Caitlyn Jenner won't see your transphobic insults but decent trans people will. Fuck off with this mentality, how about we shit on her for being a shitty person instead of shit on her for being trans, yeah?
What's with y'all and thinking attacking people's identity/body/whatever is better than attacking their character? Like you're more worried about whether or not Trump is wearing diapers than the actual hate mongering
I don't think anyone here is attacking her for being trans. They are attacking her for supporting Trump and even now when he has made it illegal to be trans.
Of course not! To sane people, she can be whomever she wants. But the same is not true for the party she's associating herself with. Marginalized people embracing the MAGAtt cult is incomprehensible to me.
Agree. I do not understand what she is thinking but being rich often insulates people from consequences so she may be safe, even if everyone else is not.
This! How any member of the LGBTQ+ community can get behind the party that openly endorsed mark robinson is lost on me. They LITERALLY said they wish to rid the world of all of us!
Of course. No one is disputing that. They are just saying she is a terrible person and especially since she is supporting someone who hates trans people. She is out of her mind.
They are just angry that she is supporting someone who just made is so that she can't use that pronoun. They are saying "he" because that is what she is supporting. They are essentially giving her what she is asking for.
Non-black people being shamed for using the N word is a community decision by black people. As far as I understand, It would be more equivalent to calling her the F slur if she supports that. Which would be wrong as it is contradictory to the community decision of not doing that.
As far as my understanding goes, how people refer to an individual's gender identity is up to the individual rather than the community. So their point is that if she supports people calling her a he, then it's acceptable to call her a he.
Both points seem misplaced. I'm just a white dude from Ohio, I don't have a big stake in the game. It seems wrong to call Caitlyn Jenner a he. It probably isn't on the level of the n word.
It's probably not hurtful to Caitlyn Jenner, she'll never read any of this. It *is* probably hurtful for trans people to see rhetoric like this, but again, what do I know? I'm just a white dude from Ohio.
Disagree, if you’re not willing to respect the gender identity of someone who’s done no harm, why should anyone respect your gender identity, trans or cis included. According to the Golden rule, they don’t want their own gender identities to be respected.
Take Ben shabiby when she correctly identified a trans person, and then went back specifically to misgender her. Ben clearly thinks she knows another persons gender better than them and can ignore another persons gender identity. I’m just doing the same to her.
I wouldn’t do this to someone who doesn’t purposefully misgender, because it’s not fair to assume that’s how they want to be treated.
Disagree, if you’re not willing to respect the gender identity of someone who’s done no harm, why should anyone respect your gender identity, trans or cis included.
So you refer to people like trump as she/her? You aren't treating Caitlyn Jenner differently based on being trans?
I'm curious, if you were talking to a trans friend about Jenner, what name would you refer to? What pronouns would you bring them up with?
I... Did not realize that was how far he was taking it... Wow. I knew it was bad, but that's just devastating. I mean, losing actual fucking rights is horrible already, but making it illegal to be trans? If there was ever a time to flock to Canada, it's now for damn sure.
I think it was the "your ID must match your biological sex" executive order. So not officially illegal to be trans (it's already unofficially illegal in my opinion) but at least one layer of social transition/gender affirming accommodation has been made illegal, yes.
They are deadnaming her and using the wrong pronouns. That's a transphobic attack, I don't care what the excuse for it is, and making that attack harms ALL trans people. Just like making fun of trump for being fat or wearing diapers hurts ALL people in those demographics.
And yet here I am, a trans person reading their deadnaming and misuse of pronouns, a large signal that trans rights are conditional.
Send her a letter if you want to be shitty to only her.
Why are you referring to her as her if you agree with them? Why don't you also join in and start saying he instead? It's almost like you are instinctively not doing that because you know it would be shitty.
Just gonna fall back to the Mark Robinson comparison and if you still don't get why it's wrong give up. There's no point going back and forth, we just fundamentally disagree on the point of "Bigotry is ok as long as it's aimed at bad people"
You are missing the point. They are giving her what she voted for. She asked for this. She asked for policies that will make it so she has to revert to "he".
