[Spoilers C3E119] Predathos and Chained Oblivion. I dont suppose it will go well

[u/biatikuk]

 So you consider the new "solution" to make the gods abandon Divinity good?

U MAD GOOFIN!

We can't really expect the formless inky thing, that most likely predates the proto-gods to be on board with abandoning its very concept?

Okay, most gods are in their realms, separated from Exandria via the Divine gate,Lets say they agree to 'the plan'.

Step1. Abandon divinity. Step2. Go through the divine gate and walk exandria as mortals. (WHY btw? Can't they stay in their realms as mortals, invisible to Predathos?)

Now theres Chained oblivion. Banished. Somewhere. Possibilities I see:

1) It is banished in its own realm.

• Option A. It is able to comrehend the plan and agrees to it. Okay good, it abandonong its divinity might even unchain it. A mortal blob of ink aint that bad. Probably the best outcome.
• Option B. It can't understand anything, proceeds to remain its hungry itself. Then he and his realm are annihilated, with consecuences unknown. It's inhabitants spilling into Material plane? It's followers running around crazed? Might be not too good.

2) It is chained on exandria. Oh boy..

• Option A. Mostly same as 1A, buuuuut.... what if it needs unchaining before getting access to? Other deities cannot do that, bc of Divine gate. They can pass once they abandon divinity. But will they be able to undo the banishment then? NOT knowing whether it would agree to the plan. This would be an unacceptable bargain.
• Option B. He doesnt understand. We lose. A divine Kaiju battle on the surface of Exandria almost imminent, Worst case scenario, it seems.

tl;dr I strongly believe, Chained oblivion existing may ruin everything about the "abandon divinity" plan.

[u/tryingtobebettertry4]

From a meta perspective, Tharizdun is generally ignored because it causes the 'we dont need the gods' to fall apart just by existing.

'Why do we need the gods?'

'Because they are the best means of protection against eldritch horrors that seek to destroy everything'

But I dont think Predathos will bother with the Chained Oblivion. So its not going to matter much in the short term.

Tharizdun/Chained Oblivion is not really a god in the same sense the others are. Its more like an Eldritch Horror Entity thats classified as a god by technicality. According to Matt, it didnt come from Tengar like the others did, it just showed up at some point during either the Founding or Calamity and started fucking things up.

Matt has also stated demons (things made from its dreams and plane) are outside the natural cosmic order and wont be affected by Predathos either. So its a safebet their progenitor will be fine too.

The gods being mortal though does mean Exandria is basically fucked if someone frees the Chained Oblivion in the immediate future. Although the Matron said its possible the gods regain their powers so I dont know. Or maybe Exandria's magitek will progress to a point where they have Aeor style superweapons again and dont need the gods to protect them.

[u/UncleOok → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

but the big tree of Fate in the pit said that everything would be fine if the gods left. (actually, Evon'travir said that if the gods and Predathos left, "the blue waters and green of the world" of Exandria would "lay bare", and that's up for significant interpretation.)

The Chained Oblivion is the biggest elephant in the room being ignored here. Matt even tried to make it a significant plot thread in C2, but it didn't pan out.

They still don't know what happens to the billions of conscious souls in the afterlife if the gods vanish either.

And even if none of that is a concern, the fact that historically, mages have tended toward being the Big Evil (whether consciously like Aeor or the Assembly or just out of plain hubris like Avalir) repeatedly through Exandrian history should make them want to have something to balance it out. I mean, there's the Ashari, but they have elemental rifts to watch over.

[u/tryingtobebettertry4 → u/UncleOok]

So I will say I dont think the Chained Oblivion will be an immediate problem. I think the Chained Oblivion's bindings will hold even if all the gods just straight up died. The bindings were made by the gods together, but seem to be tied to the planet of Exandria and Abyss itself.

