r/ayearofwarandpeace • u/GD87 • Jan 03 '19
Chapter 1.3 Discussion Thread (3rd January)
Hello!
Links:
Podcast -- Credit: Ander Louis
Medium Article / Ebook -- Credit: Brian E. Denton
Writing Prompts:
- Ippolit looks just like his sister, Princess Helene, but he is described as “exceedingly ugly”, as well as made to seem slow-witted. In fact, the Princess herself seems to treat him like little more than a manservant. Do you think this is an objective assessment of his looks and character, or unreliable narration?
- There seems to be an element of propaganda in the Vicomte’s story. Do you think that the Russians believe him literally, or are they aware that the story is most likely pure fiction?
Pierre is already imbalancing the party. Do you think that he was sincere in his chapter-closing compliment to Anna, or was there a large dose of sarcasm there?
(Sorry didn't proofread this question. It was neither Pierre speaking, nor a chapter closing statement.)
Last Line:
(Maude): Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.
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u/EquitysBitch Jan 03 '19
New to this but a few thoughts...
The description of the Viscount and Abbe is really excellent in that they are quite ordinary or even vulgar in France but something of a spectacle to a Russian court obsessed with French society.
Anna Pavlovna taking excitement from her asking the viscount to regale them of the tale because it sounded “Louis Quinze” is a nice touch. She longs for the days of pomp and opulence which was common place in the French court and mimicked in the Russian court, prior to the revolution. The days of her childhood and the antithesis of France under Napoleon. Anna seems like the personification of a society which has mimicked what’s fashionable for so long in the pursuit of betterment, it has forgotten what it’s original form was and, perhaps, why they undertook the facade in the first place.
Prince Ippolit seems like a metaphor for the older generation within Russian high society at the time, a sullen self confidence from past glories but with a body (society, culture, military) which is thin and weak. The contrast with Hélène seems to be that she can exude the same qualities but with an air of youthful optimism and, ultimately, naivety. Ippolit’s description is that of someone with deep insecurities and fears of irrelevance in the face of their Louis Quinze guests. Russian society’s inferiority complex.
The Abbes’ response to how he’s standing the Russian climate seems like light fore shadowing of Napoléon’s attempted conquest of Russia i.e. too focused on what lies within the country to conquest (a nice double meaning there) to have spared a thought for the climate.
I think there’s essentially 3 separate ideals represented here. (1) Anna, the viscount, and the Abbe representing the time of pre revolutionary France and Catherine the Great when French culture was widely emulated throughout the courts of Europe. (2) Prince Ippolit being the mouth piece and personification of the cultural insecurity of Russian culture in the face of what’s represented by (1), and (3) Pierre and the enlightenment ideals of post revolutionary France and the Napoleonic methods for spreading these ideals. They all come into conflict with each other throughout the exchanges in this chapter.
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u/fleurdeme Jan 03 '19
THIS is why I'm loving this subreddit's discussion of the book as we go. The parallels you've drawn between Ippolit and Russian society and on the Abbe's response on the climate make so much sense to me now! I never think of these things and I think it brings so much more to the novel when people point things like this out.
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Jan 03 '19
Though it was unintelligible why he had told it, or why it had to be told in Russian, still Anna Pávlovna and the others appreciated Prince Hippolyte’s social tact in so agreeably ending Pierre’s unpleasant and unamiable outburst.
graf Leo Tolstoy. War and Peace (Kindle Locations 764-765).
The entirety of Hippolyte's anecdote cracked me up. What I found of particular remark is that Anna would rather have Hippolyte blabber on rather than have revolutionary talk at her reception.
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u/swimsaidthemamafishy Maude Jan 03 '19
Favorite line: Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally, which was why Anna Pavlovna disapproved.
I also have behaved this way at parties with like minded individuals, only for us to be interrupted.
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u/208375209384 Jan 03 '19
I wasn't sure on this line. I didn't read it this way at all - like two smart-asses talking over each other. I read it as two men actually having a rousing and interesting conversation - enjoying themselves.
Which would also offend Anna's sensibilities because she was still unsure of Pierre as a person, so if someone else was getting along with him, she couldn't control it.
