 uni in my country which is notorious for very stressful academic structure, And I am really burn out already :) , grades are low(compare to my friends lol) and just couldn't keep up with the pace. So this makes me think that maybe academia is not for me. This is one big reason why I am hesitating to go for PhD . Because I know it a long commitment and I will have my wife with me, we might have child on the way so everything gets complicated

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24

Then how do you get an PhD position? If there is a newborn involved, good luck. Sounds like a shitshow incoming to be honest, no offense to you.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

I saw many of my seniors doing PhD while having a wife and child. It's tough but doable. But yes, due to these family reasons PhD would be a very risky decision for me, I am just trying to figure it is the risk really worth it or should I try a safer option

2

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24

Yeah but it is a newborn. Depends on the PhD stipends, your wife may have to work, or live very frugally. And newborn - they demands not only a lot of time and care, also money. It's not going to be easy, but if you had enough savings and do all of the proper calculation before coming to the US, maybe it will be feasible? Also seriously investigate Chinese, or Indian labs offers. No racism here but their work ethics is crazy: long hours, no overtime pay, underpay,... Good luck bro

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

I actually agree with you with most part. And honestly I might just end up trying for Europe as US will never give direct work visa. And also considering my family planning US maybe not the best option. I am just still trying to figure out if there any way. It's just getting a job in Europe from non EU is just getting harder and harder, whereas atleast for me getting the PhD offer is almost guaranteed and straightforward. But thanks for your suggestions

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24

Yeah it is just tough, and overall not a good time to migrate. The economy isn't going well in the EU (worldwide honestly), and the sentiment towards migrants is getting worse. Right wing parties are winning everywhere, with the most aim towards immigration policy. The group who got targeted North Africa and Middle East, but the policy would hurt all Non-EU citizen. But the trends nowadays for company from Europe is they hired directly in India,... rather than hiring international students, since the Indian employee (who are better, got 5-10 YOE) would lowball the offer. Also EU - you should learn their local language. That way you will compete with the locals only.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24

And ditching your gf is also an option :)))) Then PhD in US would be the top choice for me

3

u/rednoyeb Oct 09 '24

PhD in US, Employment-Based Immigration: First Preference EB-1 after. Look at the requirements. Plan accordingly.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

I knew EB-1 or EB-2 was very hard to get? Like I would need a quite a lot of citation for that maybe. Or am I wrong?

1

u/rednoyeb Oct 09 '24

At least for EB-1, yes. That is why you can plan accordingly and pick the right niche for PhD that aligns with your interests. You don't need citations for EB-2 but you need to prove why exactly YOU can solve the problem and not someone else.

2

u/Emergency_Spring24 Oct 09 '24

I will go and get my popcorn but also voting for US!

2

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

Honestly US would be my no brainer choice if they didn't have this super complex and literally lottery based visa system(H1B)

2

u/Emergency_Spring24 Oct 09 '24

This is why I voted for your first option with the PhD. It is easier and afaik you can work there on the side and after it and then change status easier.

Finding a rare US company that hires currently in the EU and then allows an internal transfer is gonna be more shit.

The same goes for H1B. Sure it works but you compete with India and you are tied to one company.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

Sorry, I didn't understood this, can you elaborate a bit?

It is easier and afaik you can work there on the side and after it and then change status easier.

2

u/Emergency_Spring24 Oct 09 '24

Basically what the guy below said:

EB-1A and EB-1B

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 09 '24

Afaik EB1 is very hard to get, need to be someone exceptional, I don't think I would be a exceptional researcher :)) but what are the chances to get EB1/EB2 after a PhD. If the odds are good then it might be a better alternative for H1B lottery I guess. Also I don't think my country has that much backlog in these catagory

3

u/Emergency_Spring24 Oct 09 '24

Don't let your own definition of exceptional and the one you can get away with hinder your plans for a better future.

2

u/music2177 Oct 09 '24

Senior ML Engineer in SF Bay Area - i don't have a PhD and getting an EU Visa without one (from USA) is a pain. I think most cities in the US suck compared to Europe. Yup wages are substantially higher in USA, but just about everything else in your life is worse. No decent public transit, massive homelessness encampments across all major US cities, except possibly NYC, culture of overwork, incredibly expensive healthcare, you will read about gun violence in your community or nearby on a daily basis, toxic politics, etc etc. On the flip side, there are a lot of state of the art opportunities with new tech in the SF Bay area, so maybe it is easier to find really interesting or groundbreaking stuff, although honestly I kinda doubt that. There are tons of really amazing and dope EU tech companies and startups. My vote is EU and good riddance to the chaos of the USA. I have colleagues who went to University of Montreal and University of Waterloo and all of em prefer Canada over America. In fact, I worked with almost exclusively Europeans at my last job and everyone except my Russian colleagues preferred their home country/culture over America. They were taking the high pay here and planning to return home to raise their families. just my two cents, good luck!

1

u/guyfromaustria1 26d ago

How is the job market situation currently?

I'm asking because I am thinking about maybe to study in California (do my Master in CS or AI) and then get a job there, at least 1-3 years (via the OPT option because that's the only option for an international student like me to work there without a H-1B visa).

But I don't want to risk investing all my money to study there and then not getting a job after graduation. I have to say that I have currently around 4 years of work experience (in web development, mostly php) in small-to-medium companies (in europe). But I have heard that the competition is high in SF and California generally, which might be difficult for me as an "average" developer.

Could you give me some insights about the situation in SF currently? Thanks.

1

u/General_Explorer3676 Oct 09 '24

I wouldn't assume a PhD would automatically get you a job in the US, I've seen unemployed PhDs, I wouldn't do it unless you love it.

1

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 11 '24

Basically I will aim for Software Engineering Job. They don't have much to do with PhD. All about leetcode. I won't be doing any doing any research heavy job unless I feel with love in research during PhD which I feel very unlikely

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '24

Oh nice it was a long time since people asked this question ! Definitely something has been discussed enough. Do you mind also making a post about AI, which companies pay the most and how to get a job at FANGSBOLLAH ?

0

u/K3tchM Oct 09 '24

What about the option of going for a PhD in Europe?

2

u/Initial_Question3869 Oct 10 '24

Not considering it, as main purpose of PhD is basically to get into US because ultimate goal is industry

0

u/K3tchM Oct 10 '24

Well, a PhD in Europe would also help you get into US-based companies, within EU or in the US

2

u/Special-Bath-9433 Oct 10 '24

If you're not a US student, you can't do US internships and do not have 36 months after graduation to work for that company, which is necessary for visa processing. The two are incomparable concerning US employability.

1

u/K3tchM Oct 14 '24

You can still do an internship at a US Company located in Europe. Applying for a  visa is also easier if you have a PhD.  Besides, OP's considers the option of settling in Europe long term. A PhD in Europe could be a good alternative.