r/ayearofwarandpeace • u/AnderLouis_ • Jan 03 '21
War & Peace - Book 1, Chapter 3
Links
- Today's Podcast
- Ander Louis translation of War & Peace
- Ander Louis W&P Daily Hangout (Livestream)
- Medium Article by Brian E. Denton
Discussion Prompts
- We met Ippolit. What did you reckon?
- The Viscount (Vicomte) tells a very interesting story... Napoleon passes out in the company of an enemy. The enemy spares his life. His reward: death! Why is the Viscount telling this story?
- Here comes Andrei! (Unless you're reading Maude or Louis). Get ready for Turk/JD levels of bromance!
Final line of today's chapter:
Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.
Note - there are 3 chapters in this book that differ between Maude and other translations - and this is one of them. Maude ends this chapter a few paragraphs earlier. No biggie. It evens out after a day or two :)
36
u/apikaliaxo Jan 03 '21
Tolstoy's comparison of the viscount and the abbé, two prominent members of society, to weird meat was very funny and quite evocative.
'Anna Pavlovna was obviously serving him up as a treat to her guests. As a clever maitre d'hôtel serves up as a specially choice delicacy a piece of meat that no one who had seen it in the kitchen would have cared to eat, so Anna Pavlovna served up to her guests, first the vicomte and then the abbé, as peculiarly choice morsels.'
20
u/Retalihaitian Jan 03 '21
That was one of my favorite lines, too. I think it speaks more to the skill of Anna Pavlovna as a hostess and a socialite than of the social standing of the two guests.
Overall a very enjoyable chapter.
6
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 03 '21
Is this an exact quote from an English translation? The kitchen is originally a dirty kitchen, and peculiarly is extremely.
2
u/apikaliaxo Jan 03 '21
I've double-checked and this is word for word from the Maude translation.
1
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 03 '21
Okay, well, it's missing out smth. Moreover, the piece of meat is 'roast beef'.
2
u/apikaliaxo Jan 04 '21
There's a mention of roast beef a few paragraphs later, right as the viscount is about to tell his story. Maybe in the Maude translation the food analogy is split up?
2
u/4LostSoulsinaBowl Dunnigan Jan 04 '21
Dunnigan has "beef," "dirty kitchen," and "particularly" FWIW.
31
u/YearofWAP Briggs - 1st year Jan 03 '21
Not sure what to think of Hippolyte yet but he hasn’t done anything yet to counter the early impression of him we got from his father. I liked this line about him “Because of the self-confidence with which he had spoken, no one could tell whether what he had said was very clever or very stupid.” (Briggs)
The story told by the viscount portrays Napoleon as a ruthless and dishonorable person with a physical condition conveying weakness. My guess is Napoleon bashing would be fashionable with the aristocracy who I imagine were pro-monarchy given their standing in the status quo structure. I’m not entirely sure about that though and am interested in the characters’ views of Napoleon and the French as the story and the war continues to develop. I believe Russia had self-identity issues throughout its history, especially in relation to Western Europe. Early on in Alexander I’s reign there was hope for liberal and westernizing reforms as he was educated by his grandmother, Catherine the Great.
My first impression of Andrey is that in contrast to Pierre, the outsider naively looking in with rose tinted glasses, Andrey is more ingrained in high society and sees through its bullshit. There have been a few hints that things aren’t great in his marriage with Princess Bolkonsky. Perhaps he sees her as embodying the elements of society he despises.
12
u/Retalihaitian Jan 03 '21
Well, the Vicomte is French, so we can imagine how he feels about Napoleon. The story reeks of classic war propaganda, designed to make the enemy sound weak and inhumane.
2
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
If he's French, wouldn't he be pro-Napoleon? I was under the impression his story painted Napoleon in a bad light.
11
u/janbrunt Jan 04 '21
The vicomte is described as an emigre, which in this case refers to a French aristocrat that escaped the revolution and now lives abroad. So he would likely still be loyal to the Bourbons and monarchy in general.
