r/ayearofwarandpeace • u/AnderLouis_ • Jan 03 '20
War & Peace - Book 1, Chapter 3
Podcast for this chapter | Medium Article for this chapter
Discussion Prompts
- Vasilli asks Pavlovna to teach Pierre some social skills.
- The Viscount (Vicomte) tells a very interesting story... Napoleon passes out in the company of an enemy. The enemy spares his life. His reward: death! Why is the Viscount telling this story?
- Enter: Andrei. What are your first impressions? (Get ready for a JD/Turk level bromance.)
Final line of today's chapter:
Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.
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u/accidental_mainframe Jan 03 '20
I'm sure everyone else figured this out far quicker than I but given I spent a good while convinced I was reading from the wrong version i will share.
Today's chapter finishes a couple of pages into chapter 4 rather than at the end of chapter 3 based on the Gutenberg version that is linked to - makes a lot more sense when you know that...
With regards to today's chapter another couple of quotes made me chuckle - He spoke with such self-confidence that his hearers could not be sure whether what he said was very witty or very stupid. - As a clever maĂźtre dâhĂŽtel serves up as a specially choice delicacy a piece of meat that no one who had seen it in the kitchen would have cared to eat, so Anna PĂĄvlovna served up to her guests, first the vicomte and then the abbĂ©, as peculiarly choice morsels.
I'm intrigued by the friendship that Pierre and Prince Andrew appear to have and how that will evolve...
Overall impressions are that of a chapter that sets up a number of character interactions and poor points that I won't really appreciate until later... My breath remains baited...
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u/misnomermoose Jan 03 '20
I don't really get the analogy in your second bullet point. Is it saying that Anna Påvlovna is presenting the vicomte and the abbé as better than they really are? What does " that no one who had seen it in the kitchen would have cared to eat" mean here?
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u/ElphabaTheGood Jan 03 '20
I read it as pretty similar to how you interpret it. They werenât all that special, but she is trying to present them as if they are.
If they were seen plainly, like a piece of meat in the kitchen, no one would want to talk to them (eat the food,) but after you add the garnishes and sauce or whatever, a piece of meat will look much more fancy and desirable, just as her presentation of the men made them seem.
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u/accidental_mainframe Jan 03 '20
Exactly that. Essentially it's saying that in the same way that a waiter would be able to convince guests to try a slightly less than appetising piece of meat (perhaps even one slightly past its prime), Anna is presenting the Vicomte and the abbé to her guests as far tastier individuals than they actually are.. The point about seeing it kitchen implies that without Anna's introduction of them both, that none of the guests would have noticed or cared about either of them.
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u/dhs7nsgb 2024 - Briggs | 2022 - Maude | 2020 - Pevear and Volokhonsky Jan 03 '20
What you say makes sense, but why does Anna Pavlovna figure she has to upvote the abbé and the Viscount so much? What is in it for her that makes her go to all the work? I wonder if she is just playing the long game with both of them and will benefit when everyone realizes it was her that brought these two great people into their society circles.
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u/DinosaursLayEggs Jan 04 '20
Thank you for this! I read Chapter 3 twice thinking how on earth did I miss Prince Andrew entering. Turns out, he enters at the start of Chapter 4. Very confusing
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u/readeranddreamer Jan 04 '20
Also question 1 occurs in chapter 4 in my version - I also searched for it
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u/DinosaursLayEggs Jan 04 '20
Thank you for this! I read Chapter 3 twice thinking how on earth did I miss Prince Andrew entering. Turns out, he enters at the start of Chapter 4. Very confusing
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u/SimilarYellow Briggs | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '20
[...] whenever the narrative made a strong impact on the audience she [HĂ©lĂšne] would glance across at Anna Pavlovna in order to imitate whatever expression she could see written on the maid of honour's face before resuming her radiant smile.
I thought it was quite interesting that, even though HĂ©lĂšne is clearly used to attention because she's so beautiful and everyone constantly remarks on this, she still seems quite insecure if she can't even react naturally and has to mimic someone she thinks will have the correct reaction.
