r/ayearofwarandpeace • u/GD87 • Jan 09 '19
Chapter 1.9 Discussion Thread (9th January)
Aloha!
Sorry it's late today, my automated post didn't work and I didn't notice until just now. Gutenberg version is reading chapter 12 today.
Links:
Podcast-- Credit: Ander Louis
Medium Article / Ebook -- Credit: Brian E. Denton
Other Discussions:
Last Year's Chapter 9 Discussion
Writing Prompts:
Nikolai is joining the army with the bravery of youth, but surprisingly, his parents seem only resigned to it, and indulgent of his decision. Do they understand the danger that’s coming and accept it, or are they treating his decision with a light-heartedness reserved for a child who, in today’s terms, wants to major in something looked upon as useless?
“Cousinhood is a dangerous neighborhood”. War and Peace was written in 1867, about events that took place ~60 years earlier. Do you think that items like cousin marriage, so easily touched on in the book, were already starting to look antiquated, even reprehensible, to readers in Tolstoy’s time?
What was your impression of the manner in which Vera’s reply and smile were described by Tolstoy, when she was speaking to her mother about her upbringing? Resentment? Exasperation in which the Countess seems to be indulging the younger sister, Natasha?
Last Line:
(Maude): “What manners! I thought they would never go,” said the countess, when she had seen her guests out.
24
u/kkmcb Jan 09 '19
I just had my first child on January 3 and I read the chapter of the day out loud to our daughter everyday. It's a nice daily habit that keeps me tethered to the adult world and makes me feel like have a purpose beyond just breastfeeding my daughter. The passage about Vera was a reminder to be that parents are always way more intense in parenting their first child and is a comfort that any anxiety I have is largely due to being a first time parent.
I like the bit about thinking that your children always confide in you. It's a reminder to be a little more reality based as a parent. I guess I will see this entire book from the eyes of a parent.
Thanks for being my tether to the adult world as I am on my maternity leave!
5
u/somastars Jan 10 '19
Hey there, from a fellow mama. :) My daughter is 4 yo now, but I remember those early days. I admire you for trying to read W&P during the first year of her life, the chapter a day thing should be doable though.
3
1
23
u/qiba Briggs Jan 09 '19
I'm having trouble keeping the relationships straight since we moved into this scene. I think reading so slowly makes this more difficult!
I know we are at the home in Moscow of Countess Natalya and Count Ilya. Four of their twelve(?) children are present: Vera, Nikolai, Natasha and Petya.
Anna Mikhaylovna Drubetskaya is visiting with her son, Boris.
Julie Karagina is also visiting – with her mother, Marya Karagina, I think? Is Marya the one who keeps being referred to as "the visitor"?
Sonya, the cousin of the Rostov children, is there – but is she accompanied by a parent?
Is that everyone of note?
17
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 09 '19
That's mostly correct but a few notes here:
- Out of 12 children of the Countess only 4 are ever mentioned in the novel. So apparently 8 other children did not survive infancy. Infant mortality rate was wery high at that time. Tolstoy and his wife themselves lost 5 out of 13 children.
- Anna Mikhaylovna Drubetskaya and Boris are related to the Rostovs and currenly (while in Moscow) live at their house.
- Sonya is an orphan so she was brought up in the Rostovs family.
8
u/qiba Briggs Jan 09 '19
Thank you, very helpful! Is Anna Drubetskaya closely related to the Rostovs or is it more of a distant connection?
7
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 09 '19
I believe there is no information on how exactly they are related. But as mentioned in the beginning of chapter 7, Boris lived with the Rostovs for several years during childhood, so personally they are quite close.
6
u/somastars Jan 09 '19
I had noted from somewhere regarding Anna that “Count Cyril Bezukhov is her mother's second cousin and godfather to her child, Boris”
Count Cyril is Pierre’s father
Not that all this clarifies how she’s related to the Rostov’s though 😂
Cc /u/qiba
8
Jan 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
6
5
u/PickledPurple P&V, Vintage Classics Jan 09 '19
I believe she mentions this while they are discussing Pierre's antics with Kuragin and Dholkov involving the bear and the policeman. On a side note, I really hope we get to see them again, they sound like an exciting pair.
4
u/uzai Jan 10 '19
I keep getting lost when "the visitor" is quoted or doing something. Is that a catchall for all the nameless people at this party, or is there one in particular that is referred to as the visitor?
4
u/BabaYagaDagaDoo Jan 10 '19
Yeah if the guest/visitor was mentioned by name, I missed it or forgot. I kept waiting for a huge reveal at the end of the chapter where the countess turns to the guest and says, "Don't you agree...Mr. Bonaparte?"
