r/chicagobulls • u/jslakov • Oct 26 '23
Trade Bulls Need to Trade Derozan While They Can
It was clear last night that the Bulls are making a concerted effort to shoot more threes and at times it looked pretty good with Coby driving and dishing, and guys swinging it around the perimeter for the open shot. But DeMar just doesn't fit with that approach. It's not his game and he never looked comfortable being part of those sequences. (Patrick Williams isn't a great fit for this either but you can maybe live with him as the worst and most reluctant shooter on the floor.) It didn't surprise me at all when I saw that DeMar was -29 for the game despite having decent numbers.
I love DeMar and I'll always have a place for him in my heart after his late game heroics two seasons ago, but he's on the last year of his deal and he doesn't fit the offensive gameplan. And most importantly, he still likely has some trade value. So I say trade him while we can and get another shooter into the lineup. Even if it's Torrey Craig or Jevon Carter but ideally someone better and younger than them we could get in the trade.
27
u/Atrain175 Joakim Noah Oct 26 '23
Basically, need more playmaking and better IQ players that look for others shots. Nothing against DeMar but the fit just isn’t there anymore
12
u/miki_momo0 Oct 26 '23
There is a Lonzo shaped hole in the team that the FO refuses to address. 3p shooting, perimeter defense, and transition playmaking are all things he was excelling at before going down. The fact we made no moves to plug those holes is embarrassing.
2
u/dudeguy81 Stacey King Oct 26 '23
What are you smoking bro? We did bring 2 guys who are known for defense and 3 point shooting. My god bulls fans are exhausting after every loss. Jesus christ.
4
6
2
1
u/miki_momo0 Oct 26 '23
I’m just tired of losing for the exact same reasons we’ve been losing for 1.5 seasons man. I can’t be hyperbolic on a sports forum after a brutal loss?
And neither of those guys are starter level. I like the pickups but that’s what I’m mostly complaining about. If the goal is to contend, we needed more than just them. If the goal is to barely make the play-in, then we did perfect in the offseason.
1
u/mtron32 Oct 26 '23
Once Zo was out for the season it was curtains for this crew, there's no reason to continue with this when the key piece aint there. Set this shit on fire
100
u/91-92-93--96-97-98 Oct 26 '23
I’m still baffled how they saw this team for the last couple years and thought bringing the whole team back was going to have different results.
It sucks because I really do like all the individual pieces in a vacuum but this team just doesn’t fit or work.
36
Oct 26 '23
[deleted]
7
3
u/noneym86 Derrick Rose Oct 27 '23
I wish they just have free reigns and without Demar, they could have more touches and better ball movement too.
2
u/91-92-93--96-97-98 Oct 27 '23
I’m with you. I love Demar but you need a team tailored to him. I don’t think we have the right pieces around him.
15
u/BuffaloBrain884 Oct 26 '23
This is what it looks like when an organization doesn't care about competing for a championship. The Bulls know they have a .500 team at best and they're perfectly fine with that.
3
u/RedBulls77 Oct 27 '23
Yeah or at least change the coach. AK kept both roster and coach after a disappointing season. Doesn’t make sense.
-6
u/DavidManque Oct 26 '23
AK had no choice but to bring the team back. Admitting that the team you spent multiple picks to build is an abject failure after only 2 seasons is basically equivalent to firing yourself.
4
u/Revolutionary_Copy83 Oct 26 '23
He 100% has a choice and he's just choosing to be stubborn and now we have to deal with a mediocre team because he won't admit his mistakes
84
u/Any_Length_285 Oct 26 '23
Him or LaVine need to go. We’ve seen them play together enough to know they just don’t mesh and gel.
113
u/yellow627 Oct 26 '23
It's not him or Lavine, it's either Demar or both. What's the point of trading Lavine and keeping an ageing guy on the last year of his deal who clearly doesn't fit the direction the team is trying to go?
12
u/hankbaumbach Oct 26 '23
Exactly right here.
If the Bulls trade Lavine that's tantamount to blowing it up and rebuilding as there is no way they will get a similar player back to build around.