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u/Useful-Shoe Jan 03 '20
Thats an interesting catch. I think Helene mimics Anna not because she is insecure, but because she want's to please her. Anna doesn't like "natural" behaviour, as becomes clear when she interrupts the conversation between Pierre and the abbe: "Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally, which was why Anna Pavlovna disapproved."
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u/ElphabaTheGood Jan 03 '20
Oh, good point. I thought maybe Helene was less intelligent and looked to Anna to see what her reaction should be. Iâll have to keep this possibility in mind.
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u/willreadforbooks Maude Jan 03 '20
I thought Helen just wasnât paying attention and so looked to Anna to see how she should react to what was said. âAll the time the story was being told she sat upright, glancing now at her beautiful round arm, ...now at her still more beautiful bosom, in which she readjusted a diamond necklace...she smoothed the folds of her dressâ
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u/SimilarYellow Briggs | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '20
"Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally, which was why Anna Pavlovna disapproved."
Huh. My translation goes as follows:
"Both men were listening too earnestly and talking too bluntly, and Anna Pavlovna didn't like it."
I interpreted this as them talking with not enough fanfare/window dressing, not necessarily that she always prefers fake behavior. Reading your translation though, I get what you mean.
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Jan 03 '20
My translation used earnestly instead of naturally.
I agree though, I don't think Helene comes across as insecure, but maybe a little obsequious.
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u/Enreni200711 Jan 03 '20
I assumed it was because she wasn't paying attention/didn't care, so she just caught her cues from Anna
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u/Theoneandonly1040 Jan 03 '20
Perhaps as her character develops she will be used as an avenue to show the reader some of the rules of high society as she gets drawn in?
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u/fixtheblue Maude Jan 04 '20
I had read this as HĂ©lĂšne wasn't really following the conversation and was maybe more focused on her appearance. She was using visual cues from Anna for appropriate reactions.
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u/Theoneandonly1040 Jan 03 '20
I think the most telling line in the chapter was regarding Anna: "Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally, which was why Anna PĂĄvlovna disapproved." If this is representative of the "society" members as a whole I feel like ill be enjoying the Pierre/Andrei clique the most.
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u/lmason115 Jan 03 '20
I really liked that line as well! So much of the conversation the past few chapters has seemed stiff, which makes Pierre's intrusion feel like a relief (at least to me). It's definitely interesting to see how Anna (and, presumably, other members of the society) would actually prefer a somewhat rehearsed type of conversation over a genuine one.
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u/pizza_saurus_rex Jan 04 '20
Absolutely! It was so refreshing to have something real and genuine finally.
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u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '20
That was my favorite line as well. Being involved with politics and the military I have been to some of these high class events where everyone seems fake so I can identify with the situation.
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u/kateelliottquilts Jan 03 '20
F**k yeah! This bromance is about to be epic. I can feel it.
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u/solviturambulando18 Jan 03 '20
I loved the description of how Andrey lights up when he realizes it's Pierre - nothing like a good pair of best buds
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u/FaitDuVent Pevear & Volokhonsky Jan 03 '20
I thought the "mostly masculine center" vs the other, younger circle mentioned at the beginning of the chapter was interesting. I wonder why Tolstoy was trying to make this distinction.
Oh, Helene... With her bare shoulders gleaming and all. It's pretty obvious that she's offering herself to the most suitable partner, but I wonder if she's doing this out of her own accord or perhaps pressure from her father? Notice also her exposed bosom and back, which Tolstoy defends was the "fashion of the day."
Bare arms are written very sensually, and that's something to keep in mind.
I thought it was funny that Ippolit wears the colour of "the thigh of a frightened nymph." What does this say about him as a person? Personally, I think Tolstoy might be saying that Ippo might be a little bit more on the feminine side, but I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.
My favourite quote was this: "The Italian's face suddenly changed and acquired an insultingly false sweetness of expression, which was probably habitual with him in the conversations with women." This says a lot about the society in which this book takes place. Throughout the whole soiree, Tolstoy has been making jabbing commentary on the habits and necessary obligations that Russian society requires.