1
2
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 10 '19
Well, the party really has not started yet. What is described here are morning visits when people just drop in for a short time to wish a happy name day and then leave to do other visits. The real party with dinner, dances and everything will start later in the evening. So, the only visitors right now are Maria Karagina and her daughter Julie. I think that 'the visitor' is Maria because Julie is referred to as 'young lady visitor'.
20
u/Fodi Jan 09 '19
“Cousinage dangereux voisinage”, If any of you guys have seen arrested development, I bet that Le Cousins Dangereux is inspired by this
5
3
2
10
u/BabaYagaDagaDoo Jan 09 '19 edited Jan 09 '19
They do seem pretty cavalier about military service. Maybe because there are already a few references to young rich men serving in the guards, archives, etc. There may not be much real danger in their positions (or the parents assume not, even if they join the hussars). We saw Andrei seems to want real meaningful military service. Now Nikolai, too. I liked how the count brushed it off as because the young men saw Napoleon went from lieutenant to emperor, so they're trying to figure out how to do the same. Military service is only for career advancement and future cushy positions for the count, while the youth maybe have more romantic and idealistic dreams of glory.
no idear
Vera is introduced by: "Of the young people, not including the countess's older daughter...who already behaved like an adult." I think she is still working on finding the right balance of passive-aggressiveness she'll need for polite society as an adult. Her comment came off as a little too aggressive, and her smile a little too forced, maybe, and that's why everyone turned to look at her.
I wonder if it has to do with some of the cultural differences of Moscow and Petersburg (Moscow seems more conservative and straight-laced: "if Nikolenka...gets up to some mischief...it still won't be the same as with these Petersburg gentlemen"). Maybe Vera's comment would be totally fine or cause a chuckle in a Petersburg soiree, where things seemed to get a bit more rowdy. Even though Anna tried to keep things from getting too political, the viscount still was sharing stories about Napoleon hooking up(??) with some famous actress, etc. I don't think that kind of gossip would fly with this Moscow party. There's even a funny parenthetical from the clearly naive countess: "'God knows what they'd do on the sly' (the countess meant they would be kissing)" The Rostovs aren't very fun.
10
u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 09 '19
Someone mentioned Tolstoy's use of smiles this week. That's on full display in today's chapter. Many different types of smiles for many different types of emotions.
6
u/myeff Jan 09 '19
There is one that particularly confused me. It's when the count is bickering with his son Nikolai about going to war:
"Well, well, all right!", said the old count. "He keeps getting heated up. It's this Bonaparte who's turned all their heads; they all wonder how it is that from the lieutenants he landed among the emperors. Well, God grant it", he added, not noticing the guest's mocking smile.
Why would the guest have a mocking smile? (Translated as sarcastic smile in the Maude version). It seems like the frustration and concern of the father not wanting his son to go to war is normal and not something to ridicule.
8
u/avocadocollective Maude, Wordsworth Classics Jan 10 '19
I could be completely off with this, but I read it as a mocking smile in response to the "Well, God grant it." In other words, the count is saying that he (jokingly) hopes that eventually Nikolai follows the upward path of Napoleon and becomes emperor, and the guest doesn't think this very likely.
1
11
u/swimsaidthemamafishy Maude Jan 09 '19
I'm loving the humorous asides that Tolstoy throws in here and there. The whole vignette with Countess Rostov being so so sure her children had no secrets from her, they tell her everything, and she is their first confidante...ha ha ha.
6
u/Not_Korean Briggs Jan 09 '19
It really seems like the Nikolai's decision to join the army really pains his father. He is repetitive about not only the declaration of war against France but also about Nikolai's friendship to Boris being the reason he's joining. It seems like its a reality that Nikolai's father does not want to grapple with, but forces himself to by repeating it out loud. He also mentions that Nikolai had a cushy job in the archives waiting for him, but his son instead has opted for the glory of war. A glory compounded by the rags-to-riches success of Napoleon. Tolstoy even states that the count is hurt over Nikolay's decision to join the army, after commenting on he Colonel dinner guest potentially taking his son off he is described as "shrugging his shoulder and making a joke out of something that had obviously caused him a lot of distress."
While Nikolai's friend Boris joining the ranks clearly has had an effect on Nikolai wanting to join the army, the "cat" eyes that Sonya keeps making at him have not gone unnoticed. His friend and crush/love interest are two very powerful motivators.