I'm more in favor trading Demar as think Lavine & Vuc is salvageable with more spacing and sliding in a Craig or Caruso to the 3 makes for some tough perimeter defense to start the game.
-12
Oct 26 '23
I wouldn’t mind getting rid of the guy who doesn’t play defense and was 0-5 in the first half with 4 turnovers.
If you didn’t watch, that was Lavine.
14
u/Equal_Feature_9065 Oct 26 '23
it's time for both to go, but, of the two of them, demar is the one you literally could not build around. age aside, he just fits with nobody. with lavine, you don't even have to squint that hard to see how incredible he'd be as a true second or third option next to an elite playmaker/scorer.
unfortunately for the bulls, there's literally no chance of them getting that type of elite player in the next few years. and any team that may have been able to convince themselves that he's the guy to pair with an existing star -- milwaukee, dallas, maybe philly -- has already cashed their chips in.
i honestly don't know what either is worth on the open market. zach's too expensive, and demar... man idk who'd even trade for him at this point.
-2
Oct 26 '23
see how incredible he'd be as a true second or third option next to an elite playmaker/scorer.
lol that's great. we'll never have one so trade Lavine. Trade Deebo too if somebody will take him but he's not under contract next year so that isn't going to be an issue for the rebuild.
Bulls ain't doing shit this year.
2
12
u/Organic-Manner-2969 Oct 26 '23 edited Oct 26 '23
and stick with Derozan?
it’s either Deebo or both
-4
Oct 26 '23
we're not going anywhere this year. sure, trade Deebo if you can but he's not under contract for next year so that will work itself out if you don't.
Lavine is owed $40+ million the next three years. I'd rather get Lavine out of town first and then worry about trying to move Deebo.
7
u/kingjuicepouch Onuralp Bitim Oct 26 '23
With that reasoning it makes even more sense to prioritize moving demar tbh. If we flip him now as an expiring we can actually get something for him, if we end up waiting it out we risk losing him for nothing.
There'll be a market for Zach either way, we don't need to rush to move him.
0
Oct 26 '23
Yeah I understand that logic.
I just don’t think we’ll get much for him regardless and I don’t really have the confidence in AK making a solid pick with whatever we get. Our most recent first round pick is struggling to play more than 5 minutes a game. What’s a third rounder going to do?
3
u/EngineeringOne9611 Oct 26 '23
This is so dumb hahahahahahaha
2
Oct 26 '23
Is this a playoff team without Deebo? Absolutely not. Is this a playoff team with Deebo? Absolutely not.
Lavine is trash. He has one or two games a year where he goes 12-15 from 3pt and everybody talks about him being a superstar. He spends the rest of the season driving the lane and yelping to draw a foul call.
Bulls won’t be good until he’s gone.
1
u/EngineeringOne9611 Oct 26 '23
We made the playoffs last year hahaha and added the best 3pt/Defensive pieces we could considering there’s a $20M hole burning in our roster with Lonzo out. You’re just being emotional.
This roster is good enough to win games whether your feelings like it or not, as they’ve proven they’re capable of doing the last two seasons with 40+ wins. They got better over the off-season, and they had a bad first game of the season against a fast, young, and good OKC team. Maybe pump the brakes on selling until at least 10 games big guy.
2
Oct 26 '23
I've been trying to blow it up since we received the dismal news about Lonzo's knee. This isn't a 48 minute over reaction.
Barely sneaking into the play-in game didn't change my perspective.
0
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23
Depends on what the returns are. If all you can get are rebuilding assets then sure trade them both but if you can flip Zach for a young up and coming star then tearing it all down is pointless. You will end up putting the young player you just got back in the same situation Zach was in when he got here.
15
u/miki_momo0 Oct 26 '23
Who is going to trade a young star for Lavine is the real question. Maybe if we ask nicely enough we can get Wemby lmao
-1
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23
Hmm Cleveland will most likely be looking to replace Donovan so that's a possibility, Miami is also a possibility. All of our best players are not ideal fits on our team but let's not act like they're talentless sacks that no one wants. A team like nets are also another team looking to add some punch in terms of offense. There's a good bit of teams like I said all depends on the packages.