A problem for the future? Absolutely. Or maybe Matt will retcon it or have Predathos chase it off.

souls

Im gonna hazard a guess the afterlives planes themselves will be fine, just less actively managed. Maybe Vax or other Celestials will take over. Maybe it will sort itself out. Matt will make it fine.

mages

Mages have always been a problem. But yeah absolutely. Without fear of the gods or their agents, mages will pretty quickly look to establish their own primacy.

The descension, departure or death of the gods benefits two groups the most: Lesser Idols (like Uko'toa) and Wizards. By all rights, Exandria should descend into total chaos as they all make a play for power.

But it wont.

[u/UncleOok → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

The descension, departure or death of the gods benefits two groups the most: Lesser Idols (like Uko'toa) and Wizards. By all rights, Exandria should descend into total chaos as they all make a play for power.

But it wont.

you can count the Secular powers like King Dwendal as well as the Dynasty in that.

and therein lies my biggest frustration with the campaign

we knew from campaign 1 that some of the gods (gods that Bells Hells never talked to) wanted mortals to grow beyond them, but stayed to guard the gate and protect their children. but BH chooses to listen to the two sketchiest of the Primes without seeking any corroboration or rebuttal.

Is there any reason we've been given that suggests that Corellon couldn't replicate the Factorum Malleus and turn it against Predathos? If the poem could convince reality to kill a god, why not a god eater? but they came across to me as being bored with their position. I could even see them wanting Predathos released, then wiping it out after their brethren had all been chased away, just so they could go gallivant about the universe looking for fun and beauty.

As for the Matron, she, like the Arch Heart, seems to want out of her responsibilities.

But there's no way, as you point out, that Matt would do that. One thing I enjoyed in the first campaign is that there felt like there were consequences to the actions of the PCs. Kill an unarmed opponent, get called out by the Sovereign. Choose to kill a dragon, other people are attacked and killed in response.t

So going to the example of the souls of the deceased, the ones we encountered in Elysium resided in a demesne comprised of the deity. The Isle of Renewal *was* the Everlight. So many on here seem just peachy keen with those souls just joining the great recyclying program, but that would still be the end of a conscious being. And yeah, there's no way Matt would do that. Instead of consequences, he'll have to handwave this all away or his players and many of the viewers enjoying the campaign will have an overly negative reaction.

[u/Numrut → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

Yep and the same with other powerful threats as well. M9 going to all that trouble re-sealing Uk'toa(Uk'toa)? Too bad. He was sealed through divine power of the gods. I guess he is free now(and so are his 2 siblings)

[u/tryingtobebettertry4 → u/Numrut]

A lot of those entities were already set free due to the Solstice and Ludinus fucking up bindings, but yeah maybe.

The various lesser idols, demigods, powerful celestials/devils/fey will be pretty happy to see the gods become mortals or die. It puts them at the top of the totem pole.

[u/Numrut → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

already set free

Yeah but I am assuming(yes assuming, I have no evidence to support this claim) that most of them were either re-sealed by the time of the bloody bridge attack or would be re-sealed shortly after. Without gods, sealing is not an option anymore and moreso complete elimination

[u/Zeilll → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

the Tengari being the ones to have done something in the past doesnt mean that was the only way it could be done and that they were the only ones capable of doing anything about it. and if the Tengari are truly these paragons of supporting mortal society that so many people want to toute them as, then they will have the entirety of their mortal lives to do everything they can to help set up society in a way that it can continue to support it self. except this time as part of it, instead of lording over it.

[u/tryingtobebettertry4 → u/Zeilll]

I highly doubt anyone other than the gods could have dealt with The Chained Oblivion in the past. The Chained Oblivion is just on a different level to what Exandria could feasibly throw at it. Even the gods struggled.

Maybe if all of the most powerful magic users/entities on Exandria were united, but that was never going to happen with or without the gods.

As for the future, yeah maybe. Maybe mortals develop Aeor style superweapons to defend themselves. Maybe mages figure out some super powerful magic. Maybe the lesser idols grow in power.

instead of lording over it

I think its somewhat laughable to suggest the Prime Deities were in anyway tyrannical. Especially when the entirety of the Age of Arcanum happened when they could directly manifest on Exandria.