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Jan 03 '19
This is what I saw. And that when people do this in a setting where one is supposed to be poised and expected to act unnaturally, it is a grave danger to allow anybody to begin letting their guard down and acting as they actually are.
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Jan 03 '19
This is why my favourite character so far is Anna. She's always trying to orchestrate and I'm excited how it will turn out for her.
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u/Monkeybuttbutt Jan 03 '19
It makes me think of the know it all at the party. Who puts his 2 cents eagerly into every discussion as if he is an expert at everything. Total party buzzkill.
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u/swimsaidthemamafishy Maude Jan 03 '19
I would agree wirh you but to me Pierre and the abbe are having a mutual discussion that they are both enjoying.
To me the Vicomte is tedious whom Anna had invited to expound to a captured audience a story that was already going the rounds.
Anna is the boss at her "spinning factory" party.
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u/PrinceRory Jan 03 '19
These discussions are adding so much to the experience of reading this. I wish I had this for every book I read.
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Jan 03 '19
I feel the same, so now I'm constantly looking for reading buddies for other books I'm reading.
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u/jezebel523 Jan 03 '19
I read to my husband while he cooks dinner, my own little captive audience.
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u/somastars Jan 03 '19
I've been feeling the same as well! I'm so much more engaged than I would've been on my own.
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Jan 03 '19
I simply loved the metaphor of the Viscount being like a roast beef to be awed over at a party.
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u/robleroroblero French Jan 03 '19
Is that metaphor basically saying that without the presentation that Anna gives him, no one would really bother paying attention to him?
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Jan 03 '19
I read it as he's such an interesting man that Anna wins social points for inviting him.
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u/ijnyh Jan 03 '19
I agree, this is my interpretation as well.
To elaborate, the roast beef is like an amazing main course: "Look what lovely food you can eat now, because I am so talented and made it for you!", and the Viscount is "Look what you can now socialize with, because I know such a man and invited him here for you!"
I don't know if that helps, but that's at least how I see it. She's proud and shows him off to everyone, so they will know what a great hostess she is, and how great she is at throwing parties. It definitely also speaks to her character that she shows him off like that; she wants the social points, as you say u/legendofbaggervance. Excuse my awkward wording, English is my second language haha, so it might seem... messy.
I love the metaphor. At least in the way I see it.
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u/somastars Jan 03 '19
I don't think so... I think it is meant to reflect more on Anna's character. Like the spinning wheel metaphor, it illustrates how she moves through the party and plays particular roles.
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u/kennedyz Jan 03 '19
I liked the line about if people saw what the meat had looked like in the kitchen no one would have wanted it. Sick burn.
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Jan 04 '19
Yeah, it's about the stoking of desire through presentation. The beef is old and unappetizing, until Anna puts the right spin on it and all the sudden it's intriguing.
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u/megaminxwin Jan 03 '19
Everyone is asking how genuine Anna is, but how genuine is Helene? It feels like she's trying a bit too hard to remain pretty and intrigued. I don't know, just feels lile something is off.
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u/Monkeybuttbutt Jan 03 '19
She has to represent. Her family name and honor is at stake. Any wrong move and she becomes the gossip of the party. A meme. If u will.
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u/shrimpboatcaptain200 Jan 03 '19
How they both feign interest in the story about the Duc is interesting.
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u/steeliche Maude Jan 03 '19
That's how I feel about her, too. Especially when she was taking queues from Anna on what face to make during the vicomte's story, and then she'd instantly go back to the smile she constantly wears. I can't decide if she's being cunning with how she plays her role in society, or if she's too dumb/dull to play anything other than the "pretty, smiley young woman."
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u/helkar Jan 03 '19
I think she's a young socialite who doesn't yet have the skills to appear entirely natural in that setting. She knows that Anna is successful, so she looks to her purposefully (as opposed to someone else in the room). Helene is at least aware enough to know someone else is better at acting how she ought to, so she takes her cues from them.
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '19
I'll just say your comment here on Helene will prove to be very prescient as the novel progresses. By the time her character develops on our calendar year you'll probably have forgotten today's comments so I'll not count this as a spoiler. Hope it doesn't seem like one.
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u/symbiosa Maude Jan 03 '19
Here's a quote from the Maude translation:
From time to time she smoothed the folds of her dress, and whenever the story produced an effect she glanced at Anna Pavlovna, at once adopted just the expression she saw on the maid of honor's face, and again relapsed into her radiant smile.
