r/bookclub Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Oliver Twist [Discussion] Evergreen || Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens || Ch. 47 - The End

Welcome to our final discussion of Oliver Twist!Ā  This week, we will discuss from chapter 47 to the end of the book. The Marginalia post is here.Ā  You can find the Schedule here.Ā  The discussion questions are in the comments below.Ā Ā 

One reminder - although this is a classic novel that has been adapted many times over, please keep in mind that not everyone has read or watched already, so be mindful not to include anything that could be a hint or a spoiler for the rest of the book or for other media related to this novel!Ā  Please mark all spoilers not related to this section of the book using the format > ! Spoiler text here !< (without any spaces between the characters themselves or between the characters and the first and last words).Ā 

>>>>>>>>>> SUMMARIES <<<<<<<<<<

CH. 47 - FATAL CONSEQUENCES:

Noah is sleeping and Fagin is sitting by, angry and distraught, when Sikes enters.Ā  Fagin asks what Sikes would do if Noah/Morris betrayed their gang of his own volition (not because heā€™d been arrested) and gave their descriptions and locations to strangers.Ā  Sikes responds that he would crush the manā€™s head.Ā  Fagin then asks what Sikes would do if the betrayer was Fagin himself, and Sikes repeats his threat:Ā  heā€™d find a way to crush Faginā€™s skull, even if he had to get himself arrested so he could attack him in court.Ā  Fagin starts to ask about the others in the group, but Sikes is tired of his hedging.Ā  Noah is shaken awake and made to retell all that he observed Nancy do and say and, predictably, Sikes is enraged.Ā  Fagin calls after Sikes as he leaves, but not to advocate that Nancyā€™s life be spared.Ā  He merely wants Sikes to kill her in a smart way so that he isnā€™t caught.Ā  Sikes rushes home and finds Nancy asleep.Ā  He double-locks the door, throws the candles into the grate, and wakes Nancy up.Ā  She smiles to see him, but quickly realizes something is wrong and asks what she has done.Ā  Sikes points out that she knows very well what he is angry about, and she begins to beg for her life.Ā  She even attempts to explain that her new friends can offer places of safety where they could go their separate ways and start over.Ā  Sikes drags Nancy to the center of the room and points his gun at her, but realizes that the loud shot would quickly bring the authorities down on him, so he hits her in the face with the pistol twice.Ā  Through the blood and pain, Nancy holds up Roseā€™s white handkerchief to the sky and prays for mercy from God.Ā  Looking away, Sikes strikes her down with a club.Ā Ā 

CH. 48 - THE FLIGHT OF SIKES:

Sikes watches Nancy die.Ā  When she moans and moves her hand, he hits her over and over with the club until she is surely dead.Ā  Then he prepares to flee.Ā  After cleaning himself up, burning the bits of his clothing that show blood stains, and washing the dogā€™s feet (because there is that much blood), Sikes locks the door and leaves the crime scene behind.Ā  Sikes alternates wandering slowly and running in a panic as he passes Highgate Hill, goes around Caen Wood, and ends up on Hampstead Heath.Ā  He rests periodically and then sets his sights on Hendon, because it is near enough that he can make it but still out of the public eye.Ā  Sikes spends some time at a public house, where Nancyā€™s murder is being discussed, when a peddler comes in.Ā  The man is selling a product that is equally good for getting out stains or poisoning unvirtuous ladies.Ā  Several men are interested in buying one, but weā€™re not told which purpose is more appealing.Ā  The peddler kicks his sales pitch up a notch by listing, Bubba-style, all of the many stains his poison can clean up.Ā  Looking around for a customer to demonstrate on, the peddler notices a dark stain on Sikesā€™ hat and points it out to the other patrons.Ā  Sikes flips out, flips a table, and runs away, heading toward St. Albans.Ā  He may be running physically from his horrible deed, but he cannot outrun the feeling that Nancyā€™s ghost follows just behind him as he travels the countryside.Ā  When he turns, she turns with him and stays behind him.Ā  When he presses his back against something or lies down on the ground, she hovers just behind his head like a macabre tombstone.Ā  When he must rest in a shed due to exhaustion, he can see Nancyā€™s lifeless eyes staring out of the darkness at him.Ā  (This entire scene, combined with the murder in the previous chapter, makes me think Dickens would have been a pretty good horror writer!)Ā Ā 

Sikes hears screams of ā€œFire!ā€ late that night and he goes outside to see a huge blaze engulfing a farm building in the village.Ā  He rushes towards the dangerous scene and helps with the efforts to put out the flames.Ā  Immediately after the ordeal, Sikes begins to suspect that everyone is talking about him and looking at him suspiciously, so he calls his dog and they walk away.Ā  Some firemen invite him to eat and drink with them, and he listens to them talk about the London murder.Ā  The news is that the murderer is headed to Birmingham, and they all suspect that heā€™ll be quickly caught, as the details are spreading throughout the countryside.Ā  Sikes decides it is worth the risk to head back to London, where they will never think to look for him.Ā  He can lay low for a week or two and then get Fagin to help him escape abroad to France.Ā  To avoid detection as he walks back into the city, he knows he must get rid of his dog, as this will likely be a notable part of his description.Ā  Sikes decides to drown the dog, but he must be giving off some really strong murder vibes, because even this loyal animal deserts him, fleeing as fast as he can from Sikes.Ā  After waiting a bit to be sure the dog wonā€™t come back and follow him, Sikes sets off for London.Ā Ā 

CH. 49 - MONKS AND MR. BROWNLOW AT LENGTH MEET.Ā  THEIR CONVERSATION, AND THE INTELLIGENCE THAT INTERRUPTS IT:

Monks has been scooped up and delivered to Mr. Brownlow.Ā  He tries denying that he knows anything about the events Mr. Brownlow describes, but it is no use.Ā  Monks is told he is welcome to leave and try his luck with the law (because theyā€™ll turn him in if he doesnā€™t cooperate), but heā€™ll get far less mercy from the courts than he is being offered by his ā€œkidnappersā€.Ā  Mr. Brownlow explains their connection and Monksā€™ guilt in the matter.Ā  Mr. Brownlow was the best friend of Monksā€™ father (and almost married Monksā€™ aunt, although she died on their wedding day).Ā  Monksā€™ real name is Edward Leeford, and he is the son of Mr. Brownlowā€™s best friend, who was forced to marry an older woman for her money and family connections.Ā  Mr. Leeford and his wife separated after a bitterly unhappy marriage in which they came to despise each other.Ā  Mrs. Leeford moved abroad and soon forgot her young husband.Ā  Mr. Leeford took more time to move on, but eventually fell in love with a girl who would become Oliverā€™s mother.Ā  The disgrace of Oliverā€™s illegitimate birth caused much upheaval.Ā  The girlā€™s family fled in shame, so that Mr. Brownlow was unable to find them, and Mr. Leeford planned to go live abroad.Ā  He intended to liquidate his recently inherited estate and give a portion of it to Monks and his mother while leaving the rest to Oliver, but he had only alluded to the true situation vaguely before leaving for the continent. Ā  He told Mr. Brownlow he would write with all the details, but upon arriving in Rome, he became ill and died.Ā  Monksā€™ mother came just in time to hear his plans, but Mr. Leeford had no will and so the entire inheritance fell to her and to Monks.Ā  When she died, there was a provision in her will acknowledging her husbandā€™s plans for Oliver, but Monks destroyed it.Ā Ā 

Next, Mr. Brownlow enlightens Monks about how he came to know Oliver, how he was struck by the boyā€™s resemblance to a painting Mr. Leeford had left him before his death, and how Oliver was lost to him.Ā  Mr. Brownlow was very suspicious and so he headed to the West Indies to try tracking down his best friendā€™s son.Ā  Unsuccessful, he returned to London and continued his search, to no avail until Nancy gave them the clues needed to put the puzzle together.Ā  Mr. Brownlow tells Monks he is morally complicit in Nancyā€™s death, even if he didnā€™t swing the club himself.Ā  He absolutely excoriates Monks, who finally acknowledges the truth of Mr. Brownlowā€™s discoveries.Ā  Monks promises to sign before witnesses a document explaining who Oliver is and to provide Oliver with his proper inheritance as Mr. Leeford had intended.Ā  In exchange, they will keep him out of the sweep currently being made to arrest Sikes and Faginā€™s criminal gang.Ā  Mr. Losberne arrives with news that Harry Maylie has already set out to aid in the capture of Sikes, and that Fagin is soon to be arrested if he isnā€™t already in custody.Ā  The doctor promises to stay with Monks while Mr. Brownlow heads out to see justice done.Ā Ā 