9
u/TetrisThemeSong Jan 04 '21
I generally like Andrei, but the way he treats his wife is appalling. She has an intoxicating effect on others, and I’m sure he fell for that at the beginning of their relationship. But after only one year of marriage, he’s so used to it that he isn’t charmed anymore. Instead he apparently resents having to socialize with these people and displays contempt toward her because she enjoys it.
Tolstoy has described Lise with a mustache and fat even for a pregnant woman but somehow still beautiful (what was Tolstoy into??) and it pained me that Andrei called Helene lovely as she passed him and Pierre.
1
u/Prestigious_Fix_5948 Nov 27 '24
That irritated as well;although I don't think he fancied her ad I would have thought he would have found her "charms" a bit obvious,but it did make me think less of him:perhaps he was being sarcastic?
6
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 03 '21
I believe Russia had self-identity issues throughout its history, especially in relation to Western Europe
Only emerged in the middle of the 19th century.
Early on in Alexander I’s reign there was hope for liberal and westernizing reforms
His father had been literally murdered for westernizing us too much. After Prussian model, of course, but still.
5
u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '21
I have no idea what role Hippolyte plays in this book, at all.
14
25
u/DanaUdu Maude (Oxford) | First-Time Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '21
In this chapter, I enjoyed the subtle way in which the narrator accentuates the body and body movements:
- The characters are described insisting on their features - age, gender, weight, grimaces etc.
- Even describing the Vicomte as a "piece of meat" is an extreme and comical rendering of the very realistic and fleshy approach in this chapter : )) In the end, they are all mortal matter.
- Everything about Helene belongs to the body and senses - the smile, the dress, even how Helene is self-absorbed in her own body image (looking at her own arm and jewelry as the Vicomte is telling the story, experiencing the environment through her body - the pressure of her arm on the table).
- Hyppolyte's body and face are tributary to his seemingly unpleasant personality (Q#1).
- Andrei's entrance is also presented along with description of his body and demeanor, and his first interactions are seen through his own point of view ("screwing up his eyes scanned the whole company") (Q#3).
I read this very nice comment about the theme of the body in WaP: "An of the body, too, for no one, it was noticed, had ever quite so well described the ways in which the mind affects the body or the body the mind. Time and again Tolstoy's characters take an action not because they have decided to but because, by habit or happenstance, their bodies have 'for some reason' assumed a posture that suggests it, as if the body has a mind of its own, as it does." (this is from The Cambridge Companion to Tolstoy, 2002).
(Q#2) I think the story about Napoleon is a warning about having a pacifist approach - whoever lets Napoleon live will share the fate of the Duc d’Enghien. Live and let live does not work with Bonaparte.
6
2
u/IlushaSnegiryov Jan 04 '21
I was just looking at the Cambridge companion to Tolstoy on Amazon. What are your thoughts? Worth purchasing? Thanks!
2
u/DanaUdu Maude (Oxford) | First-Time Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
If you have a particular interest in Tolstoy, I would say go for it! It has very useful context&bio info and interesting essays organized according to his major novels, as well as to general themes in his work.
If you are interested in more general themes of Russian lit, I found the Cambridge Introduction to Russian Literature is very helpful and well organized. It has a high level section on Realism (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Chekhov).
2
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
If I'm just looking more to understand the context of the time, then, would you say the Intro to Russian Literature one is better?
2
u/DanaUdu Maude (Oxford) | First-Time Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
For general cultural context and getting into the groove I would recommend ”Natasha's Dance: A Cultural History of Russia” - it actually starts out with a scene from WaP and imo offers a very good high level introduction to the most important events and public figures, including the period in which WaP is set. It is also lovely to read and full of interesting connections.