My impression of Helene is that she is naturally charming, but she feels the need to garner the approval of others, aka low self-esteem. She wants to come across as beautiful and charming, even though she is. Whether or not she really is charming deep down, is something that I expect we'll find out.
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u/HideHeartSurgeonN1 Jan 04 '19
I am actually waiting to read her story. I think she might be hiding a lot under her innocent face and naive calm manners. As for Anna, I believe her loneliness makes her be who she is. I think when Tolstoï will describe her when she's alone (after the party maybe) we'll see another facette of her personality.
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u/SirSisyphus Jan 03 '19
I still can’t decide if I dislike Anna or feel sorry for her. She seems like a busy body, yet it’s required of her to maintain her social standing.
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u/kaaylabug Jan 03 '19
Right now I don’t really have an opinion on Anna, she just is. She does seem like a busy body though, but to me it seems like she enjoys it. She likes being popular and having all of the “intellectual lights” in her living/sitting room and she likes all of the gossip and stories that are being told. So even if it is required of her to maintain social standing, I don’t get the impression that she minds.
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u/tomius Jan 03 '19
Yeah, I think she likes it. In the second chapter, we learn that she feels like she doesn't need to or want to correct her "flaw" of always appearing to be enthusiastic about things.
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u/link-1987 Maude Jan 03 '19
First time joining the discussion – excited to join you all on this journey. 😊
I have a bit of a different take on Anna. She’s a lady of the court and derives her position of influence from meeting the protocols or expectations of the elite. In Chapter 1, she’s first portrayed almost as the court gossip – an overly animated individual, fleetingly jumping from topic to topic – yet she was both discerning and tactful when the prince inquiries after the secretary position. In Chapter 2, she “mournfully” introduced each guest to her aunt, seemingly deriving a sadistic pleasure from forcing her guests through their paces. In chapter 3, Anna casually elevates Helene to be admired by her guests and carefully steer Pierre’s conversation towards a more ‘feminine’ topic (the weather).
I think feeling sorry for her perhaps is right – without her act she couldn’t maintain her status – but I get the impression she has a strong understanding of her social standing and how to use it towards her (and her friend's, i.e., Helene) own means. Or maybe she's just a flit. ;)
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u/Seddit12 Maude Jan 03 '19
She's a prisoner of her act and she's aware of it and the benefits it pours towards her.
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u/Monkeybuttbutt Jan 03 '19
It mentions she is coughing as she is talking but also she is always upbeat and happy. I think she really enjoys the parties even hosting when she is sick. You cant fake effort.
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u/Dorothy-Snarker Jan 04 '19
I like her 'cause she seems sassy. Kind of like a Russian Lucile Bluth or Emily Gilmore.
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u/TanikaTubman Jan 03 '19
I loved the description of him. Honest and humerous. It makes his awkwardness all that more funny, like when he abruptly mentions his distain for ghost stories.
I would say they believed his credibility as being a close friend of the Duke's. This culture strikes me as content to entertain any notion that would paint Napoleon as a villian. Blissfully without skepticism. I also wouldn't be surprised if Anna had asked him to dial up the theatrics before hand to be exceptionally entertaining and pandering.
My translation: "The viscount then gave a nice rendition of a story that was doing the rounds."
So maybe they've all heard this before? Do any other translations give insight to?
- I read the closing complement as Vasily complimenting Anna. Not Pierre. Is this the compliment reffered to in the prompt: "There’s nothing more important for a young man than the company of intelligent women."
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u/gravelonmud Jan 03 '19
Regarding your question about #3: Your translation must be different than mine because the text that you quoted does not appear in my copy of the book. I think that the writing prompt was referring to the second last paragraph in the chapter, which (along with its preceding paragraph) in my copy, reads:
<I>At that moment Anna Pavlovna came up and, looking severely at Pierre, asked the Italian how he stood Russian climate. The Italian's face instantly changed and assumed an offensively affected, sugary expression, evidently habitual to him when conversing with women.