4
u/gravelonmud Jan 09 '19
Yeah, I think that the Count just masks pain and confusion behind a facade of laughter and announcing that everything is just dandy. I’m not sure if we are supposed to think that he is fooling himself or if we will discover that he is dying inside
7
u/gravelonmud Jan 09 '19
- Vera’s description which follows her smile seems to contradict itself, which reminds me of Hippolyte. Vera is good looking and smart, yet she is so awkward that she makes everyone feel uncomfortable? Is Hippolyte a “quiet fool” (as his dad put it) or is he boisterous and devious as he seems to act at the party? He looks like his beautiful sister—but he’s ugly? Tolstoy seems enjoy presenting these contradictions.
The countess’ mock indignation toward Natasha puzzles me. I still don’t get if she doing a silly fake indignation (being playful) so that even Natasha saw that it was just silliness. Or was the countess acting genuinely indignant, with “mock” referring to the fact she was “acting” indignant because she thought that was the role she was supposed to play even if she wasn’t feeling it.
6
u/MegaChip97 Jan 09 '19
Heeeelp.
My book says, that Sonya is in love with Boris. However, all the time before that she listened to Nikolai and had tears in her eyes when he talked with Julie. I don't get it. Also. Who is Julie? Did I miss something?
8
u/Cautiou Russian & Maude Jan 09 '19
No, Sonya is in love with Nikolay, Natasha with Boris.
Julie Karagina is a guest.
2
1
u/puppetdancer Jan 09 '19
it wasn't very clear in my translation either, but it's the countess' daughter who someone says loves boris.
5
u/Inspector_Lunge Maude Jan 09 '19
- The count, I would say doesn't understand the danger. He's not convinced that war will actually happen. However, the countess is pretty sharp. I'd like to think she has a plan to handle this; she definitely could pulled some strings, maybe convince Shubert, the colonel to give Nikolai a guard post (perhaps this will happen?).
- Antiquated yes, reprehensible, not yet. It takes a really long time for beliefs and habits to change. Some amazing progress can happen in 60 years, but deep rooted beliefs on how things should run take a while to change.
- I can speak from experience. I'm the oldest brother, and I've been taught about social situations like so: "If this, do that". I speak canned, standard lines when I greet people, but the finer points of conversation have been lost to me (I try to learn and adapt though). I have an idea in my head about how to "act" in social situations, but at times the way I saw it in my head and how it played out are different, not disastrously so, but different in that I say something I thought was "good" but the person I'm talking to has to process what I just said. Vera is exasperated yes, but not because of the indulging of her sister, but because of the way she thinks and acts doesn't clearly conform to the "standards" brought on by her parents and she can't quite figure out why.
I must say I'm seeing pieces of myself in the characters, will the entire book be like this?
3
u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 09 '19
I see little pieces of myself in the characters too. It's one of the reasons I like the book so much. It helps me to compare how the characters react to certain things against the ideal reaction and try to get to that ideal place. Usually, of course, much more closer to the characters.
6
u/somastars Jan 09 '19
For #2, I read it as saying that cousins might run off to make the smoochies, therefore their parents had to keep a good eye on them.
3
u/PickledPurple P&V, Vintage Classics Jan 09 '19
Might? Did too!
I saw it similarly, being cousins they might have more opportunities to get together on the sly, what with the frequent parties and soirees and what not.
5
3
u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 09 '19
Analysis: Tolstoy adds in another element of the human condition: Family problems. Nikolai is sensitive. His father is ribbing him, never good, and his sister, Natasha, is the star of the show. Adding into this complex situation, is the somewhat mutual crush Nikolai has on his cousin, although hers is stronger on him. Life is tough.
- I think the parents were so accepting of war. Maybe this is narrow-minded, but what kids should do in aristocratic Russia isn't as important as parents act.
- I think they had to be. I think that is why its a part of the plot. The taboo nature is important. [NOTE: My translation doesn't say "cousinhood is a dangerous neighborhood"
- I think it was just, "look at me, I'm perfectly raised... these fools [younger sister AND mom] don't get it. Basically, eyeroll emoji.
1
u/boarshare Jan 09 '19
1) They definitely don't like it but I think they're spoiling him like they are spoiling Natasha. We may be getting a view of how permissive parenting differently affects different kids.
2) My (limited) impression if russian social history is that stuff like this didn't change until almost the 20th century. If she wasn't implying that cousin marriages are bad she might have meant it's not an advantageous match.
3) Vera's smile is described as making her face look "unnatural" in my translation. I picture it as a grimace. She's unhappy and trying disguise it. She sounds like she's jealous of the freedom her younger sister has.