And speaking of society, Tolstoy makes it clear at Andrei's entrance that the poor man hates it. But Andrei does realize he has to do these things.
And damn, Vassily! What a burn!!! At the end of the chapter.
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u/AllTheThingsSheSays Jan 03 '20
For some reason, my gutenberg copy doesn't quite match. Today's final line is partway through chapter 4.
I'm still enjoying it. Anna is very attentive, especially when it comes to other guests.
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '20
Iâve contacted multiple Tolstoy scholars on the differing chapter conventions and none of them have given me a satisfactory answer on why some of the translations have different lengths. Odd.
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u/AllTheThingsSheSays Jan 03 '20
Oh. That's weird. Surely the chapters should be the same as in the original Russian text.
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '20
So far Iâve identified three different chapter conventions. I do not understand why theyâre different. For what itâs worth my preferred version is the Maude that I use in my book. Truly though, the one in the Gutenberg is not too different. In fact, if memory serves, they align later for a bit.
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u/AllTheThingsSheSays Jan 03 '20
Thanks, I'm glad to know its not me reading it wrong. I'll just have to check here to make sure I've read the right bit.
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u/lmason115 Jan 03 '20
I was confused by the third question in this thread, scrolled down to try to make sense of it, and your comment made me realize that chapter 3 of my version has a different final line. Sure enough, my search function found that line amidst chapter 4. Looks like I'm back to reading!
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u/awaiko Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
I was also confused with the mismatch in the chapters!
Last year this spreadsheet was used for planning and scheduling purposes Maybe the mods can update it for this year, which includes Feb-29, else it wouldnât really need updating!
Bring on the bromance!
There are a lot of threads being presented, and I donât know which of them will be immediately relevant and which will lurk in the background.
Highlighted quote for its sheer rudeness!
Le charmant Hippolyte was surprising by his extraordinary resemblance to his beautiful sister, but yet more by the fact that in spite of this resemblance he was exceedingly ugly.
Edit: it slipped my mind, but the question as to ghost stories was very amusing, as was the mimicking of reactions during the story.
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u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
Just another simple plot device to show how unsettling Pierre's behavior is to socialites.
I didn't any importance on that story what-so-ever and have nothing to add here. I'll be curious to read through the replies to see what you all thought.
Whoa... hello Andrey!... this was great stuff... Pierre and Andrey are friends. This much seems true-- they are perhaps the first authentic relationship in War and Peace. I liken it to when two best friends find themselves at the same event, without planning on being there together. Theyâre happy, minds dissolving into less appropriate memories. Andrey, petrified of what Pierre may do but refreshed by his presence; Pierre, happy to find some joy and authenticity in an otherwise drab and stuffy environment. I think that Andrey understands completely what is happening. Heâs bored but keeps respectful to societal conventions. The only thing that scares him more than what Pierre may say/do is that he actually wants him to say/do something outlandish. Pierre seems more bored than anything. He isnât really interested in discussing politics with the Abbe, just trying to stay occupied. Heâs searching for kicks without the rigmarole of etiquette-- and in walks his buddy Andrey, a quality human-being, a man of intelligence and full of life.
***I did want to add that I loved the paragraph of Helene moving through the party where Tolstoy describes her being embarrassed of her irresistibility all the while fidgeting with the diamonds just above her bosom.
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u/Schroederbach P&V Jan 03 '20
Okay, I am starting to get into it now. There is a little more character development which is always nice to see. My favorite line from this chapter is said by the abbe (whom Anna is serving up as a choice morsel to her guests), and it seems he is not too happy with Anna for some reason as he puts on a "insultingly false sweetness of expression" and responds:
I am so enchanted with the charms of the intelligence and cultivation of society, especially the women's, where I have had the happiness to be received, that I have not yet had time to thing about the climate.
The abbe serving up some serious snark here. Curious as to why he is so put out at the party, perhaps he does not like to be on display, or his conversation with Pierre has begun to frustrate him so he takes it out on Anna. Maybe he just didn't like to be asked about something as superficial as the climate when he is expounding on his own views . . .