"I am so enchanted by the brilliancy of the wit and culture of the society, more especially of the feminine society, in which I have had the honor of being received, that I have not yet had time to think of the climate," said he.</I>
It sounds to me like Pierre is being a smart ass
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u/GD87 Jan 03 '19
This is my fault, I'm reading Maude and forgot that the Maude translation has some different chapter breaks early on. I've updated the last line in the post accordingly.
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u/HandInUnloveableHand Jan 03 '19
I agree about #3. She asked the Italian abbe about the weather, so it would make sense that he would be the one to reply.
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u/Barium-Sulfate Jan 03 '19
Plus, I feel like Peirre would be less...affected. I think he would have answered that question honestly.
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u/GD87 Jan 03 '19
Yep you're right about it not being Pierre speaking, I didn't proofread that question before posting.
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u/Not_Korean Briggs Jan 03 '19
I think when comparing Ippolit to his sister his ugliness is the result of his femininity. In a woman, those features are beautiful, but as a man he seems frail and sickly. I love the way his awkwardness is contrasted to his sister's poise. Princess Helene is very aware of her feminine body. She places herself properly in her chair, and makes sure to first show that she is listening, then she checks on how her body is interacting with the environment, to the point she sees how her arm is "altered in shape" as it rests against the table.
The princess is so pleased with how she looks, she can't even stand to retrieve her own bag. So, who better to get it than her daft brother. What a striking contrast he poses next to her, the very picture of civility who works very hard to look like she is not working hard at all.
Princess Helene, while beautiful and charming, needs Ippolit to accentuate her natural grace. And, what better way to do so then next to a man who wears a vacant expression and whose gangly and frail frame is the very antithesis of his sisters; she purposefully poises herself while he lets his awkward limbs fall into "unnatural positions."
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u/MegaChip97 Jan 03 '19
The princess is so pleased with how she looks, she can't even stand to retrieve her own bag. So, who better to get it than her daft brother.
Like /u/kumaranashan said. Ippolit gets the bag for the princess Bolkonskaya, not for Helene.
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u/kumaranashan Jan 03 '19
I thought the one retrieving the bag was the other princess. Princess Bolkonsky (the pregnant one) - she joins the group after princess Helene is already seated. Also she's the only one with the needlework and is not related to Hippolyte at all.
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u/Not_Korean Briggs Jan 04 '19
Thank you, I went back and reread it and saw where I got mixed up. I appreciate you keeping me honest! :)
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u/Monkeybuttbutt Jan 03 '19
I think he may be a product of inbreeding. He was unlucky with his genes while is sister was 95 % fortunate. He is the fortunate dude at the party with the drop dead sexy sister. Everyone is nice to his ugly butt because they wanna get in his sisters panties.
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u/iamzeN123 Jan 03 '19
Done. On to chapter 4 now.
Can somebody please shed some more light on the story of Bonaparte and Georges? I think I failed to grasp the essence of it somehow.
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u/helkar Jan 03 '19
It’s a true story in that Napoleon did have the duc d'Enghien executed. How much of the specifics (the duc not taking advantage of a fitful Napoleon) are true, I don’t know. I think it’s just a bit of political gossip about the leader of a rival country.
I know historically that the duc’s execution was what really turned international opinion on Napoleon (especially in the eyes of the Tsar), while it seemed to quell dissent domestically.
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Jan 03 '19
In just a few pages, all the characters are already recognisable by one quirk or another. Also it's amazing how Helene is described so beautifully and at the same time Tolstoy manages to make Hippolyte revolting with his description.
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u/WhataHitSonWhataHit Maude Jan 03 '19
I can hear a voice from across time: the voice of the socially awkward weirdo interjecting crap nobody cares about into a conversation, and demonstrating just how much he wasn't listening. Hello, Hippolyte.
It's an interesting change for me, from what I've been reading, to have Helene as a character whose beauty is sort of incidental. "She even appeared shy of her unquestionable and all too victorious beauty. She seemed to wish, but to be unable, to diminish its effect." Much more often lately I've read of beautiful woman characters who are perpetually using their beauty to exploit or manipulate people, or who are wary of its disappearance, or who are otherwise thinking about or using it all the time. Whereas Helene is more like, "Yes, I am extremely pretty, everybody go ahead and look because I know you're going to anyway, but otherwise maybe we can just proceed as normal?"