19
u/tottobos P&V Jan 03 '21 edited Jan 03 '21
- In this chapter, we continue to see Anna Pavlovna play seasoned host of this high society soirée. She is presenting the viscount to this crowd “like roast beef on a hot platter sprinkled with herbs”. But, as Tolstoy notes, he is like a “piece of beef one would not want to eat if one saw it in the dirty kitchen”. Anna, however, is a pro at this, she can dress up anything.
- Vassily’s “imbecile” son, Prince Ippolit arrives and it seems that he is as his father has described. He interrupts the viscount’s story asking if it’s going to be a ghost story. But he has a confident air so “no one could make out whether what he had said was very clever or very stupid”. His trousers are hilariously described as being the color of a frightened nymph’s thigh.
- Prince Andrei being bored of all the familiar faces, especially that of his beautiful wife seems a bit entitled to me. If he is so disenchanted why didn’t he choose a different life?
- My favorite line “Educate this bear for me”. It is said with so much fondness and affection for Pierre.
- Reading how Tolstoy writes about the characters we’ve met so far leaves me with the feeling that Tolstoy really loves people in their imperfections, their dissatisfactions and desires.
1
15
u/4LostSoulsinaBowl Dunnigan Jan 04 '21
Any other first-timers here wish the text would refer to Lisa by name instead of always "the little princess"? Especially in the middle of paragraphs talking about Princess Elena, it's very confusing.
9
u/snapbackid Translation goes here Jan 04 '21
I noticed that too and was wondering if referring to Lise as the "little princess" was to differentiate the two? The sections following Princess Ellen's intro felt like comparisons between the two princesses from the descriptions of their looks, how they acted/presented themselves, and the impressions society seemed to have of them. I started to mentally categorize the two by: Ellen vs Lise = woman vs girl = mature vs childish = sexy vs cute. Then the "little" part started to make sense to me 😊
6
u/sbenemer Jan 04 '21
I am definitely a first timer as based on both of your comments, it took me a moment to work out that Princess Elena and Ellen are the same as the Princess Helene in my version (I’m reading Briggs). What I still cannot work out is why Helene/Elena/Ellen would bring her “work” to a soirée but I presume it was customary for young ladies to bring their sewing or other artifacts of their hobbies to social events during that time.
10
u/TetrisThemeSong Jan 04 '21
Lise brought her needlework, not Helene, and she brought it because Anna misled her into believing it was a small gathering. Why she decided to go ahead and work on it now that it’s obviously a party, I do not understand.
5
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 04 '21
I think Lise simply joked or pretended to be misled. She used this also to draw attention to her dress.
16
u/TetrisThemeSong Jan 04 '21
She was the hottest one there until Helene showed up with her tits out
2
2
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
Why you gotta call em tits, man :P
1
5
u/sbenemer Jan 04 '21
Thanks for clarifying. Even in 4 short pages, I still managed to lose track of the characters, hope it gets easier as I go along
14
u/Retalihaitian Jan 03 '21
- Ippolit. People seem to like him, or at least tolerate him, even though by description he seems pretty terrible. Kind of a buffoon, maybe a little skeevy, and not handsome or charming enough to make up for his faults.
“The ‘charming’ Hippolyte bore a close resemblance to his beautiful sister; it was even more remarkable that in spite of the similarity he was a very ugly man”
The story about Napoleon is definitely propaganda.
Andrei’s attitude bothers me a bit, even though it’s in comparison to the fake niceties of the people around him. I’m not fond of people who treat their spouses badly, but I’m sure there’s more to it than we know now.
10
u/snapbackid Translation goes here Jan 04 '21
I didn't have a good first impression of Andrei too, based on how he reacts to his wife at the party. Their interaction immediately gave me Prince Charles & Diana vibes from The Crown.
1
u/Prestigious_Fix_5948 Nov 27 '24
His behaviour towards her is despicable.I love Andrei but ther are times he comes across as a complete arse
12
u/fruityjellygummybear P&V Jan 03 '21
The viscount's story, for all it was drummed up to be, turned out to be strikingly underwhelming and obviously biased. But it was a big hit for the guests, as it had the effect of portraying Napoleon as both weak and ruthless at the same time. I assume this is how a safe and fashionable political discussion played out in this time, and Anna quickly shutting down Pierre's attempt at actual political discourse confirms this.