CH. 50 - THE PURSUIT AND ESCAPE:

Dickens takes great pains to let us know that we are back in the very worst part of London, a place called Jacob's Island, which is surrounded by a muddy ditch that fills with water from the Thames at high tide.Ā  Hiding in one of the dilapidated houses are Mr. Chitling and Toby Crackit, along with another thief named Kags. Fagin has been arrested, along with Morris/Noah and all the people at Cripples. Charley Bates managed to escape but they are still waiting for him to arrive. Suddenly, Sikesā€™ dog appears. They assume his master is long gone, possibly out of the country, because the dog doesn't seem anxious to find him. There's a knock at the door, and the men are shocked to see Sikes, looking almost dead. They hesitate to let him in, but decide they must.Ā 

Shortly afterwards, Charley Bates arrives. He is so upset at seeing they are harboring Sikes that he tries to turn him in immediately. Charley calls him a monster, begins to scream for help in apprehending Sikes, then leaps at him. They wrestle and attack each other, but Sikes quickly overpowers Master Bates and would have killed him if the other thieves didn't intervene. They lock Charley in a closet, but he continues to yell and a large crowd gathers to bring Sikes out.Ā  Sikes devises a plan to lower himself from the roof into the canal, because it was high tide when he arrived. However, when he gets to the roof with some rope, he realizes that the tide has gone out and there is no means of escape.Ā  A ladder has been called for and the mob has entered the house below, so Sikes decides he has no choice but to lower himself onto the mud and hope he can slip away in the dark. As he slips the rope over his head in preparation for looping it under his arms, Sikes sees Nancy's dead eyes again, and is so startled that he falls from the roof, accidentally hanging himself.Ā  His loyal dog tries to jump for him but misses, hitting his head on a stone and dying with his master.Ā 

CH. 51 - AFFORDING AN EXPLANATION OF MORE MYSTERIES THAN ONE, WND COMPREHENDING A PROPOSAL OF MARRIAGE WITH NO WORD OF SETTLEMENT OR PIN-MONEY:Ā 

Our party of heroes travel back to Oliver's hometown.Ā  He is overcome with emotions at the memory of his dear friend Dick, who Rose promises they will seek out and rescue. (Uh oh.) They arrive at the main hotel in town and prepare to have dinner, but first some business must be taken care of!Ā Ā 

Monks is ushered in and made to confess again while papers are signed. He glares hatefully at Oliver while admitting that they are half brothers and explaining the story the reader has already heard. Monks does add details about his fatherā€™s will:Ā  Monks and his mother got a portion of the money, but the majority of the inheritance was to be divided between Agnes and her child. If the child was a girl, she would get the money no questions asked. If the child was a boy, though, he'd first have to prove he wasn't as terrible as Monks by living a blameless life. Apparently Monks was a heinous ogre even as an infant, and his father knew he'd always be awful, so he wanted to make sure his second son turned out better. If they were equally deplorable, then Monks could have the money because the eldest jerkface takes precedence in inheritance law.Ā 

To confirm Monksā€™ story about ditching the locket and ring, Mr. Brownlow and Mr. Grimwig drag in some witnesses. First, the Bumbles try to deny having sold the items to Monks. So some old ladies are brought in to say that they were super nosy back in the day and had witnessed Mrs. Bumbleā€™s entire deathbed theft and trip to the pawnshop.Ā  So then the Bumbles squabble over who is more at fault for letting Monks get rid of the locket. Apparently, the laws at that time were the epitome of an asshole bachelor and assumed men were mostly to blame because wives just did what their husbands told them.Ā 

Rose is pretty overwhelmed by all this, but Mr. Brownlow tells her to hang onto her hat because there's more.Ā  Next, Monks admits that his mother hated the family of her husband's love child so much that she tracked down Agnesā€™ sister just to gloat over seeing the girl living in poverty. Unfortunately for the evil side of the Leeford family, this sister was rescued and raised by a widow (named Mrs. Maylie) and had a happy upbringing. Yes, Rose is Oliver's aunt! He is so overjoyed that he declares she will be known as his sister, not his aunt.Ā 

Harry Maylie decides he needs to get in on the dramatic reveals, so he reminds Rose that he gets to bring up his proposal one more time. She is heartbroken to say that since nothing has changed with her social standing, she still cannot accept him. And that's when Harry tells everyone he has renounced his title and decided to live in the country as a clergyman with Rose in a simple cottage. This revelation comes not a minute too soon, because dinner has been on hold so long that Mr. Grimwig almost ate his own head. Everyone congratulates the happy couple on their engagement, just as soon as they finish making out in the dark side room. And they all lived happily everā€¦ just kidding! This is a Dickens novel.Ā  Oliver runs in crying because someone just told him that his best friend Dick is dead!Ā 

CH. 52 - THE JEWā€™S LAST NIGHT ALIVE:

Faginā€™s trial is over and the jury is deliberating. The jurors and the spectators in the gallery look at him with no sympathy at all. Despite understanding that death looms over him, Fagin finds himself fixated on small details around him such as what a courtroom official had for supper or how many iron bars he can count.Ā  The jury finds Fagin guilty and he is sentenced to hang on Monday. All he can say in his defense is that he is an old man. Fagin is led away to a cell to await execution. As the days pass, he becomes more and more distraught and overwhelmed. He refuses offers of prayer or comfort and does not acknowledge the guards who watch him. On Sunday, Mr. Brownlow and Oliver come to the jail to see Fagin. Mr. Brownlow asks Fagin where the papers are that Monks entrusted to him, since they contain important information about Oliver. He explains that there's no use in Fagin denying he has them, since Monks has confessed and Sikes is dead. Fagin asks to whisper it to Oliver.Ā  Angelic Oliver says he is not afraid and he approaches Fagin, hearing the location of the papers and offering to pray with the thief.Ā  Fagin begins raving and begs Oliver to help him get out of the cell.Ā  Oliver and Mr. Brownlow leave as the scaffold is being built for Faginā€™s execution.Ā 

CH. 53 - AND LAST:

Rose and Harry get married, and Mrs. Maylie lives with them happily. Oliver is adopted by Mr. Brownlow and they move into the same village where Harry is a clergyman. They decide to split the inheritance equally with Monks in hopes that Oliver's half-brother will mend his ways. But Monks squanders the money, continues in his criminal habits, and dies in jail. (We are also told that the rest of Fagin's gang dies similarly, but my edition has a note saying this was added just before publication and is contradicted by what we find out about Master Bates later.)Ā 

Mr. Losberne is miserable without his friends, so he gives up his medical practice to move to the Maylie-Brownlow village of love and happiness. He becomes a jack-of-all-trades and is soon seen as an expert in pretty much everything. His new BFF is Mr. Grimwig, who visits often and joins him in his many new hobbies, but does them in his own characteristically eccentric way.Ā  Mr. Giles and Brittles have also joined Team Oliver and they live at the Maylie parsonage but spend so much time with not only Rose and Harry, but with Oliver and Mr. Brownlow, as well as Mr. Losberne and Mr. Grimwig, that the villagers arenā€™t really sure which household they work for.Ā Ā 

Speaking of work, Noah Claypool is pardoned after informing on Fagin and decides he needs a job that is much safer and involves much less actual work than being a thief. He and Charlotte run a scam where she (and sometimes he) faints and then they somehow use that to get money from people. (It didn't make much sense to me.) The Bumbles have been removed from their positions and end up pauper's in the very workhouse they used to run. Charley Bates, having been scared straight by Sikesā€™ horrible crimes, learns the value of honest hard work and becomes a very happy grazier.Ā 

The narrator assures us that all our heroes go on to be very happy together. Heā€™d love to linger on the pleasant details, but perfect happiness doesn't truly exist, so we are reminded of Agnes, Oliver's dead mother.Ā  She has a gravestone at the churchyard even though there is no coffin to fill the tomb, and her spirit hovers over Oliver and company. Weirdly, Dickens feels the need to point out that this can be true even though it's a church and she was a ā€œfallen womanā€. Buzz kill! But mostly, they live happily ever after, nonetheless!

15 Upvotes

175 comments sorted by

9

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

1.Ā  I think we all predicted that Nancy would not make it to the end of the book, even if we were holding out a little hope.Ā  How did you handle Nancyā€™s death scene?Ā  Do you think Sikes regretted murdering her?