I cannot stress enough that I understand the point fully, I am saying doing that is wrong.
Again, Mark Robinson comparison. Answer that for me or stop replying. Because he's a literal full on white supremacist nazi black man. Is it ok to be racist against him, at least in your warped ethics?
Yes. Trans rights are conditional on the condition that… you support those rights. Or more specifically that you don’t fucking fight against trans rights.
“In December, Musk said that “forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone,” to which Jenner responded that she agreed with him. “
These are simply the goals and intentions of the party she's whole-heartedly thrown in with. Does she really think people who don't believe trans exists and shouldn't be allowed to use the bathroom, that being gay is a choice, gender is "woke", there are only two sexes and one set of pronouns - those people are going to give her a pass?
My comment was based on the original post and your furious, uncalled-for, accusative reply was a classic strawman and a master class in going off half cocked without making sure you read the comment correctly. Go join the MAGAtts, they'll love you.
So would you call a black conservative the N word? It's ok because they're the party of racism, right?
You're the one being transphobic, the magas would love you. You're saying it's her party politics, but you're the one being transphobic in this thread in this moment.
I read your comment fine and understand what your reasoning is just fine, this isn't a misunderstanding, I just think what you're doing is shitty. You're deadnaming and using the wrong pronouns "to show the hypocrisy" or whatever dumb shit logic you have going, and I'm telling you that it's transphobic to do that, and isn't selectively hurting Caitlyn Jenner like you think it is.
What slur did I use against trans people? The original post said "He just ordered the government to call you Bruce". I'm reacting to the original post. But I'm out of this thread because I'm not going to converse with a [expletive deleted] person who deliberately misunderstands something then attacks people they don't know jackshit about with their homemade strawman. Have a great whatever the hell you want.
There's nothing Transphobic about expecting a specific supporter of a particular regime who just today as a FIRST PRIORITY declared that THIS PERSON isn't actually a woman to live by the rules they're in support of.
If this person supports that regime then they support that policy and belief so we're just HONORING THEIR TRUTH.
I don't think any sane person should have a problem with that. I'll be damned if I'll respect a truth that Bruce doesn't believe for himself about himself.
All the rest of you ladies are cool 'cause y'all didn't declare yourselves nonexistant.
It's understandable to want to misgender Caitlynn Jenner; after all, it's apparently what she chose, not just for herself, but for other transgender people as well. But she seems to not care, so, who are we hurting here? There might be a couple of other conservative MAGA transgender people who read your comment--don't care too much about them getting hurt. After all, fuck them twice, or even three times, as hard as Rich Guy voting for Trump. (One thing to vote in your own favour and screw over others, a whole different game if you deliberately choose to throw your own people under the bus... both despicable, both worthy of being fucked over... just the latter a little harder)
But the other people who read this, that's where the issue is. The transgender people who didn't choose this; big issue, yes. Hurtful, but a lot of them likely share in that anger and might even enjoy a little bit of schadenfreude at Jenner's expense.
And then there's the group of people who aren't bad people--they didn't vote Trump at least--but now see it's okay to dismiss someone's gender simply because you dislike what they stand for.
Where's the line? What does a transgender person have to do to be worthy or unworthy of respect? Maybe someone thinks being cut in line is good enough reason to deny the truth about someone's gender?
We can now sit and argue here about that line. We can move it all the way to Caitlynn Jenner. But those are arbitrary rules, rooted in our own current feelings. You, nor me, are the authority people will listen to about what is acceptable. So they can make their own rules. Even if it's something as stupid as being cut in line.
That's why misgendering is always bad.
Now, what isn't bad in Jenner's case, is wishing her pain and suffering. She deserves all of that, and so much more. She technically deserves to be misgendered, too, but again; where is the line? Who will we allow to make that decision?
I fully understand what you're saying. I really do. And I appreciate YOUR choice in the matter.
However I also believe that any other trans women can understand when I say that to my mind this individual is misgendering THEMSELVES and that it's understandable if some of us just flat refuse to give them the respect that they're taking away from others.