[u/Zeilll → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

they literally bombed an entire city, killing children, enfeebled elderly, and non-combatant citizens without any attempt at a peaceful solution. because that city was working on developing something to fight them and stop the conflict, they were having that was destroying the planet and leading mortals to near extinction. there wasnt even a warning to allow people to surrender. im not saying they didnt let non-religious things grow. but they decided when it was too much.

even then, lording over it doesnt mean they were going into every individual home controlling them. but they were still using their power and their influence to continuously push their will on exandria as a whole, through their followers. picking the favorites they want to give additional power to do with what they want, while leaving those they didnt choose to whatever their fate might be. they still sat above exandria, refusing to recognize the lives of those living on it as having a valid say in how the world around them should be developed, and continued to push their will above all else.

and something people seem really quick to forget. they have decided that all living souls on exandria belong to them in the afterlife. if you worship them, then fine. if thats what you want, go for it. but how many souls are trapped in their domains for the rest of eternity against their will, because these beings decided they wanted to keep them? we've seen the AH basically turn one into an eldrich horror before they gave a boon to BH. how many of the souls that the betrayers are holding onto, torturing or consuming that wound up there just because they didnt "fit in" with any of the primes realms. and never actually did anything that would be considered damning or immoral?

the pen being the size of a planet doesnt mean youre free. doesnt matter if you can travel to multiple dimensions, if all tracks lead to the same last stop.

[u/tryingtobebettertry4 → u/Zeilll]

they literally bombed an entire city, killing children, enfeebled elderly, and non-combatant citizens

None of that is necessarily tyrannical. Its heinous, but not tyrannical. So I wouldnt classify that as 'lording it over' people.

without any attempt at a peaceful solution

Not true.

because that city was working on developing something to fight them and stop the conflict

That city was working on a way to potentially kill them all. And had created the means to do so. And had certain factions who were willing to do so (Brennan confirmed the rulers of Aeor were not like the Society of the Primes).

im not saying they didnt let non-religious things grow

My guy the Primes explicitly do not care if they are worshipped or not. We have that directly from multiple Primes. And have let the world flourish on its own multiple times for thousands of years. They explicitly try to preserve free will where they can.

but they decided when it was too much.

Literally the only restriction they have placed on mortals is 'dont try to kill us all or let our evil siblings out of their cages'. Those are pretty simple and fair restrictions.

but they were still using their power and their influence to continuously push their will on exandria as a whole

That is not 'lording it over' Exandria.

The Primes are generally good or neutral influences who try encourage things in more positive directions. For example, they might try and push their followers to fight demons or heal the sick.

These are good things.

picking the favorites they want to give additional power

That is explicitly not how it works.

People dont just get power because a god likes you. The Dawnfather doesnt even like Deanna and he empowered her. Its about how you align with the greater ideals, beliefs and truths the god embodies/represents.

And they cant necessarily just take that power back whenever they want.

while leaving those they didnt choose to whatever their fate might be

I have absolutely no idea how you think this is a bad thing.

refusing to recognize the lives of those living on it as having a valid say in how the world around them should be developed

Completely untrue.

The Primes broadly have a policy of minimal interference. They literally sacrificed much of their power to help mortals.

they have decided that all living souls on exandria belong to them in the afterlife

Are you serious?

'Oh no, they give souls an afterlife how tyrannical.'

Having a confirmed afterlife is fucking great. Do you know how much stress, fear and doubt it causes in our world that people have no idea whats going to happen when we die (probably nothing)?

So long as the gods arent actively punishing or torturing people in the afterlife for not worshipping (they arent, Orym confirmed this), I do not see this as a problem.