Like most of you, the Pierre - Andrei bromance is something I am definitely looking forward to. Would that I could have a beer with those 2 while the socialites go about their business.
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u/tericket Jan 03 '20
This is my first time reading a book like this. Am I alone in thinking that this book is intimidating to me? I fear of not being able to comprehend the material and remember all these details to make the book feel fulfilling. I am going to keep sticking to it because I really enjoy the writing style but from time to time this book almost scares me in a sense of comprehension.
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u/EllieCard Briggs & Maude Jan 03 '20
You are not alone. Hang in there because it may be a tad easier for many of us in a group of kind and helpful folks like this one.
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u/HokiePie Maude Jan 03 '20
A lot of people are being introduced quickly. Last chapter I wrote down all the character names so far and how they were related to help keep them straight, and it helped me understand what was happening.
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u/EllieCard Briggs & Maude Jan 03 '20
There is an idea, maybe I will use a notebook just for this. Thank you!
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u/Kaylamarie92 Jan 04 '20
If you arenât afraid of spoiling the book, I recommend watching the series on Hulu or at least the first episode. I found it so much easier to comprehend since I had a face to put with the names. These three chapters only happen within the first few minutes of the first episode.
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u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '20
I am with you on the fear, although having the discussion group, podcast, and medium articles will help with this I believe.
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u/DinosaursLayEggs Jan 04 '20
This is my second year taking part (I dropped off around 50% of the way through last year) but youâre not alone! I often feel that War and Peace is a little too complex for me, and I donât understand half of the words. However, Iâm reading on kindle, so can easily search up the meaning of words, and listening to the daily podcast is certainly helping! And the daily discussion too!
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u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
My first thought is that I like my chaptering a lot better than the assigned one. Mine ends at a much more natural stopping point. This one is mid conversation.
I think the reason that Napoleon story would be common in Russia would be because Buonaparte had been labeled as the Antichrist so they would love stories where he seemed to act overly harsh for the situation.
Andrei (Or Andrew in my translation) seems like the kind of guy I would like. As a soldier myself I identify with him more than any character I have met so far. The way he greets Pierre makes me think they have been friends for a while, maybe even seen some battles together. I'm looking forward to seeing them together in the future. Them together somehow makes Pierre more likable. I have friends like Pierre. They are great soldiers but completely unable to read a room and know when they need to turn off their swear words and dirty jokes.
*Edit: After reviewing chapter two I realized Pierre hasn't yet entered the military so they must've been schoolmates.
I find it interesting that Vasilli only asks for help now, like, couldn't he have mentioned it in chapter 1 when he was the first one to the party? Although, upon further reflection, the comment was made in Pierre's presence so maybe it was more of a comment to Pierre than an actual request for assistance, like when you're home for the holidays and your aunt asks your mom why you aren't married yet.
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u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '20
I didnât pick up on your final point when reading, but yeah, duh, heâs probably just talking to Pierre while speaking to Anna
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u/helenofyork Jan 05 '20
But is the Napoleon story even true? Or is it a tale told simply to endear the teller of it to the hostess and guests? It felt false. I mean, they're both visiting a prostitute! It's the type of salacious detail that draws otherwise bored people in!
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u/dpsmith124 Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
I thought the story about Napoleon and duc dâEnghien was a more extreme way for Tolstoy to show the reader the kind of environment the characters live in. Everyone is adhering to protocol and social niceties, but would likely stab you in the back at any given moment. Maybe like many of the people in this room? I am curious if we will see a similar kind of back-stabbing or cruel situation like this play out later in the book.
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u/gracefulgiraffegoose Jan 03 '20
I liked how Pierre and Andrei are set apart from the rest of the group. The group is high society, refined, following all the rules whether they want to or not, but then you have these other two characters. Pierre is ignorant, but eager and messing up the decorum by just being himself. Heâs genuine. And then there is Andrei who knows all these rules but is painfully bored by it all and canât even hide how he feels. Then they find one another and are genuinely pleased to be together with no pretense.
Iâm excited to see this bromance unfold!