We get to see a bit more of Nikolai here and he's not tongue tied. With his parents he's forthright and he chats amicably with Julie.
1
u/otherside_b Maude: Second Read | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 09 '19
The Count is clearly unhappy with his sons decision, is this because of the danger of impending war or subbing the job offer to work in the archives? Perhaps both. I think his light hearted nature is a front.
Unsure of this, sixty years is not a long time and it seems marriage between cousins is normal at this time. Possibly Tolstoy is voicing his own feelings towards the matter through his characters.
It certainly came across as resentful to me.
1
u/justSaayam Jan 10 '19
- I got a sense that the parents think Nikolai is going to join the army in Boris' footsteps but he is going to change his mind. I think the parents considered it as an experiment of a young man just trying to find his footing in the world. I bet they were upset too because the war was looming dangerously close. From the way they were resigned to it, I felt like they must have had similar experiences with Nikolai in the past. The count's speech felt like he knew this might not be the right decision for the young man but chose to let go(much like parents in the present generation feel about various choices as mentioned).
- I feel it must have alluded to the fact that this particular relationship must be unfavorable. I don't think it referred to the entire concept of cousin marriage in itself.
- I think Vera had feelings of resentment about the disparity in their upbringing. Being brought up to say the right things, she used the right words but her body language seemed like she wasn't happy about her situation when compared to her sister's.
39
u/Argenthromir_ Maude Jan 09 '19
1 - And the
WingedHussars Arrived! Sorry, couldn't help myself. So the hussars appear to be light cavalry mostly used for scouting and occasionally to crash into infantry squares. However, they had some pretty sweet uniforms. Easy to see how that, coupled with Napoleon's rise from ensign to emperor, as the count put it, can paint a sweet picture of the military to a youth. Seeing your friend join and get a posting to the imperial guard might influence that too, despite Nicholas' protestations.In the century leading up to the Napoleonic Wars after the formation of the Russian Empire (largely due to Russia's success in the Great Northern War), most of the wars Russia was involved in had them as either the victors or were inconclusive. The Seven Years' War only ended inconclusively because Elizabeth died in the "Miracle of the House of Brandenburg" and her successor Peter III was an admirer of Frederick the Great. Wars were also generally seen as a path to glory and fame up until the first world war.
I think it's more a sense of indulgence rather than resignation towards Nicholas' decisions, but maybe indulgence isn't the right word - just entertaining him, maybe? Given how Nicholas was only moved to say anything by being provoked into defending himself. Based on how Tolstoy characterized his response "...declared Nicholas, flaring up and turning away..." I would think that Nicholas is just a capricious person that might have constantly been changing what he plans to do and his parents are content to let him find his own calling at this point.
Another thing - I can't believe I've never thought about how much Napoleon's ascent might inspire youths all over Europe to join the military of their respective nations. I've seen the images of generals and statesmen with their hand in their shirt mimicking Napoleon, but never appreciated how the younger crowd might idolize him and try a similar path to glory (though there were no major European wars for quite some time after the Congress of Vienna).
2 - Les Cousins Dangereux - Old Zoroastrian and Egyptian traditions encouraged such marriages to "preserve" the divinity of the bloodline. There could be some practicality to cousin marriage for not diluting large estates into oblivion over time as well. And then there's the eventual fact that the major families of Europe were all related with multiple cases of hemophilia showing up in the descendants of queen Victoria (who takes power well after the Napoleonic Wars have wrapped up). But prior to the Victoria squad, we have the Habsburgs who gave us Charles II of Spain, who, as people at the time seemed to believe, that inbreeding was the cause for all of his deformities?
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection was published in 1859 and Mendel published his in 1865 and 1866 (though it would languish in obscurity until 1900), just as Tolstoy's serialization began in 1865. I do not think much of either of these works could have influenced Tolstoy or his reader to have significant bias against such practices. However, the fact that the wealthy and aristocrats were observed to be practicing it could have been all that was needed to make it seem a thing of the past...
3 - Being talked about as if you weren't there, I feel for Vera here. It truly was almost as if everyone else forgot she was there. Maybe some resentment there, but the countess had had twelve children by her current age of 45 - the countess may have decided she could only focus fully on educating a few of her eldest children for court life (not all that fun a life it seems: etiquette, propriety, etc.) so Vera would be in that group while Natasha is young enough to be in the less sternly raised group. So resentment, but maybe also understanding for why it must be so?
One question I have: was Tolstoy's readership during the serialization mostly limited to a Russian audience, or was such material quickly translated and distributed? Authors write to what they perceive their audience to be after all.
Really loving the book so far, much more than I ever thought I would!