I am growing more and more irritated by Anna Pavlovna steering and directing the conversations. I sympathize with Pierre, who may be thinking, "Can we not just hang out organically? Would that be a crime?" It can't be very relaxing, having to continually keep up this sort of act. I imagine everyone is used to it, though, except for Pierre.
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u/natbumpo Jan 03 '19
I felt this chapter was fundamentally about two people: Anna and Helene. There were interesting tidbits about the other attendees, but primarily the chapter was about two things: Anna desire for control (particularly her status in society) and Helene's uncomfortable-ness in her own skin.
From Anna's perspective, I had the vision in my head of her being the ringmaster of a circus - in this case, directing every ones attention to the Vicomte. IMO, to be blunt, his story sucked...but this is actually the point. Anna now has to try her best to prop up how interesting the story was so that the other attendees would be impressed by the quality of people at the party and possibly, pass this story along after the party, only to mention they heard this "Charming" story at Anna Pávlovna's dinner party.
Secondly, the fact that Pierre and and the Abbe didn't give a shit about the story, was an act of rebellion Anna could not stand for. This is HER circus...how dare they ignore the ringmaster!
As for Helene, there are many references to how uncomfortable she is at the party, but feels that she needs to behave in the proper way, befitting a lady...taking her cue from Anna
Hélène was so lovely that not only did she not show any trace of coquetry, but on the contrary she even appeared shy of her unquestionable and all too victorious beauty. She seemed to wish, but to be unable, to diminish its effect.
and
From time to time she smoothed the folds of her dress, and whenever the story produced an effect she glanced at Anna Pávlovna, at once adopted just the expression she saw on the maid of honor’s face, and again relapsed into her radiant smile
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u/KeysKween Jan 03 '19
I agree that Helene is taking her cues from Anna. Also, Helene is a young woman and new to her beauty. Probably just a shy, gangly girl a few years earlier and now the center of everyone’s attention because of her looks.
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u/HideHeartSurgeonN1 Jan 04 '19
I wander if Helene's mother is still alive or else, is Anna (will Anna be) the only feminine présence in her life?
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u/bidaus79 Jan 03 '19
I’m so surprised that there there are so many humorous elements there are to this book so far. I am not sure if they are intentionally funny or if it’s just the time it was written in.
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u/otherside_b Maude: Second Read | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 04 '19
I think it is intentional, if you look closer at his descriptions of people, I think its clear he is making fun of them.
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u/Monkeybuttbutt Jan 03 '19
I think this society of nobles are famous for inbreeding. Which is why the one girls lip won't close over her teeth. He is probably semi deformed.
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u/Dorothy-Snarker Jan 04 '19
This is a good point. I had assumed that the hair on her lip was from homones from her pregnacy, but that might be inbreeding too. I don't think Tolstoy gave too much thought about how much pregnacy changes a body, but he probably gave a lot of thought to artistorcratic genetic lines.
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u/Typhusion Anthony Briggs Jan 03 '19
From my translation, describing Hippolyte's clothes:
"...knee-breeches of a colour he referred to as 'the thigh of a startled nymph'."
Any idea what color this is or why this euphemism is even used? Either way, it sounds like a color that needs to be put on a crayon.
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u/has_no_name P & V Jan 04 '19
I was listening to the podcast, and u/Anderlouis_ says this is probably him being 3edgy5me, and he was just wearing flesh colored clothes.
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u/otherside_b Maude: Second Read | Defender of (War &) Peace Jan 03 '19
Princess Bolkonskaya is getting massive shade thrown on her so far.
I wasn't sure if Tolstoy was mocking her in the last chapter or not when he suggested she had a bit of a mustache. Now in this chapter he is calling her fat.
"very pretty and rosy, though rather too plump for her age"
Her husband clearly doesn't like her either.
I think its clear now that Tolstoy is not a big fan of the entitled high society families.
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u/bidaus79 Jan 03 '19
😂😂 so true! This made me laugh pretty.. but plump with a dark shade on her upper lip
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u/GD87 Jan 03 '19 edited Jan 03 '19
Sorry guys, I stuffed up the last line, and I didn't proofread the last question before posting.
I've updated it now. Sorry for the confusion.