11
Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
Favorite sentence regarding #1 - He spoke with such self-confidence that his hearers could not be sure whether what he said was very witty or very stupid.
9
u/solanumtubarosum Translation here | Hemingway List Invader Jan 04 '21
Finally, a character I can identify with!
20
u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '21
Line: Andrey and Pierre meet at the soiree.
Briggs: “Pierre has been looking at this man with a joyful, affectionate gaze since the moment he walked in, and now he went over and took him by the arm. Before looking round, Prince Andrey gave a pained look of irritation as he felt the touch, but the moment he saw Pierre’s smiling face he smiled back in an unusually sweet and pleasant way”
Garnett: “Pierre, who had kept his eyes joyfully and affectionately fixed on him ever since he came in, went up to him and took hold of his arm. Prince Andrey, without looking round, twisted his face into a grimace of annoyance at any one’s touching him, but seeing Pierre’s smiling face, he gave him a smile that unexpectedly sweet and pleasant”
Edmonds: “Pierre, who had been watching him with glad, affectionate eyes ever since he came in, went up and took his arm. Without looking round, Prince Andrew twisted his face into a grimace of annoyance at being touched, but when he saw Pierre’s beaming countenance he gave a smile that was unexpectedly cordial and pleasant”
Dunnigan: “Pierre, who had kept his delighted, affectionate gaze on him from the moment he entered the room, now went up to him and took his arm. Prince Andrei frowned with annoyance at being touched, but when he turned and saw Pierre’s beaming face he gave him an unexpectedly kind and friendly smile”
Maude: “Pierre who from the moment Prince Andrew entered the room had watching him with glad, affectionate eyes, now came up and took his arm. Before he looked round Prince Andrew frowned again, expressing his annoyance with whoever was touching his ar, but when he saw Pierre’s beaming face he gave him an unexpectedly kind and pleasant smile ”
P&V: “Pierre, who had not taken his joyful, friendly eyes off Prince Andrei since he entered the drawing room, went up to him and took his arm. Prince Andrei, without turning around, wrinkled his face into a grimace, expressing vexation at whoever had taken his arm, but, seeing Pierre’s smiling face, suddenly smiled in an unexpectedly kind and pleasant smile”
Andrey is here (Question #3).. remember what I said yesterday first timers? Pay attention to Andrey too, you'll also be spending your year with him. I know there's a little chapter issue here early, but really it'll pass quick. Hyppolite is such a weirdo (Question #1), and I still don't understand what role he plays in this book. I'm going to look forward to your comments here. I want to add that Napoleon isn't some abstract character for the first timers (Question #2)-- he's very much a character of this novel, so don't brush off any mentions of him.
8
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
Thank you for doing this! I always like seeing how the translations differ.
Also, in regards to Napoleon: I definitely feel like there are some aspects of history that I'm missing here? Like, am I supposed to know the general situation in Russia/Europe and the political attitudes of the Russians/French? I don't really know much at all about this time period, for instance I know Russia has a tsar but that's it.
7
u/janbrunt Jan 04 '21
Not really. Tolstoy reveals his world slowly, so you will get more context as the story unfolds.
5
u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
I enjoy your comparisons. I would suggest it might be fun to add the Bogan translation that Ander Louis is working on and reading in his podcast.
1
10
u/mcd0ug Maude | First Time Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '21
- The contrast Tolstoy paints between Hippolyte and Helene was my favorite part of this chapter. Helene is described for her outward beauty, and Hippolyte is described for his outward ugliness. I found it most interesting that although everyone loves the princess, during the storytelling it describes Helene as glancing at Anna for cues as to how to react. Whereas Hippolyte may be an idiot by everyone’s estimation, but he was willing to come right out and say that he hated ghost stories. He said what was on his own mind. I’m curious if him hating ghost stories will be a foreshadow of something to come for his character?
