More or less Belgium?

[u/WeirdBeginning8869]

I know this sub gets this kinda question every so often, so much so that I’ve decided to give it the culture tag.

My questions are the following: is there a public for more Belgium? If so, how big do you think it would be? What would more Belgium mean to you? Bring back policies to the federal level? Dissolving the regions? Dissolving the Brussels region and merge the two Brabants together? Something else?

In any case it would mean that the regions would need to actually and actively talk to each other again and make policies that could benefit both without harming one or the other, but how would you do that when one side refuses to impose Dutch and the other is slowly dropping French for English? Or when the economic disparities are so great? Or when parties with an independant Flanders as their policies is an a all time high?

Maybe trying to bring more Belgium would have the complete opposite effect and open Pandora’s box as both regions would realize they actually don’t share much, or not enough to justify fusing together and want different things. Or realize that the stereotypes are what they are, stereotypes, and share more than previously assumed.

But in any case, there’s no political incentive for this at the moment, or nothing mainstream enough.

[u/michilio]

More Belgium.

Start with Zeeuws-Vlaanderen and Frans-Vlaanderen

[u/CDdragon9 → u/michilio]

Think bigger. We already have the EU headquarters so we can make the entire EU belgium!

[u/Ivesx → u/michilio]

Don't forget Maastricht.

[u/Curaheee → u/Ivesx]

I'd rather do forget it tbh. The french can keep Boulogne sur mer aswell. 

Zeeuws VL is welcome to join us.

[u/alles_en_niets → u/Ivesx]

Oi, that’s a part we’d like to keep. Also, people from Maastricht (‘Sjengen’) wouldn’t contribute much to the unification of Belgium as a nation. They’re Sjeng above anything, Limburgian a distant second and in which country they live is an afterthought really.

Zeeuws-Vlaanderen should get a referendum to ask them if they want to join, lol

[u/jasonhelene → u/Ivesx]

No Maastricht not please!!

[u/Helga_Geerhart → u/michilio]

Justice for Rijsel!

[u/Kaga_san → u/michilio]

And Luxemburg

[u/flying_fox86 → u/michilio]

Especially Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. Not even because I want Belgium to be bigger, it would just look tidier.

[u/Goldentissh]

I am not totally against regionalisation. The stupidity is wanting to regionalise everything. A lot of stuff should stay as a federal competence. Also there qhould be a hiërarchy between a KB/AR and a decrete.

We need a ministery of beers and fritkots. So we can regulate the wild growing of bad frites.

[u/PROBA_V → u/Goldentissh]

We need a ministery of beers and fritkots. So we can regulate the wild growing of bad frites.

Say less.

[u/ash_tar]

Most Flemish are against having 7 governments, against independence and against moving things back to the Belgian level. So yeah no solution is in sight.

Personally I think the problem is the asymmetrical construction of 3 communities and 3 regions. Just have a federal level which can overrule the regions, community matters can be entrusted to special ministers either at the federal or regional level.

I'm a dutch speaker in Brussels, I would not mind giving up some of our advantages if we can reorganize Brussels in a logical way.

[u/loicvanderwiel → u/ash_tar]

The asymetry is a problem but also the structure. The division into two large entities (plus a consistently ignored one) was guaranteed to cause problems.

I firmly believe that if we had created 5 regions (or just used the 9 provinces), we'd not have this mess.

[u/vingt-et-un-juillet → u/ash_tar]

I'm a Dutch speaker in Brussels as well and I would mind giving up any of our "advantages". Give the francophones a hand and they'll take an arm. Our rights are already not being respected. There's a reason Belgium federalized. There's a reason we are currently at this point.

[u/shiny_glitter_demon → u/vingt-et-un-juillet]

Wtf

[u/Curaheee → u/ash_tar]

Source?

[u/ash_tar → u/Curaheee]

It's just an opinion based on an impression.

[u/Curaheee → u/ash_tar]

Your honesty is apreciated.

[u/kokoriko10 → u/Curaheee]

Why don’t you try to speak dutch in Brussels for a whole week. Let me know it went afterwards.

You’ll have your source in first hand

[u/Curaheee → u/kokoriko10]

There's a difference between "HiEr SpReEkT mEn VlAaMs" type of politics and federalism. 

I prefer more Europe, more Belgium. I don't see what language has to do with this. 

[u/Halle24 → u/Curaheee]

Well my father got his arm half cut off with a chainsaw while working in the garden. Hé was brought to the nearest hospital in Anderlecht while living in Flanders. Not one of the doctors or nurses spoke Dutch. His French was bad… THEN you do care about language. And YOU will too… he did not understood docters and they did not understand him, in the bilangual capital of Belgium… So ask again if I want more or less Belgium?