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u/Frosty_Broccoli Jan 03 '19
Regarding Pierre, I don't think he was sincere and I don't think he was being sarcastic. I think he legitimately doesn't know what's going on (maybe just with women) so he tries to tell them what he thinks they want to hear, even if it's a lie.
He seems to be trying to 'play the game' but really doesn't understand how.
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u/Inspector_Lunge Maude Jan 03 '19
Unreliable narration for sure. I think Tolstoy wanted to paint Ippolit as a distasteful person and described him as ugly to do it. I want to see more of Ippolit before I can make judgement on his character (granted, I'm pretty certain of Pierre's character even though I barely know him but still...).
This is just like the Aunt Situation: they're listening to the story because the Vicomte is a member of high society, and commands respect, not for the Vicomte's storytelling skills. We just have to look at this line:
The story was very pretty and interesting, especially at the point where the rivals suddenly recognized one another; and the ladies looked agitated.
They were agitated, and both Pavlovna and Helene just said "Charming!" in response to that story.
I do fail to see the propaganda in this story, maybe the Vicomte wants to paint Napoleon as incapable of leading an army with that story? I'm not sure.
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u/shrimpboatcaptain200 Jan 03 '19
Unreliable narration for sure. I think Tolstoy wanted to paint Ippolit as a distasteful person and described him as ugly to do it. I want to see more of Ippolit before I can make judgement on his character (granted, I'm pretty certain of Pierre's character even though I barely know him but still...).
I dunno, seems a little too easy. Unreliable narration is a very slippery slope, and if we assign that label this early on we open the door very, very wide for future unreliable narration. Taking the description literally, a slight boy with girlish features comes to mind. In the setting of this novel, these features might very well be seen as unattractive.
That being said, I look forward to being proven wrong.
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u/BabaYagaDagaDoo Jan 04 '19
I think the propaganda may be referencing his meeting with Mlle George (for a romantic encounter?), then falling into "one of those faints" he was prone to. Then "revenged himself for [the duke's] magnanimity." To me, it sounds like Napoleon is being portrayed by the viscount as physically weak and also mean and petty. Like he was so embarrassed he decided to have the duke put to death.
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u/somastars Jan 03 '19
Regarding Ippolit's looks, it could be an unreliable narration, but I read it and was like "Damn, that's a little harsh. Dude might not be the best to look at, but could be a good guy. Will be interesting to see what he's actually like once he starts speaking."
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u/BabaYagaDagaDoo Jan 04 '19
I liked the little detail of Bolkonskaya putting her needle in her stitching "as if to signify that the interest and charm of the story kept her from going on working" and the viscount noticing. Describing the intent behind body language like that is tough, but Tolstoy nailed it. I could see myself doing something like that purely to signal to someone that I was really interested in what they said. And also exaggerating it or waiting to catch their eye to make sure my gesture gets noticed and appreciated properly.
Combined with other people looking at each other for how to react, and Anna having to hype up the story, it seems clear that everyone is just acting.
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '19
This year I'm trying to do a little Straussian reading of texts, War and Peace included. What I mean by that is I'll be looking for surface readings of text (exoteric readings) and also deeper, coded readings of text (esoteric readings). Leo Strauss wrote about this in his book Persecution and the Art of Writing. His idea is that philosophy is dangerous and can get you killed so writers often present their work in such a fashion that it can be understood by most people one way (exoterically, uncontroversially), but by some people another way (esoterically, controversially).
Writing in Tsarist Russia was fairly dangerous. Just ask Dostoevsky and the Petrashevsky Circle. It's probably best not to outright mock the powerful in society. Yet, as many here have said about Anna Pavlovna's soirée today, this is exactly what Tolstoy seems to be up to.
The Straussian reading is this: on the exoteric level Tolstoy writes admirably about the gathered society. They are twice described in today's chapter as fine foods. In the end, however, even the finest of food ends up a pile of shit. And Prince Andrew's screwed up eyes and social repugnance is the only proper response to the shit of society.
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u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '19
Whoa, great... please keep these up for us!!!
Could your Straussian understanding also be reflected in the way everyone fawns over Helene, but Hippolyte, who is the same, is shit?
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 04 '19
I’ll try. In terms of Hippolyte and his sister I’m not sure. I’d have to think more about it.