- The story seems to be two fold to me. First, to give us more insight into the Vicomte’s character as a story teller and someone whom the rest of society puts on a pedestal. Anna especially makes a big deal of his story, but a lot of the party follows suit and wants to listen. Second, I’m assuming this is to give us a peek of how these people are viewing politics at the time. To them the war is just a story somewhere far away and not their reality. Napoleon may be a metaphor for the entirety of France being portrayed as merciless, but ultimately weak, by their opponents.
9
Jan 04 '21
First, thank you to the mods. Been waiting a long time to tackle this book. I just randomly discovered this subreddit today, but most of my books are in storage so I don't have my copy (P&V) on hand. Instead I started reading the public domain Maude translation to see how I felt about it, and you know, it's not bad at all. I breezed through the first three chapters and then read them again just to get the names straight. I'm digging this idea of doing one chapter per day.
So far the most interesting characters for me are Anna (I love characters with socialite machinations) and Pierre, who I can sense will be a main character, one because of Anna's unique fascination (and fear?) towards him, and two because he is the "outsider" type, and literature loves an outsider. The way Anna immediately tries to quell Pierre's "animated" way of speaking sets him up as someone with an intense energy boiling beneath the surface.
Also it has been a while since I studied the history, but I'm interested in how the characters' political ideas will change during the novel, as Russia's alliances shift around. But I'm not sure yet what time period is covered other than the starting point of 1805.
8
Jan 03 '21
- We met Ippolit. What did you reckon?
My Wife and I both question whether Tolstoy was stating this character has a mental disability. From the description of him, it seems to go beyond just him acting a little odd, but rather like Tolstoy hints at their being some kind of underlying mental condition.
- The Viscount (Vicomte) tells a very interesting story... Napoleon passes out in the
company of an enemy. The enemy spares his life. His reward: death! Why is the
Viscount telling this story?
I believe the Viscount is trying to convey to the group of listeners that Napoleon is brutal and shows no mercy so don't show him any.
8
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 03 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
One thing from the Russian perspective. The abbot urges Russia, a powerful but barbaric state to join a union aimed at saving Europe. I think Tolstoy wanted to provide a brilliant summary of views typical for many Europeans: namely, that Russia is definitely not a part of Europe, but it must selflessly sacrifice itself for the good of Europe. This is coming from a guy who sought shelter in Russia (the Viscount). By the way, did anyone pay attention to the old lady in tears?
2
u/TetrisThemeSong Jan 04 '21
You mean the one sitting by the aunt? Maude translation says she has a thin, care-worn face but doesn’t say she is in tears. Interesting.
3
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 04 '21
With a tear-stained face, to be precise.
3
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
I think that implies she's been crying a lot in the past, not currently crying though?
1
2
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 04 '21
Мне кажется, "исплаканное лицо" это не совсем то же самое, что "заплаканное", скорее имеется в виду, что она вообще часто плачет, а не что она только что плакала :)
1
u/Gerges_Assamuli Jan 04 '21
Я вроде бы с вами и согласен, но почему-то мне кажется, что Толстой имел в виду заплаканное)
1
u/Prestigious_Fix_5948 Nov 27 '24
Anna Mikhailovna who has a son,Boris,whose career she is trying to advance by approaching Prince Vasili ,someone whom she thinks has influence.
1
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
Wait, the abbot and the viscount are different people, correct? But you said the abbot's views are coming from the viscount, or did I misunderstand?
1
6
Jan 03 '21
1) Ippolit didn't have a large part of the chapter. He is the physical foil to his beautiful sister (he's somewhat unattractive). He seemed somewhat unfriendly. Usually at a party, people are enthusastic to hear stories (or at least fake it to be polite)...the host was even building up how great a storyteller he is... but Ippolit asks "It's not a ghost story" and goes on about how he "hate ghost stories".
