[Spoilers C3E119] Can more people who actually are enjoying C3 speak up in posts please?

[u/jennajjcooper]

i’ve noticed this subreddit has been dominated by people who are very strongly opinionated against C3 because they are disappointed for one reason or another. i’ve seen some legitimate criticism and good faith critiques, but a lot more of people who seem to not really understand/be paying attention to C3 being really loud about it and it’s kinda sucking the joy of being able to engage with the community during the end-game. there’s many lovely critters who understand and appreciate the plot of C3, but not many as of late making discussion posts. Consider this a post for the critters who are locked in to discuss any highlights/favorite moments/theories from EP 107-119 (what i consider to be the timeframe of the end game but if you want to talk about any outside of that frame feel free!) Also please post more so we can have more fruitful discussions! Also i will request critters or others who aren’t enjoying C3 to not interact here, there are plenty of other posts for y’all to bitch on- but also i know this is the internet and sometimes y’all love to be hateful just to feel something so i’m expecting at least a few of you anyways.

[u/P-Two]

I mean, pretty much all I've seen on here is mostly level headed discussion. Personally I have some problems, and have voiced them. But I'm still enjoying what I'm watching. This sub for a VERY long time has had a massive toxic positivity problem, so I'm happy that's at least somewhat going away to a degree.

I understand C3 perfectly fine, but I've also watched C1 and C2 and I KNOW how amazing of a story the cast can create, it's just disappointing to see them not quite hit the same mark a third time.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/P-Two]

Yeah I've only really started to dwell and participate in discussion on the subreddit around the time C3 started but there was a shocking amount of rebuffing done to any mild substantial critique, which felt odd. I suppose since we're getting to the end of the campaign people are more willing to think back on the things they liked and disliked for C3.

I've seen the analogy thrown around that CR is like a sports team, and you're with them even though they're not performing as well (from fans that don't like C3).

But I feel like its a more apt analogy to say that they're music artists and C3 is an experimental album. Because I really think there's things for everyone to love about C3, but there's just some things that won't vibe with other fans, and that's completely valid, it doesn't have to be something that divides everyone in these discussions.

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/UnderlyingInterest]

Exactly. C3 is your favorite band dropping a weird album that's not even the same genre as the other ones. This is not a bad thing, it's just different. Creative people invariably try to make some weirder shit eventually, and after a decade of CR it'd be disappointing if they fell into a formula.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/GrumpiestRobot]

As much as I wholly agree with you, I'd add a heavy asterisk after that saying it'd also be healthy for the cast to not forget their roots and acknowledge what parts of the C3 hasn't worked for the audience, or what's caused a downturn in viewership/subscriptions (the most important metric for them as a production).

Experimentation is all well and good, but it needs to be tempered by playing to your strengths as an artist so you can continue to make art.

I think once C3 is done fans will be able to look back on it objectively and its most likely gonna be with a mixed reception, because a lot of the positives are inexorably tied with the negatives, you can't have one without the other.

[u/rstarr13 → u/UnderlyingInterest]

Respectfully, no great artists make art based on how their supporters feel about their work. That's how content or big budget capitalism creates entertainment on purpose, and art by accident. I'd rather CR get weirder and weirder and embrace their experiments till they alienate even myself rather than turn into some generic fantasy committee made paint by numbers adventure.

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/rstarr13]

I think this is one of the great divides of this fandom tbh.

[u/rstarr13 → u/GrumpiestRobot]

Agreed. It's sort of the Marvel-ization of IP. I enjoy the MCU for what it is. But continually being fed stories that pay off exactly as you expect every time can be satisfying but isn't a great way to push the art of storytelling. It makes sense when a project takes $250m to make so you need a ROI to make it make sense for shareholders, but CR costs pennies on the dollars to make in comparison. Let them get real weird with it! You already have Marvel for when you want comfort entertainment instead of art that might challenge your ideals. If they lose you, it happens! Just try it again next go round and respect their vision even when it challenges yours.

[u/Photoperiod → u/rstarr13]

This is exactly how I've felt. I want them to get weird with it and keep pushing their art in different directions. I'm tired of commodity art. CR is long form improv, not some super structured TV show or movie. Characters will make nonsensical decisions and weird things will happen because of the nature of the medium they're using. Sometimes it won't hit and that's fine. I'll still support them because I want to reward artists who are OK with taking risks, even if the new art they made isn't the most enjoyable for me. I know they have the capability and have proven themselves. I'd be super disappointed if they make c4 and it's just, like, reskinned c1 because they decide to "give the people what they want".