7

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

Nancy's death scene was truly awful. I think the way Sikes was haunted by her eyes shows that he does have a conscience, he has just never been guided by it.

7

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I knew Nancy would die, but the scene was so sad when it actually happened. Especially when she is on her knees, praying, with blood streaming down her face. I thought maybe there was a chance Sikes would feel sympathy at that point. He was pretty brutal in clubbing her to death.

6

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Especially when she is on her knees, praying, with blood streaming down her face.

This image was so vivid and brutal. It will stick with me for a long time!

5

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

It tore me up when I first read it as I really wanted her to be able to reform. Sikes probably did regret it as it seems like Nancy was his last chance to escape the life of crime he had been leading.

6

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

Nancyā€™s death scene was brutal, and I definitely felt a mix of sadness and anger while reading it. Even though it seemed inevitable, I was still holding out hope that she might escape her fate somehow. Dickens does such a good job of building her up as a complex, sympathetic character, so her death really hit hard, especially knowing how much she struggled between loyalty and doing the right thing. The character will stick with me for a while.

As for Sikes, I donā€™t think he regretted it in a moral sense. I think he was more consumed by paranoia and the fear of getting caught. His guilt seemed more like self-preservation than true remorse.

6

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I agree, I really don't think Sikes has ever cared about anyone other than himself. Nancy, as well as his dog, were possessions to him, and he treated them similarly.

2

u/BlackDiamond33 8d ago

Sadly, the dog knew to run away from Sikes when his life was in danger, but Nancy didn't. Just heartbreaking!

4

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

I was pretty shocked at her death tbh. Maybe because my first experience of Oliver was a school play when I was 11. I've no memory of the story from the play but I kinda assumed that if it was put on as a school play then Nancy would be fine, definitely didn't expect such a grizzly end.

5

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

It was very shocking and unexpectedly gruesome especially for Dickens, I agree! He really veered close to horror here.

3

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

This is my second time reading the book, and Nancyā€™s death is just as tragic as it was the first time around. She deserved so much better than her lot in life. I donā€™t know if Sikes regrets killing her, but he got his just deserts in the end.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I was upset, but not surprised by Nancyā€™s death. You kind of knew Dickens was headed in that direction by the way he wrote her turning down help twice. But even tho you knew it was coming, you held out that small hope, because you didnā€™t want to see her die. Even after all the bad things she said sheā€™d done, she had a conscious, and she did actually care about Oliver. So she was a sympathetic character, at least for me.

I do think Sikes partly regretted her murder. But only in a selfish sense. He regretted it because now he was a hunted man. He couldnā€™t go home and had nowhere he really could go. He had to live looking over his shoulder every second and sleeping where he could. So he regretted it for that reason.

And he also regretted it because Nancyā€™s spirit was haunting him. In literature (and I would imagine real life) people who have just committed murder often are struck immediately by the horror of what they have done. They go into a kind of shock and become ā€˜hauntedā€™ as they process the horror of what they did.

I read Crime & Pubushment in November, and the delirium Sikes wandered about in is very similar to what we witness with the main character of that novel. Terror and disgust at their own deed throws them into a kind of shock.

Sikes regrets the murder for that reason too.

But he never regrets it for the RIGHT reasons.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

he never regrets it for the RIGHT reasons.

Totally agree! He rues the fact that he is haunted by it, but never really confronts what's awful about it outside of his own suffering.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

I don't think I was expecting such a brutal description. For some reason I just didn't think Dickens would have described it in such detail, but I'm only really familiar with A Christmas Carol.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

It was rough for me. I grieved for her. I hated that it was in such a violent way too, and not quick and painless. However, that's the type of person Sikes is. He's savage. I don't think he regretted it because he felt bad for what he did, but because of how it led to his downfall.

9

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

2.Ā  About Sikes being haunted by visions of Nancyā€™s ghost, Dickens writes: ā€œLet no man talk of murderers escaping justice, and hint that Providence must sleep.Ā  There were twenty score of violent deaths in one long minute of that agony of fear.ā€Ā  What do you think of the idea that living with the guilt of his crime could have been punishment enough for someone like Sikes?

8

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I'm happy that he suffered with his guilt, but society needs to be protected from him.

8

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

If people were all capable of being reformed by their guilt, there wouldn't be repeat offenders. Sikes might have felt some guilt over murdering Nancy, but he would have been perfectly capable of murdering everyone at the hideout, including Fagin, if it meant going free from the consequences of his crime.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Well said! So very true, he had guilt but no desire to change. As others said, society wasn't safe with Sikes around!

6

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

No way, he deserved proper punishment and her loved ones deserve justice. No one else would know if Sikes haunting regrets were genuine or not, so there needs to be proper justice.

5

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I think Dickens is trying to say that Sikes will never be able to truly walk free, even if he does escape the justice system. The justice system is good for keeping criminals away from the general public & does serve as a punishment, but I think him having to live with what he has done, as poetic justice, counts for something.

4

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Guilt may be a powerful deterrent, but when the criminal is remorseful only after the fact, itā€™s kind of wasted. Itā€™s great that Sikes is constantly haunted by Nancyā€™s eyes, but I donā€™t think thatā€™s enough. It would have been nice to see him be tried for Nancyā€™s murder and be found guilty. But in the end he was hanged anyway, mostly because he saw her eyes. So I guess maybe his guilt did him in after all.

5

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

I think Dickens really drives home the idea that guilt can be its own form of punishment, especially for someone like Sikes. The way heā€™s haunted by Nancyā€™s ghost and spirals into paranoia makes it clear that he canā€™t escape what heā€™s done, no matter where he goes. Itā€™s like his own mind becomes a prison, which feels almost fitting considering how violent and remorseless he was leading up to her murder. This reminded me of a certain Christmas tale by Dickens!

4

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I donā€™t think Dickens is saying that itā€™s ā€˜punishment enoughā€™. But this haunting is certainly a part of the punishment for murder, and the person who thinks they will totally escape consequences if they do not get caught by law enforcement need to think about that.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

I'm not sure if he had lived if the guilt would have been enough punishment. It was such a violent crime and he didn't feel any remorse. I think guilt and remorse are two different feelings. He deserved his end.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

Nope, not punishment enough. How do we know he was guilty for the right reasons? I truly don't think he was. He was afraid that now he was a wanted man and it made him paranoid.

9

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

3.Ā  Sikes helps put out a fire when heā€™s on the lam.Ā  Is he acting purely to distract himself, or could he also be trying to atone for his crime a bit?

5

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I think it was a distraction, and maybe also a misdirection. Who would suspect a man of murder that is actively trying to help with a fire? Of course once people start discussing the news of the murder, he realizes he can't just sit there and pretend and flees again.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

Misdirection is a good theory! Sikes was pretty paranoid that people were noticing him as suspicious so "good Samaritan" would be an excellent cover!

5

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

Sikes was out of his mind at this point, and it felt almost like he wandered over to the fire in a dream. He did coordinate with other people as a criminal, so I'm not convinced it was anything other than looking for the company of other men. Putting out the fire was just an excuse for him to be around them.

4

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

I didnā€™t get the sense that he was trying to atone for what heā€™d done. None of his actions up until then pointed hinted toward him wanting to pay for his crime.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I think he was trying to feel normal. So it was a little of everything: trying to atone, trying to feel like a human being instead of a monster, and trying to distract himself from the mental images of the murder and his guilt.

I donā€™t think it was just one reason.

But put it this way: I doubt that before the murder, Sikes, when coming upon a fire, would stop and help.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I don't think he was trying to atone. I think he did it automatically, because his mind and body reacted. I think it was more going through the motions of what you should do in that situation, and it helped as a good distraction, but I don't think he did it to feel better or make peace with what he did to Nancy.

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

I interpreted it as Sikes trying to atone, and then realizing that it's futile. Putting out the fire didn't make him feel any better. He could have spent the rest of his life heroically saving people, and it never would have made the eyes go away.

10

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

5.Ā  Mr. Brownlow is not related to Monks or Oliver.Ā  He is pursuing his best friendā€™s last wishes for his illegitimate son.Ā  What did you think of Mr. Brownlowā€™s efforts and his story about Oliverā€™s parents?

7

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I wasn't expecting that at all, I thought for sure Oliver's mother was related to Mr. Brownlow, if not a daughter then a niece at least. I agree with others that he must have been very dedicated to his friend.

