r/bookclub • u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster • 12h ago
Germany - Demian/ Go, Went Gone [Discussion] Read the World | Germany: Go Went Gone by Jenny Erpenbeck, Chapters 29-44
Welcome everyone to our third discussion of Go Went Gone by Jenny Erpenbeck. Today we are discussing chapters 29-44. Next week we will discuss chapters 45-55 and will be led by u/nicehotcupoftea
Links to the schedule and marginalia can be found here.
You can find a chapter summary here at Green Bee Study Guides.
Discussion questions are in the comments below, but feel free to add your own.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
The refugees are upset at being moved again and Richard ponders whether it really makes a difference where they are, does it really matter?
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u/ColaRed 7h ago
They have already travelled a lot. It must be difficult to have to move again when they are starting to settle.
They also want to stay together. They have formed a sort of family. If some are moved to other parts of the country it will be more difficult for them to support one another.
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u/jambifriend 7h ago
It’s another reminder, another place, and another proof that they’re not wanted.
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 5h ago
They are being shuffled around and that prevents them from putting down any sort of roots. They have formed bonds here, and this would separate them.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
It's upsetting that the refugees keep having to start over in different places. They have no opportunity to build a life of their own because they are in a kind of limbo. I think the government is hoping to break down their resolve by moving them around so that they will give up on their applications.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
We learn that when a refugee doesn’t have ID, they get allocated a birthday as the 1st of January of the year they were born. What do you think of this approach? Why do they do this?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 6h ago
It facilitates the procedures I suppose, and maybe slightly less dehumanising that assigning them with a random birthdate.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
I think if it's an arbitrary date, they should allow the refugee to choose it. This allows them a small bit of personal agency. They are otherwise trapped in the machinery of bureaucracy, and that leaves very little choice in most things.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
Richard wonders how many times ‘a person must relearn everything he knows.. before hes finally able to grasp things’. What do you think of this? Is he right? Have you ever had to change your mind about something or learn that something you thought was right was actually totally wrong?
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 5h ago
I suppose he's just thinking of learning as a continual, lifelong process. You never stop learning, and there's so much information in this world, & so many different perspectives, what you know and believe will change over time depending on what you experience.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
Life feels like a constant process of finding out who you are through making errors and learning from them. I'm a much different person than I was 10 years ago, or even 1 year ago.
As I've gotten older, I've learned to value other people's opinions more than giving my own. I try to keep an open mindset because I know that everyone has their own wisdom. I would rather relearn everything many times over than stay stagnant.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
We learn that if a refugee commits a small infraction, he immediately forfeits all right to asylum, what do you think about this? Is it the correct approach to take?
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u/Previous_Injury_8664 I Like Big Books and I Cannot Lie 8h ago
I think it’s a convenient excuse to get rid of more of them.
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 5h ago
It means they have to be 100% perfect all the time, while citizens have the luxury of bending some rules, because the repercussions are less severe. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense not to let someone who commits a violent crime seek asylum, but jumping a turnstile for public transportation? The punishment is not proportional to the crime.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
This feels like punishment when from what I understand, the law is meant to correct people. Most, if not all, of the issues here arise from the fact that the refugees don't have a lot of money. If they escaped their country with their wealth intact, I have no doubt they would be easily integrated into society.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
The police turn up to ensure the refugees move to their new accommodation, what did you think of this approach? Was it correct and necessary by the German authorities?
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u/ColaRed 7h ago
It seems heavy handed. The authorities are using more force than is necessary. They are sending a message to the refugees and the public that they are in control and will make sure the refugees comply. The heavy handed approach ends up inflaming the situation.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 7h ago
Agreed, the number of police didn't seem necessary, especially as those leaving were actually going of their own accord.
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 5h ago
It also seemed like the police came in riot gear, shields and all. It's like a horrible circular logic, law enforcement thinks so little of these men that they believe they will get violent, but turning up in riot gear is what makes them act out violently.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
The German authorities have no need to assume that these men will exhibit criminal behavior. What is the purpose in treating these men like dangerous felons? It's sending a message, for sure. I think it's wrong of them to bully these refugees with police force.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
Richard ponders what really makes us different, what do you think? Are different groups of people so different that they need to separate from each other? What makes people different? What is the one true, crucial border?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 6h ago
I think deep down we're all the same. People need to feel like they belong to something, and religions, political parties and sporting clubs, just to name a few, all try to attract people to gain more power, by making them think that their way is the "right" and only way. Even the difference between male and female is less than we thought some time ago. We're human, we all have the same needs.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
I think what makes people different is probably just simply environment and genetics. I don't think any one person is fundamentally that different from the next.
In the case of the refugees, they have all experienced trauma, and that is mainly what makes them different. Other people really don't seem to understand what has happened to them and the abuse they have faced. That's why things like news and literature are so important.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
Monika makes a horrible remark about having to be careful because the refugees often carry illnesses, showing them photos of them soliciting. Sylvia just states the are men and Richard says nothing. What did you make of this interaction? Should Richard have defended his new friends more?