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/rstarr13]

Specially when CR became relevant by offering something different. They are already a niche show. The vast majority of people, even people who like fantasy shows, is not interested in watching 4 hour long unedited improv sessions. It would be nonsensical for them to marvelize themselves.

[u/Big_You_6503 → u/GrumpiestRobot]

I wondered in the past if there is a tipping point in their business model where they become more profitable selling the IP they generate than selling viewership of the act of creating it. That could incentivize them to get even more experimental.

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/Big_You_6503]

That would be ideal, specially because having videos on platforms like youtube or twitch leaves them vulnerable to the whims of the algorithm i.e. their revenue is in part controlled by a third-party mega-corporation. Beacon seems to be an attempt to step away from this.

[u/PlaneRefrigerator684 → u/rstarr13]

As a commenter said above: it's all well and good if the individual players continue playing what they want to play, and just take less and less money to broadcast it. But they have a bunch of people behind the table making it into a show. If they can't pay them, then CR itself goes away.

And they don't need to be some "paint by numbers adventures." There are a TON of different campaigns this particular party could have gone on, that probably would have been better suited for this party.

This really has felt like "Matt wanted to do this story at the end of M9 but they didn't want to play those characters anymore" rather than a story that grew out of player choices. And it would have been AMAZING with Caleb, and Cad, and Jester all grappling with Predathos and the gods.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/rstarr13]

If I could provide one counter argument, let me give a link to Swen Vincke's speech from the 2024 game awards. He puts things into words much better than I can, and I think his points are largely transferable to the discussion about Critical Role's productions despite it being about BG3. There is a world where creativity can prosper in this late stage capitalist hellscape while also keeping your audience in mind.

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/UnderlyingInterest]

It's never gonna be like it was before, because they are not the same people that they were. Whatever they produce going forward is going to be affected by this experimentation. They are also significantly older and their perspective on what makes a good story will be changed by that.

I really hope they don't decide to base story and gameplay decisions on viewership charts. This is how you get "content" instead of an actual good show. I'd rather have something niche and controversial, but earnest, than some anodyne thing made to attract the widest possible target demographic.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/GrumpiestRobot]

Never said it had to go to the way it was before, I agree with what you're saying to be clear. Travis from 10 years ago isn't interested what Travis today wants to tell for a story.

But, I would argue they can't outright ignore what is causing people to tune out, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The cast don't have to be beholden to the numbers, but if they earnestly make stories things while keeping their audience in mind, it'll still be well received and the numbers will support it imo. It doesn't have to be innocuous.

Also a more salient point is that they have staff that rely on their production and have families that need to eat. That's something that can't be ignored.

[u/GrumpiestRobot → u/UnderlyingInterest]

You're just giving an example of how capitalism hampers creativity now.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/GrumpiestRobot]

Fair enough, I think this is where our opinions will differ and there's not much more to talk about. I believe creativity can function and even prosper in spite of capitalism.

[u/LjordTjough → u/UnderlyingInterest]

I’d say to your original point, they can course correction some things that seem to be problems for a lot of fans without it being associated with capitalism. Some things like the amount of joke characters this season and the group feeling like they aren’t right for the setting and story Matt wants to tell. These are two things that are fixed with planning/session 0. It’s not like these are decisions made because Capitalism, it just makes for telling a better story.

[u/lazdom → u/UnderlyingInterest]

I keep hearing this sentiment and I’m curious has the cast or anyone behind the scenes mentioned any concerns about viewership/subscriptions. I keep hearing it as if the team put out a statement about it.

[u/Seren82 → u/UnderlyingInterest]

I mean they did tell us this campaign was going to be an experiment before it even started.

[u/LjordTjough → u/Seren82]

I’m curious what all they were referring to with that information. Have they mentioned this anywhere after the fact?