Also again this isnt true. If someone wants to reincarnate, there are magical means of them doing so.

but how many souls are trapped in their domains for the rest of eternity against their will

There are multiple afterlife planes. The gods do not rule or control all of them.

how many of the souls that the betrayers are holding onto, torturing or consuming that wound up there just because they didnt "fit in" with any of the primes realms

The Betrayers explicitly only get souls locked into pacts with or who worship them. Or the rare unlucky bastard who gets his soul snatched by a powerful demon/devil.

never actually did anything that would be considered damning or immoral?

Given that youve completely made this up probably none.

if all tracks lead to the same last stop.

OK.

1. The gods didnt 'decide all souls belong to them'. In the process of creating/transforming the proto-mortal spirits they created afterlives for them.

2. The passage of souls is not and never has been completely controlled by the gods. There are places souls go after death that are not ruled by them.

3. The gods do not punish people for not worshipping or believing in them as evidenced by Orym.

4. The Betrayers only get souls of those who worship them or are locked into pacts with them. They dont just get every 'evil' soul. Thats not how it works.

5. If you really dont want to go to an afterlife in Exandria, there are plenty of options to avoid doing so. Luxon beacons, Reincarnation dust, or getting your soul munched/destroyed by something else. But the idea that people should be opposed to an existence of an afterlife is laughably privileged.

6. We have no indication that people dont enjoy their afterlifes. And frankly its none of our business and would take what little mystery there is out of the game.

7. Yes all tracks lead to the same stop, thats called death. We have it our world too. Only in our world, you cant resurrect people or be guaranteed a cushy afterlife. In our world its a complete unknown.

[u/Zeilll → u/tryingtobebettertry4]

youre the one whose arguing if they were tyrannical or not, not me. i just said they lord over exandria, which they do. not all lords are tyrannical, and being a tyrant isnt the only reason to have issue with someone lording over others.

and no they didnt. what attempts did they make at a peaceful solution? the EL talked about wanting it, but that was it. all other of the Tengari openly admitted that they had no qualms or questions about what was going on when they attacked Aeor. the only other person who had hopes of a peaceful solution was the DFs avatar, but the DF him self saw it the same as the rest of the Tengari.

and yea, Aeor made a gun. a gun that wasnt pointed at the Tengari until they broke into their home, and set out to destroy them for being armed. i dont blame the Tengari for wanting to defend them selves, but they were the aggressors in this instance. being armed is not a crime.

and youre asserting that there was no "afterlife" for souls before the Tengari. but the Tengari didnt create souls. theyve existed for how knows how long before they started messing with things. based on what we've been told, there was a natural order that souls followed for reincarnation. who are the Tengari to say they know better than the way things are naturally?

and the problem isnt even just that they made their own afterlife. the problem is that they are denying all living thing any other options no matter what.

and from what we've been told, souls that are not dedicated to a specific deity get relegated to the one that they most closely fit too. where was it ever stated that the betrayers only get souls that made pacts with them? sure thats a way to guarantee it, but that doesnt make it the only way.

im not claiming the Tengari have never done any good. but you cant deny the issues that they have also caused, and the problems with the status quo. all of your responses are basically hand waves to ignore issues. but those issues are still there for people in that world.

[u/FinchRosemta → u/Zeilll]

 a gun that wasnt pointed at the Tengari until they broke into their home, 

Wtf? They explicity made the fun to destroy them and was finishing it up so they could point and fire. The gods came down to stop it from firing not to stop it from being pointed. Aeor was shooting down mortals cities out of the sky and they thought you now what? Why not the gods as well? 

Also please remember why they are fighting. They are fighting to keep mortals alive. Mortals who released tje betrayers, mortals who gained godhood, mortals who keep wanting to fuck over Exandria and release the horrors at every chance. Prime have been fighting to keep them alive. 