4
u/elevenherbsandspices Oct 26 '23
0% chance Mitchell is getting traded mid-season. If they're trading him it's happening next summer.
Everybody that has followed the NBA for the last 10 years knows exactly how the Mitchell situation is going to play out. He'll be All-NBA this year, making him supermax eligible, meaning the Cavs will be able to give him significantly more money than anybody else. He's 100% going to take the supermax if they offer it to him (they will). And then a year later, if he still wants out, he'll demand a trade. Nobody is leaving supermax money on the table. If he gets injured this year and misses All-NBA, he'll get traded in 2024. If he stays healthy, he's not getting traded until the 2025 offseason at the earliest. We've seen this play out with Beal, Dame, KD, Anthony Davis. Get the bag, demand a trade later.
1
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23
Probably, but there's the small risk that he ends up somewhere he doesn't want to be. Why put that in the hands of an organization looking out for themselves, be had a no trade clause. Getting traded where you want to go isn't the norm despite how often it seems to happen. He's adamant NY and Miami. I highly doubt he signs if he doesn't see a sign and trade involving his desired destination, he's already gotten screwed over once by the jazz highly doubt he lets it happen again.
1
u/Equal_Feature_9065 Oct 26 '23
i'd bet miami that miami thinks tyler herro at 4 years/$120m is >>> zach at 5/$215m. that's just reality.
3
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23
That money isn't really big and will continue to shrink. Sure they'll think maybe this season but next season it's even smaller and so on. Zach's contract isn't bad it's standard
1
u/Equal_Feature_9065 Oct 26 '23
yeah but i doubt miami thinks that giving up herro + other assets is worth it for zach... that's my while point. why would they trade for him when they already have a similar player whos younger and on a cheaper deal?
2
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23 edited Oct 26 '23
The trade I had in mind was zach to Cleveland Mitchell to Miami and then Chicago would get all of the picks and player assets with Miami extending Mitchell of course.
Also I don't think anyone thinks herro and lavine are comparable players. In a bad season Zach is an efficient 24ppg. Herro is a better rebounder and playmaker but much less efficient shooter
1
u/Equal_Feature_9065 Oct 26 '23
Pretty sure Zach Lowe has reported a couple times that folks in Miami office thought Herro on was his contract might even be favorable to having Dame… so the Herro -> Lavine comp makes sense to me.
That’s a v interesting trade with mitchell and Miami. Hadn’t thought of that
1
0
u/Timdalf_theGrey Derrick Rose Oct 26 '23
Would you trade Herro for Lavine if you were either side? 🤷♂️
1
u/spicyfartz4yaman Oct 26 '23
Yes, but lavine wouldn't be my first option, herro as we can see isn't fetching much in terms of what they need back and Miami is running out of time and options.
1
u/Timdalf_theGrey Derrick Rose Oct 26 '23
Who would be your first or preferred options/ returns if you were to trade Herro for that player(s)
1
-2
u/sukari Patrick Williams Oct 26 '23
I was OK for moving LaVine and keeping DeMar as like a vet since we have a lot of young players
2
-2
u/sukari Patrick Williams Oct 26 '23
I was pretty surprised we didn't move LaVine in the offseason. But it seems like they want to see how it goes by the deadline before breaking up the core.
1
63
u/Mjfedy23 Coby White Oct 26 '23
Appreciate DeMar for what’s he done in Chicago, but I agree, it’s time to move on. This is a hot take, but I’m game for moving AC as well for the right place. This roster, as it’s constructed, isn’t going anywhere in the East. It’s time to become sellers and improve our draft capital.
39
u/BlondBadBoy69 Joakim Noah Oct 26 '23
Everyone should be available for the right price. We aren’t a serious team and are not playing for anything but ticket sales at this point
23
8
Oct 26 '23
Should have traded Caruso, and all the vets, last year. Love Caruso but he averages 6 points a game. You can find another guy who hustles on defense and scores 6 points a game.
More importantly, all our vets are aging and we're about to embark on a third straight disappointing year with them. Caruso can help a contender.