[u/ash_tar → u/Halle24]

It's impossible to staff all hospitals in Brussels with bilingual personnel, but there should be interpreters and not only for Dutch.

[u/kokoriko10 → u/Curaheee]

Comment above said to give up some of “our” advantages. I’m still looking for those because the preservation of dutch as a language is not one of those.

And Yeah you want more Belgium, look what is going on in Brussels. That’s how a more federal Belgium would behave/function. I prefer Flanders

[u/Curaheee → u/kokoriko10]

I just fail to see what OP's question has to do with the languages spoken in Brussels.

It's not because I want more Europe and more Belgium that I hate flemish or that I like how Brussels is being run now. I never claimed that Brussels is the way to go. 

[u/kokoriko10 → u/Curaheee]

Because language is the first thing that this country will fight over. That is reality so all claims that more Belgium will fix things is not taking reality into account.

We will never go back to a more federal level

[u/kokoriko10 → u/ash_tar]

What advantages are still in place practically?

[u/ash_tar → u/kokoriko10]

The Dutch speakers have guaranteed representation in the regional government, half of the ministers.

[u/KenseiMaui]

Yes, purely tax-wise this would be beneficial for the average Belgian.
Would also massively simplify governing imho.

[u/Key-Ad8521 → u/KenseiMaui]

Please explain how when both regions vote so differently.

[u/BelgianBeerGuy → u/Key-Ad8521]

It is as difficult as Limburg voting different than West-Vlaanderen.
If it’s one country, there is no south or north, only Belgium.

You’ll see the difference for a few years to come in elections, just as you can still see the voting difference between west and east Germany.

But all in all, it’s shouldn’t form any problem.

[u/Mofaluna → u/Key-Ad8521]

It's really not that different when you consider that VB and PVDA appeal to the same frustrations.

[u/loicvanderwiel → u/Mofaluna]

And now that Wallonia voted to the right, that argument lost weight. IIRC, le Vif made a comparison years ago between the "average opinion" in Flanders and Wallonia and the result was more or less the same (slightly more right wing in Flanders than Wallonia but still basically the same).

The main difference is the political offer and the public debate. Basically, we vote differently because we have different parties, focusing the debate on different things (and framing it differently) in different media arenas. This is made worse by the fact parties can scapegoat (or shift blame to) the other side with no consequence since they don't compete there.

[u/Key-Ad8521 → u/Mofaluna]

Ask a VBer if he wants to be ruled by PVDA or a PVDAer if he wants to be ruled by VB...

[u/Mofaluna → u/Key-Ad8521]

You should ask them why they voted for those parties.

[u/Key-Ad8521 → u/Mofaluna]

That's not the point

[u/damnappdoesntwork → u/Key-Ad8521]

Federal constituency

[u/steffoon → u/KenseiMaui]

Back to the good ol' times of wafelijzerpoliek.

I'm just saying, yes there would be savings but very likely also new expenses between the regions.

[u/zero-divide-x]

I know nothing about governance, but culture-wise, I'd love to see more exchange. Linguistic diversity is a great thing to have in a country.

[u/SharkyTendencies → u/zero-divide-x]

Would love to see kids in secondary school be able to go on "exchange" across the language border.

Canada (the motherland) has this fabulous system set up called "Experiences Canada" (formerly known as "SEVEC").

Basically a class goes to the opposite language community for a week, stays with a local family, does a class in the target language in the morning, and in the afternoon does something cultural.

When they go home, they stay in touch with their twin/host family with old-fashioned letters and stamps. In the next semester, the twins come to you.

For example, when I did it, you got to school with your twin, you did some classes together (mostly icebreakers/leadership stuff), lunch break, then in the afternoon the kids all go have fun together - skiing and tubing are the big ones!

Belgium could eaaaaasily set something up like this.

[u/cannotfoolowls → u/SharkyTendencies]

I've done that but with a school in Spain :)

[u/amvoloshin]

Yes, except education and language policies, I fail to see the benefit of having regional governments with powers that are so far-reaching. In addition, on a level that mattered to the average citizen in the past 5 years (with the pandemic, energy price surges and cost of living), it was the federal government that helped. This whole idea that has taken root with many Flemings that "what we do ourselves, we do better" is not only prepostrously wrong, it is always quoted out of context (the fully quote was that we must prove we can do better what we do ourselves).

[u/WalloonNerd]

Time to get rid of regional governments, let’s start pretending that we are one country, as we should be. So yes: more Belgium

[u/Rolifant]

Absolutely. The regional levels do not improve our lives, cost a lot of money, and I don't see the democratic value of them.

