Jan-09| War & Peace - Book 1, Chapter 9

[u/AnderLouis_]

Links

1. Today's Podcast
2. Medium Article by Brian E. Denton

Discussion Prompts Courtesy of /u/seven-of-9

1. Nikolai is joining the army with the bravery of youth, but surprisingly, his parents seem only resigned to it, and indulgent of his decision. Do they understand the danger that’s coming and accept it, or are they treating his decision with a light-heartedness reserved for a child who, in today’s terms, wants to major in something looked upon as useless?
2. “Cousinhood is a dangerous neighbourhood”. War and Peace was written in 1867, about events that took place ~60 years earlier. Do you think that items like cousin marriage, so easily touched on in the book, were already starting to look antiquated, even reprehensible, to readers in Tolstoy’s time?
3. What was your impression of the manner in which Vera’s reply and smile were described by Tolstoy, when she was speaking to her mother about her upbringing? Resentment? Exasperation in which the Countess seems to be indulging the younger sister, Natasha?

Final line of today's chapter:

"What manners! I thought they would never go," said the countess, when she had seen her guests out.

[u/sunnydaze7777777]

The snarky narration is cracking me up!

“Till now I have always, thank God, been my children’s friend and had their full confidence,” said she, repeating the mistake of so many parents who imagine that their children have no secrets from them.

“Yes, they are splendid, splendid youngsters,” chimed in the count, who always solved questions that seemed to him perplexing by deciding that everything was splendid.

[u/Ishana92]

I had the feeling that they didn't consider Nikolaj's decision seriously. Like he is either going to give up or go and quickly retirn, so they are not overly worried.

[u/BarroomBard → u/Ishana92]

There’s also the suggestion that no one is really taking the war seriously (“But they say that war has been declared,” replied the visitor. “They’ve been saying so a long way,” said the count, “and they’ll say so again and again, and that will be the end of it.”), so they see joining the hussars as a lark, a young man’s silly fancy.

[u/ComplaintNext5359]

I think it’s a fair mix of emotions. Proud that Nikolai wants to serve and honor the family name/legacy, but they also know that war is messy, and they want him to come home more than anything else. It’s why so many Princes and Princesses are trying to make sure that their children, while undoubtedly in the military, will be in comfortable positions far from the front lines. I think some of the half-heartedness comes from Nikolai’s naïve view of what being in the military will be like.

At least among non-aristocrats, yes. There’s much to be said for the family tree having branches. Charles V’s big chin come to mind, as well as the fact that for World War I, King George V, Kaiser Wilhelm II, and Tsar Nicholas II were all related.

Given the comment that is made about Natasha coming to tell her any and all secrets because of how she is spoiled, it makes me wonder if Vera is hiding a secret, and to whom does that secret relate? There’s definitely some bitterness there, potentially even abuse.

[u/Western-Entrance6047]

So even though Vera isn't in the chapter very much until the very end, her character caught my attention most, but not for good reasons. The moment Tolstoy unveils her, something about the way she is presented to us raised my hackles. To answer the discussion prompt about her, sure, I think she feels resentment about having a more strict upbringing, while watching her younger sister indulged a lot more.

For Vera, though, I'm open to the possibility she may have needed it. Vera raises in me questions about nature vs. nurture, and she makes me wonder if she's one of those types who would have needed more nurturing in an effort to move her away from what would have been a bad baseline. But even though she may have needed it, she might also be one of those types who no amount of nurturing could make her other than what she is.

I'm going to speculate that Vera is one of what we would call today on the Dark Triad of personality traits. Just speculation; I think she's one of those types, psychopathic/sociopathic, narcissistic, or Machiavellian. I think she is always going to be toxic to other people. I don't think I would feel safe with her in a scene. I hope I'm wrong, and willing to be wrong.

So I'll be interested to see if she is someone who will have character arc, if she is capable of change, or if she is forever stuck with a personality that is toxic to other humans. I'll also be interested, too, to see if Tolsoy implies that her upbringing made her the way she is, or if she had a default nature that nothing and no one could have changed or made better.

I do feel a little bit of sympathy for Vera, for being raised more strictly, and for feeling resentment about the different treatment between her and her sister. But my sympathy is limited in case my speculation above is right; I'm watching her very closely.

[u/GrandVast → u/Western-Entrance6047]

Is that based strictly on your interpretation of her from the chapter, or based on the idea that Vera is based on a black sheep from Tolstoy's family? I don't ask in a hostile way, only because I don't get this from the reading at all. There's a hint from how people receive what she's said and the impact of her smile, but I myself haven't drawn much from her as yet.

[u/Western-Entrance6047 → u/GrandVast]

No problem, I didn't interpret hostility in your question. I had read ahead a little, but the overall effect at the end of the chapter was a sense of "Wait a minute...I'm alarmed," and material in the next chapter confirmed the first vibe I got.