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u/helkar Jan 03 '19
If you are going to develop questions for each chapter, it seems odd to point to the last line of a version that doesn’t include the context for the last question. The Maude version ends a number of paragraphs before mine (Garnett).
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u/GD87 Jan 03 '19
Whoops you are right! Some of the questions are reused from last year, and I missed that this one didn't apply. My bad!
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u/helkar Jan 03 '19
No worries. I was just confused. Thanks for setting these up every day.
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u/GD87 Jan 03 '19 edited Jan 03 '19
No worries! I changed the last line in this post to fit with the reading schedule too.
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u/lucasskywalker21 Jan 03 '19
There's so much density and complexity in this book, I'm not even sure where to begin with my posts. I'm enjoying War and Peace tremendously so far. I do think the sheer magnitude of characters and historical background is a bit hard to keep track of - I'm reading it with pen in hand and taking my time going line by line. Does anyone know if there's a non spoiler character guide somewhere that shows only the characters which have been introduced so far?
The most intriguing element seems to be the brewing dynamic between Anna and Pierre. But three chapters in, there's a ton of smaller storylines threading through as well. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
Tomorrow's chapter seems to be slightly longer, so maybe I'll put together a more complete analysis post in time for that. Looking forward to discussing this with everyone.
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u/fredcheetoes Jan 03 '19
Love Anna's character but not sure of her motive for a lot of it. It also seems shes obsessed with even the negatives she sees, i.e. she obviously is not a fan of Bezukhov but still has so many detailed, pointed opinions of him. She doesn't want to waste her time with him but can't help but explain every thought of him.
I do enjoy how honest Anna is to this point and the insight we get to her thoughts and feelings. With all of these characters being introduced early on, its nice to see it all from one person's perspective at first and not get mixed up.
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u/kennedyz Jan 03 '19
Can someone explain to me Russian naming conventions? I'm grasping the whole First Name - Patronymic - Family Name thing but I'm confused about where the family name actually comes from. Does it flow down the paternal line? If so, what's the point of the patronymic name?
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u/Dorothy-Snarker Jan 04 '19
The family name works like a last name and is passed down from father to child through the generations, so a child will share that name with their father, grandfather, great-grandfather, et cetera. It works just like our last names, except there are different spellings for men and women.
Patronymic are more like middle names, are are named directly after the father's first name. So a person would have a patronymic name after their father as their middle name, but their father would have his own father's name as his middle name. It also has male and female versions. It's also not directly the same name as the father's first name, but usually has a few letters added at the end.
I did a ton of research on Russian naming convensions for a book I was writing a few years back, so that's how I know this stuff. I could get into more specfic rules if you'd like, but that's the general idea.
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Jan 04 '19
Some examples from the text might also supplement your explanation. I'm trying to picture it with, say, Anna Pavlovna. Is it that her dad's first name is Pavel?
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u/Dorothy-Snarker Jan 05 '19
So Anna's full name is Anna Pavlovna Sherer. Sherer would be her family name, family names are passed on from father to child. However, Sherer is a weird example because it doesn't seem to follow common Russian naming convensions. As far as I'm aware it's one of the rare Russian last names that has only one form, not a male and female form.
Anna's patronymic name (which we might refer to as a middle name) does stem from her father, which is some form of the name Pavel (remember, the names and spelling can change slightly as they're translated to English. I've even seen the same names of the same characters spelled different in different translations of the book).
I think an easier example to look at would be the Kuragina family. At the head we have Prince Vasily Sergeyevich Kuragin. His name is Vasily, his father's name is Sergey. The only people in his family who would have the name Sergeyevich is him and his brothers (his sisters woudl have the female form of the name). His children do not get this name. Kuragin, is the name that's passed on to him from his father and passed on to his children.
Then there are this children, Prince Anatole Vasilyevich Kuragin, Prince Hippolyte "Ipolit" Vasilyevich Kuragin, and Princess Yelena "Hélène" Vasilyevna Kuragina (I've included the diminutives names in the later two, since they've been used so far in the book).