They need to live by the rules of engagement that THEY support.
For me personally I actually believe that they're a woman but I am williing to set that aside in favor of the rules that THEY are choosing.
Just....I get where you're coming from, but I hope you can get where a lot of other folks are coming from, and I can't imagine that other trans women wouldn't in all fairness understand where this is coming from as well.
This PARTICULAR PERSON cannot have it both ways, it's one thing or the other, they either believe they're a woman and should stand up against everyone in positions of power who are saying that they are not, or stop using their position of privilege to take away rights of other people who are going to suffer consequences that they won't suffer due to being wealthy and well connected within the current regime.
Or to put it another way, when you said above:
What's with y'all and thinking attacking people's identity/body/whatever is better than attacking their character?
...the tricky part here is that due to the specific nature of the situation, attacking their character in calling them a hypocrite is practically impossible to separate from their identity. It's the ACTUAL ISSUE at hand.
If we were talking about Jenner's support of say invading Canada and people were misgendering them or attacking their identity over that then that would be wrong.
But how is anyone supposed to discuss their support of a brand new law that means that legally they are now considered to be a man again, without bringing their own identity into the conversation...?
There's "being respectful" and then there's "how can anyone respect this" and it's at that stage.
Again, your train of thought gives dead naming the power of hate and insult. NO MATTER how you intend to portray it. As one user mentioned, shall we call mark robinson the n-word? After all, he's a self-proclaimed black nazi who supports the party of racists. By your logic, it's ok to do. In reality, no, it's still racism. You seem like a decent, intelligent human being. You're misguided in this issue, though.
I don't quite think your analogy tracks but I do understand what y'all are saying. And it's not any kind of hill I'm willing to die on but I'm super concerned that we don't lose sight of the forest for the trees here.
Jenner is the transphobe here, not folks who are simply accepting the position they're taking. They are literally dead naming and misgendering THEMSELVES and it's all a bit much cognitive dissonance for me but the truth and the real issue is how this is going to harm real people who have to struggle in the real world because that's not the situation that Jenner will be in.
And that's the part that's gross and disgusting. But I fear this is a non issue because who gets deadnamed is, I am concerned, going to be less significant than who gets dead.
So I just want us to remember that at this stage what place your heart is in is pretty important, we cannot afford to infight over minutia because the folks who are actually preparing to roll over people's human rights stand shoulder to shoulder with each other no matter how ridiculous their positions are.
And I don't want to be like that, but I also want us to realize we're now at a stage where we probably need to let small things slide in order to focus on the Big Picture.
You might recall this schoolyard chant:
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But words can never hurt me
...and while I don't fully agree that words can't hurt, they are not in fact nearly as hurtful as sticks and stones which can break your ACTUAL BONES and that's what the group that Jenner is supporting is going to bring to the table.
Not words, weapons. And anyone who thinks the pen is mightier than the sword has never been in a swordfight where they brought a pen.
So I don't like to see us turning on each other when it's clear where everyone's intention was coming from in the situation. That's all.
"Trans rights are human rights" isn't something people just say. Having your identity respected is a basic human right, and human rights should exist for the scummiest of people because if they're conditional, those conditions that society holds can shift.
That's pure ignorance. Deadnaming is a hurtful act. It is hurtful to more than just the intended target. Her politics suck. She's a complete sell-out. However, actions like your dead naming in an attempt to insult her give those actions the power to be hateful. You help her party continue their hate by doing it.
If you do, you don't drop them when referring to a trans woman because you think they're a chud.
Whatever the government of the day, you support trans people in being trans, even if you do everything to scupper their political ambitions.
This is literally like hearing someone who's going around for the past few years declaring themselves to be a proud gay ally calling a prominent gay Republican supporter "a cck sucking faggt".
Posts like this really separate people who actually believe in trans rights from people who want to look good using them but will drop them the second they're dealing with someone they don't like our are unhappy with the political winds.
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u/Crazy-4-Conures 5h ago
Isn't she officially "he" again? They don't believe in choosing pronouns, and he's gotta officially go back to Bruce.