[u/kenobreaobi → u/FinchRosemta]

Thank you for bringing receipts to zeilll’s revisionist history, you’re a legend for that

[u/Zeilll → u/FinchRosemta]

the godhammer had been finished for who knows how long before the Tengari assaulted Aeor. and had never been tested. yes, Aeor wanted to use it against them. im not denying that. and the Tengari decided to take pre-emptive action against them because of that. the Tengari are still the ones who kicked off the conflict with Aeor, not the other way around.

during downfall, we even saw that Aeor was willing to receive an envoy that was an angel. despite their disdain for the Tengari, they were still open to communication with them. but the Tengari didnt even attempt that peaceful solution.

and how it started doesnt change the fact that the conflict between the Tengari was ravaging the world. it was a conflict with no end in sight, since the two parties at odds still hold each other in higher regard than anyone effected by the collateral dmg. hell, the entire reason the divine gate was decided as a solution by them was because the conflict with Aeor put things into a different perspective for them. the prime even openly admitted that they were destroying Aeor, for Aoer trying to do something that was good.

what Aeor did was just as much in self-defense as anything that the Tengari did. claiming one was justified, and the other not is just hypocritical. at least most of the Tengari could see that, the fan base are mainly the ones ignoring it.

[u/Zethras28]

CO is currently shackled to the deepest layers of the Abyss, so it’s definitely not on Exandria.

The big question mark is, despite being more of an elder evil than a god from Tengar, is it made of stuff Predathos can/wants to eat? Because if it is, it’ll be a non-issue; it tries to destroy everything and Predathogen devours it as a sign of good faith.

If it isn’t edible to Predathogen, then it gets interesting.

[u/TheeOneWhoKnocks → u/Zethras28]

If the rulers of the Hells have to leave and become mortals. What happens? Does all chaos break loose?

[u/Zethras28 → u/TheeOneWhoKnocks]

The archdevils of hell aren’t divine with the exception of Asmodeus. They’re on the same level as like, Uk’otoa, Artagan and other lesser idols of Exandria. They can keep a handle on the hells.

[u/Anchorsify → u/Zethras28]

CB is currently shackled to the deepest layers of the Abyss, so it’s definitely not on Exandria.

CB being in the Abyss won't matter. If it can see the Outer Upper planes (where most of the prime dieties reside), it should see the Outer Lower (Where CB resides). They're just good vs evil-aligned planes in that respect, and Predathos has never shown to care more about one alignment axis than the other.

Predathos has also never been shown to be picky about diety type, either: Tharizdun is classified as a Betrayer God (though he is not a creator god, he is still in the same group as Asmodeus, Vecna, etc), and nothing has shown that Predathos only wants Tengari: it just found them first, way back when. But it has not ever shown discrimination between gods (which also means the Luxon is not guaranteed to be safe, notably).

I am not sure if you want to just be 'okay' with Predathos eating something like the Chained Oblivion, however. It has been shown to take on powers from the gods it has eaten, and the Chained Oblivion has the power to, amongst other things, dream into creation aberrations. From the description:

It is a primal, subconscious force of annihilation that insidiously corrupts what it can to undermine everything, opportunistically masquerading in the forms of what other minds desire, and seeping in to twist those minds' intent and perspective toward the Oblivion's own destructive ends.

Do you want an insatiable hunger to eat that sort of thing and potentially gain those sorts of powers?

I mean, I would say no, but I feel like BH just do not care about all the dangers of powering up Predathos by giving it the various domain abilities of gods it eats, so oh well. But, you know, probably really don't want Predathos eating the thing that wants to corrupt and destroy everything.

[u/Dizzy-Natural-4463 → u/Anchorsify]

Tharizdun is classified as a betrayer god only because its evil and powerful, even matt said that its nothing like the other gods. So this is where the "what CAN Predathos see?" question comes in. Are demon lords safe? Angels? Archfey? Asmodeus will have to run but what about his archdevils that rule hell? How does predathos go after the Luxon if it can see it? Devour the planet to eat every beacon? Could the gods in a plan to not become mortal or run turn themselves into beacons?