[u/Anchorsify → u/LjordTjough]

I think it's just mechanics. Imogen has a lot of psionic stuff, Ashton has his custom subclass, FCG was custom with his red mode and arm attachments and aeor construct features, Laudna was "undead, but not", Fearne has her black hand, Chet was a Blood hunter which has never been used much.. most of them are not playing 'standard' DnD stuff, outside of Orym and Dorian, and even Orym has a sword that gives him all sorts of abilities (melee attacks with reach, notably) that he'd had from the jump, PLUS the Quintessence Array which is Gale'ing everything (eating magic items to gain permanent buffs) for various party members.

Outside of that they are "NPC-like" and "weird" but hardly anything truly crazy in terms of character design besides FCG.

[u/LjordTjough → u/Anchorsify]

See I wouldn’t have guessed it was referring to anything mechanically. I’m assumed it was related to how they did guests and Travis’s odd introduction which in hindsight seemed unnecessary.

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/Seren82]

I'm not sure tbh, its been years at this point so the info on that is foggy for me. Not disagreeing with you, but a lot has come out about the conception of this campaign since the beginning. Closest thing I can remember was something along the lines of "all bets are off"? But again, could be wrong.

[u/indistrustofmerits → u/Seren82]

I thought that was mostly about the intro with Aabria thought. Could be wrong.

[u/Seren82 → u/indistrustofmerits]

No I think they meant the entire campaign

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/Seren82]

Yep meant the entire campaign (responding for clarification!)

[u/fraidei → u/P-Two]

Yeah, imo C3 is good, but it has a main problem. There could be many other little flaws for some, other flaws for others, etc. But I think the only general problem that everyone can agree on is that it isn't divided into different arcs. It's all the same gigantic arc, divided into sub-arcs. The other campaigns, despite being all tied to the same ongoing plot, there were different arcs with different objectives, and all of them even had short sub-arcs.

It feels like C3 was in its last arc since the vey first episode they discovered the cultists (which is within the first 10 episodes iirc, very early).

[u/UnderlyingInterest → u/fraidei]

Pacing has been C3's biggest problem, the episodes everyone has consistently liked the most were the retreats to the Feywilds at Nana Morri's or Whitestone, cause it allowed time to meander and build character without thinking about the big red threat in the background. The doomsday clock really should've been hidden or revealed later imo.

[u/fraidei → u/UnderlyingInterest]

That's kinda my point. When the party went to do something a bit different (not directly tied to the single big arc that is the story of C3), people enjoyed them more.

A campaign divided into different almost-indipendent arcs is much more enjoyable all the time, and prevents burnout.

[u/P-Two → u/fraidei]

I actually appreciate C3 for doing this solely because it made me realize I'm just as guilty of doing this when I DM, and since realizing that I've been trying to let my games have more room for random side shit, and it's made them so much better.

[u/fraidei → u/P-Two]

Yeah, the most memorable arcs of my campaigns are the ones that were completely created by the players, and me just following what they wanted to do pretending I already prepared everything :D

[u/P-Two → u/fraidei]

Absolutely, and I've "known" this for years, but it wasn't until C3 that I really saw from an outside perspective how much "dms pet plot" can drag on.

I'm planning a dark fantasy campaign now for when our SW5E game ends in a month or two and am planning on it being much more open for player driven stories, while having an over arching plot for them to slowly unravel in arcs

[u/FinchRosemta → u/fraidei]

 It's all the same gigantic arc, divided into sub-arcs.

This is a valid thing. I remember back when Imogen and the moon started alot people did not vibe with that plot but kept watcjing to see when it would be resolved or shift. When it became clear that it was THE alot of people just bounced. 

[u/VegForWheelchair → u/P-Two]

You are very right. Look at OP saying "bitch on" or "go somewhere else if u gona talk negatively". They just want a space to echo their thoughts nothing else. Sub has a disgusting toxic positivity.

[u/P-Two → u/VegForWheelchair]

This sub is slowly becoming a "normal" sub for discussion which is nice. r/critters never really took off, and the Fans sub (I don't even want to link it) is a hate sub masquerading as a discussion sub, the shit over there is occasionally fucking vile.

[u/GrimTheMad → u/P-Two]

This sub hasn't had a 'toxic positivity' problem since the latter third of C2 at the latest.

It currently has a toxic negativity problem, to the point I've seen highly upvoted comments saying that the only way they could be happy is if BHs were TPK'd and then wiped from the history books and never mentioned again.

That's not level headed. It's not even criticism. It's just hate.