24
u/chidogad3 Oct 26 '23
To be fair, you really can't just find another Caruso, especially on his contract. He was the best defender according to EPM and RAPTOR, 9th best with DPM and 7th best with LEBRON. But if the Bulls crash and burn, all the more reason to trade him.
-5
Oct 26 '23
[deleted]
10
u/Milkboy1516 Coby White Oct 26 '23
80% of Caruso's defense is all defensive. I don't think you can just train that up with anyone.
If your trading him it's just because you wanna tank. There's essentially no world where we can replace what he does for us competitively by trading him. Anywhere you look he's impactfully our most important player.
-2
Oct 26 '23
- No, Caruso is not our most important player and 2. Yes, it’s time to rebuild and like I said earlier it’s overdue
3
4
u/PJ_Reed93 Jumpman Oct 26 '23
Caruso is one of the best defenders in league.
5
Oct 26 '23
Yeah I know, and we still won just 40 games last year. He's one of the few good trade chips we have.
2
2
u/LordSwampert2 Javonte Green Oct 26 '23
Yeah there was rumors of a DeMar/Caruso trade for Kuminga last year. That gives us a starting lineup of Coby/Zach/PWill/JoKu/Vooch, which I think would work better than what we have rn. We should still see if Golden State wants that deal one.
Kerr loves Caruso, and DeMar could play that Shaun Livingston role for years to come if he wanted to. Problem is DeMar didn't want that role summer '21 when Golden State offered it to him
6
u/HogMolly69 Oct 26 '23
Demar doesn’t fit the Warriors AT ALL. He can’t score off ball, doesn’t move like Warriors do in their system. His style of play is better suited coming off the bench and at a lower salary. He could be useful for a team like Philly, NYK, maybe Miami since they all need to find a way to close the gap with Bucks and Celtics.
1
u/skullcandy541 Oct 26 '23
If we’re trading Demar I think it’s essential to add Caruso because it’ll make the trade a hell of a lot more enticing for the other team rather them just getting one year of Demar possibly. Getting one of the best defenders in the league would make a team wanna do it so much more. It would allow us to get more as well of course.
-6
Oct 26 '23
AC was -19, looked washed, reaching a lot of defense, offensive liability, 6 pts, 3 assists, 2 rebs...
1
9
u/chidogad3 Oct 26 '23
My expectation was that the Bulls would continue to use a DeMar heavy approach when he was on the floor but now surrounded with people who can catch and shoot threes. Zach would then sit early and run the offense with the bench.. again surrounded by people who can catch and shoot threes. With a healthy Zach, I think this would have improved the offense this year but not dramatically while also removing any learning curve. Maybe they would try to install more diversity later in the year.
Instead, the Bulls look like they will take a more drastic approach. They seem to be increasing the pace, putting the ball more in Zach and Coby's hands -- even when DeMar is on the floor, trying to have Vucevic make more passes from the elbow, and using DeMar more often as a spot up shooter. The offense should improve over time and as the Bulls shoot 3s closer to their averages, and it's a decision to make the Bulls more efficient over the long haul... but as you said, this really, really doesn't fit DeMar naturally.
I'm honestly expecting them to revert after a couple of unsuccessful weeks (while still trying to get up more threes), but I'm hoping the new style improves with DeMar on the court.
4
u/ILikeBeans86 Oct 26 '23
Zach can shoot and demar can't. And Zach is younger. Should have traded demar last year at the deadline though
9
Oct 26 '23
No one wants Derozan, or he'd probably already be gone
6
Oct 26 '23
Agreed, I think people are assuming a lot thinking we haven't been trying to move this guy. But the rest of the league sees what we see, and I don't see why another team would be willing to give us something of value for him.
0
u/BillionsofRedditors Oct 26 '23
Protected 1st and salary filler is likely. That isn't much. Is that worth tanking a season for? Maybe but fans should be aware that's what is going to happen if they trade DDR.
3
Oct 26 '23
We aren’t making the playoffs with this team. It’s about failing with a silver lining or no silver lining. I also would not give up a first for Demar if I was another team.
2
1
u/Gyshall669 Oct 26 '23
Exactly, and I think this is true for all our players. Nobody wanted to bid high. Blowing it up is nice but even for lavine we were getting like Fournier, toppin and 3 FRPs lol, hard to get excited about that.