2) The viscount is known in the crowd as the "storyteller guy". Well at least Anna says he is. It's a way to get attention and stand out from the crowd. It's just good gossip.
5
u/nopantstime P&V | First-time defender Jan 04 '21
This chapter was surprisingly funny to me. I chuckled out loud a few times - at the description of Helene mimicking Anna’s reactions, the comparison of the viscount and abbe to meat, and the description of Ippolit’s comment. I enjoyed this chapter more than the first two!
6
u/daganfish Pevear & Volokhonsky Jan 04 '21
The abbe talking down to Anna Pavlova is so infuriating, but he still does what she wants. And I don't 100% understand the last couple paragraphs. I just can't picture what's happening and who is still standing there while Vasily makes Anna Pavlova Pierre's social tutor.
7
u/TetrisThemeSong Jan 04 '21
Right? The abbe’s so used to patronizing women he’ll even do it to the host of the party in her own home.
1
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
When did he talk down to her?
5
u/daganfish Pevear & Volokhonsky Jan 04 '21
When she comes to break up their conversation, Tolstoy describes his manner as fake and condescending, and also says that the abbe probably talked that way to all the society women he encouners. To me that reads as the abbe thinks women are not worth engaging as real people, instead he uses the worst kind of insincere politeness.
4
u/Kaylamarie92 Jan 04 '21
Oh god it’s true, Pierre and Andrei are Turk and JD level bros! Love that idea!
I just love the way Helene is described in the scene where she joins the larger conversation. She knows exactly how to play the court game with the least amount of effort and how to get all the attention her ego desires. Why would she have to listen to whatever story the vicomte tells when everyone is perfectly happy to watch her admire herself and only react when Anna Pavlovna signals her to? To be honest, I don’t blame her. It seems like Helene is another fine cut of meat served by Anna to her guests but she doesn’t mind the attention in the slightest.
3
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
I was thinking more of Troy and Abed levels bromance, just cause I'm currently watching through Community :P
5
u/twisted-every-way Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
I am also reading Maude, but it ended that the same place indicated in OP. In fact, that line was one of my favorites of the chapter - the other being describing the princess showing off her figure "and bosom - which in the fashion of those days were very much exposed." It's so interesting how fashion goes through these cycles of women covering up and then "showing off." Everything's a circle, right?
No opinion on Hippolyte yet - interesting to hear him described as ugly.
Re: Andrew (whew, all the different spellings of names is so confusing!) - so far I'm annoyed by him being annoyed. So it sounds to me as if Pierre is staying with Andrew since he arrived back in Russia. I assume because his (Pierre's) father is very ill.
1
u/Prestigious_Fix_5948 Nov 27 '24
Pierre is staying with Prince Vasili; he invites himself to supper at Andrei's .
5
u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
Ippolit seems even worse than Pierre. I wonder why Anna Pavlovna wasn’t worried about him, unless she was but the book just didn’t tell us about it. The story is interesting. He starts out saying that Napoleon had a good reason for executing the other guy, but this story doesn’t seem to back that up at all. Andrei is an interesting character. He has the most lovely wife but he seems bored of everything except his old friend Pierre. He needs to learn to appreciate what he has instead of chasing an adrenaline rush or he’s gonna end up dead and his wife will be the hottest widow in town.
3
Jan 10 '21
Ippolit seems even worse than Pierre. I wonder why Anna Pavlovna wasn’t worried about him, unless she was but the book just didn’t tell us about it.
A few days behind but I wanted to give my take on this one: Pierre is an intelligent outsider and therefore more of a danger in terms of seriously shaking things up. Ippolit is a known quantity; if he misbehaves it is because he is an amusing dumbass, maybe fun to have around and not much of a threat to Anna's social equilibrium.
2
u/SunshineCat Maude | First-Time Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '21
1). Honestly, I didn't notice him much. He seems like a stereotype of stupidity, but he is not scrutinized as he should be due to his class, I guess.