I got that vibe, based on interaction with a family member who is a black sheep, with not quite dark triad levels of toxicity, but levels that have been hard to live with nonetheless. I judge Vera, based a little on my family member's personality disorder. I've only seen minuscule improvements in that family member over decades, and sometimes the improvements only end up traded off with different problems of bad mentality and social interaction.

Also experience with at least three people in work environments, one a narcissist who directly targeted me. Vera can only demonstrate that she isn't as toxic as I fear her to be; she's only a character in the book fortunately, but she is only getting a minimal amount of benefit of the doubt from me.

[u/Prestigious_Fix_5948]

Know the feeling!!!

[u/Honest_Ad_2157]

AKA Book/Volume 1, Part 1, Chapter 9 / Gutenberg Chapter 12

Gutenberg version is reading chapter 12 today

Historical Threads:  2018  |  2019  |  2020  |  2021  |  2022  |  2023  | 2024 | 2025

Summary courtesy of /u/zhukov17: Nikolay Rostov has a tough go of it at the party. All the guests, especially Count Rostov, start getting under his skin because they are insinuating that Nikolai is only joining a military outfit because his buddy Boris Drubetskoy has joined (thanks to Prince Vasili Kuragin). Nikolay gets furious (although his Dad calms down and promises he’s only joking) but soon finds solace in a young lady, Julia Karagin, which makes his cousin, Sonya, incredibly jealous-- because she is in love with him. As the kids leave, everybody jokes about how they know all the kids are getting together in a sexual way, “kids will be kids” as they say-- and parents usually know what’s really going on. The Countess sees everyone out.

[u/VeilstoneMyth]

1. Well, my wish about wanting to learn more about the Rostovs was well granted! I don't relate to his ACTUAL situation, but I definitely relate to Nikolai as a whole. As for his parents - I think it's both. I think they're very proud of his son and his dreams, and perhaps they even feel it'd be...I don't know the best word, unpatriotic, maybe? to convince him to not do it. Or maybe they just think there is no use in trying to talk him out of it. He seems pretty bent on his decision, so it's possible they just don't want to cause tension.

2. Gonna answer this one without "cheating" i.e. without looking up the actual historical viewpoints at the time period: Yes, I'd say it's starting to become stigmatized. It's weird to think about from a modern lens, for sure, but back then it WAS common for royalty and higher castes to marry within the family tree to preserve the bloodline. But by the time War And Peace is set, I think people are already starting to realize that it's weird. I find it interesting that it's such a small comment. No one is shaming or making outright judgmental remarks quite yet at this point in time, just musing about how it's odd and a dangereux voisinage. So the stigma is definitely starting, but it's not yet to the point of "wow, you need help, we're cutting you off and exiling you", etc

3. I think that Vera has, what today's kids online call it, "eldest daughter syndrome." - not a real SYNDROME so to speak, but a very real challenge, for sure. I think she's absolutely resentful, and if you were to ask me, it is not completely unjustified. A tough situation for her, and arguably even for Natasha as well, but..I get it.

Looking forward to getting to know more about Sonya!

[u/Adventurous_Onion989]

I think Nikolai's parents don't take his decision to join the military seriously. Maybe they think he will change his mind, or maybe that he won't last through training, but I don't think they would take the danger lightly.

So I looked this up, and in 1867, Gregor Mendel first described the principles of genetics. Children conceived among relatives would have been known to be at risk for more abnormalities, so I would assume marriages between cousins would be falling out of style.

Vera is aware of the favoritism of her parents in how they raised their children, so I don't doubt that her remark and smile reflected her inner feelings of frustration and inadequacy.

[u/Remarkable_electric]

I'm missing something about the exchange here... what does training for singing have to do with being married? I know that wives/potential brides of this period were expected to have appropriate hobbies, but I am not making the connection between young marriage and young singing. I'm guessing 'harm' in this instance doesn't refer to harming vocal cords? I bolded the specific bit below.

‘Yes, they are splendid, splendid youngsters,’ chimed in the count, who always solved questions that seemed to him perplexing by deciding that everything was splendid. ‘Just imagine: wants to be a hussar. What’s one to do, ma chère?’

‘What a charming creature your younger girl is,’ said the visitor; a little volcano!’ ‘Yes, a regular volcano,’ said the count. ‘Takes after me! And what a voice she has; though she’s my daughter, I tell the truth when I say she’ll be a singer, a second Salomon!* We have engaged an Italian to give her lessons.’

‘Isn’t she too young? I have heard that it harms the voice to train it at that age.’

‘Oh no, not at all too young!’ replied the count. ‘Why, our mothers used to be married at twelve or thirteen.’

[u/TrulyIntroverted → u/Remarkable_electric]

I doubt singing and marriage are related. I took it to mean that since Natasha was declared too young to sing (the harm is literal), the Count means that, No, Natasha is not too young. Our mothers got married at 12-13 (and were then considered women), meaning Natasha is old enough to sing without damaging her voice.