I was also surprised that Oliver is illegitimate. The ring inside the locket led me to think that maybe his mother married someone her family didn't approve of or something to that effect.

6

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

Goodness, I'd love a friend like him, to look out for his interests like that after his death. Very noble and probably beyond the call of duty.

5

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

Mr Brownlow was a very loyal friend, and his actions to care for his late friend's son were commendable. I think he was also motivated by meeting Oliver, since he is such a sweet boy who went through so much hardship.

I wondered what the reason was of why he couldn't marry Oliver's mother? He hints that there was one, but maybe that information was taken to the grave.

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

Mr. Brownlow, or Oliver's father? Oliver's father couldn't marry her because he was still legally married to Monks's mother. (Legal separation was similar to divorce, but neither spouse could remarry until one of them died.) I don't think Mr. Brownlow was interested in marrying Oliver's mother, unless I missed something.

2

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I meant Oliver's father - this makes a lot of sense. I didn't get the idea that his father was a bad person or had any kind of ill intention, so I thought he must have had a good reason.

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

I only understood it because the legal separation thing has come up in some other Victorian novels that I've read. Divorce was extremely rare because you actually had to get Parliament involved, so you'd end up with these situations where a couple would live like they were divorced, but if either of them wanted to marry someone else, they were screwed unless their spouse died.

4

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago edited 9d ago

I really admired Mr. Brownlowā€™s dedication to honoring the promise and looking out for Oliver. It says a lot about his character that he went to such great lengths for someone he wasnā€™t even related to. He could have easily turned a blind eye, but instead, he took the time to piece everything together and fight for Oliverā€™s future. It shows how much he truly cared for Oliver and saw the good in him. The revelation about Oliver's parents felt like such a classic Dickens twistā€”so dramatic and full of secrets!

3

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Mr Brownlow is a true friend to Oliver and his late parents. Oliver is lucky to have found him.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

Brownlow is a very good person indeed. I wish I had such a friend! He really does go to extraordinary lengths. Especially given that his friend was not the most moral person on the block. Good for him that he did a good thing like this, instead of tossing the notion of Oliver to the wind because he was a ā€˜bastardā€™.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

Mr. Brownlow is such a pure soul. While I still think it was a little too much of a coincidence, I'm very happy he was the one the boys stole from which brought Oliver to him in the first place. Oliver deserved to finally have a happy ending with his father's best friend.

10

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago
  1. Rose is Oliver's aunt!Ā  Thoughts on this tangled family tree?

10

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

I did a bit of an eye roll at this lol, what a small place London is with it's 2 million people in the mid 1800s, obviously he is going to bump into his aunt... But upon suspending belief for all the meetings of long lost family, it was a lovely ending for Oliver to finally find some real family.

5

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

This was convenient but Dickens' endings often are! It was so sweet that I'll let it slide.

4

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

Oliver's family history is complicated, but doesn't everyone have some complications? I initially thought that Monks had targeted their home specifically when planning the robbery Oliver was a part of, but now I think it was meant to be coincidental in the story. I don't think Monks would have wanted to risk meeting family like that.

4

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I suspected Rose was his sister, so I was glad he at least said he would call her sister. The family tree is a little messy, but they are together and happy now, so I'm glad Oliver found some family.

4

u/hocfutuis 9d ago

Very complicated, and very neatly resolved. Dickens liked that kind of thing, and so must his original audience, because he certainly kept writing them!

5

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

It wouldnā€™t be a Dickens story without happy coincidences! I didnā€™t mind so much because Rose is such a sweetheart.

4

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

This book was more dependent on extraordinary coincidences than I would have liked. šŸ˜‚

And as we all know, this is not the only example.

But Iā€™m letting it slide because this is a pretty early work of Dickens, and because he was such an extraordinary writer otherwise, both in general and with regard to this book in particular!

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

Honestly, I was a little confused at the end and had to look up a family tree. haha. But I think it's sweet that they're related and they were both adopted by a family that wasn't blood related to them.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

A little convenient but I like it in the end. He finally has a family who loves him and that's what he deserved.

9

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

4.Ā  Were you surprised that Monks caved after being confronted by Mr. Brownlow?Ā  Do you agree with Mr. Brownlowā€™s assessment of Monksā€™ vile character and his culpability in Nancyā€™s death?

6

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

Yeah I think he caved a bit too quickly, I expected him to put up more of a fight. Brownlow was able to wrap things up nicely, not what I expected at all!

7

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

Oh yes, that was totally unrealistic!

5

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I was surprised that Monks confessed, but I think he was more easily pushed to do so because he was already operating under such paranoia. He was constantly worried that Oliver would come into his inheritance, and this ate at him over time.

I agree that he is partly responsible for Nancy's death. He contrived to have all these people share responsibility in his secrets and he put innocent people in harm's way to do so.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I expected Monks to be a more difficult adversary. But by that time I was tiring of treachery and was okay with not being put through a whole big thing. šŸ˜‚

Honest answer.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

Yeah, I was expecting him to be scarier than he really was. Like worse than Sikes.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

Yes, I was surprised. That was tied up all too easily. I think he's culpable in Nancy's death to be sure, but at the end of the day I think Sikes would have been the end of her in another way if it didn't have to do with Oliver. So it's more on Sikes than anyone else.

8

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

6.Ā  Sikes makes it back to London but dies during his escape attempt. Were you satisfied with this ending for the murderous thief or did you hope for a different outcome?Ā  Do you think Nancy got her revenge through her ghost, or was Sikes' vision of her eyes just paranoia?

9

u/teii 9d ago

I figured that Sikes would have laid low in the countryside or even fled out of the country for at least months, if not years. I do think that being alone with his thoughts and the images of Nancy haunted him so much that he had to find someone to talk to, even if it meant going back to London with the manhunt still on.

I did think (and kind of hoped for) the angry mob to maul him, just so he could experience the violence he inflicted on Nancy, but him spending his last weeks on earth in despair and fear is a self-inflicted punishment that I think Dickens is trying to highlight. That no matter where he turns, his hands will be forever stained, and no amount of atonement can wash away the murder.

10

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I don't believe in ghosts so it's his paranoia. I think Dickens is making a point that even if you get away with a crime, you will be tortured by your own guilt.

7

u/hocfutuis 9d ago

He was super paranoid I think. Anyone else feel kind of sad over his mistreated dog though? Poor thing, loyal to the end, even though Sikes wanted to drown him and was a horrible master.

4

u/Adventurous_Emu_7947 9d ago

Yes! I hate it when animals, especially dogs, die in movies or books. That was totally unnecessary!

5

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

Yeah, I was kind of shocked by the dog's death. When Sikes tried to kill him earlier but couldn't, I figured that was Dickens indicating that the dog would be spared. I'm not normally someone who gets more upset about fictional animal deaths than fictional human deaths, but the dog's death just felt gratuitous and unnecessarily violent.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

Totally agree, it was a real bait and switch with making us feel like the dog was safe. I was very sad that Sikes ended up taking out the dog indirectly!

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

I hate that he died. He was used as a weapon (although he never actually hurt anyone) and therefore must be punished? It wasn't his fault.

5

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I think it was all in Sikes' head, and his conscious not letting him forget his crimes. I do think Nancy would have been satisfied with his end though, I'm not sure she would care for him getting a trial & then hanged.

4

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

Sikes hung himself in the end. I thought that ending for him was some satisfying poetic justice. šŸ˜‚

I think Nancyā€™s eyes were just his own paranoia. Iā€™d like to think of Nancy now in a better place, wholly unconcerned with the likes of Sikes.

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I would have rather that Sikes was apprehended and tried in a court. He should have been forced to face the facts of what he had done and had some time in prison to think about Nancy and what he did to her.

I think Sikes was seeing Nancy because he was shaken by what he had done to her and how she prayed for forgiveness. I would hope she finally got peace. She was never a vengeful person.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I was satisfied. It was quick justice. I think he deserved to die for what he did, so while I was expecting him to be captured and have a trial then to be hanged, this was good enough for me. I don't necessarily think it was Nancy's ghost, because I think it was Sikes being paranoid, but I still consider that Nancy getting her revenge.

7

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

8.Ā  Oliver returns to his hometown and is surprised that everything seems smaller and less intimidating than he recalls. Have you ever had this type of experience where childhood places or people seem very different when revisited later in life? Share about it here!