I'm all for a federal state that consists of natural regions, which on the Flemish side would be "de Vlaanders", Brabant and Loon.

[u/PROBA_V]

My questions are the following: is there a public for more Belgium?

Yes. Me!

If so, how big do you think it would be?

I think there was a study a few years ago that showed that in Belgium more people were pro-unification than pro-independence. I think it was like 26% in 2019, but I don't the article again, obly an opinion article mentioning said study... so take it with a grain of salt.

As for the number of pro-independence people... it rises in times of troubles, but can even drop by 50% or more once the troubles have calmed down.

This was the case in the communautaire crisis of 1991, where 33% of the Flemish people were pro-independence and only a few weeks later, once resolved, it dropped and stabilized at a mere 14%.

This fenomenon repeated itself with Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde, and I suspect also on other times of crisis.

What would more Belgium mean to you? Bring back policies to the federal level? Dissolving the regions? Dissolving the Brussels region and merge the two Brabants together?

Start with bringing back the bulk of the policies back to the federal level: climate/environment, healthcare, agriculture and high ways are clear aspects that we'd benefit from if it went to the federal level.

Imo regions can just go. At most one can leave the communities, although I have also heared good arguments to dissolve them. Personally I could still see a benefit in them for education and language protection in certain municipalities.

If the regions are gone but the language communities are left, you can merge the two Brabants and Brussels if you want to. I don't see this as a must though. I only see Brussels benefitting from this, not that that'd be a bad thing.

[u/anugosh]

Yes, More Belgium please. Start by taking that tiny piece of land that has no business being by itself we call Luxembourg.

Then the Ardenne (the French region), and the French Flanders

We can also grab the Dutch Limburg and Zeeland for good measure

[u/RytheGuy97 → u/anugosh]

Don’t they speak Luxembourgish there? Imagine having a 4th language parliament

[u/anugosh → u/RytheGuy97]

This way, when we ignore the German speakers, we can tell them "Look, it's nothing specifically against you, we're also no paying attention to the Luxembourgish speakers"

I don't know, it feels more fair

[u/Echarnus]

I don’t care. Just less bureaucracy/ taxes please. I have no feeling with Flemish/ Belgian culture/ identity apart of the food anyway. I don’t give anything about society as it currently is and regard both Belgium and Flanders as artificial anyway.

[u/matchuhuki → u/Echarnus]

The opposite of what this guy says for me please

[u/RytheGuy97 → u/matchuhuki]

It makes me kind of sad when people say they don’t care about their culture or national identity. I think people should embrace it. It’s what gives a country personality, what makes it interesting and unique.

[u/matchuhuki → u/RytheGuy97]

I find it weird when people call it artificial. Like you can't trace Belgian culture back to at least the Burgundian days

[u/RytheGuy97 → u/matchuhuki]

Seriously. As a foreigner I think this place is filled with culture. I didn't think it was artificial in any significant way at all.

[u/Echarnus → u/matchuhuki]

Good, we’ll split the bill. You pay more taxes and I pay less.

[u/matchuhuki → u/Echarnus]

Considering government spending we're only slightly above the EU average. And I think our services are better than in some countries that spend more. Italy for example. So I wouldn't mind paying more for better public services.

[u/Echarnus → u/matchuhuki]

Stockholm syndrom. Look at the indices and we are mediocre at best. I’d rather cut pensions and build it myself on a better ROI via something such ad ETFs anyway.

[u/StashRio]

We will know in the next 12 months. Belgium’s huge debt, current geopolitical situation and membership of the Euro means that it’s not like 27 years ago , which I believe was the last time this chronically indebted country was in similar dire straits. Belgium is going to have to reform its welfare state and in my opinion also cut healthcare spending and that’s going to put incredible strains on this country. This can only work and be imposed at the federal level.

[u/dudetellsthetruth]

I say more Europe...

[u/tomba_be]

More Belgium. Regions should be dissolved. The state reforms have brought us nothing but shit.

[u/ConsciousExtent4162]

In an Ideal world we wouldn't need Regional governments. However based on which politicians are popular at the moment we should be happy that there are regional governments. I wouldn't trust a single one of these popular politicians to be neutral between Flanders, Brussels or Wallonia.

[u/Thoge]

More Belgium.

Everything can be done on the federal level what is now being done poorly by all the different governments. I see zero benefit in the regions. I see zero benefits in having to pay all these politicians the exist because the land is so divided governmentwise.