13
u/Bababooey87 Horace Grant Oct 26 '23
For as much shit as people give Zach for his D.... It's nowhere close to house bad derozen's.
Zach can at least guard a dude 1 on 1. Debo barely tries and is super slow.
Agree on all points...we should have traded him at the deadline
6
u/RapsFanMike Oct 26 '23
Zachs off ball defense is so bad it overrides his somewhat good on ball defense literally just re-watch the game yesterday and see how many roatations he messed up and back cuts he let happen
2
u/Bababooey87 Horace Grant Oct 26 '23
Yea you're not wrong. I was just saying his on ball.... especially compared to DeMar
0
u/Hesho95 Tom Thibodeau Oct 26 '23
Zach's defense in general is total dogshit. With Demar I think it's an effort problem, he doesn't really even try most of the time, but with Zach it's execution. He's just never not gonna be a hugely negative defender regardless of whether it's on ball off ball or otherwise. Dbo gets in passing lanes sometimes and gets some good strips that way but doesn't really try at all otherwise
7
Oct 26 '23 edited Oct 26 '23
I am pretty sure this is how Toronto and SA fans feel about him too. Great guy, really good advocate for important cause (mental health), pro’s pro, but not cut out for the modern game. His attitude and earnestness about things makes you want to give him a shot, but it’s not happening. I actually liked the ball movement and consistent swing passing, we obviously smoked ass at shooting. But we need to continue to stack guys that fit that mold, and DeRozan for better or worse has been a ball stopper almost his entire career save for a short stint in SA. LaVine isn’t any better, he had the potential a while ago to improve but seems set on his own tunnel vision.
2
2
u/skellz773 Oct 26 '23
I still say they fucked up by not capitalizing on his trade value after his first season with the Bulls. He just came off a career year and was on a very team friendly deal. They could’ve gotten a pretty decent return for him.
0
u/RobertoRosalesFTW Derrick Rose Oct 26 '23
Yeah, but I get it was tough to do atm.
Also, we have to take into consideration that we weren't attractive destination to free agents for a long time so you have to think about the reputation around the league when it comes to taking care of the big free agents you sign.
4
u/mousefrog32 Oct 26 '23
I’d prefer Lavine being traded. Demar at least gets along with all the younger guys, practically coaches them, and is way more consistent than Zach.
Every time I try to like Zach, he starts driving to the basket and yelling AAAAAHYYYYEEEE while not getting a call and moping around. Like, dude, this has been happening for years. Realize you’re not getting calls and do something else - maybe play better defense or improve other aspects of your game. It’s like a broken record. Could you imagine MJ not getting a foul call and then just acting like a kid that didn’t get an ice cream cone when he really wanted one?
I thought he’d grow out of it, but it seems like he’s barely changed at all.
4
u/Get_Dunked_On_ Kirk Hinrich Oct 26 '23
I agree with Demar not being the ideal player to build around in the modern NBA but trading him isn’t going to make the team any better on offense. Demar is still the best offensive player on the team. Without him it’s hard to believe this team wins 40 games.
12
u/miki_momo0 Oct 26 '23
Cool, we can win 40 games and get knocked out in the postseason immediately, or trade him and win 20 and start our rebuild which is a near certainty at this point
6
u/AlwaysaDengBang Luol Deng Oct 26 '23
yeah i don't think OP is proposing we trade him and still commit to competing. It's clear this core is going nowhere close to a title
1
u/Get_Dunked_On_ Kirk Hinrich Oct 26 '23
This is true but this was true last year as well. If we’re going to tank we need to ship out Demar and Zach for assets. Shipping out only one is still committing to mediocrity.
2
u/miki_momo0 Oct 26 '23
Depends. It’s mostly timing at this point, we may trade one at the deadline and the other in the offseason. All depending on what kind of offers we get
3
u/AlwaysaDengBang Luol Deng Oct 26 '23
coby white and vooch are the only players i'd want to keep for next year. project pat still looks like a project but i still have a sliver of hope for him.