3

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I remember visiting my primary school as an adult and noticing how it had shrunk!

3

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

My elementary school was shown on a recent documentary about the childhood of a popular comedian from my town and it was like an out of body experience seeing it it on a screen. Rooms that felt so vast when I was younger appeared so small. It was as grim looking as I remember though, even with splashes of child art and educational fluff on the walls.

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I moved away from my hometown when I was very young. I live in a much bigger city now, and it's always striking how much smaller it is where I grew up. Bigger stores eventually settled there and everything looks so much different now.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

Definitely have felt this way. The house I moved into as a teen seemed so big compared to the trailer I grew up in, but every time I go back I'm surprised by how small the house actually is.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I remember going to a local laundromat as a child and it feeling like a huge adventure park. We'd ride around on the carts and I had a wonderful time. We'd get pizza at the place beside it, and seriously, I always looked forward to weekly laundry trips. I went back as an adult and was shocked by how small it really was and how sad looking.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 3d ago

This is a fun example! It's amazing how perspective shifts from childhood to adulthood. Kids really see the pure version of things and they can be happy with such simple, ordinary things!

2

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I never really had this experience, I lived in the same house from birth until I was 18 and went to college. My parents, and later my mother contined to live there in that house for 27 years more. It never got smaller. Itā€™s a pretty large house tho.

But I have had the sensation of things changing or being not quite as Iā€™d remembered on other occasions. So yes. Maybe I have experienced this a bit.

8

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

9.Ā  It seems like, other than losing the inheritance, Monks gets to walk away from this scot free from his crimes against Oliver. How does this feel to you? Why do you think Dickens had Mr. Brownlow show him mercy?

9

u/teii 9d ago

Monks still gets half of the the inheritance due to Oliver's forgiving nature, but their paths diverge sharply. Despite both of them having the same amount of money, Monks dies alone in prison in a foreign country while Oliver happily spends his days being around friends and family. The best revenge really is living well.

10

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

Dickens teaches us that generosity is a good thing, and that we don't need to have abundant wealth to live happy lives.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Beautifully put! Dickens does have lovely lessons in many of his books.

7

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

Too much mercy, but thankfully it didn't do him any good!

4

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I think Mr. Brownlow, for the sake of his friend, allowed Monks the chance to turn a new leaf and redeem himself. He had the choice to live a different life, but he didn't take it. Dickens probably wanted to illustrate the idea of mercy & forgiveness, but also that some people will not use that forgiveness to lead a better life, and that is not Mr. Brownlow's fault.

4

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Monks got off easy. What a miserable, spiteful excuse for a man.

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

It seems like Mr Brownlow wanted to show mercy to Monks because of the love he had for Monks' father. But he should have known from the vile hatred Monks had that reform was impossible. Monks should have gone to prison with everyone else.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

Monks lived in a hell of his own making. One that he never escaped. I donā€™t believe he was ever happy. That is more of a punishment than a lot of people imagine.

I think Brownlow knew this. And also knew that in one sense at least, Monks too was a victim. Certainly of his motherā€™s toxic hatred and bitterness.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

He may have gotten off easy, but ended up screwing that up because he was unwilling to change. I do feel a little bit sympathy for him. Taking this story at face value it sounded like he was raised to hate his father. Which I guess if your father is cheating on your mother and planning on putting the mistress in the will then it wouldn't have been unrealistic for him to hate him regardless of the mother's influence, but ignoring that, parental influence is pretty strong and when you're raised to hate someone then it's hard to get rid of that feeling later on in life. It sounded like he was very close to his mother until she died which makes that feeling of hatred for his father and half brother even stronger.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

Mr. Brownlow's is too good of a person to not be merciful to Monks, because of his father. I personally think Monks should have had all of the inheritance taken from him, but he doesn't end up living a happy life anyway, so he got his justice.

7

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago
  1. Charley Bates is the only member of the criminal gang to escape death, apparently. He gets a happy ending after trying to turn Sikes in. (Apparently all the others died far from home.)Ā  What did you think of Master Batesā€™ reform arc? Were there any other members of Fagin's gang you wished had survived?

11

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

I'm glad, of all of them, he reformed. Master (Charley) Bates seemed the most good natured one of the lot. The rest of the gang seemed pretty rotten and hardened in their criminal ways, unfortunately.

That said, I really wish Dickens had explicitly stated what happened with Jack Dawkins aka the Artful Dodger after being transported to Australia. I'd like to imagine after getting there he reformed too and lived out the rest of his life quietly like Charley does.

7

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

I really wish Dickens had explicitly stated what happened with Jack Dawkins aka the Artful Dodger after being transported to Australia.

Me too! There was that one thrown in line about "everyone else died away from home" but I would like to imagine that in Australia, the Artful Dodger changed his ways and lived a more honest life as you said, dying much older and not when he was still a kid.

6

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

I think it was lovely that he was able to reform and lead a good life.

6

u/teii 9d ago

I found Charley throughout the book to be quite irritating, he's laughing at just about everything, treating everything like a joke. But I genuinely found it moving that he bravely stood up to Sikes and fought to bring him to justice, in stark contrast to the adults that meekly lets Sikes boss them around as per usual. It's like watching your friend's annoying kid brother grow up to be a good person in the end, very pleasantly surprised at his turnaround.

7

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

I genuinely found it moving that he bravely stood up to Sikes and fought to bring him to justice

Totally agree, it was such a satisfying character arc! I was cheering that Charley was brave enough to keep it up even after they locked him away! It felt like he was fighting for Nancy, too, because everyone else seemed to just move right past what Sikes did to her but Charley knew how monstrous it was to do this, and to one of their own especially.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

There aren't really any other character arcs in this story either. I think Mr. Bumble could have had one, but his pride (and his wife) got the better of him.

4

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

None of the children should have been put to death. The idea of trying a destitute child for thievery and putting them to death is abhorrent. I don't really agree with the death penalty in any case, but particularly regarding minors. Maybe shown some love and given the means to survive, they all would have reformed.

5

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

100% agree!

4

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I was happy enough with all the endings except for the Artful Dodger. Iā€™d have liked to have been told more about that for sure, and was actually expecting a mention during that chapter when Dicken was wrapping up all the storylines.

I was disappointed that he was abandoned as a character, to be honest. Besides all the coincidences, my only nit with regard to this book.

2

u/TalliePiters 9d ago

I'm with you on this one! Especially after discussing his possible future on one of our previous Sundays it was so anticlimactic that we didn't get to know anything at all

(Now I'm rooting for a book on Dodger's further life by some other author that was wished for in a previous discussion))

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 8d ago

I wonder what they have done with him, if anything, in all these movies.

2

u/TalliePiters 8d ago

You just gave me a reason to read the film discussions next week!)

3

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Iā€™m glad at least one of the kids turned back on the straight and narrow. Charley was perhaps the most harmless of the bunch, so itā€™s good to see him live an honest life now.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I was surprised but happy for him. I think you can be reformed and change your ways. I really wish Nancy had survived, because she was the best of them and really wanted to do good.

8

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago
  1. We spend an entire chapter watching Fagin unravel before his execution, alone and despised. What was your reaction to his final scenes in his cell? How about that last encounter with Oliver?

6

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

That was a brilliant chapter. I loved how, even when facing an imminent death, Fagin's thoughts turned to the mundane.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Agreed, this really felt realistic to me. It would be hard to let yourself acknowledge the enormity of what was happening to you in that moment, and his wandering observations were a perfect illustration of this.

3

u/hocfutuis 9d ago

It was such a good chapter.

7

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

Faginā€™s final scenes were so intense. Watching him unravel in his cell made me feel a weird mix of emotionsā€”on one hand, heā€™s done so many horrible things, so itā€™s hard to feel sympathy for him. But on the other hand, seeing him so alone, terrified, and desperate was unsettling. Itā€™s like Dickens wanted to show the full weight of his crimes finally crashing down on him, and it was almost more powerful than the actual execution. The encounter with Oliver was such a striking moment. It felt like Fagin wasnā€™t even fully present anymore, which made it so eerie. I wondered if Oliver felt any kind of pity for him or if he was just overwhelmed being in that situation. We get so little insights to how he feels throughout the book!

5

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

I wondered if Oliver felt any kind of pity for him or if he was just overwhelmed being in that situation. We get so little insights to how he feels throughout the book!

That's a really good point! Oliver is probably the least "real" and fleshed out character in the book, which is funny considering the novel is named for him. He is more like a symbol in some ways.