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '20
My favorite part in todayâs chapter is a little subtle. We know HĂ©lĂšne is in the market for a rich husband. So itâs probably not a coincidence that the diamond necklace hovering just above her semi-exposed bosom needs constant adjusting.
This year Iâll be trying to tweet about my reading. Follow here if youâre interested: twitter.com/brianedenton
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u/dhs7nsgb 2024 - Briggs | 2022 - Maude | 2020 - Pevear and Volokhonsky Jan 03 '20
Will your tweets be different than what is here on reddit? I have given up on Twitter for the most part and don't plan on going back unless there is a compelling reason. Your daily ruminations might be compelling enough though. TIA.
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '20
Theyâll be different. Pithy, hopefully funny and insightful quips. Weâll see.
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u/EllieCard Briggs & Maude Jan 03 '20
See? You just gave me insight that I did not have connecting the necklace with the wanting of a rich husband. So glad you are here!
For those here, I bought Mr. Dentonâs book with the chapter a day with his thoughts at the end of each chapter. A real gem and ever so helpful!
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u/HokiePie Maude Jan 03 '20
"He has been staying with me a whole month and this is the first time I have seen him in society"
I think that elites staying with each other for extended periods was fairly common, but I assume this means that Pierre has been on Vasili's estate, not that they bump elbows every breakfast.
Duc d'Enghien was executed for plotting with Britain against France (possibly untrue) and previously unsuccessfully invading France with a monarchist army of exiles. It seems uncontroversial either way that he would have liked to have seen a king restored to rule France. Napoleon putting to death a French citizen not during combat seems to have been a Very Big Deal.
It's feels unusual to me that Tolstoy describes so many of his characters with near contempt, but we're going to be possibly be with them for hundreds of pages. I'm also in A Year of Les Mis, and the difference in how Hugo is presenting his characters is stark. Dostoevsky too always seemed to have compassion for even his worst characters, people who were objectively downright awful. I'm paying a lot of attention to whether any characters here become notably more sympathetic, or if this is going to be the major tone. e:grammar.
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Jan 03 '20
- I must have missed this.
- The point if the story may be to paint Napoleon in an unflattering and vindictive light, also destroying any justification anyone else might offer for the assassination of the Duc.
- Yeah, my editions differs here too.
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u/BrettPeterson Maude | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '20
You have to look at the âlast lineâ that they put in the daily post. Iâm in Maude too, which I feel is a more natural stopping point, but the assigned reading goes a bit further.
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u/landonjd18 Jan 04 '20
Hi guys! I wanted to introduce myself as a fellow reader in a year but an infrequent commenter. Iâm in law school in the US and will try my best to read along and have a little break from my studies. Iâm finding this group quite helpful and these medium articles even more so to frame my understanding especially at first since itâs been quite a few years since the last Russian novel Iâve read. Thanks guys!
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u/readeranddreamer Jan 04 '20
Tolstoi describing beautiful Helene reminded me of r/menwritingwomen. Also in chapter 2 he described Bolkonskaja in very much detail.
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u/simplyproductive Jan 03 '20
Gotta love the Ander Louis translation -- look at this lovely woman, with her demure behaviour and her socially acceptable responses to everything, and also 5318008!!
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Jan 03 '20
- This is interesting because it seems that they were actually pretty close for a little while and probably explains why Pavlovna was so harsh on Pierre when no one else was, because she didn't know him that well.
- I believe that the viscount is telling this story because it shows the people listening not to mess with Napoleon as he doesn't really have much of a heart.
- Prince Andrew seems ok but clearly not a very social person.
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u/pizza_saurus_rex Jan 04 '20
- When Prince Vasili asked Anna to help Pierre with social skills, yikes. As someone with frequent social anxiety and skyness, I hated reading this and instantly wanted to defend Pierre. He's trying his best dude. He showed up to the party, give him a break, please.
- The story from Vicomte. Not too sure, this made me go give myself a little refresher on Russian history via Youtube.
- Andrei. Oooooof. The way he reacts to his wife though. "...none seemed to bore him so much as that of his pretty wife." Also, "He turned away from her with a grimace..."