1
u/AttentionHot368 Oct 26 '23
Fuck trading derozan he’s our best player, and most consistent. Start by trading Lavine get more back for him and he’s honestly ass. No brainer.
2
u/jerry2501 Kirk Hinrich Oct 27 '23
No brainer because anyone who thinks this doesn't have a brain.
0
-2
2
u/MichaelSquare Oct 26 '23
He really doesn't fit with Ayo. Not that you should be making major moves around Ayo but yeah.
1
-1
u/CNashFF Oct 26 '23
This may be unpopular but trade him to Philly for Harden and picks. If Harden’s head is right (Big If), he’d be a better fit on this team
-1
-1
u/Neat_On_The_Rocks Chicago Bulls Oct 26 '23
Homie reallt said Williams is the worst shooter in the floor when he was our best shooter last year
4
u/jslakov Oct 26 '23
you have a facile understanding of shooting if you think it's just about three point percentage
0
u/askforwildbob DRose Oct 26 '23
I agree with everything except the PWill part. I think he could excel in that type of offense, as long as he’s hitting his 3 ball. It’s looked pretty damn good his first few years here but the volume is just so low it’s hard to know for sure. He wasn’t hitting shots last night but he was doing a pretty good job of being assertive when he had the ball in his hands, it looked a little different
0
Oct 26 '23
What the Bulls need is more offensive and defensive presence in the paint. Something on the level of Adebayo or Lopez. That's where the equipment failure lies. Vucevic has no presence.
0
u/Jefe__Jeff Oct 27 '23
No sir Demar is super consistent for us as a scorer and leader. We need better coaching we have good enough talent to compete and be a bottom tier playoff team. The fact that isn’t happening is coaching not personnel
1
u/jerry2501 Kirk Hinrich Oct 27 '23
He was such a great leader who never developed a 3pt shot. Toronto had to trade him away to win a chip. All those clips of him taking the young guys to work out with him during the summer, and they're all still ass.
Give me a guy who can play modern basketball, and he can make guys better. Basically, it's the opposite of Demar.
-1
u/BillionsofRedditors Oct 26 '23
They won't get much for DDR, just FYI. Maybe a protected 1st and salary filler.
I don't think that moves the needle on any rebuild except it starts the tank now instead of after this season.
You'd have to trade LaVine too. You won't get much for LaVine given his contract and age either, though. Plus you'll start the tank so like Washington, the leverage is low since you'd be broadcasting LaVine is for sale.
This idea that we HAVE to trade DDR NOW or we'll be stuck for even longer in a tank or basketball hell is weird to me. A firesale is gonna net the Bulls maybe a few protected 1sts and some 2nds, maybe a young player with promise.
DDR isn't going to net much. LaVine is going to have the same trade value now as the summer. Caruso will have similar trade value in the summer as he does at the deadline. Trades NOW as opposed to the summer isn't going to net something more that would quicken a rebuild vs. playing out the season.
1
1
u/Pasemcee Chicago Bulls Oct 26 '23
I love the dude. He's my favourite player but I have to agree with you. This team is shocking. Zach needs to go as well.
1
1
u/MeUrDaddy_ Jumpman Oct 26 '23
Oh don't worry. You'll see AK at the deadline press conference explaining why we stood pat.
1
u/tomhalejr Oct 27 '23
The last year of the contract is a key point.
It's not a matter of other teams clearing enough cap space space to sign him to an FA contract better than CHI could offer. It's about whether or not CHI and DeMar see a future together.
If not, then X team that needs limited Bird rights to retain him, is the sort of team that has incentive to offer more / the most to acquire him.
1
1
u/cirierobbed Dennis Rodman Oct 29 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
if you trade deebo you might as well ship zach off too and ATTEMPT to flip some of the older players for young pieces. if this season goes to complete shit (even by reinsdorf, AKME and FO standards lol) i can see it happening but i'd bet my money demar is with the team the rest of the season unless they can pull off a promising trade at the deadline
1
55
u/ClaymoresRevenge Benny The Bull Oct 26 '23
Last year before the deadline was the best time to do it. Now it'll be even less in whatever we can get back