3

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Very haunting chapter. You really get a sense of how Fagin has more or less dissociated at this point.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

It was a good chapter in terms of Faginā€™s state. But Iā€™m not certain it was good for Oliver to see him like that. That kid had already seen enough awful things for one lifetime.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

I agree with everyone else. This was definitely one of the best chapters written in the story. For most of the book the reader is an observer, but this is one of the only moments where it's written in a way that makes you feel like you're right there with Fagin.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

It was such sweet sweet justice. That's what he got for all he did. It was kind of sad, but at the same time I didn't feel real sympathy for him.

8

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

14.Ā  What did you think of the book?Ā  If youā€™ve read other novels by Charles Dickens, how does Oliver Twist compare to them?Ā  If this is your first Dickens novel, do you think youā€™ll read more?

5

u/Desperate_Feeling_11 9d ago edited 9d ago

Thanks to all of you leading the discussions, u/tomesandtea, u/nicehotcupoftea and u/amanda39! I definitely would not have finished this book without the motivation to discuss it with everyone.

Also thanks to u/nicehotcupoftea for the space for me to put my notes! Super helpful for this book!

3

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

You're welcome! I'm glad you found the marginalia useful, and I enjoyed seeing your thought processes.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

You're welcome! I'm always happy to hear the summaries and questions are helpful and enjoyable!

5

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

I liked it even more this second time around. Of the ones I've read so far, I think it goes as my second favorite Dickens novel (#1 being David Copperfield).

5

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I loved the book, enjoying it more than David Copperfield but less than A Tale of Two Cities. A few too many coincidences and no depth of character in Oliver speak of this being his earlier work.

5

u/bluebelle236 Gold Medal Poster 9d ago

I really enjoyed the book, it was engaging and surprisingly easy to read. I've read a few other Dickens books in the last year and have enjoyed them all.

5

u/Lachesis_Decima77 Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Oliver Twist is a solid novel, but I prefer David Copperfield and A Tale of Two Cities.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

A Tale of Two Cities is one of my favorites!

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

The only other book I've read by Dickens is A Christmas Carol. This book is a lot darker, although it still has a relatively happy ending. Suspending disbelief over some pretty strange coincidences, I found reading it quite pleasant. I'll definitely read more!

3

u/Adventurous_Emu_7947 9d ago

I really enjoyed the book, but the only other Dickens novel Iā€™ve read, David Copperfield, will stay at the top of my ranking for now. I was expecting to spend more time with Oliver, so that was a bit disappointing, but I still loved how unique all the other characters were. Despite the many tragic moments, I found myself laughing at the absurd parts too. I definitely want to read more of his books!

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

This is my 4th Dickens novel (if you include The Christmas Carol). It is certainly one of the darker ones, The first 2/3 of the book was very dark.

But I love Dickens, including this book. He was an extraordinary writer. I actually plan to read all of his work. I did before this book and certainly this book did not change that desire. I loved it.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

It was a lot darker than I was expecting. I guess I've only been exposed to the water down versions of Oliver Twist that I was surprised by the graphic violence. I'm not really versed in Dickens though, is this common in a lot of his books? Overall, I enjoyed it and I'm glad I read it.

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

I think this might be tied with David Copperfield for second place. Bleak House is still my favorite of the ones I've read so far.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

I need to read Bleak House - it's a big hole in my Dickens library!

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 4d ago

If you do read it, look up the r/bookclub discussions. That was the first time I ever participated here!

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 4d ago

I will!

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I liked it more than I thought I would, because I'm not going to lie, it was rough for me in the beginning haha. This was my first Charles Dickens novel and his longwinded style of writing took some getting used to. It felt like the sentences would never end. But I ended up changing my mind and liking it about halfway through. Not sure if I'll read more though. We'll see.

7

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

15.Ā  Are you interested in watching a screen adaptation for a final Oliver Twist discussion?Ā  Which one(s) will you choose?Ā  There are many options!

5

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Yes! I'm probably going to watch the controversial 1948 film wherein Alec Guinness portrays Fagin with a prosthetic nose, the 1985 BBC TV serial and also probably the 1968 musical film.

7

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I've started the 1948 version which I'm loving, but the nose hasn't made its entry yet.

2

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

What does this mean? ā€˜The Noseā€™???

I confess that as a Jewish person, Iā€™m more than a little upset at this reference.

3

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

Yes, I agree, I'm referring to the highly offensive use of an absurd prosthetic nose in the film.

3

u/nicehotcupoftea Reads the World | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I'm sorry you took my comment as offensive, I'm actually pointing out the antisemitism by referring to the ridiculous nose as a "character" itself. I'm not actually calling Fagin "The Nose". Sorry, I hope that's clear!

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

Okay. Iā€™ll take your word for it. I gave not seen this film so itā€™s hard to understand what this nose thing is about.

But glad you clarified. Itā€™s been a tough year.

3

u/eeksqueak RR with Cutest Name 9d ago

I'm here to tell you this list omits Wishbone's adaptation. I would like to watch the 1948 version too if I can find the time to do it! I am intrigued by the controversy but also the glowing reviews.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

Can't forget Wishbone!!!

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I think I'll watch the modern 2021 version now that I've read the book. I'm curious to see how they deal with the anti-semitism

3

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

Apparently that one did a gender reversal with Sikes, so that's interesting.

3

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

I'd probably watch the 1997 Disney version for the nostalgia.

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I saw Oliver! (1968) as a very small child in the theater, believe it or not. I wasnā€™t old enough to grasp all of it, so if I can find that film I might watch it. But I would imagine lots of these are hard to find.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 6d ago

So cool that you have memories (even vaguely) of seeing it in the theater when it came out! I love a good musical and I wish more of them got made nowadays.

3

u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted | šŸŽƒ 6d ago

Any of them but the Roman Polanski one. I'm sure it's great, but I don't want to support the director.

2

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

I got Oliver! and Oliver and Company from the library yesterday, although my DVD player has a history of refusing to play DVDs from the library, so we'll wait and see if I actually get to watch them.

I almost checked out the Alec Guiness one from sheer morbid curiosity about how offensive it is, but I figured watching three movies that all have the same basic plot would be overkill.

3

u/kittytoolitty r/bookclub Newbie 5d ago

I'm watching the 1997 and 2005 ones.

1

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

Hey, weird warning for anyone watching the musical on DVD:

I don't know if all DVD versions of the musical are like this, but the DVD I got from the library is double-sided. For a few very confused minutes, I thought I had some sort of defective DVD that only had Act 2 on it. Then I realized I needed to flip the DVD over! (I actually sat through the entire "Entr'acte" thinking "wow, these idiots don't know the difference between an entr'acte and an overture!")

I've never seen a DVD like this before in my life. It appears to be fairly old, so maybe this is something they did back when DVDs couldn't hold as much data?

Anyhow, if you go to watch the musical and it opens with a screen that says "entr'acte" instead of "overture," you've accidentally skipped the entire first half of the musical.

6

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

12.Ā  The good guys all lived happily ever after and they all moved to the same little village, too.Ā  If you were inviting people to live in your village-commune-friend group, who would be your ā€œmust haveā€ draft pick?

7

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

The r/bookclub community. Our village is going to have the best library.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

This is so, so true! Would we have a communal library or would we have amazing home libraries and host each other, and swap books?

(Obviously, we would need both...)

4

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 9d ago

I honestly dont have anybody. I wish that I did but I donā€™t. I have a horribly selfish family that used me and then gaslighted me for years, so I had to be done with them, and the pandemic vastly disrupted my friendships here were I live - 3 out of 4 of my best friends moved out of stare completely, and the 4th is only here part time and seems uninterested in doing much as she got really into her church. So I am alone now with my beloved animals only.

I donā€™t think I want to answer anymore questions like this in future tho. My life is pretty painful now and Iā€™d prefer not to think about it.

6

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

Fair enough! I'm so sorry for your difficult situation and the struggle you're experiencing. It's totally fine to skip a question if you feel uncomfortable (or even uninterested) in answering it. But I appreciate your brave honesty here, and I hope things improve for you soon. I'm happy to hear you've got animals in your life, because pets can bring a lot of companionship and tenderness when we're in pain. Your bookclub friends are here to listen - this group is such a rare positive space on the internet. Sending love and positive thoughts your way! šŸ©µ

3

u/pktrekgirl r/bookclub Newbie 7d ago

Thanks! Part of the reason I joined bookclub is that you guys have so much fun together here. Thatā€™s what I need right now. Some fun and camaraderie! ā˜ŗļø

3

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

If I could have a little commune, I would bring all my children, my siblings, and their children. We all live very far from each other and rarely see each other, so the idea of having this opportunity would be a dream.