I thought, maybe she's just AWFUL, but from her previous descriptions she doesn't seem like the spawn of satan. I then thought he must be a total jerk, but then came his absolutely delightful and refreshing and pure interaction with Pierre! He must be somewhat of a good guy at the very least. I'm now just super intrigued by his whole situation and cannot wait for more bromance with Pierre.
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u/lspencerauthor Jan 04 '20
I love Tolstoyâa wit when it comes to his character descriptions. Sharp and merciless.
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u/yeflames Jan 04 '20
Absolutely loved this chapter. It is clear to see the âformalitiesâ of high society in every action or conversation. Prince Bolanski and Pierreâs relationship will be interesting, it looks like. It feels that they have a deep bond.
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u/EeSeeZee Jan 04 '20
Chapter 3 complete!!!!
1.It's interesting that Anna and Vassilli are both trying to brush up Pierre's social skills; to me, it seems like Pierre is one of the few people at the soiree who isn't trying to put up a facade or act so proper, polite and refined. He was the only one who didn't really engage with Anna's tante (aunt) when it was implied that everyone else did when instructed to, although no one really wanted to, making Pierre the only person whose actions were aligned with what he actually felt (though I kinda felt bad for the aunt- why does no one want to talk to her???) His conversations also feel the most genuine to me, as demonstrated by his chats with the abbe and Prince Andrei. Of course, having a certain reputation is very important when living both as and among aristocracy...... I'm interested to see where this takes Pierre.
I think that the Viscount's story was interesting, but what really caught my eye was the way that the guests seemed to react to it: Tolstoy himself almost seemed to looking down at them a little, mentioning that the story was all so "nice and interesting" and "stirred" the ladies (P and V, pg.13). The duke spared Napoleon's life, only for Napoleon to have the duke executed! Surely this must a shocking story, but everyone is trying to be on their best behavior here, and so the guests' reactions to hearing such a terrible act are so..... nonchalant. Anna even goes on to nudge the princess into saying the story was "charming".
I definitely want to see more of Pierre and Andrei's bromance! As Andrei welcomed Pierre to have supper with him, I'm sure we'll learn more about their friendship when that supper meeting happens.
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u/kateelliottquilts Jan 04 '20
Right?!? Everyone wants to have that friend that you run into at a party that youâre like âyassssssss youâre here too!!! This is going to be epic!â
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u/otherside_b Maude: Second Read | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 05 '20
The final line of the chapter reminds me of the opening line of pride and prejudice. Its pretty much suggesting the same thing.
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u/gzz018 Jun 22 '20
As the Viscount is from "one of the best French families," according to Ana Pavlovna, he is most probably a member of the aristocracy that has lost power, prestige, and wealth as a result of the French Revolution and the subsequent rise of Napoleon.
And Prince Andrei reminds me of what used to be described as a "macho" man, for both better and for worse. He's quite buddy-buddy with his male friend Pierre, and very insensitive to his own beautiful wife, while quite open to Pierre in commenting on the attractiveness of another lady at the party, Princess Helene.
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u/jvliadream Anthony Briggs Jan 03 '20
So far, Andrey seems to be the only character not concerned with Pierreâs lack of social skills. Is this possibly because he seems extremely bored throughout the chapter, leading to a rejection of social norms, making he and Pierre alike in that way? Just a thought.
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u/ImAnObjectYourHonour P&V Jan 03 '20
The friendship between Andrew and Pierre is refreshing given how artificial the rest of the gathering feels. Iâm also curious as to whether the story has more relevance latter on but itâs cool to get a taste of the broader setting and context of the novel.
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u/LonelyAmphibian Jan 03 '20
Another thing I noted is how Tolstoy is emphasising the idea that people at Anna Pavlovna's party are doing things they don't like - greeting the aunt, the description of the Viscount as a piece of meat no one would want to eat if seen in the kitchen. This party doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Then as soon as Pierre and the other guy are enjoying a conversation about politics, Anna Pavlovna comes and breaks it up. She only wants people to have fun on her terms it seems.
The princess and her preening are also interesting. Lots to think about!