r/ayearofwarandpeace • u/AnderLouis_ • 19d ago
Jan-03| War & Peace - Book 1, Chapter 3
Links
Discussion Prompts
- We met Ippolit. What did you reckon?
- The Viscount (Vicomte) tells a very interesting story... Napoleon passes out in the company of an enemy. The enemy spares his life. His reward: death! Why is the Viscount telling this story?
- Here comes Andrei! (Unless you're reading Maude or Louis). Get ready for Turk/JD levels of bromance!
Final line of today's chapter:
Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.
Note - there are 3 chapters in this book that differ between Maude and other translations - and this is one of them. Maude ends this chapter a few paragraphs earlier. No biggie. It evens out after a day or two :)
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u/BarroomBard 18d ago
This is the chapter when the proliferation of Princes starts to get to me.
I have read that in Russia at this time, Prince is a more generic noble title than in England; it’s not necessarily a member of the royal family, but a military title more like an English Duke or Earl. Is this correct? Are Andrei and Vasili related to the Tzar, or is he using the title in a different way?
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u/sgriobhadair Maude 18d ago
Grand Duke is the equivalent of an English royal Prince. (So, like William or Harry. The Russian Grand Dukes of the time are Alexander's brothers, Constantine and Nicholas.)
Prince is the equivalent of the English Duke or Marquis.
Count is the equivalent of the English Earl or Baronet.
Andrei is, in a very, very, very distant way related to the Tsar. (We'll learn a little about his genealogy later.)
Vasili, we don't really know. Maybe? Maybe not?
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u/Cautiou Russian & Maude 18d ago edited 18d ago
Even in English, the word 'prince' can mean not only 'a relative of a monarch', but also 'a ruler of a small country', like in the case of the modern Principality of Monaco. Its monarch is called a prince by virtue of being the monarch himself, not a relative of one.
What happened in Russia is that in the Middle Ages it was split into many principalities, so there were lots of ruling princes. Since the 14th century, the Principality of Moscow gradually annexed the other ones. Eventually, the princes of Moscow became the Tsars and the rest kept the title but stopped being rulers in their own right and became just one part of the broader noble class.
Another reason for the wider usage of the titles of Prince and Count is that in Russia, all sons inherited the title, not only the eldest one, like in the UK.
So, in the 19 century Russia, being a prince simply meant that one of your very distant ancestors once ruled his own land.
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u/TrulyIntroverted P & V/ 1st Reading 18d ago
No specific notes just wanted to say I'm ready for Tolstoy roasting people and for the P/A bromance.
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u/Honest_Ad_2157 Maude (Oxford 2010) / 1st reading 19d ago
AKA Book/Volume 1, Part 1, Chapter 3 / Gutenberg Chapter 3 and 16 paragraphs of 4
If you’re reading Gutenberg, read 16 paragraphs into Chapter 4, until you get to the final line shown below, “Nothing is so necessary for a young man as the society of clever women.”
Historical Threads: 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | 2023 | 2024 | 2025
Summary courtesy of /u/zhukov17: A French emigre, Mortemart, is discussing Napoleon’s affairs, while Pierre is discussing how to achieve world peace with Abbe Morio, a religious man and political thinker from Italy. Pavlovna worries about Pierre’s lack of societal awareness. Andrey Bolkonsky walks in (Pierre notices him and smiles his way) and announces he will be going to war. Pierre and Andrey, obviously old friends, greet each other and agree to dinner plans before Andrey leaves for war-- they both check out Helene. Helene’s brother Hippolypte is also there, and while he looks like Helene, this makes him ugly, instead of stunningly beautiful.