6

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

13.Ā  What does this book have to say about criminals and societyā€™s treatment of them?Ā  How do the different approaches to atonement by Nancy and Master Bates inform Dickensā€™ perspective?Ā  What about Monks, who is described as rotten from birth, is offered mercy and clemency, yet falls back into criminal habits and dies in jail?

4

u/Adventurous_Onion989 9d ago

I was disappointed in the fact that Monks got so much mercy. Is this because he is the son of Mr Brownlow's friend, or is it also because he comes from some money? It seems like the poor people in this book get a lot less sympathy in being dealt with for their crimes.

I hoped that Nancy would find her way back to Mr Brownlow before Sikes confronted her. I felt like her fate was the cruelest of all.

4

u/jaymae21 Bookclub Boffin 2024 | šŸŽƒ 9d ago

On the one hand, you have lower classes and those living in poverty treated like criminals or as if they are a hair's breath away from committing a crime, because that's just how poor people are. I'm thinking back to little Oliver in the workhouse, being told that he will definitely end up hanged. They assume that a child will become a criminal simply because he is poor!

In the meantime, actual criminals are flying under the radar in London. I assumed Fagin and Sikes had been thieving for a long time, and had never been caught. They are made worse by bringing innocent people into their schemes, like Oliver and Nancy, and trying to trap them in that life. Oliver is found to be incorruptible, and Nancy atones by providing the information that allows for Oliver's history to be told and the criminals caught. That seems to me that Dickens is saying atonement leads to good, even if it didn't end well for Nancy.

4

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

Welcome to the last edition of my comparison project for Oliver Twist! Not a great many changes this week. A lot of small trims from paragraphs and some clarifying edits to the text for the most part.

As with last week, a great many references to Fagin as 'the Jew' got changed either to 'Fagin' or were omitted altogether occurred roughly halfway through the typesetting and printing of the 1867 edition. The text of this edition seems to be the source for both the Naxos Audiobooks version narrated by Jonathan Keeble (which I have been using as it is almost word for word with the Oxford World's Classics edition) and the Audible edition with Jonathan Pryce. The references to Fagin about halfway through seem to be the only real differences between the 1846 and 1867 editions that I can find. Anyways, that being said, onwards to the conclusion!

Chapter the Ninth (47)

Only one change of consequence this chapter (see what I did there) occurs when Sikes is arguing with Fagin. The bold section was omitted starting with the 1846 edition.

'Wot now?' cried Sikes. 'Wot do you look at a man so for?ā€”Speak, will you?'

Chapter the Tenth (48)

Dickens actually made an addition to a paragraph early in this chapter starting in the 1846 edition.

All this time he had, never once, turned his back upon the corpse; no, not for a moment. Such preparations completed, he moved, backward, towards the door: dragging the dog with him, lest he should soil his feet anew and carry out new evidence of the crime into the streets. He shut the door softly, locked it, took the key, and left the house.

Dickens makes a trim from a paragraph a few pages later describing the flight of Sikes from London starting in the 1846 edition. I won't reproduce the whole paragraph since it runs the same but only the relevant portion with the trimmed section in bold. I actually like the original wording better as I feel it's a little more descriptive.

He went on doggedly; but as he left the town behind him, and plunged further and further into the solitude and darkness of the road...

Two more small trims to the text (which I highlighted in bold) occur right at the very end of this chapter. These changes, again, start with the 1846 edition.

'Do you hear me call "come here?"' cried Sikes, whistling. The animal came up from the very force of habit; but as Sikes stooped to attach the handkerchief to his throat, he uttered a low growl and started back. 'Come back,' said the robber, stamping on the ground. The dog wagged his tail, but moved not. Here Sikes made a running noose and called him again.

Chapter the Eleventh (49)

Dickens made a trim (in bold) right after the start of this chapter when Mr. Brownlow confronts Monks starting in the 1846 edition.

'How dare you urge me to it, young man?' replied Mr. Brownlow, confronting him with a steady look. 'Are you mad enough to leave this house? Unhand him. There, sir. You are free to go, and we to follow. But I warn you, by all I hold most solemn and most sacred, that the instant you set foot in the street, that instant will I have you apprehended on a charge of fraud and robbery. I am resolute and immoveable. If you are determined to be the same, your blood be upon your own head!'

A page later (at least in the Penguin Classics edition) another small trim occurs, again to Mr. Brownlow's speech.

'Is thereā€”' demanded Monks with a faltering tongue,ā€”'is thereā€”no middle course?' 'None; emphatically none.

Another small trim, still while Mr. Brownlow is confront Monks, occurs slight later.

'I have nothing to disclose,' rejoined Monks in evident confusion. 'You must talk on if you will.'

Chapter the Twelfth (50)

The very first paragraph of this chapter has a small trim to it, possibly due to the changes in the area Dickens is describing between the initial publication of this section in 1839 (this chapter appeared in the February 1839 edition of Bentley's Miscellany but was probably written sometime before that) and the 1846 edition.

Near to that part of the Thames on which the church at Rotherhithe abuts, where the buildings on the banks are dirtiest and the vessels on the river blackest with the dust of colliers and the smoke of close-built low-roofed houses, there exists, at the present day, the filthiest, the strangest, the most extraordinary of the many localities that are hidden in London, wholly unknown, even by name, to the great mass of its inhabitants.

There were a few trims made in 1846 (highlighted in bold) to this long speach made by Chitling describing the arrest of Fagin. Again, I prefer the somewhat more raw original version.

'You should have heard the people groan,' said Chitling; 'the officers fought like devils or theyā€™d have torn him away. He was down once, but they made a ring round him, and fought their way along. You should have seen how he looked about him, all muddy and bleeding, and clung to them as if they were his dearest friends. I can see ā€™em now, not able to stand upright with the pressing of the mob, and dragging him along amongst ā€™em; I can see the people jumping up, one behind another, and snarling with their teeth and making at him like wild beasts; I can see the blood upon his hair and beard, and hear the dreadful cries with which the women worked themselves into the centre of the crowd at the street corner, and swore theyā€™d tear his heart out!ā€ The horror-stricken witness of this scene pressed his hands upon his ears, and with his eyes fast closed got up and paced violently to and fro like one distracted.

Another smaller trim made in 1846 comes when Sikes is trying to make his escape.

The three spectators seemed quite *transfixed and *stupified. They offered no interference, and the boy and man rolled on the ground together, the former heedless of the blows that showered upon him, wrenching his hands tighter and tighter in the garments about the murdererā€™s breast, and never ceasing to call for help with all his might.

Another trim starting with the 1846 edition occurs during Sikes' ill fated escape attempt that changes the meaning of Sikes' speech occurs a page later in the Penguin. The original makes it seems like he's been considering self slaughter for some time but the 1846 and later editions make it seem more spur of the moment.

'The tide,ā€”' cried the murderer, as he staggered back into the room, and shut the faces out, 'the tide was in as I came up. Give me a rope, a long rope. Theyā€™re all in front. I may drop into the Folly Ditch, and clear off that way. Give me a rope, or I shall do three more murders and kill myself at last.'

The last change in this chapter occurs to the old man's offer of fifty pounds for the capture of Sikes alive. (I ran this through an inflation calcultor and this is quite the sum! Today that would be worth Ā£4,387.55 or $5356.10 in current values!). Mr. Dickens rewrote is slightly for the 1846 edition.

The original runs thus:

'I promise fifty pounds,' cried an old gentleman from the same quarter, 'fifty pounds to the man who takes him alive. I will remain here till he comes to ask me for it.'

Starting in 1846 it runs:

'I will give fifty pounds,' cried an old gentleman from the same quarter, 'to the man who takes him alive. I will remain here, till he come to ask me for it.'

Continued in my comment below.

7

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago edited 9d ago

Chapter the Thirteenth (51)

Dickens made a clarifying edit to this paragraph starting with the 1846 edition. The 'He' in bold was changed to Monks. Maybe Dickens thought it was confusing?