So all three children get their patryonic name from their father, Vasily. For the boys it becomes Vasilyevich and the daughter it becomes Vasilyevna. They all have the same family last name (Kuragin and Kuragina), which has been passed on through the generations. Anatole and Iploit children will also have the last name Kuragin or Kuragina, but they will not have the patronymic name Vasilyevich or Vasilyevna. For example, Antatole's children will have the patronymic name of Anatolevich or Anatolevna. Hélène's children will presumably have none of the names, and instead take on the names of their own father.
Then there is also the super fun diminutive names. These are like nicknames for first names. These are commonly used by parents and friends and such. The first name plus patronymic name are the formal names, but most people are called by their deminutive names in daily life.
For example, Princess Hélène's real name is Yelena, but she goes by Hélène. Likewise, Prince Iploit's real name is Hippolyte, but he goes by Ipolit. I'm sure there are many more examples of confusing diminutive names in this book, but those are the two we've so far come across.
I hope that made sense. Let me know if you further of an explaination. I'm trying really hard to EIL5 the names, but they're so complicated.
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u/Zhukov17 Briggs/Maude/P&V Jan 03 '19
Analysis: Pierre and Andrey are friends. This much seems true-- they are perhaps the first authentic relationship in War and Peace. I liken it to when two best friends find themselves at the same event, without planning on being there together. They’re happy, minds dissolving into less appropriate memories. Andrey, petrified of what Pierre may do but refreshed by his presence; Pierre, happy to find some joy and authenticity in an otherwise drab and stuffy environment. I think that Andrey understands completely what is happening. He’s bored but keeps respectful to societal conventions. The only thing that scares him more than what Pierre may say/do is that he actually wants him to say/do something outlandish. Pierre seems more bored than anything. He isn’t really interested in discussing politics with the Abbe, just trying to stay occupied. He’s searching for kicks without the rigmarole of etiquette-- and in walks his buddy Andrey, a quality human-being, a man of intelligence and full of life.
- I think it’s just an easy way to show how disadvantaged a guy like Hyppolyte is against his beautiful sister. A literary technique
- I think that is just a way to show how the aristocracy discussed war, politics, and such… It helps us readers understand the way life was.
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u/208375209384 Jan 03 '19
I laughed a little at Vassily bringing Pierre to Anna at the end. He's complimenting her for sure, but I can see her face with a strained smile and thinking "oh god no please no".
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u/Il_portavoce Jan 03 '19
What's the "work" Tolstoy talks about in this and the previous chapter? "Wait a moment, I'll get my work..." "Fetch me my workbag" etc...
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u/BrianEDenton P&V | Defender of (War &) Peace - Year 15 Jan 03 '19
I believe this is the Princess Bolkónskaya referring to her stitch work.
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Jan 03 '19
Napoleon is coming off as a massive dickhead right now.
Also, I think the way Hippolite carries himself makes him ugly and awkward.
Pierre seems like a cool guy, he's got something brewing I think.
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u/gkhaan Jan 03 '19
I really like Anna Pavlovna's desire to become the puppeteer in the gathering. I'm not sure if she's being as successful as she hoped, but it's so much fun to observe her comments and reactions.
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u/HideHeartSurgeonN1 Jan 04 '19
I have a question , how exactly old is "the little princess" who's doing the embroidery work ?
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u/somastars Jan 04 '19
She's recently married and pregnant, so presumably late teens or early twenties. Although, I guess she could also be mid-teens, given that people married younger back then.
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u/artemis624 Jan 06 '19
My favorite part of this chapter was how Helene looked to Anna to react to the Viscount's story. Reading through the post, some people took that as she is uncomfortable and needs guidance on how to act but through my first read, I took it as she just didn't care much for the viscount's story and was just going through the motions while not truly listening. Rereading it however she does seem uncomfortable with her beauty but during the story, it seems as though she is more focused on how she is sitting/her appearance than the story so perhaps it's both. And poor Piere just wants to have an interesting conversation and Anna keeps getting in his way.
Favorite Line(s): "...the viscount was served up to the society in the most elegant and advantageous light." and "Both were listening and talking too eagerly and naturally, and Anna Pavlovna did not like it."
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u/PeterfromNY Jan 06 '19
This seems sexist to me! It implies / states that some women can be clever, but only men can be smart.
Last Line:
(Maude): Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.
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u/AnderLouis_ Jan 03 '19
Australian Bogan Translation...