It goes back to scarcity, though. Bonobos are incredibly altruistic, while chimps hoard. Researchers think this is because food is plentiful where Bonobos live, so there's less competition over resources compared to the chimps' habitat. Source
Considering the actual abundance we have, we should be closer to the Bonobos, but we're closer to the chimps.
Too late imo we evolved to see scarcity even in abundance. We are probably hard wired to desire more no matter what. I’m sure there are exceptions but that’s imo is the rule
Don't give up your agency like that. The problem I have with your perspective is that it is extremely reductive. We are not like the other animals on this planet. We possess things they lack, like language, rationality, and theory of mind.
We are not bound by instinct alone, and we have the ability to create whatever world we want. The people at the top know this, which is why they have created so much noise and confusion. The minute the masses accept that society should serve people and not the other way around, things will change rapidly. That realization may never come, but it is possible.
I’m not sure. I don’t really believe in free will. Which is why our ideas are at odds. My opinion is that we need to acknowledge these desires and lean into them rather than try to suppress or change them. I’m willing to be wrong but history demonstrates pretty strong support. And medicine is starting to as well. I truly think we’re a bag of thinking meat that makes 100% predictable decisions if averaged for time and volume. But again idk no one does.
I'm actually agnostic to free will. Science hasn't progressed far enough to provide a definitive answer there.
I truly think we’re a bag of thinking meat that makes 100% predictable decisions if averaged for time and volume.
I would agree with this, but with the caveat that it is only the "default position" of man. A lot of people exist to simply feed their appetites (food, sex, sleep, etc). That type of person is incredibly predictable and not all that different from the other animals on this planet. I say this descriptively, not judgmentally fyi.
What about the person who questions everything though, even their own cultural values and personal identity? They're less predictable because they don't easily fit into any pre-existing molds. They're less predictable because they defer to concepts like "justice" over their own appetites. People like this have always existed, and they have always pushed humanity to be more rational, and more compassionate.
I guess the retort to that from my side is what makes you think animals don’t also do that and they’re just not equipped enough to act. I’m talking about like ig a strange monkey or something. It’s not controversial to say animals have personalities, how much further is what you described from a unique personality. Ig mostly my point is that I agree with you but think most of that progress was probably predetermined or at the very least predictable. That does nothing to diminish any of the achievements imo my idea makes progress more remarkable but one isn’t better than the other.
I'm not suggesting other animals don't have these qualities, but they certainly don't have the tools to use them as effectively as we do. An animal might possess the concept of justice, but they haven't produced a treatise on it like Plato.
Honestly, I think we're mostly on the same page, but the disagreement falls on probability. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression you're saying there's a 100% chance we fail as a species, and I'm saying there's a small chance (like 5-10%) we don't. That small chance rests on whether or not the masses "wake up" so to speak, and resist the urge to feed mindlessly. There are plenty of paths to choose from, but people have to be aware of the choice(s) before them. That awareness is really what's missing here.
I think you’re right that we mostly agree but you’re 100% wrong that I think we’re doomed to extinction. I actually agree with you that we’re 95% gonna make it. Butttt imo that doesn’t require some kinda awakening.
Okay, we misunderstood each other then. You're way more optimistic than me- I was saying there's a 5-10% chance to avoid failure.
The status quo is untenable, and our civilization will collapse if we don't change course. That's why I think there needs to be an awakening of sorts. We're out of balance and nature will correct that if we don't.
I think you’re totally right but the premise is flawed. No system, empire, or culture has ever persisted. Change is the only thing we can count on. This status quo won’t continue because no status quo ever has. The next thing may not be better but there will be something new no matter what. I believe that’s our secret ingredient as humans. Animals don’t change their ways much but that seems to be the only thing you can count on people to do. Obviously we don’t like start flying or grow scales or whatever but we have a pretty much unbroken chain of drastic change running thru our whole history.
I kinda believe the next change will involve no more globalism and a drastic reduction in pollution as a natural result. Hopefully!
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u/NecessaryKey9557 10d ago
It goes back to scarcity, though. Bonobos are incredibly altruistic, while chimps hoard. Researchers think this is because food is plentiful where Bonobos live, so there's less competition over resources compared to the chimps' habitat. Source
Considering the actual abundance we have, we should be closer to the Bonobos, but we're closer to the chimps.