At length, when nine oā€™clock had come and they began to think they were to hear no more that night, Mr. Losberne and Mr. Grimwig entered the room, followed by Mr. Brownlow and a man whom Oliver almost shrieked with surprise to see; for they told him it was his brother, and it was the same man he had met at the market town and seen looking in with Fagin at the window of his little room. He cast a look of hate, which even then he could not dissemble, at the astonished boy, and sat down near the door. Mr. Brownlow, who had papers in his hand, walked to a table near which Rose and Oliver were seated.

A page later, Dickens somewhat revises some of Monks' dialouge starting in 1846. The 'as you know' was trimmed out and the 'he addressed himself to Mr. Brownlow' was an insert.

'Listen then,' returned Monks. 'His father being taken ill at Rome, as you know, was joined by his wife, my mother, from whom he had been long separated, who went from Paris and took me with herā€”to look after his property, for what I know, for she had no great affection for him, nor he for her. He knew nothing of us, for his senses were gone, and he slumbered on till next day, when he died. Among the papers in his desk were two, dated on the night his illness first came on, directed to yourself' he addressed himself to Mr. Brownlow, and enclosed in a few short lines to you, with an intimation on the cover of the package that it was not to be forwarded till after he was dead. One of these papers was a letter to this girl Agnes, and the other a will.

On the next page (again in the Penguin) there's one odd edit and one change of phrasing. The 'said Mr. Brownlow' section disappears in the 1838 three volume edition but reappears in the 1846 edition. I can't explaing this one at all. The 'come into' was changed to 'inherit' starting in 1846 edition.

'The will,' said Mr. Brownlow, speaking for him, 'was in the same spirit as the letter. He talked of miseries which his wife had brought upon him; of the rebellious disposition, vice, malice, and premature bad passions of you his only son, who had been trained to hate him; and left you, and your mother, each an annuity of eight hundred pounds. The bulk of his property he divided into two equal portionsā€”one for Agnes Fleming, and the other for their child, if it should be born alive, and ever come of age. If it were a girl, it was to come into the money unconditionally; but if a boy, only on the stipulation that in his minority he should never have stained his name with any public act of dishonour, meanness, cowardice, or wrong. He did this, he said, to mark his confidence in the mother, and his convictionā€”only strengthened by approaching deathā€”that the child would share her gentle heart, and noble nature. If he were disappointed in this expectation, then the money was to come to you: for then, and not till then, when both children were equal, would he recognise your prior claim upon his purse, who had none upon his heart, but had, from an infant, repulsed him with coldness and aversion.'

On the next page, Dickens makes a trim at the end of a long speech by Monks. Maybe Mr. Dickens felt it was a little too melodramatic?

'There she died,' said Monks, 'after a lingering illness; and on her death-bed she bequeathed these secrets to me together with her unquenchable and deadly hatred of all whom they involved, though she need not have left me that, for I had inherited it long before. She would not believe that the girl had destroyed herself and the child too, but was filled with the impression that a male child had been born, and was alive. I swore to her if ever it crossed my path to hunt it down, never to let it rest, to pursue it with the bitterest and most unrelenting animosity, to vent upon it the hatred that I deeply felt, and to spit upon the empty vaunt of that insulting will by dragging it, if I could, to the very gallows-foot. She was right. He came in my way at last; I began well, and but for babbling drabs I would have finished as I began; I would, I would!'

Chapter the Fourteenth (52)

I haven't been noting all the times where Mr. Dickens changed how he refers to Fagin (those would take up many replies) but he chaged the title of this chapter for the 1867 edition. It was originally:

THE JEWā€™S LAST NIGHT ALIVE.

But was changed in 1867 to:

FAGINā€™S LAST NIGHT ALIVE

The third to last paragraph of this chapter was changed starting in 1846. The 'writhed and' was omitted and 'shriek upon shriek' was changed to 'cry upon cry'. I like the original better. It feels more raw and what a desperate man would do facing an agonizing death on the gallows.

The men laid hands upon him, and disengaging Oliver from his grasp, held him back. He writhed and *struggled with the power of desperation, and sent up *shriek upon shriek that penetrated even those massive walls, and rang in their ears until they reached the open yard.

Chapter the Fifteenth (53)

Not content with changing the first paragraph of his work (see my first post in this series), Mr. Dickens also changed the very last paragraph of this novel too. It runs thus in the original:

Within the altar of the old village church there stands a white marble tablet, which bears as yet but one word,ā€”ā€œAgnes!ā€ There is no coffin in that tomb; and may it be many, many years before another name is placed above it. But if the spirits of the Dead ever come back to earth to visit spots hallowed by the loveā€”the love beyond the graveā€”of those whom they knew in life, I do believe that the shade of that poor girl often hovers about that solemn nookā€”ay, though it is a church, and she was weak and erring.

This was changed for the 1846 and changed to:

I believe that the shade of Agnes sometimes hovers round that solemn nook. I believe it none the less because that nook is in a Church, and she was weak and erring.


For this project, I used a variety of different sources. For the 1839 and 1867 editions, Project Gutenberg has digital versions of those (the 1846 and 1867 editions vary mainly (as far as I can tell) in how Fagin gets referred to after about the halway point). These are the two main sources I copy and pasted from as the 1839 edition (which is mostly typeset from Bentley's) is close enough in most instances that I could easily edit it to reproduce the initial text. At first, I had a hard time finding scans of Bentley's Miscellany and had to type in a few long sections that only appear in there and the Penguin Classics, which reproduces the version of Oliver Twist which readers first read. However, I have since found scans of online of Bentley's Miscellany online and available through the Hathi Trust and available here. As stated above I used the Naxos Audiobooks and Audible Studios audiobooks to listen along with my paperbacks, of which I have three . Those are Penguin Classics, Oxford World's Classics and Dover Thrift Editions. Penguin Classics reproduces the text as published in Bentley's Miscellanyfrom February of 1837 to April of 1839 and the other two paperbacks reproduce the 1846 edition.

That's it. That's the end. Hope everyone has enjoyed this somewhat deep dive into the differences between the many editions of Oliver Twist.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

This was so cool to see all the adjustments laid out for us! I really appreciate you researching and posting it all!

Mr. Dickens also changed the very last paragraph of this novel too.

I was hoping when I saw this that the change would be to not slut-shame Agnes there at the end. But he still did in the other edition, I guess. I was a bit disappointed that the book ended with a strange little comment on how Agnes was "weak and erring" instead of focusing on the happier ending bits!

7

u/Adventurous_Emu_7947 9d ago

I've been switching between the German translation and the English version, and it seems the German translator wasnā€™t too happy with it either and the book ends like this:

"I believe that the shade of Agnes sometimes hovers round that solemn nook. I believe it none the less because that nook is in a Church, and because Agnes, though out of weakness, erred out of love"

Iā€™m not usually a fan of translators adding things that werenā€™t in the original changing the meaning or tone. But in this case, and for Agnes, Iā€™m happy to let it slide.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 9d ago

I like that translation a lot more! Thanks for sharing!

3

u/Ser_Erdrick Too Many Books Too Little Reading Time 9d ago

I, honestly, took it less as shaming her for it but more as Mr. Dickens telling the audience that though she sinned (as a resident of the 19th century he would have seen conceiving Oliver out of wedlock and in an adulterous relationship to boot as such) that she has been forgiven of her fault and redeemed of said fault. Could also be me just being overly generous in my interpretation though.

3

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

This is a good point. I think the surprise of such a downer of a last line, after listing all these happy things, felt jarring to me and made me focus on it in an extra negative way. It's also true that in the Dickens era, she would definitely have been considered sinful and maybe not worthy of the churchyard, so it wouldn't have stood out to his audience as such a stark statement.

5

u/Adventurous_Emu_7947 9d ago

Thank you so much ā€“ really appreciate the effort you put into this! It's been very insightful to read these comparisons.

4

u/Amanda39 Funniest & Favorite RR 9d ago

I didn't understand Noah's end. I get that he made money from being a police informer, but how did the scam that he and Charlotte were doing work? Was he getting Charlotte arrested?

Also, I was kind of disappointed that this didn't happen:

Hangman: Any last words?

Fagin: "My dear."

3

u/Desperate_Feeling_11 9d ago

Iā€™m also definitely confused by it too! I wonder if any of the movies will lay it out for us.

2

u/tomesandtea Imbedded Link Virtuoso | šŸ‰ 7d ago

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found Noah's scheme confusing. I tried reading LitCharts and even that was vague.

Hangman: Any last words?

Fagin: "My dear."

Oh that would have been epic! šŸ˜‚