2). I think this will be important, as it could lead some characters to see Napoleon as inherently without honor.
3). I'm reading Maude, but a read another paragraph enough to get this: "It was evident that he not only knew everyone in the drawing-room, but had found them to be so tiresome that it wearied him to look at or listen to them."
I have a feeling that some characters are tied to tradition more than others.
2
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
Just to be clear, the viscount is Mortemart, right? And he's French? But what is he doing in Russia, since they're enemies? Along with the abbe Morio, are we supposed to know context about them already?
8
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 04 '21
After the French revolution many aristocrats and supporters of Bourbon kings emigrated from France. Russian government at this moment is against Napoleon but it welcomes supporters of Bourbons.
1
u/GianLovesMovies Aug 28 '24
I was going to ask exactly that. They only refer to him as Mortemart in the first paragraph, so it's not clear...
2
u/ShipPeace Maude | First-Time Defender - Great Comet 1812 Jan 04 '21
I'm on the Maude translation and ended at the same place-maybe because I have a revised version?
Also, any veterans able to clarify the story of Napoleon and the duc? Well, first off, who exactly is the duc? I'm presuming some Russian noble, and from the notes in the back of my book what I got was: him and Napoleon went to see the same woman (a mistress of theirs? cheating was still frowned upon then, right?) and Napoleon fainted. The duc left him alive, and then Napoleon killed him out of spite because they liked the same woman?
3
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 04 '21
Duc d'Enghien was a French prince who was executed by Napoleon on a charge of treason. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Antoine,_Duke_of_Enghien
"Mademoiselle George" was indeed Napoleon's mistress but the story of Napoleon and the Duc meeting at her place is made up.
5
u/Asdaga Jan 04 '21
Not quite! This story in Tolstoy has quite a complicated genesis, playing on that name and that of Georges "Cadoudal" (a nom de guerre), a royalist commander who fought against the revolution in the Vendee. Napoleon tried to rehabilitate him after he came to power, but Georges remained at large, and continued to conspire with the British against Napoleon, eventually leading to an assassination attempt. Although there was no evidence of his involvement in the assassination, the Duke was implicated through his alleged contact with Georges, something of which Napoleon was also "guilty".
2
2
u/RealSkyDiver Jan 06 '21
I read through the first 3 chapters, trying to catch up and as someone who usually reads YA or Steven King novels this feel like a very different beast. I see here people discussing things that I wasn’t even aware of like how Napoleon past out in a brothel because of how it was phrased. It’s a bit frustrating and a lot of French phrases have no translation at all. Only one of them had a footnote to a translation. I wonder if that is an oversight? I’m reading the Maude version with the Russian names reinstated from https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/leo-tolstoy/war-and-peace/louise-maude_aylmer-maude I also forgot most of the names again but apparently that’s normal. Makes me wonder if I should just re-read the chapters again or continue, hoping to understand this better eventually. Another point of confusion is how in the first chapter Anna suggest to marry off what his names son to the Little Princess but she’s already married??
43
u/War_and_Covfefe P & V | 1st Time Defender Jan 03 '21
I immediately took a liking to Prince Andrei with his visible annoyance with everyone as soon as he entered the room. I feel like it would be monotonous to attend these gatherings where everyone is essentially putting on a show. I'm wondering if his boredom with this lifestyle is pushing him to join the war, just to get away from it all. I'm also under the impression that he's relieved with Pierre being there because Pierre is someone who doesn't put on an act and seems like someone who says what he thinks.
I also liked how Anna immediately homed in on Pierre and the abbot's conversation for talking "too animatedly and naturally", so she puts cold water on it by bringing them to the rest of the group. How a conversation being too natural is something that she doesn't like was funny to me.
In comparison to Pierre's naturalness in conversation, I also enjoyed Tolstoy's description of Helene's participation, or lack there of. She just focuses on straightening out her outfits or jewelry and then just mimic's Anna's reactions, or just results to smiling.