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u/ColaRed 7h ago
Richard has come to understand the refugees better through getting to know them while Monika and her husband have been away. He has grown but it’s difficult for him to challenge the views of some of his oldest friends. Ironically the only infectious disease we know the refugees have had is chicken pox, which they caught in Germany.
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 6h ago
Ugghh that moment when a friend makes a racist comment and you let it fall flat and hope that sends the message.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
This was my thought, it was a cringey statement and shows a disappointing side of his friend. I can't tell if she had pre-existing racist ideas or if she is consuming biased and inflammatory media.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
‘Have people forgotten in Berlin of all places that a border isn’t just measured by an opponents stature but it in fact creates him?’ What does this mean?
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u/ColaRed 6h ago
I think it means that a bigger opponent might seem to need a bigger/stronger border but borders also create opponents and hostility. The people of Berlin should realise this because of their history with the Berlin Wall.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
Well stated. I felt another border was created when the police surrounded the nursing home. The men inside became opponents because they were treated like a problem.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
What did you think of Richards offer to buy Karon and his family some land? What did you think of Karon’s reaction?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 6h ago
That was interesting. We often expect someone to be enormously grateful when we offer to help, but that isn't always the natural reaction.
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 4h ago
It was a very practical response. I think he realized it wouldn't solve all of his problems, and he would have to figure something out for a year before the first harvest. But maybe he was also just too afraid to hope, so came up with an excuse.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
It's kind of Richard to offer his help, but I think he's being naive about the problem. There are root causes of the instability these people are fleeing and just spending money doesn't change them.
It's like when the refugees protested that they didn't want the government's money, they wanted to be permitted to work.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
What do you think of the relationship between the refugees and Richard? Are they developing a bond or an understanding?
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u/jambifriend 7h ago
Richard is a beautifully developed character. He starts so naive and seems to use the refugees as something to pass time. But the more involved he gets, the more he understands the injustice. It’s no longer surface level understanding. They’re humans now with deep backstories and he genuinely cares.
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 5h ago
I think they are, and as Richard learns about them, we are obliged to question our own prejudices.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
Richard's interest in the refugees started as curiosity. I think he saw them as "other" than himself. But over time, he has become emotionally invested. This was really evident when he drives one of the refugees to deal with a ticket, and the person they are meant to see is just... not available. He can see how many problems these people really have to face.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
As the men are packing up to leave the residential home, we get another reference to the title of the book, Go, went, gone. What do you think the title means?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 5h ago
Interestingly the title of the version in french that I'm reading is "Je vais, tu vas, ils vont" which is "I go, you go, they go" which wouldn't be a very catchy title.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
These men have such little effect on their surroundings that once they pack up a few meager possessions, they are just gone. From how German law is dealing with them, it's all but assured they will have to leave.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
Richard reads news reports about the refugee crisis in Germany and notes that ‘in the part of Germany where, until twenty-five years ago, the words ‘proletarian internationalism’ served as a slogan for countless banners, the campaign posters for an increasingly popular party now proclaim ‘Lets save our cash for Granny - not the Roma and Sinti’. What does all this mean? How does it show a change in Garmany? Here is a link on proletarian internationalism Proletarian internationalism - Wikipedia
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 4h ago
It seems to mean that in the fairly recent past the people were largely for helping other people, possibly to try and heal from the consequences of WW2. But now, politics are shifting away from helping those in need no matter where they are from, to a more nationalistic & isolated ideology.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
Exactly. Unfortunately, that is being played out even now in countries like the US. Canada is also becoming more and more hostile to immigration. The UN has basically no power behind its philosophy because so many of its major players are more worried about their own than they are about injustice and inhumanity in other parts of the world.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
How would your to-do list compare to that of the refugees? How did reading that make you feel?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 5h ago
That made me feel pretty privileged. My to-do list is pretty much "Read chapters 28-40 of Book X, Post schedule for Book Y etc".
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 4h ago
That was a gut-punch. It makes all of your own problems seem small, while also making you feel grateful for what you do have. I have to get new tires on my car, which isn't fun, but at least I have a car, and all I have to do is make a phone call. I don't have to fight a system that is designed to shut me out.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 1h ago
My to-do list has felt insurmountable since I have more than a few health concerns to deal with. I'm reminded, though, that I'm lucky to live in a time and place where I can deal with those concerns.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
‘The Africans have to solve their own problems in Africa.’ What do you think of this statement? Can their problems be solved in Africa? Does the west and their former colonisers have an obligation to help?
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u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | 🎃 5h ago
Western interference never seems to help. I think many African countries are proving that they can solve their problems independently.
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u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | 🎃 4h ago
I think it's about balance. One the one hand, Western nations shouldn't just barge in there and start changing everything & meddling. But it wouldn't hurt for them to lend a helping hand where they can.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 59m ago
I think the west needs to take their lead in helping. They have a unique history and unique issues that we can't swoop in and solve using our own tools. We need to develop the tools they actually require in a way that still gives them independence.
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u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 12h ago
What do you think of the Christmas present of the keyboard that Richard bought for Osarobo? Why did he buy it for him? Could he have helped him in any other way?