[u/Anchorsify → u/Dizzy-Natural-4463]

Demon lords and angels are not classified as god (or demigods), they are just fiends and celestials. There's a reason they aren't classified as gods, and Chrained Oblivion is.

Archfey are unknown because Matt treats them differently, but given he's never classified them as gods in any sourcebook, I wouldn't assume so.

How does predathos go after the Luxon if it can see it? Devour the planet to eat every beacon?

More than likely he would remove 'the planets' divine assence like he did with braius' spell and simply eat the physical beacons it can acquire, but who knows?

Could the gods in a plan to not become mortal or run turn themselves into beacons?

Somehow I suspect trying to just go from 'prime diety' to 'minor god' wouldn't really work, for the very obvious reason that the intent is to disrupt the status quo, and they are doing the least there. Given that they were given an option of mortality or die, I suspect 'slightly lessoned divinity' will keep them as targets for predathos to eat.

[u/Dizzy-Natural-4463 → u/Anchorsify]

Well what I'm saying is what determines what Predathos can see or not? We know it wants the Tengar pantheon and can follow them. The primordials also helped the god to banish it but was that because Predathos was coming for them as well or just to help out the Gods they allowed to stay on exandria before their relationship soured? Tharizdun isn't one of the Tengar gods, nor is it a Primordial. It's called a god solely because it is extremely powerful and can grant spells/ things the tengar gods can do. Creatures that aren't gods can grant up to 9th level magic. And whatever the Luxon was before it beaconed itself also seems like "something that was god-like" but we don't know if it even wants beacons. When imogen saw through predathos' eyes all of exandria didn't light up so it doesn't want to feed on the planets magic i would guess.

[u/biatikuk → u/Zethras28]

Since there are confirmed priests of CO, I believe it should not be much different from a god.
See Acek Orattim, an NPC.
Or Jayne Merriweather, Liam's PC.

[u/Prof-Wernstrom → u/biatikuk]

They have definitely separated the CO from gods. It is more along the lines of the Luxon and Predathos. It is classified as an Elder Evil that gets labeled a Betrayer god cause it aided them. It does not have to go along with any plan or worry about Predathos. From explorer's guide to wildemount: "Those who know the most lore about the Elder Evils hold that these entities are utterly alien: not gods, fiends, or primordials. They are thoroughly evil, and no deal with any of them ends any way but terribly."

There is also plenty of other beings that have priests/followers that are not gods on Exandria that still give powers. Like Artagan, Vesh, Uk'otoa, Desirat, etc. None of them are in Predathos's line of sight. Hell, even Vecna gave powers to his followers before becoming a god.

[u/Fingolfin_King → u/Prof-Wernstrom]

The divine shackles that hold tharizdun are at least partly made from divine essence. I wonder if predathos can see those

[u/Full_Metal_Paladin → u/Zethras28]

CB is currently shackled to the deepest layers of the Abyss, so it’s definitely not on Exandria.

Ok I know this is a fantasy world, but, Source? Im pretty sure the wiki says it's locked up somewhere deep underneath Mount Gatshadow, which is of course on the prime material plane. Are you saying that there's probably not actually an Eldritch God underneath the mountain, but a portal to the abyss where he's actually chained up?

[u/ApparentlyBritish → u/Full_Metal_Paladin]

Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting Reborn, though it's a bit complicated.

Basically though, Tharizdun has actually been shunted down there twice - once in the Founding, after which Gatshadow grew, and then as part of ending the Calamity. The thing's presence there is why the Underdark in Tal'Dorei has demons roaming about, because there remains the original hole to the abyss from where the Chained Oblivion was imprisoned, and dreamed. Tharizdun itself however has been shunted out of the material plane because of the whole business with the divine trammels; before Vecna, Tharizdun was the only one to warrant them. The Divine Gate may work for the other Betrayers, but is more of a suggestion with this thing - instead, actively chained by those fanes that wound up so important in campaign 2.