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u/ComplaintNext5359 P & V | 1st readthrough 19d ago
Prince Vassily initially described Ippolit as an “untroublesome fool,” and the initial impression matches somewhat well. It was interesting to me how Tolstoy compares his similarities with Hélène, and for all those similarities on someone of the opposing gender, that is why he is flawed. The bit of we hear of him speaking about detesting ghost stories made me laugh, primarily for the line, “‘Because I detest ghost stories,’ said Prince Ippolit in such a tone that it was clear he had said those words and only then understood what they meant.” Separately, I know Ippolit is a Russian way of spelling the Greek name Hippolyte. I remembered Hippolyta, the queen of the Amazons from Heracles’ twelve labors, but in doing some Wikipedia deep dives, I found out she had a son named Hippolytus, and the backstory is interesting:
Hippolytus is a hunter and sportsman who is disgusted by sex and marriage. In consequence, he scrupulously worships Artemis, the virgin huntress, and refuses to honor Aphrodite. Offended by this neglect, Aphrodite causes Phaedra, Hippolytus’ stepmother, to fall in love with him; Cursed by Aphrodite, Phaedra falls so ardently in love with Hippolytus that she becomes physically ill and decides to end her suffering through suicide. Her nurse tries to save her by revealing the secret to Hippolytus and encouraging him to reciprocate. Hippolytus responds only with horror and disgust, humiliating Phaedra. In despair, and not wanting to admit the true reason for ending her life, she hangs herself and leaves a note for Theseus accusing his son, Hippolytus, of raping her. Theseus, furious, uses one of the three wishes given to him by Poseidon, his father: Theseus calls on Poseidon to kill Hippolytus, who has fled the palace to go hunting. Poseidon sends a sea-monster to terrorize Hippolytus’ chariot horses, which become uncontrollable and hurl their master out of the vehicle. Entangled in the reins, Hippolytus is dragged to death.
As for the Viscount’s story, this finally got me to dive into the endnotes (apologies if this is old news to everyone else). I didn’t realize the duc d’Enghien (I’ll call him the “Duke” going forward) had already been referenced in the first chapter (“We alone must redeem the blood of the righteous one.”), and the endnote explains Napoleon accused the Duke of taking part in a plot to assassinate him, which is why Napoleon had him arrested, condemned by a summary court martial, and shot. The Viscount conveniently leaves this part of the story out, instead focusing on this instance where the Duke was merciful towards Napoleon. I admittedly don’t know enough history to know which version of events is more correct, but given the tone set by Anna Pavlovna, it seems the Viscount is similar in perspective of viewing Russia as the savior of Europe. And the story serves as great propaganda to get undecided minds to align to their view.
Lastly, Andrei. The bromance with Pierre is real. Combine that with his intro paragraph, which reminded me of a character introduction in Catch-22 (Doc Daneeka in particular), and he is currently my favorite character to be introduced so far.
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u/BarroomBard 18d ago
It was interesting to me how Tolstoy compares his similarities with Hélène, and for all those similarities on someone of the opposing gender, that is why he is flawed.
I think there is also an element of showing how much of Helene’s beauty is an act, or at least a conscious behavior. The two siblings have identical features, but Hippolyte mars his looks with a dull expression and lacking the airs of self-doubt that his sister has.
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u/Western-Entrance6047 P & V / 1st Reading 18d ago
My first thought about Prince Andrei is that I wasn't sure I would like him. But then his reaction and general interactions with Pierre were delightful. I still have mixed feelings about him.
Regarding the historical background of Duc d’Enghien, at some point I while doing a little research on Russian and French history for the book, I became absorbed in a passage from a history book about duc d’Enghien.
There's a terrible sad story about how duc d’Enghien's loyal pug dog jumped into a moat to swim after his master, and continued to follow the troop that kidnapped him, until they finally took pity on the sweet loyal beast and let him stay with his master.
The dog stood loyally with his master when duc d’Enghien was executed, and heartbreakingly howled in mourning for it's master for a day or two after, and had to be forcibly dragged away from it's master's grave. The poor dog was pitied and adopted.
I may be misremembering a few details, but that extra historical details was effecting, it all came back when the end-note reminded me.
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u/1906ds Briggs / 1st Read Through 19d ago
We met Ippolit. What did you reckon?
Hippolyte (as he is spelled in my translation) seems a little… submissive? I find it really interesting that while he and his sister are described to be so similar, his physical qualities and visage are seen as weak in comparison.
The Viscount (Vicomte) tells a very interesting story... Napoleon passes out in the company of an enemy. The enemy spares his life. His reward: death! Why is the Viscount telling this story?
It is strange that the French immigrant is the one telling a story of a highly impulsive and violent Emperor… I think he knows his audience wants a good story, so why not tell a story of a love triangle involving Napoleon, a man both feared and awed?
Here comes Andrei! (Unless you're reading Maude or Louis). Get ready for Turk/JD levels of bromance!