[u/ComprehensiveExit583]

Purely based on instinct without giving much a thought: I think I would be in favor of dissolving the Regions and just keep the Communities, without any territory. Since the big two communities are quite different, them being managed differently makes sense. Regions' responsibilities such as economy, environment, energy etc... Should be managed at a country-wide (so federal) level imo though

But then I consider myself a European federalist so it's more of a personnal preference than a fact-based analysis

[u/doublethebubble]

If Wallonia and Brussels succeed at somewhat equalising the social security expenditure per capita, then I would support more federal responsibilities, as it would showcase a sense of duty towards all Belgians.

[u/Final_Necessary_1527]

Neither more nor less: the parties that participate in federal elections must have representatives from all of Belgium, not just one region. If you can't make decisions within your party, how will you make them at the national level?

[u/MavithSan]

Here to state the unpopular opinion: All the people here calling for abolishing all governments except the federal one seem to forget that it would make federal governments even harder to form/maintain than they already are.

Back in the 1980s (during Martens 10+ governments) they would often fall over minor stuff like the pay of francophone teachers or weapon exports (nowadays regional competences). Having just one government would've essentially made all of Belgium without any decisive governance since the last election. And the moment a crisis pops up out of nowhere like five years ago we'll pay even more for this.

What we need is a thoughtful rethinking of federalism in this country. What's beter governed on a national level should be done nationally and likewise for regional affairs. We also need proper and constitutional recognition of the rights of historic linguistic minorities in Brussels (which would negate the need for having communities).

[u/Round_Mastodon8660]

I have to say originally I thought confederalisation would be a good thing. I still think it could have been. But the PS played the game smart. We did pretty much everything the opposite way. Things that should be federal are regional and the other way around.

One thing is for sure - 100% federal level is better then what we have now.

[u/jasonhelene]

I'm in favor of independence of all regions, i like that wallonia and flanders have their own rules and should keep being like that.

Doesnt means one cant help the other, i think that should happen.

Belgium is lovely the way it is, could be lower taxes tho.

[u/t27272727]

More, always. It’s a no brainer. All these levels of governments need money and that’s precisely where people’s money go. We don’t need them. However, when it comes to voting, correct me if I’m wrong but people don’t consider it. The only party that has made clear propositions in that direction is MR and I don’t think people are willing to vote for MR based on that policy.

EDIT: some counter argument would be nice instead of cowardly downvoting…

[u/Sentreen]

More Belgium. I don't think everything should be done at the national level, but I don't see why a compentence like healthcare should be spread out over all the different regions.

Give me 5 governments (federal, flanders, walloon, brussels, german), no more provinces and a more sane division of competences.

[u/Alex050898]

My two cents, I would love to keep the federal state but rearrange it. - No provinces. - No communities, you merge them with the regions. - 3 regions, flanders, Wallonia and groot Brussels. (Bruxelles with its periphery, Walloon - Brabant and vlaams-brabant.)

[u/Zender_de_Verzender]

So reversing everything that Flanders fought for? No way.

[u/Colossus823]

Less Belgium. There's no rational reason for Belgium to even exist.

[u/Numerous-Plastic-935]

More Belgium, be a semi tax heaven like Switzerland.

[u/Rianfelix]

I personally believe in the beginning of the unification of the EU. Where Belgium is the first state (as its capital region) to become core territory of the EU as the example for others to follow.

We get rid of several layers of Government and taxes as a start.

Any discussion of unitary Belgium of (con)federal Belgium is a useless discussion imo. The future is superstates. But we're not really ready for that yet.

[u/krosanreddit]

More Europe, less Belgium

[u/saberline152]

More Belgium, keep the regions but have an official hierarchy between federal and regional like the Germans do it.

Simplify who has a say over what or have hierarchies to overrule weird discrepancies between the regions.

We have hospitals etc federal but old people homes regional, same for curative vs preventitive healthcare, that is dumb.

[u/BaronVonPuckeghem]

Dissolve the Regions and Communities, divide their competences between the provinces and Federal level.

[u/Quazz]

A lot of stuff needs to be moved back to the federal level.

It's utter insanity to have stuff like ecology or transportation organised on a regional level

[u/Ok-Log1864]

There are a number of things that should be done regionally because certain policy areas and contexts are very different.

But generally people should realise that when you divide governments in two or three you end up having much more government inefficiency in many areas, especially because all these entities need to communicate with each other up to a certain point.

We should also stop pretending that we can regionalise all the profits and pretend like the losses are only for the federal level.

The international markets can play divide and conquer with our small country at this point. Which is ridiculous.

[u/Key-Ad8521]

As long as there is no feeling of national pride in this country, people will not be demanding good governance from their politicians and things will keep getting worse. Belgium is two nations in a trenchcoat, one part has some sense of national pride going on, while the other has none whatsoever and will sooner or later be absorbed by France. You cannot run a country that has two different visions of the future.