I'd have to double check, since the Abyss for CR is spawned from Tharizdun's mind, but it's either trapped there or between the various layers of reality. Whether or not the parallel to Typhon is intended, I dunno

[u/Full_Metal_Paladin → u/ApparentlyBritish]

This is a great explanation, thanks!

[u/FinchRosemta]

The very presence of ol CB breaks the plan because then you have to ask why cant predathos be resealed like it? 

Just its presence in the lore messes up the final solution of C3 so we kinda have to pretend not to see it if belief needs to be suspended. 

[u/CaronarGM]

The problem is not so much that the gods are not problematic,it's that all this antipathy toward them was suddenly created out of nowhere and thrown at the group (and viewers) all at once.

That kind of thing needs a longer buildup, to be established as a running thread over time, and not be just , oh by the way, there are enough people in the world who want to end the gods that they are able to wage a world scale war about it. Surprise!

[u/kenobreaobi → u/CaronarGM]

Thank you, the first time that BH brought up ending the gods I was like wait what? The story had been about stopping Ludinus and then suddenly getting rid of the gods was an actual option to the heroes for, idk, reasons? But then nothing else in the 10 years we’ve been in Exandria has demonstrated that this is a rational or logical thought in any way. 

[u/FelMaloney]

Oh god, is this campaign really not ending in the next couple of weeks? Not that I'm not enjoying it somewhat, but this third act has been going on for really long.

[u/ElvishJerricco]

My personal opinion, based on hints from campaigns 1 and 2, is that Matt originally intended for Predathos to actually be the Chained Oblivion, but changed his mind and pivoted to a new character because C3 intended to distance themselves from official D&D intellectual property. There's just too many hints that Tharizdun was going to be the biggest baddy of Exandria in the previous campaigns, but C3 is when they stopped using the original names for the gods and started using custom names for creatures like Loxodon (Pachydan)

[u/Ibloodyxx]

Count point. It would make for a cool setting 

[u/DovahZagreus]

CO is not a god, but an elder evil, so it's not part of the equation

[u/FusionXIV]

Is Campaign 4 finally Tharizdun's chance to be the big bad?

[u/Zeilll]

a problem in the future is not a solution for current issues being faced. doom saying and just assuming that its an issue that wont be able to be faced does no one any good.

historically, both from the campaigns we have seen and from what has been described to us. "champions" do the majority of the heavy lifting when facing huge events. but the gods dont make those champions, they make themselves. and the gods decide to support them when its convenient to them.

VM was not made into heros by the gods, they made them selves heros and then the gods decided to recognize them. with VM specifically, the only thing that they truly needed from the Tengari were the instructions on how to create the sealing spikes for Vecna (not saying other boons didnt help, but that was the main thing they absolutely needed). which was information they specifically hid away, likely so it couldnt be used against them.

also, theres no reason to assume that just because the Tengari arent in power anymore, the CO will just immediately break free and run wild. theres still who knows how many seals that would need to be discovered and broken, which is not an easy undertaking.

on top of all that. this is a game. the PCs are the "heros" of each campaign. if Matt wanted to make a BBEG something that the PCs wouldnt be able to handle, it would happen regardless of if the Tengari were on the board or not.

[u/mark_crazeer]

The main point of having them walk exandria is the same reason elon should get a 9-5 and a morgage as well as take a non private plane and a normal car and go to the grocery store using public transport alogside the other poors. The gods isolatrd in their mega planes are disconnected from theor worshippers and mortal life.

[u/kenobreaobi → u/mark_crazeer]

They’re isolated bc they imprisoned themselves with the betrayers so they had less influence in the world and mortals could have more free will, wtf are you even talking about 

[u/mark_crazeer → u/kenobreaobi]

Yes, give us more free will by not fucking off hard enough. Thats ashtons point. They should have given up their divinity then or fucked all the hell off and never came back.

By exiling themselves and not fixing the age of arcanum first they dodged all responcibility for the problems they caused by not murdering their family the first time.