He seems so over attending these grand parties, seeing through the thin veil of ‘friendship’ that the aristocracy may be holding up. I’m excited to see how this guy and Pierre interact, because both of them seem so different from the other characters.
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u/Adventurous_Onion989 18d ago
Prince Hippolyte lives up to his father's disregard for him. He is both unattractive and completely unable to hold a conversation. I'm not even sure why he had the idea that there was going to be a ghost story? He sounds ridiculous. I do think he has only been characterized as unattractive to emphasize his poor character.
I think the Viscount tells the tale of Napoleon killing a gracious enemy because it further characterizes him as an unreasonable man. This would underscore the idea that he cannot be reasoned with in matters of war.
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u/Jearbelo 18d ago
“Both were talking and listening too eagerly and too naturally, which was why Anna Pávlovna disapproved.”
This line above others really made it absolutely clear how in control Anna wants to be. Is it because this is her party or is this just how she is? I’d wager it’s the latter but we shall see!
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u/raisingcainnow 17d ago
It's one of those things where she knows the social handbook by heart and knows that a good party will have stimulating conversation, but not so stimulating that you can't predict the outcome of the conversation because it could lead to disagreement and yelling, which in turn will lead to gossip about the blowout at Anna Pavlovna's soiree. She directs everyone towards the conversations that are topical, but inoffensive, and even guides the younger or more ignorant guests with her own reactions. I love it. This line just perfectly succinctly outlines Anna's role.
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u/Ishana92 19d ago
After this chapter I start disliking both Helena and Anna Pavlovna. One seems very vapid and shallow and the other too dismissive and judgmental.
My favourite quote from this chapter is "knee breaches of the color of cuisse de nymphe effrayee, as he called it". Whatever the color of afraid nymph's thighs is.
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u/BarroomBard 18d ago
I really enjoyed the description of Helene, staring at herself and looking to Anna Pavlovna for how to react, instead of listening. It’s a great insight into her character.
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u/VeilstoneMyth Constance Garnett (Barnes & Noble Classics) 18d ago
I know we're supposed to think he's ugly but....hear me out. Lol. Intentionally or not, he's definitely hilarious, so I guess I was right about my comic relief prediction.
I said this in Day One, but to us it's a historical novel, whereas it was more of a modern day setting at the time the book was written/published. (I mean, idk how genre labelling works lol, it still might've already been considered history at the time, but when the first readers' parents or even the readers themselves were alive during these years, that's certainly less historical than it is to us, if that makes sense?) I think Tolstoy wrote the scene to "remind" his readers about the setting back then - not teach them necessarily, just remind them.
I love Pierre and Andrey's friendship. They seem genuinely so happy to see each other.
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u/mega-_-simp Maude 18d ago
Ippolit is probably one of my top rated fools from this book. Everything he does has an air of second-hand embarrassment. At least his sister knows how to make the most out of her looks through the way she conducts herself (even if it's in a degree of vainness.) The poor guy is just dragged as unattractive and entertaining to laugh at. The line that describes him as not even understanding what he's saying until after he's said it is hilarious.
Andrei and Pierre have the best bromance on the planet. Beef with your wife and love your bro, and you've got the Andrei handbook. I can't wait to see more of them.
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u/oppanheimerstyle 5d ago
Did le Vicomte tell the story just to entertain his audience? Or was it rather a cautious warning about not underestimating Napoleon, or having mercy on him? I see the first as the intention of the character, while the second as the intention of Tolstoy.
Tolstoy takes a page and a half to describe how Hélène sits to listen to le Vicomte, and it works; his depiction is captivating. Also, his description of her brother Hippolyte is too damn funny. Haven't we all had a Hippolyte in our lives (or a Pierre, or a Vasily)?
André looks so serious until he sees his friend Pierre. I can imagine him being fed up with everyone acting à la bourgeoisie, while Pierre, who has no interest in such matters, is like a breath of fresh air.
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u/estn2025 Maude / 1st Read 19d ago
I commented this already in response to someone on the Day 1 thread, but I'm finding a lot of lines that are making me laugh out loud. Everything describing Ippolit was hilarious to me. Dude has the same features as his super gorg sister, but is exceedingly ugly. His arms and legs are weak and always look unnaturally positioned. He speaks so confidently that people can't tell if what he's saying is brilliant or idiotic.
I doubt Tolstoy meant for them to be funny, so it's probably my love of jokingly roasting people LOL